Ralt RT 2

Picking up on this subject from another thread (Brabhams) dereklola posts that he has some chassis histories. I believe there were 4 originally made, 3 for Tolemans in 79, then a further 1 for Schafer in 1980. They were super looking cars, and very quick, by all accounts the Tolemans in 1980 were carbon copies.

IIRC 2 of the 79 cars went to the US for CanAm, the other to ZA for Atlantic. Don't know what happened to the Schafer car though, nor the one described as an RT2 entered for Stanley in early 81 F2 at Silverstone. Any details dereklola/Jeremy/Chris.

Despite having been involved in a hands-on, well... pencil-on way (I drew one incarnation of the inner tub skins) I can't remember how many RT2s were built. According to the Mike Lawrence book (which Ron Tauranac reckons is the definitive record of his work) there were five, although it implies that they all went to Toleman. I wouldn't be surprised if Bert Schafer bought one though - he was a prolific Ralt customer at the time (and a thoroughly nice guy as well).

Thx guys - but I kick myself for writing too soon - I was going to reference a website that I've done based on what I've found out over the last couple of years. But when I checked it it needs some editing.

Be patient I'll get back to you in couple of days.

In summary though there appear to be six "real" RT2 - 3 for Toleman in 1979 (of which two are now in the US and the other scrapped in South Africa), one came straight to the US for CanAm in 1980 (mine), one went to Germany in 1981 and is still there and a sixth one has appeared with a later serial number. This last one appears to be the most "original" - still in Hart F2 form.

But serial number plates on Ralt seem to be largely missing. My two Ralts (I also have an RT4) had plates but literally you can flip them off with a coin or screwdriver. And if you want to just as easily glue them back on.

Quite possibly Ralt made extra tubs. Certainly Marc Bahner in California has made a lot of RT4 and RT5 replacement tubs for SCCA racing. And then there are the T850's - I've never seen one but I understand they are basically identical.

Then there were the Lant copies from South Africa based on the RT2 that went there.I've heard of one of these in Ireland and one still in South Africa.

And finally there are the Lola T850's which apparently Toleman commissioned.

The 1980 Toleman cars are of similar design but significantly in detail.

Be patient and I'll finsh up my website - then fire away at me!

Derek

That should have read -
The 1980 Toleman cars are of similar design but significantly different in detail.

I have some detail pictures.
Derek (originally from Burnley)

Ref: Lants. The one in Irland currently belongs to a chap called Peter McKinley who has been hill climbing it with Warrion 2l power. I did one event in it (sweet car)when it belonged to Cyril Lynch, who brought it into Ireland from the UK. At the time he said he had contacted Lant people in SA and that there were '20 or so' chassis in various stages of build, but that everything had stopped. The implication was thay they could be bought.....
Sadly Cyril passed away last year, so no further details from this end.
Surely those Lola T850/Tolemans were simply Rory Byrne Toleman chassis 'productionised' by Lola. Did Ralt have any input, or am I reading this wrong at 1am ?

OK - please go to http://rt2ralt.homestead.com and click on the various links to get detail info. Several pages still need pictures added - will do tommorrow.

I've added a note about Bert Schafer possibly being the early (original?) owner of the Winkelhock/Interserie car. Any thoughts on this appreciated.

Also please fire away about anything else I've written.

To Richard Young - you're right about the T850 - my brain wasn't switched on. Also glad to have your comment about 20 or so Lants - that tallies with the info I got from Bernard Tilanus.

Over to you guys - you're the experts not me.

Derek

Interestingly Toleman used one of the TG280s for F1 Hart engine testing initially, and it was quick! I often wonder why they never used that as thier F1 car and just did pit-stops when it ran out of fuel. Actually thinking about it the engine may not have lasted until they got to the fuel stops! Surely that would have been better than humping the General Belgrano round various circuits in 81 and qualifying twice??

Anyway I digress - does that make it the second Ralt F1 car by proxy after the Theodore of 78? (I am ignoring Brabhams here of course..)??

Some more F2 race result updates added.
http://rt2ralt.homestead.com
Any comments/updates?
Photos soon!
Derek

Derek

I'm sure Schafer was the owner of the RT2 that came out in 1980, for Rad Doygall IIRC. It appeared a few times that year, but not a full season, then again a few races with Winklehock in early 81, very nearly winning at Hockenheim, beaten at the last corner by Johannson in a Lola (Toleman) T850. So this car was definitely an 80 build, and new to Schafer I'm certain. Don't know about it afterwards, anyone got a chassis no. ??

F1R lists Rad Dougall's car (entered by Cassani Racing Team) as an "RT4", but chassis "RT2-181". This was actually entered as an RT2 in 1981 for Winkelhock, by Schafer Racing.

As Chris always says, we can't take F1R's 1970s-80s stuff as Gospel, but may be a starting point point for input from someone...?

Aha - a light is coming on.

Attached is a pic of my two chassis plates. RT4-180 looks normal (came off my ealy RT4 Atlantic). RT2-172 has been altered and judging by the distortion was altered while on the tub.

Now my RT2 came with the RT4 "tea tray" rear suspension mounting - I always thought maybe it got altered during its life here in the US (there were many RT4s here). But now I see pictures of the Schafer/Winkelhock car with the same "tea tray" - pic attached to a following post.

So - that may well explain the confusion about the Schafer car, RT2-181, being entered as an RT4 in 1980 and an RT2 in 1981 and beyond. And just maybe its chassis plate got altered as well - like mine - maybe at the factory? I've asked the current owner in Germany and he says there is no chassis plate but that's quite normal for old Ralts.

The other difference between the RT2 and RT4 is the tub is 3"-4" longer in the fuel cell area - presumably to carry enough fuel for F2 races compared with the shorter Atlantic races. Looking at a pic of that area, also attached to a following post, I can persuade myself that RT2-181 is the longer version like my RT2.

So it's beginning to look like 3 RT2s were built in 1979, all for Toleman. RT2-167 was the first one. Anyone got any info on the other numbers?

Then two were built and/or sold in 1980. RT2-172 to Bill Blackledge in the US (shipped with CanAm body) and RT2-181 to Bertram Schafer in Germany for Dougal in 1980, Winkelhock in 1981, etc.

Quite possibly all five tubs were built in 1979 (mine has no Arch Motors no.). Then when the later two were built/sold in 1980 Ralt used the simpler RT4 rear suspension (in production for the many RT4s) rather than the complex multi-tube and billet aluminium RT2 design.

Make sense?
Any other views?
Any more info on the chassis nos?

Thx a ton - Derek

Small pic of "tea tray" on Winkelhock car in 1981.

Small pic of fuel cell area on Winkelhock car in 1981.

Here's a pic of my "tea tray" so you know why I call it that!

