Pilbeam

In 1976/77 the Yorkshire pairing of Elliot & Dungworth built three 'new' Pilbeams which they gave the nomenclature MP22. These three cars were 'copies' of the Pilbeam R22 which was itself a development of the R15.

Now R15 started life as a Brabham BT38 (chassis 28 to be precise).

The three MP22 chassis were all based on Brabham's. The question is which?

:Snow: :cool:

Were they really based on Brabhams? I always throught the MP22 monocoques were built by Pilbeam. He certainly had the facilities, ability and experience.

Allen

Although bearing the Pilbeam name they were not built by Mike Pilbeam but were to his design. The chassis were either based on Brabhams or possibly Brabham copies or 'neo-Brabham' tubs!

The three cars were the first to carry the MP prefix as previous projects were prefixed with an R.

I'll keep digging to see if anyone can improve on this! :cool:

Although bearing the Pilbeam name they were not built by Mike Pilbeam but were to his design. The chassis were either based on Brabhams or possibly Brabham copies or 'neo-Brabham' tubs!

The three cars were the first to carry the MP prefix as previous projects were prefixed with an R.

I'll keep digging to see if anyone can improve on this! :cool:


The Pilbeam site http://www.pilbeamracing.co.uk/index2.html calls them R22 - Cosworth DFV development of R15.

And the R15 they describe as "Hillclimb development of Brabham BT38"

Steve, if you search Atlas F1 you will find about three pages of Pilbeam threads......your question has probably been answered there, Cheers :)

As far as i know, there was only 1 Pilbeam MP22 built, this was hillclimbed by Malcolm Dungworth under the W & G banner with a 3.3 litre DFV fitted. The other W & G car was a MP31 fitted with a 3.6 liter DFV and was used by ADO. Peter Kaye also had a MP31 DFV at about the same time 1978 ish. Both the MP31's were destroyed in accidents ADO's at Fintray and Peter Kayes at Barbon.The MP22 is still around, and i think is owned by Sandra Tomlin at the moment although now fitted with a 4 cylinder Hart engine.

Cheers

Mad Ferrit

Rich

There were three MP22s according to the notes I made in period:

MP22-01 destroyed Val Des Terres 1978
MP22-02 M Dungworth 1979; P Kaye 1980
MP22-03 (new in 1980) M Dungworth 1980 and 1981

Reading quickly through Mason, the MP22 story starts with Richard Shardlow in the ex-Tate of Leeds Brabham BT38 (identified on the BT38 thread as BT38/28) with a 2.0 BDG in 1973 (p249). ADO had the ex-Shardlow BT38 with a 2.0 BDA in 1974 (p253) and then had it rebuilt by Pilbeam as the R15 for 1975 (p267) and fitted with a 2.2 BDG. The R22 appeared in 1976 (p273) and was his R15 stretched and fitted with a Cosworth DFV. This became the MP22 in 1977 (p283) but was crashed at Doune (p289) and "totally rebuilt" for Dungworth to drive in 1978 (p290). He wrecked it as Val Des Terres (p294). Mason even calls it MP22-01 on one occasion.

Mason isn't clear on Dungworth's 1979 car but, in 1980, Dungworth had "a new MP22, chassis 03 built up" and his "old MP22-02" went to Kaye (p304).

Whether newly retired BT38 tubs were used for MP22-02 and MP22-03 is entirely unclear.

Allen

The chassis know as R22 started life as Allen Brown points out as Brabham BT38-28. It was then modified by Mike Pilbeam and became R15. This was subsequently modified to take a DFV and became R22.

I will be writing to Malcolm Dungworth to try to clear up the origins of the THREE MP22 chassis that appeared and will post the response in due time.

Just got off the phone after a long chat with Malcolm Dungworth. He is currently writing the History of the MP22 Cars - coincidence or what?

As this will be a substantial piece I am going to see if we can get this into Speedscene magazine and also onto Ten Tenths!

It will also include some never before disclosed information ;)

:cool:

Earlier this year I was fortunate to be invited to a factory visit at Mike Pilbeam's Unit in Bourne, Lincolnshire. Mike showed around twenty of us and was a most interesting person. He explained that he originally moved to Bourne to work for BRM but left the company in 1974 I think. He was kicking his heels and was approached by a hillclimber to sort his chassis out for him. I'm sure he said it was either a Brabham or a March but I stand to be corrected. He went on to talk of his F1 comeback with David Purley's LEC CRP1 Grands Prix car. A car I often refer to as a 'back yard special' that still lead a Grands Prix, Zolder 1977 for a glancing moment might I add!

Various hillclimb cars were present in the workshops along with a wind tunnel model of his new creation the Le Mans car to be entered by PiR.

Friendly enough is Mike and approachable. I'm sure if you approached him he would open the factory gates for an organised trip.

Sorry to be off topic.