Derek

Interesting, though from memory alone, I'm certain the Schafer car was entered in early 80 as an 'RT2', not an RT4. The only RT4 in F2 at that time, was the Mallock UK Atlantic car, entered occasionally in 81, then the ex-Leslie Atlantic (new in 80)by david Dufffield in 82-83.

Btw, have you, or anyone else, any info on the Stanley RT2 of early 81. I know I keep banging on about this, but its beginning to annoy me now ! Where did this car come from ???

Dan,

Schafer's car actually WAS entered as an RT4 in early 80, regardless of what it actually was. It's notation did change in 1981 entry lists. Stefan's excellent site at http://user.tninet.se/~aiq291w/F2_Index.htm shows the races.

Wyatt Stanley entered a TG280 in the first half of 1981, but the car never turned up to a race. Not sure about his Ralt in 1982

Jeremy

Thanks for the link, very interesting stuff in the light of some of our recent posts.

I see my 'friend Wyatt' down for a Toleman, in 1981 Silverstone, but didn't start apparently. Are we to trust this, because Autocourse (usually very accurate I've found) definitely has him down in a Ralt, and I'm sure from memory A'Sport has this too, ie the Ralt.

At that time private F2 Ralts were pretty rare, which is why I've remembered it all this time, whereas in early 81, private Tolemans, or Lola T850s, were pretty common on the back of Henton/Warwick success in 80.

Any thoughts ??

Dan,

Difficult to know re Stanley in 1981, because as I mentioned above, it wasn't that he didn't start, he didn't turn up for a race.

(Siller DNArrive with that B48 entry, so not sure on that)

F1R gives Stanley's Ralt in 1982 as "RH6-278".

Jeremy

A/Course definitely has Stanley starting and retiring in the 81 Int Trophy at Silverstone. I didn't get to that meet, did you, or do you still have the A/S report on it???


All good stuff this ain't it !!!

Did Wyatt Stanley ever actually show up at a race? All his entries seem to show "DNA". Maybe he never actually owned a car - just kept thinking about F2 racing? Or maybe he (they, his team) just couldn't get everything together.

This would be consistent with him shown as Toleman TG280 in 1981 and variously Ralt RH6-Hart (whatever that mught have been) and RT4-Hart in 1982.

Looks like ambition more than reality to me.

First F2 race at Silverstone I went to was '82 unfortunately. Don't have an Autosport for this either, perhaps someone can confirm/deny Stanley's participation. I don't know if Stefan's site has purely used Sheldon's info for this race.

Derek/Jeremy, I'll check A'Course again tonight to confirm WS was at the 81 Silverstone F2.

Dan

Dan,Derek and Ralt Fans
Just a bit of an update for you guys on the South African connection.The car that came here is RT2-152,which seems to be an earlier number than you envisaged Derek,and the chassis plate is completly different to the ones in your pictures.The "unfolded" tub,gearbox and corners still exist.
The car was copied for the locally built Lant,of which 5 were completed.The ex Ivano Moavero car is,as you say,in Ireland and the ex Billy Maloney car is for sale here at the moment.Its locally built gearbox is engraved Lant 003 in the same place that an FT200 would be stamped.The other 3 cars are retained by the Lahner family who built them.
The unfinished cars number about 8-12,but most are just bare tubs plus assorted local suspension and gearboxes.
Hope this helps,
Regards
IAN

OK - one specific question for all you experts - can anyone find a chassis numbers for the Rad Dougal RT2 in 1979?

I think we agree on -
RT2-167 Brian Henton 1979
RT2-??? Rad Dougal 1979 (168-171 range?)
RT2-??? Toleman spare (168-171 range?)
RT2-172 Blackledge CanAm 1980 (now mine)
RT2-181 Cassani/Dougal 1980

All Ralt numbers were sequential from the first RT1 through to the last RT4s in 1987. This would explain the gaps above. For instance my RT4 (a very early one I've been told) is RT4-180 and it has an Arch Motors tub number of early 1980.

Back to the Cassani/Dougal car in 1980. Some of you say it was owned by Bertram Schafer at that time. Is this true? Or did he buy it for 1981 when he entered it for Winkelhock?

Derek

Derek

My mistake on the 'German RT2', Jeremy's right it was Cassani in 80, I'll check whether it was Schafer in 81, or not. Could have been, as Schafer was a big Ralt fan as Cirrus confirms above.

Derek, dan,

It was Schafer in 1981, entered as dvf Schafer Racing.

F1R has 4 Toleman RT2 s in 1979 as 151-154... 151 listed only at Pau & Hockenheim in May/June. Later races have Henton in 154, Dougall in 153. As I mentioned before, you perhaps need to be wary of trusting these too much/at all!!

Ian
Facinating stuff. As Caesar, or was it Hannibal, once said "Ex Africa semper aliquid nova est". I'm not really a historian but having got involved it's great to learn things like that.

If that car is RT2-152 it would indicate that it was the early prototype which then became the spare car for Toleman in 1979. #152 would still be a 1979 number. To my knowledge all Ralt chassis plates of that time were the same design, like my pics, but then it's quite possible that a "replacement" plate was made to get through customs or something. This doesn't necessarily invalidate your info.

Thx a lot - Derek

Jeremy

Actually those numbers, together with Ian's info from ZA about that car being #152 start to make sense.

Per the Tauranac book 144 cars were built through 1978 so (being overly logical) 1979 production would start at 145 (RT1s and RT2s). So those numbers you quote RT2-151 through 154 look good.

Regret to say that I started the 167 number story based on a 1999 ad selling the car after its CanAm involvement and many years of storage. Never trust ads!

The other bit of good news is that I just unearthed a 1994 letter I have from Stuart Baron (then at March after they bought Ralt) about certain 1980 cars. "Your car is not one of the F2 cars. From the chassis registry these were chassis numbers 172 and 181. Your car RT4-180 was supplied as an Atlantic car......"

I talked to Stuart a couple of years ago (he now makes exhaust systems for F1 cars etc on very complicated computer controlled bending machines) and he advised that all these history records were dumped when March closed down. Argh.

So that seems to confirm those two numbers - 172 and 181.

Now back to the 1979 Toleman cars. Interesting that F1R (what is that?) quotes them as having four cars because the Tauranac book quotes there being four built in 1979. (Of course it also quotes there being only one in 1980 - so we have to be careful).

So were there 6 cars (not 5) built in 1979/80 - plus the later uncorroborated one with #278 chassis number?

The CanAm history seems easy by comparison because each team only had one car! But we can't sort out the early F2 bit. Is it possible that cars were rebuilt and given new chassis numbers?

Derek

Soory Derek, F1R is the Formula 1 Register, whcih publish a book of results of "Grand prix & Voiturette Racing" covering (so far) 1900-84. Included GP, other F1, F2 & F3000. Entry lists, chassis, and results.

Do you want a list of the races that it gives for each chassis?

Jeremy if you could do that without too much effort I'd appreciate it. As I said above I'm not really a historian but having started the exercise it would be nice to try to finish it - and to make my website as good as I can.

Do the results for 1980/81 also include chassis numbers? Just for Ralts - I'm not getting into Tolemans and T850s.

And I've got to get back to renovating my cars!

Thx - Derek

Derek,

Here they are for 1979, but obviously they can't be seen as definitive. Also there is at least one race where the spare car was used, and this doesn't get a mention in the books. So just a health warning!

1979:
Silverstone: Henton 152
Hockenheim: Henton 152
Thruxton: Henton 152
(Nurburgring, Vallelunga & Misano reverted to March 782)
Pau: Henton & Dougall both listed with 152. Suggest Dougall in 151
Hockenheim: Henton 152; Dougall 151
Zandvoort: Henton 154; Dougall 153
Enna: Henton 154; Dougall 153
Misano: Henton 154; Dougall 153 (Dougall also used T-car, according to Autosport. Not mentioned in F1R)
Donington: Henton 154; Dougall 153

Cheers

Jeremy

I have Autosport 29 Mar 1979 at my elbow and p12 has a full entry list with (nearly all) chassis numbers. The solo Ralt RT2 is given as RT2-01. Sorry!

Ralt didn't use chassis numbers like 01 in 1979 so we need to discount that Autosport reference - although obviously it was the first race for an RT2. I presume you are refering to the March 25 Silverstone race.

Jeremy - thx for all that 1979 info - I'll browse through it tonight. You've already checked that the Cassani car in 1980 was 181 and that almost certainly was the Schafer car in 1981 (right?) so that means that all four 1979 Toleman cars went somewhere else - we can account for three - 152 to ZA - one straight to US (Lovely) - one via Team Vesuvio F2 to US (Gove) later on. That leaves one to account for. Any ideas?

I did see one reference on the F2 Register website to an "RT2 Honda" in Japan. I initially assumed it was an error - but I wonder .............. I'll try to find it again. Might also make that reference to Nigel Mansell in an RT2 Honda believable - I've always discountd it as an error. Might be the "4th" Toleman car reworked. I've always accepted that all Ralt Hondas were RH6.

Derek (I haven't forgotten all your caveats)

For the record, Autosport's Thruxton report doesn't mention any chassis numbers.

Given that 1994 letter, I think the F1R data has to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. A gap between 172 and 181 would make sense given the time between Henton's and Dougall's cars being completed. There's nothing in Autosport's Zandvoort report to support F1R's contention that both cars were new (153 and 154), merely an extensive list of revisions.

One interesting item is in the Enna report where mention is made of the team's T-car: "the original prototype". So is that Henton's early season car or is it a previously-unraced prototype. How much testing did Henton do before Silverstone, anyone know?

Allen

If Ralt say 172 was a F2 car, it is still possible they overlooked a prototype RT2 lurking earlier in the register at 152. As we now have a "live" RT2-152, I guess 152 must be the T-car at Enna but the question remains was it raced previously? Could it have been the unsuccessful early-season car?

Whoa - slow down Allen. 172 and 181 were the 1980 cars. That letter was in response to a question about my RT4-180 Atlantic (by previous owner, not me). Ralt record them both as F2 cars but I know mine (172) was converted to CanAm before shipment to the US - and was not raced as an F2. This from Bill Blackledge junior who was a teenage crew member to his father the original owner/driver. Father now deceased.

Those two numbers are compatible for 1981 with Ralt's sequential numbering.

Nothing there to suggest 151-154 are not valid for the 1979 cars - based on all these inputs I'm tending to believe they are good.

Derek

Prior to Silverstone, Henton's RT2 had "merely a day of testing (at Goodwood in the wet) behind it". From Autosport's report.

That proves it - I just can't 'do' F2. I shall retreat back to the 5-litre stuff and lick my wounds.

Allen

Allen, your right. Forget the the small bore stuff. Ralt had no real system for numbering cars. Derek's RT4 is #180, and mine is #185. I understand #183 was an RT5 super-vee. Makes no sense to me. Love your site, keep up the good work.

Hey Allen and FA-Reject - don't leave us now!

I happen to think Ralt's number system very logical - started with RT1-001 and continued through RT2-3-4-5. Each car got a sequential number regardless of model. What's strange about that?

Derek

... and then they throw away all their records.

Chaps

My review of Autocourse's says that the Cassani car in 80 was entered as an RT4, but are we right to assume that actually it was built as an F2 car, so all logic suggests that it is an RT2. Also that year, Flammini is in the 1979 ex Toleman RT2, for a few races.

In 81, Winklehock is in the ex-Cassani now Schafer 'RT2' BMW, a similar car (I presume the same one) appears also for Pedersoli and Regout later that year, after Winklehock gets a Maurer seat. Also that year, 81, Piero Nappi appears in a RT2 Hart, I assume the ex-Flammini, Vesuvio car.

In 82, the Wyatt car, if we believe Autocourse and I do (!)completes 8 laps at Silverstone. Autocourse describe it as a RH6/81 Hart, so perhaps this is an ex-works Honda car re-engined. Apparently it never appears again, for Wyatt or anyone else. Only other F2 car that year, works ones excepted, is Bruno Eichmann in a BMW car, presumably the ex-Cassani/Schafer chassis.

Dan,

I knew Stanley started at Silverstone '82, I was at the race. 1981 was the race you were questioning if he started or not - I still think he was a DNA. As previously mentioned, the car was quoted as chassis 278, but didn't appear again, so we are in the dark for the moment.

The Cassani/Schafer chassis is as discussed earlier.

Flammini is quoted in F1R as "possibly" the orginal RT2, chassis 151.

Derek,
Regarding your comments on the chassis plate,the one for 152 is what i would describe as being similar to the early Brabham type i.e.black plastic background with etched letters/numbers which then show through as white.Across the top it states the chassis number and then underneath 'Ralt Cars Ltd,Weybridge,Surrey,England'.It is glued on,no screws or rivets.
Regards
Ian

Hey Dan - it's good that we Lancastrians are sticking together!

Thx for the extra info which helps confirm what we were concluding up till now.

Summary

151 = presumably first car built (or at least started) by Ralt Cars but only raced twice both times by Dougal in June. What happened to this car? Did it become Honda prototype? Did it get rebuilt and re-numbered? Or did it just disappear?

152 - used for one day testing before first race then raced 5 times by Henton from March to June. Retained as T-car after that. Sold without engine to ZA at end of season. Mazda engine installed. Dismantled to form basis of local Lants.

153 - new car for Dougal, raced last 4 events starting July.

154 - new car for Henton, raced last 4 events starting July.

153 and 154 - these were probably sold as complete running cars. One, don't know which, went to Team Vesuvio, raced F2 1980/81 then to Genoa Racing for CanAm 1983/84, currently for sale in California. Other was sold to Lovely for 1980 CanAm (won 2L title), to Jim Trueman for 1981 CanAm (won 2L title again), to Ausca International for 1983/84 CanAm, currently for sale (as Atlantic) in Indiana.

All above were built in first half 1979 and, judging by sequential numbers, presumably at least the tubs were all built very early in 1979.

172 - built early 1980 (or very late 1979) sold to Blackledge for CanAm. Never raced F2. Currently being restored for historic CanAm.

181 - built with, or for, BMW engine in early 1980 for Cassani (Dougal), to Schafer (Winkelhock etc) for 1981 and one race in 1982, then various drivers (Hardt, Binder etc) in Interserie from 1984-1991. Currently for sale in Germany.

278 - chassis number suggests 1981 build which is mysterious. No early history known at this time (*). Imported from UK to US in 1996/97 and now active in US historic F2 racing. Could this have originated as 151?

Thx - guys.

That leaves two questions -
1 - what happened to 151?
2 - which of 153/154 went to Cassani and which to Vesuvio?

Any clues?

(*) - see next post

Derek

Hey Jeremy - Bingo - did you say the Watts car was numbered 278? That supports the car currently being historic raced here - see previous post. Where was this number reported? And was it RT2-278 or RH6 or RT4?

Also where did car come from? Was it really built in 1981 as the number would suggest? Seems strange to me. Was it a rebuild - did Ralt do that sort of thing? And if they did would they use a new number?

Derek

Ian

Thx for that info.

Do you have access to these cars (and bits and pieces)?

If you do could you take some pics and either mail them to me or email them directly?

Do you know Bernard Tilanus? It was through him that I first heard about the ZA RT2 - he drove it. I met him couple of years ago in Detroit.

Do you live in Joberg area? I lived in Pretoria for several years - wonderful climate (says he getting the snow blower tuned and ready!)

Derek

Derek,

Annoying what you wish you'd looked at more closely 20 years ago...

I didn't get too close to Stanley's car in 1982. It was entered as an "RH6/81", which may not help much, but may at least confirm its build date(year). Fitted with a Hart engine

Does Flammini having 151 fit in with what you know?

Jeremy - thx.

I have no info on whether the Vesuvio/Flammini car might have been 151. All I know (think I know?) is that Vesuvio/Flammini race an RT2 in F2 and that the Italians (Sicilians?) running Genoa Racing here used an RT2 (same RT2 presumably) for their CanAm car. You don't ask too many questions about what Sicilians did 20 years ago!? I talked to the current "owner" of Genoa Racing in San Francisco about a year ago.

Derek

Derek, scratch the 151 idea for Flammini - Autosport's report for Enna 1980 says Flammini's car was the ex-Toleman car that had been on pole in 1979 (Henton). If (big if...)we assume the stuff I listed is correct, that would be 154.

Jeremy

You're right, as usual (!) on the Wyatt RT2/RH6-81. It was Int Trophy in 82, not 81. If so I guess it could well have been an ex-works Honda car. Perhaps Ron T helped WS convert the car as a thanks for showcasing the RT3 so well in 1980. After all if Wyatt looked OK in the RT3, it must have been really special !!

Btw are we all certain Toleman had 4 RT2s in 79 ?

Separately, what do you have on TG280s from 80-83 ?

Dan,

As I said, nothing's absolutely certain re:RT2s, I'm just quoting the one source, with the usual caveats. If, as Allen said, chassis records aren't kept/are lost, we don't stand too much of a chance 20 years on.

Since Wyatt never arrived at a race with this TG280 in 1981, there's got to be a doubt whether he actually had an entity, I suppose. TG280s in general could do with their own thread maybe, rather than get a bit lost in this one!

Generally, my stance on F2 has been similar to Allen's i.e I've left it alone, so while I have some of my own notes, plus some Autosport reports + F1Register books, I haven't looked at how things all fit together.

Allen's reference to Ralt records being lost was, I think, based on my comment to him in email correspondence earlier this year.

I have a letter to the previous owner of my Atlantic RT4-180 from a Stuart Barron at March Cars in 1994 - ie after they bought Ralt.

In part it says - your car (RT4-180) is not one of the F2 cars - from the chassis register these (the F2 cars) appear to be 172 and 181. By implication he was checking numbers around the 180 mark. And as I've said before there are physical differences such as fuel cell size.

In 2001 or 2002 I made an effort to find Stuart. Found him at some exotic racing exhaust manufacturer near Oxford and had a good conversation with him. In essense he said - well you know how it is - when March was dissolved nobody was interest in the old Ralt stuff - it just got chucked away. So there you are!

Hey I really appreciate all this stuff you guys have unearthed for me. I'll get the website updated soon (too busy restoring some of these cars right now!) - fully bearing in mind all the caveats you keep throwing around.

Derek

You are not the only person who has told me the Ralt records were thrown away at that point. However, I have been told someone kept a copy and I am actively pursuing that.

Allen

Allen

That would be fantastic if you did unearth a copy.

Derek

Derek,

RT2-278 is for sale at race-cars.com, says "brought to the U.S. in 1996"

For what it's worth, what appears to be the same chassis was for sale in the UK in August 1995, as 1982 chassis, "believed only 2 races from new"

Jeremy

If 278 is the ex-Wyatt car, and he only did 1 race in it, perhaps it had 1 outing for the works, maybe in 81 ??? Could it have been the one Thackwell wrecked at Thruxton in early 81, when he also did his career no good. Does the chassis no fit for an early 81 Ralt ?

Jeremy

Yes - I know that car well. I know Brad Capshaw who imported it, Archie Urciuoli who owned it for several years and Dale Lang who just bought it last year - the "for sale" is, I believe, out of date.

Your comment about "for sale in UK in 1995" makes sense. Also now that we think we've identified it's early provenance so do the "1982 chassis" and "only two races from new" comments.

Thx a lot.

Completely OT - funnily enough both my Lolas were also "only 2 races from new" when I got them - the T460 in the Canadian Labatts series and T9150 in the Japanese F3000!

Now Dan - "only two races from new" might just be sales talk - ie not very accurate. But your comments aree interesting nevertheless.

Derek

Ah, I guess I was looking in their archives!

Dan, seems reasonable it was an ex-RH6, it was entered as such in 1982. I guess we may never know...

278, as we've discussed, is way out of sync. for the time, isn't it?

Not necessarily way out of sync. My rough guideline on this is the total number of Ralts produced starting with the RT1 in 1975 and assuming the total production figures in Mike Lawrences book are reasonably good (although we seem to have agreed that the RT2 is not 100pc correct.

Based on that -
- 1975 - 1 thru 10
- 1976 - thru 38
- 1977 - thru 89
- 1978 - thru 144 - all RT1s so far
- 1979 - thru 169 - includes first RT2s
- 1980 - thru 202 - RT2/3/4/5 and RH6
- 1981 - thru 281
- 1982 - thru 363
- etc - 446 - 517 - 606 - 684 .....

This seems to fit in with about half a dozen later models (1985/86)I've either seen or seen advertised.

So 278 would fit in either late 1981 or early 1982 - reasonable - and who knows when the numbers were assigned - when the tub was received or when the car was finished, or when - and odd balls like one off RT2s might have taken some time to "finish".

Came across some small, grainy pics of an alleged RH6 on a Japanese website. Had Honda decals on. The centre section (cockpit/fuel cell area) looked as near identical to an RT2 as you tell from that flimsy evidence - possibly lending credibility to the confusion about RT2 Hondas and RH6 Harts.

OK - back to renovation work.

Derek

In my continuing attempts to be useful, I got this from Gary Gove this morning:

Just a blurb about the "Gove" car. This was never a formula B car, as this car won the 1979 Formula 2 Championship, carried chassis No. 2(written in electric pencil!) entered by Toleman Group Motorsport The car was penned originally by Ron Tauranac, at Ralt, but re-engineered by a young man at Toleman, one Rory Byrne, who now spends most of his time in Italy working on red cars....I went to Toleman, met with Rory,purchased the car and two Hart 420R engines, and myself, Chris Lovely, Pete Lovely and Butch Dennison dreamed up the coachwork over lunch. The car was the first two liter in 8 of the ten races in 1980. The car was sold to Jim Trueman, who continued it's winning ways in 1981.
Respectfully,
Gary Gove


Allen

Found a picture of the 'Stanley' car at home t'other day - its red !!! As far as I can remember it was a new car (similar to the Honda eng ones) built to accept the Hart. It didn't do many races before it was sold on.

Re: Allens' quote from Gary Gove, I give up, I know when I'm beaten... I don't have enough (or any) definite info. to put a case against it!

Or were the original sequential Ralt nos. overwritten/replaced?

I remember the Stanley car as red, it still was in the Autosport advert in 1995, and the race-cars.com one (mostly)

Jeremy/Derek

Surely the Gove quote on his car being chassis "no2" can't be right. We're all agreed that Ralt nos were sequential, and very logical for it. I can only assume GG was told it was the 2nd RT2 built, may be its no. was modified by the works to help the sale ???

On the Wyatt car, perhaps it was a late 81/early 82 build, the no. seems to indicate this, so maybe it was brand new when he got it. Must have cost a bob or 2 I'd have thought, wonder where WS got his loot from, his cars never seemed to be spsonsored when i think about it.

On the Japanese RH6s, I think a good few went out there, no doubt at Hondas request/payment.

"#2 written in electric pencil" could mean anything or nothing. When I gave the restored car a good look over last year there was no such obvious mark - and no Ralt plate either although, likewise, means nothing by now.

What Gary said ties in exactly with what Peter Lovely told me in person at Mount Tremblant this summer. Incidently in addition to their 8 wins the other two results were 2nd and 5th - not bad! Andit went on to won the U2L title the next year with Jim Trueman.

Found a pic of another Japanese RH6 on the web last night - both of them were green/white. Do we have any forum members who speak Japanese?

Derek

To me, "carried chassis No. 2(written in electric pencil!)" means Gary has a specific memory of seeing some chassis marking. It is quite consistent with Autosport reporting that the first RT2 was RT2-1.

I fear that although Ralt kept their sequential markings for their own internal records, that the Toleman team cars may not have carried those numbers. Could the design have been done by Ralt, and maybe the chassis build too, but the final build have been done by Byrne and others at Toleman? Could they have just ordered four tubs from Ralt and done a large proportion of the work themselves?

If so, we're looking for RT2-1, RT2-2, RT2-3 and maybe RT2-4 although I remain unconvinced that there was ever a fourth car.

Allen

Allen

Interesting conjecture. It ties in with your report from Autosport but not with Jeremy's info (151/152/153/154) from F1R.

Nor with Ian's info on 152 from ZA. Although since he said the chassis plate is different from the normal Ralt one of that time maybe that was made when they bought it. I know Bernard Tilanus told me they visited Toleman to buy that car - but where did the plate come from? Could have been from anywhere.

Does Gary remember where that car's number was "electric penciled" on the tub. I could ask the other two owners to check theirs in the same place.

I suspect Arch Motors did not make the tubs. My RT2 has no Arch Motors number (although my RT4 has).

Derek

Derek,

As I said, F1R is not totally trustworthy, but since I'd seen references elewhere to 152 & 153(before this thread!), I thought here maybe "some" substance to the numbering. I did give a health warning with the F1R stuff!

Allen's conjecture of Ralt receiving tubs seems a good bet to me... but how F1R could track those to an allocation per race is a bit dodgy.

Derek,
The remains of the Ralt and the unfinished Lants are all locked away in a workshop in the depths of the Lahner factory complex.I saw them 5 or so years ago ,and a friend was in there a few months back looking at the 2 Marches and getting the Ralt gearbox.It is not really accesable i'm afraid.
I know Bernard and speak to him often,he has been one of the top drivers here for the last 30 years.We are both based in Joburg.The other cars he brought in in the early 80,s were ex Henton 782 Marches.
I presume from your comments that earlier Ralts than 152 do not have the style of chassis plate that i have described ?
There are another 2 or 3 Ralts still here,but they are RT4 Atlantics.
Regards
Ian

Jeremy, Allen

I think we are all agreeing with each other!

I can understand Toleman assigning numbers 1, 2, 3 (and 4?) even if there were Ralts numbers as well. Didn't I hear/read somewhere that Toleman people were at Ralt for the final build of the first cars? Hey they were all pretty much cottage industries back then so personnel coming and going would be nothing strange.

The numbering could have happened the other way round. Toleman guys could have etched on their numbers while helping with the initial build, then Ralt may (or may not) have stuck on their official plates before the cars left the factory. And probably the build, with Toleman people, would have been separate from the RT1 build area. If that did happen then the etched numbers may only have been on the first car, or first couple of cars.

I understand your caution about F1R not being totaly reliable, but the numbers (151 etc) must have come from somewhere - I can't imagine F1R (or their reports/reporters) just inventing them for the fun of it!

Who knows? In the absence of definitive proof they are both feasible.

Derek

Ian

Please give my regards to Bernard.

It is my understanding that RT1 Ralts have the same style of plate as the RT2/RT4 plates I posted earlier. There are a lot in historic racing here but I've never taken all that much interest (and most don't have plates anyhow!).

Derek

"spearce" just sent me pic of 278 being worked on in Pete Harris' workshop in 1982/83.

One or two detail differences from the other RT2s but in particular I was intrigued to see that it seems to have a rocker arm rear suspension which is the third variant of RT2 rear suspension that I'm aware of. Maybe it came from the RH6? - or forerunner of what they did for the RT4 in 1983?

I'll send it on to the current owner.

Derek

I queried the numbering system with Gary and he sent this:

Hi, Allen......

There must be two different numbering systems.
The first RT2s, done by Ralt were a little flexible, and the Toleman cars were re-done by Rory Byrne, using better materials and a few design changes. All the tubs were built by Toleman. These were the cars used by Toleman. The drivers were Brian Henton, and as I remember it, Derek Warick. Somewhere in my gaggle of stuff I have an AutoSport with the car on the cover--when I find it I will resolve the driver discrepancy! Could be my memory has had a wobble!
At any rate, I went to England, to Tolemans, exained the cars, and after a hilarious Pub lunch with Rory and the mechanics, chose the car used the least by Henton, and the most by Warick, as Henton was a bit of a rock ape, wearing everything out every race!(ex: he used up a ring and pinion every race, I ran 10 races,+ all testing etc, never used up one). The Henton car had been used for hard testing just before I got there, and was really knackered... He had also had some pretty big accidents. My car had the number two written on the tub, in electric pencil, the other car the number one, written in the same fashion. I think the RT-167 is a number put on the tub after a replacement of the tub, which I believe was done in late 81 or 82.
Mine was the only RT-2 F2 car in the US in 80. In 1982 a few Tolemans, as opposed to Ralt F2 cars were raced in Can-Am. If Blackledge had a sister car, it was not in 80 or 81.
Gary GoveA couple of points here I'd like to highlight. Firstly, although Gove is confusing the Henton/Warwick/TG280 season with the Henton/Dougal/RT2 season, his suggestion that Toleman and Byrne "redid" the RT2s is most interesting. Secondly, he remembers his "ex-Warwick" car being RT2-2 and the heavily tested ex-Henton one being RT2-1. I wonder if that heavily tested ex-Henton one was actually the prototype/spare and Henton's later race car RT2-3 was quietly tucked out of sight when the American arrived with his chequebook.

My suspicion is that F1R got hold of Ralt production records and found four entries 151-154 for the RT2s. They then made that fit the known race record. They may even have observed something different at the time but then "corrected" those observations when the factory records were made available. Only speculation...

Allen

Allen

Good info and interesting recollections from Gary.

In addition to his mix up on Henton's partner in 1979 I think he is also wrong about there being no other RT2 in 1980 or 81. He is probably thinking about the Genoa car not being there in 80 or 81 (or 82 for that matter). However I can understand (or excuse) his memory lapse in that Blackledge was no where near as frequent an entrant nor as competitive as he or Genoa were.

Interesting comment about 167 possibly being a valid number and refering to a new tub - although the sequence of that number doesn't fit with a late 81 or 82 date.

Since 167's sequence would suggest a very late 79 date might it have been retubbed before it was shipped to the US? If so it also begs the question whether my 172 (very early 1980) might also have been a re-tub of a Toleman team car. All Blackledge's son could remember was that his father "went to the Ralt factory to buy the car" and "the CanAm body was already installed when the car arrived in the US". Bernard Tilanus told me he and Lahner "went to the Toleman shop and ended up buying their spare car".

Interesting stuff. Any progess on finding the copy of the chassis book?

Derek

Derek

Could Ralt have supplied a spare RT2 tub to Gove/Lovely in 1980 and the tub only get used 1981/82? Maybe they built a batch of RT2 tubs near the end of 1979? One of those could have been the car Ralt sold to Blackledge.

As for the Toleman RT2s, do we now have RT2-1 going to South Africa, RT2-2 to Gove and RT2-3 to Flammini? Any evidence of any other ex-Toleman cars? I'm still not convinced they ever had four cars.

Allen

Allen

I understand your concern about F1R's use of numbers 151/52/53/54 but that info must have come from somewhere, the ZA car provided an unsolicited ref to 152 so I'm inclined to believe that the chassis book did have those numbers (hope you can find the copy that you think exists). The question is how do these numbers relate to the 3 cars Toleman had in 1979 to which they apparently assigned at least a #2 and therefore maybe #1 and #3 as well. And did they have three cars or four. Was the fourth possibly just a tub?

I agree you can read Gary Gove's comment on #167 more than one way. If "his" car was retubbed in 81 or 82 it would have been after they sold it to Trueman and possibly after they sold it to Ausca.

That car currently has the original rear legs and rear suspension - unlike mine (172) and Winkelhock's (181) - which had RT4 rear suspension. So whatever the story is on 167 it is not identical to mine. I agree however that 167 could have been a spare tub used by the "Gove" car.

After all that I tend to agree that Toleman #1 seems to have been the hardworked first car that Henton used and then became the spare car after he got #3. Then it went to ZA as RT2-152. Gove and his electric pencil are #2 which was the more gently used Dougal car. And the remaining car, #3, became Vesuvio/Flammini for 80/81 F2, then Genoa/Romano/Fangio for 83/84 CanAm.

If we knew where the electric pencil #2 was on the tub I could ask the current owner of #3 to look for it.

Derek

Derek

Do we have a picture of that 152 chassis plate?

Allen

No. Ian from ZA responded immediately when we mentioned those numbers and said that the Lahner/Tilanus car was 152. When I posted pix of my two plates he said the ZA car had a different plate "more like the old Brabhams". He also said he didn't have access to it now.

I think I get your drift though!

Derek

Allen, I agree. Have no evidence wither way, other than memory, but I always thought there were only 3 RT2s, later tubds notwithstanding. I have them like you, ie one to Genoa/Flammini, one to ZA, one to Gove/CanAm.

The 278 car mentioned above that we think is probably a Hart engined RH6, did that go the US too, albeit a year or 2 later ? Is the Pete Harris mentioned the chap who yused to run Paul Smith (BMTR)'s FAt/F2 cars ??

Dan

Yes - 278 came to the US about 1996 and is regularly historic raced. I doubted its number until this discourse so thanks for that!

Saying it is a Hart engined RH6 may be misleading. So far as I can tell RT2s and RH6s are almost the same from the roll bar forward. However - the Honda V6 was a stressed member and the Hart/BMWs used an engine frame - aluminium "legs" extending rearwards from the tub. 278 certainly has the RT2 design of legs etc.

Summary of current locations -
- Gove car - Indiana, Atlantic spec
- Genoa car - California, CanAm spec
- ZA car - Joburg, dismantled
- 172 - Detroit, CanAm spec renovation
- 181 - Germany, F2, CanAm body available
- 278 - Florida, F2 spec.

Derek

The original "plan" in 1979 , according to Autosport's Silverstone report was for 4 chassis - "The Toleman team spent he winter tooling up for their Ralt chassis - they will have four".

Whether this actually happened or not...

....which might explain the four chassis numbers......

But.... if there were 4, where did the 4th go after Tolemans ?

Dan

I think that is Allen's point - he's not convinced there ever were four.

Jeremy has now found an AS article saying the PLAN was for four - which might explain the four chassis numbers 151-154. Maybe Ralt just allocated those numbers regardless of whether they all got built or not. Maybe one was just a tub - etc - etc.

Derek

Derek

You are exactly right about where my thinking was going. I have at least one example in F5000 (and I think there are more in F2) of a car being given a new chassis plate (to replace a missing one) with the number taken from F1R data. So it is possible (unlikely - but possible) that a car was given a 152 chassis plate because it was "known" to be ex-Dougal and the F1R book said 152 was Dougal's car.

Chassis plates are about 90% reliable in my F1/F5000 experience but that still means one in every ten could be a red herring.

Allen

Or maybe one got put in Ralt's skip, or...etc. Without anything first-hand, it's a bit difficult at 24 years distance. Memory can't be relied upon anyway!

I dont know if this is of any help but I am sure that RALT as well as putting the chassis number on a plate also stamped it in to the front bulkhead of the tub along with the initials of the fabricator responsible for that car. One of my 1985 F3 cars certainly has this and I have seen it on others. The only problem is however that the front bulkheads were quite often replaced due to accident damage.

I've been wrong before in this life but I think that was just the Arch Motors tub number - not the Ralt chassis number. Unfortunately the RT2 tubs don't seem to have been built by AM - or at least never got an AM number.

For example my RT-172 has no AM number but my RT4-180 (built at almost the same time) does.

Derek

Derek

Sorry for that I will have a look this weekend. I must have been given some duff information

Kind regards

JIM

I dropped my Lola FF chassis off at arch motors on sat. They had the damaged F2 tub from Mike Thackwell's Thruxton shunt there - not a pretty sight.

Herewegoagain - you did of course get pictures of the chassis plate, AM number and electric pencil doodling!?

Seriously - which RT2 do we now think this is? Unless Thackwell had a BMW engine we ocunt out the "German" car. If the accident was in early 1981 then we count out #278 because that sequence would have been late 1981 build. It can't have been one of the Toleman cars - the Gove car was in CanAm by then - the 2nd car was in Italy (Vesuvio/Flammini) and the 3rd one was in ZA. And my car was in CanAm.

So which car was it? Was it indeed an RT2? Was it the mysterious 4th Toleman car? Or an RT4 with 2L engine? A TG280? Or what?

At least seeing it there seems to show that Arch built replacement tubs even if not the original ones.

HELP - Derek

Oh, what the hell,I'll take the bait...

Derek, this would be the RH6-Honda that Thackwell crashed in practice at the Thruxton F2 race in 1981...??

Presumably now without a Ralt identity, as the same one may have been used for the replacement?

It was several feet up in the air, so sorry no chassis no, but yes JJ, it was the works Honda powered one from Thruxton.

I'm amazed that the tub, presumably in pretty poor state, has survived at all after 23 years or so. Wonder why it wasn't just scrapped completely at some point since 81. The cynic in me says for 'legal reasons', maybe not ...

Derek,

I'm sure we've talked about this before, but, Arch Motors had several places the A.M. number was stamped on the Ralts. Normally, facing the front bulkhead, it was stamped either upper left or upper right corner. They also, for whatever reason, sometimes stamped it on the forward facing side of the front roll hoop.

On the 'March 772-05' thread on here, there's a great link to Iain Nicholsons site. This has a picture of George MacMillan in an RT2 at an Ingliston Libre in 1982. I'd forgotten about this car. Any ideas as to its history, or was it an RT4 modified ?

There are some good 'memory joggers' on the site too, eg Bob Rollos March, the Smith/Jones Surtees and Ensign F1s, Ted Dzerziek Ensign, plus a Scottish B25/B27 (can't recall the driver now !).

Interestingly, Manfred Cassani offered both an RT2 and an RT4 for sale in the autumn of 1980! I presume he simply got the designations all mixed up, and the RT2 would've been the RT1 in reality - he was asking twice as much (60,000 Deutschmarks) for the RT4!

This needs to be back at the top again. See the Cicale Ralt Can-Am car (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=1022515#post1022515) thread.

RT2s from the Ralt list
Note :- before c/no 151 type no. was not listed but I believe all were RT1s

RT2-152 Toleman F2
RT2-153 Toleman F2
RT2-154 Toleman F2
RT2-172 Robertson (agent) marked Can-Am - delivered 12/6/80
RT2-181 Cassani F2
RT2-278 Stanley F2 delivered 18/2/82 (Allen, I missed this one on the e-mail I sent yesterday)

No other RT2s listed

ADAM

Posted originally on wrong thread!

Good. Glad we've finally confirmed only 3 Toleman RT2s, (despite the best efforts of F1R...)

Originally posted by dereklola
After all that I tend to agree that Toleman #1 seems to have been the hardworked first car that Henton used and then became the spare car after he got #3. Then it went to ZA as RT2-152. Gove and his electric pencil are #2 which was the more gently used Dougal car. And the remaining car, #3, became Vesuvio/Flammini for 80/81 F2, then Genoa/Romano/Fangio for 83/84 CanAm. I thought it was worth retrieving this post from earlier in the thread. Now that we know Toleman only had 152, 153 and 154, it makes complete sense that "RT2/1" went to South Africa as RT2-152. Gove's "RT2/2" would therefore be RT2-153 leaving the ex-Henton Enna pole car that went to Italy as RT2-154.

It is possible Toleman swapped 153 and 154 around but I can't see any real reason to believe that.

How "167" became associated with Gove's car will have to remain a mystery for now. I may be taking a gamble, but in my Can-Am records I'm going to call the Gove car 153 and the Genoa Racing car 154.

Allen

Allen, Adam, Dan, Jeremy and others - thx for the exquisite detective work - as I've said before my main interest is in vintage racing these cars but the history scramble has been fascinating. I totally agree with Allen's summary above and really thank Adam for joining the fray. I'd still like to know how he came by the Ralt list!

Derek

Adam

I may have missed this - but is 167 shown on your Ralt list at all? If so - what as? And 168? As posted much earlier I have a letter from Stuart Barron at March (after they bought Ralt) dated 10 Feb 1994 stating that RT2 chassis nos were 172 and 181. The letter was addressed to a previous owner so I'm not sure what the question was.

Just to continue is 180 shown? I have RT4-180 and that same letter from March confirms 180 was an RT4. Are there other early RT4's listed. I'd love to get such a list since they "surface" every so often in vintage racing here.

Finally who was Brian Robertson - and which side of the Atlantic?

Derek

Derek,

The list came from Ralt, after they were bought by March via the son of a friend of mine.

172 & 181 ARE listed as RT2s

167 was an RT1 Atlantic for Brian Robertson, who was the North American agent.

168 was an RT3 F3 for Bertram Schafer in Germany

180 is shown as an RT4 Atlantic shipped to Robertson on 30 June 1980. The Gearbox No. is shown as FT1350. This is the third RT4 listed, after 162 and 178.

Adam

Adam

Great info. How far does your Ralt list go - 200? 300? 700? Or in years 1981, 82? 87?

If we started an RT4 topic could you extract the first year or so?

Derek

I met Steve W last night, who's a big UK Sprint/Climbing fan. He had a pic of an RT4, the ex-Patrick Wood car, now owned by Richard Williams. From Steve's site, he has this down as -157, which I'm dubious about, given that the Toleman RT2s were 151-154. Anyone know any more re this car ?

So that make three Lancastrians talking together!

According to the chassis book Adam sent me -157 was an RT1 Super Vee delivered to a John Nielson sometime in 1979 [date too faint to read]. Had Arch Motors tub 79/209. Nielson also had RT5-188 Super Vee delivered a year later. Both had Hewland Mk9 gearboxes.

So -157 was not originally an RT4. The first RT4 was 162 delivered sometime on 1979, then 178 in March 1980, then 180 [mine] in June 1980, then hundreds of them followed on.

Also - minor correction - the 3 Toleman RT2s were 152-154. 151 was also an RT1 Super Vee.

Derek and Dan, just wait until Easter. I will be seeing Richard at Croft so will TREBLE check the chassis plate.

Funny how us Lancastrians tend to gravitate! :brr:

"I will TREBLE check the chassis plate" - if you want any more let me know - I have several here in my desk!

Try looking for an Arch Motors No on the front surface of the tub front plate - top left or top right - or anywhere else around the front of the tub. Should be 79-209. Might be partially hidden by the suspension mounting plate.

Also check whether the front ARB [anti-roll bar, swaybay, whatever they are called now] is mounted on the top of the front of the tub or on the front surface. I've seen some RT5s with them on the front but all RT4s seem to have them on top.

Croft at Easter? Early Easter? Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

Derek, -157 the Neilson FSV car, would have been early 79. The Bernard Hunter RT1 FAt, was -145, and that came out early 79. I think -162 would have been the 1st Mallock FAt, he used it first of all at Brands in late Sept 79.

Dan - I've no problem with that - on the photocopy list that Adam sent me the early dates are all but invisible - as if they might have faded, or been written in pencil or some other colour that didn't copy, or even erased. I don't know. A 7 and a 9 are just barely discernable on one line.

Adam - are those dates legible on your copy?

Dan

If Mallock does race 162 [and I haven't got that far with 1979 results yet...] it's a try out for the works, because that car was consigned to Robertson at Ralt American. Don't suppose anyone's got a nice colour photo of it?

157 delivered 25.4.79

Derek, do you have a history for 180 prior to Jeremy Hill and after Gary Revesz?
Shall we start an RT4 thread?

Chris

Dan

If Mallock does race 162 [and I haven't got that far with 1979 results yet...] it's a try out for the works, because that car was consigned to Robertson at Ralt American. Don't suppose anyone's got a nice colour photo of it?

157 delivered 25.4.79

Derek, do you have a history for 180 prior to Jeremy Hill and after Gary Revesz?
Shall we start an RT4 thread?

Chris

From dim and distant the MN that covered that meeting had a b/w photo of the car, the only time Mallock used it that year. Not surprisingly, he won !

I just spotted something in some 1979 Motoring News acquired today at Beaulieu. MN's Mugello F2 report (24 May 1979 pp16,17) says Henton was in "the original" RT2 and Dougal briefly tested the "long overdue second car". Then, in the results, Henton's car is called "RT2/152", although no other chassis numbers are quoted.

So this confirms what we deduced from Adam's information, that the first RT2 was 152 and no second car appeared until well into the season.

On the HGP thread on 'Historic Motor Racing Today', I see on the entry list, Eric Lang entered in an RT2. I presume this is the F3/3000 racer from the mid-80s here, and its an ex Toleman car. Anyone ?

yes the eric lang is the f3/300 racer from the 80`s
i met him 4 yrs ago at BRICS racing rt4 car
I embarrassed him by saying i remember as a kid at school him racing with dumfries scott jones etc- he is the same age give or take 24 months as me :rofl:

there was an rt2 in usa was in Fl for sale 2 years ago cant recall the tag#

I recall some time ago, perhaps years now, we discussed the Paul Brooks (??) 'Hornet' car. Did we decide how much this was his own car, and how much an RT4?? It definitely looked like an RT2/4.

i know where the car is will ask the man who has it

RT2s from the Ralt list
Note :- before c/no 151 type no. was not listed but I believe all were RT1s

RT2-152 Toleman F2
RT2-153 Toleman F2
RT2-154 Toleman F2
RT2-172 Robertson (agent) marked Can-Am - delivered 12/6/80
RT2-181 Cassani F2
RT2-278 Stanley F2 delivered 18/2/82 George McMillan ran a Ralt RT2 in 1983 (maybe also in 1982 - I'm not sure yet). I just spoke with George and he bought the last customer RT2 from a lad who'd only driven it once, in the rain. When I suggested Wyatt Stanley, he confirmed that was him. The car had an ex-Warwick Hart 420 engine.

George sold the car to a hillclimber in Aberdeenshire who we may find in libre races at Ingliston in 1984.

By 1989 the ex Stanley car was being run by Martin Chittenden

Chris

George just phoned me back (in the middle of the match!) to say he'd remembered who he sold the Ralt to. Ron Cumming.

Hoots mon i dinna remember him ha`in a Ralt to race Marches he had 4
1 742 with Esprit body GA v6 motor
2 then he had the stratos from John churchill 832 ( ex ZA sigma car) with BMW M12
3 then he acquired andy bartons AC3000 with hart ( now has stratos body & duratec fitted)
4 he had 832 with mazda ex sigma car fitted BMW m12 i had the roller # 15 ex James Gresham racing F2 team car