My dad owned a MP22 for a couple of years, cant remember which chasis number it was though. He bought it from Peter speakman in 1990. The car had a 2.5 hart in it. He maintained that Pilbeam designed the car around a BT38 He sold it a couple of seasons (1993ish) later to Ian stringer and tim Mason i think, There is some run off footage of Tim Mason at Barbon driving the car in the 1994 championship video. Dont know where it is now!

I know one of the time keepers who was in the bus at ruin corner at fintray when ADO had the big crash. He said the bus felt as if it were going to capsize!! not the best situation seeing he was on the top deck!

correction to the above My dad sold the car to Martin Middleton who must have then sold it on to Ian stringer and Tim Mason

Thanks for the information Don.

Have found out that the chasis number on the mp 22 my Dad had was 03

Type Ch No Formula Details
R1 F1172 Mike Pilbeam
R3 F1172 Mike Pilbeam
R4 F1172 Tony Gould
R12 Clubmans Tim Goss (the Lotus 7X development)
R15 Speed Alister Douglas-Osborne (ADO) Development of BT38 Ford BDG
R16 Spec Sal Tony Dickinson – Spaceframe IMP Ford BDA
R17 Spec Sal Tony Dickinson – Lola S2000 Skoda
R18 FAt/F3 Tom Wheatcroft – 4 chassis built – John Bright F3
R19 F2 Tom Wheatcroft – Development of R18 with Ford BDG
R21 F1 David Purley (the Lec F1 project – two chassis)
R22 Speed ADO – further development of R15 to accommodate Cosworth DFV
MP22 Speed Three Chassis built by Dungworth & Elliot allowed to carry the Pilbeam name. They were built up from replica BT38 chassis.
R25 Speed Malcolm Dungworth – development of BT35X with Repco V8
R26 F2 Tom Wheatcroft – evolution of the never completed R24 design – Abarth 6cy engine.
R27 F2 Tom Wheatcroft – evolution of R26 to fit Hart 420R
R28 Speed Martyn Griffiths – evolution of March-Hart 74B
R30 Grp 8 Hexagon – development of Penske PC6 F1 car
MP31 01 Speed ADO – Cosworth DFV engined – WRITTEN OFF
MP31 02 Speed Peter Kaye – Cosworth DFV engined – WRITTEN OFF
MP32 Speed Martyn Griffiths – further development of R28 – aka 78P or PILCH. Car sold to Peter Varley as a roller. Varley installed a Ford YB engine and when he retired sold the car as a roller to the Newton brothers who installed a Ford BDA.
MP33 Speed Chris Cramer – development of March-Ford GA 76A
MP34 F2 Brian Lewis – development of Boxer PR276
MP36 Speed Peter Kaye – development of BT35
MP37 Grp 8 Brian McGuire – Suspension mods to Williams FW05
MP40 01 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Rob Turnbull, then to Ted Williams, then to Tony Brown, then to Brian Walker, then to Steve Allen, then to Martin Middleton, then to Roger Kilty and finally back to Martin Middleton.
MP40 02 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Jim Thomson then to Martin Middleton. Middleton sold it as a roller to John Belsey who installed a Ford YB. Belsey sold it to Graham Henson who in turn sold it to Andy Bennett & Simon Osbourne. Bennett & Osbourne started to install a Rover V8 before selling the project to Damon Milnes who is still working on the installation.
MP42 Speed Neve's F2 car after which it went back to Pilbeam's for upgrades for hillclimbing after Griffiths bought it! Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Dave Harris. Harris then sold the car as a roller to Roy Lane. The car went back to Pilbeams and was upgraded to MP50 specification and a BMW engine installed. Lane eventually sold the car as a roller to Barrie Dutnall who installed a Ford BDA. Dutnall sold it to Dave Abbott who in turn sold it on to Dave Whitehead. After a bigish shunt the car was retubbed as an MP50 and Whitehead installed a BDG.
MP43 01 Speed Dave Garnett (Hart engined Sports Libre) Sold to John Lambert/Peter Kaye with the Hart. They in turn sold it as a roller to Graham Galliers who had various engines including Mitsubishi and Porsche installed before selling it as a roller to Barrie Lines. Lines had a twin turbocharged Rover V8 dropped in.
MP43 02 Speed Jim Thomson (Hart engined Sports Libre) - Dvr Martin Bolsover. When Bolsover moved on Tim Thomson took over driving duties. The car was eventually sold to David Render who campaigned it with various co-drivers inc Ray Rowan. Render sold it to Christian Mineef who eventually sold it back to Render. When David Render retired from racing he sold the car to Mike Sidgwick who had a big shunt. He sold the wreck minus the Hart engine to Rhys Howells who repaired the tub and installed a Rover V8. Howells was killed testing the car at Llandow.
MP43 03 Speed Jim Robinson (Hart engined Sports Libre) with various co-drivers including David Grace. Robinson eventually sold the car as a roller to Charlie & Justin Smith who installed a Millington engine.
MP43 04 Speed Martyn Griffiths – Hart engined Sports Libre - never used and eventually sold on to Ian Fidoe. When Fidoe broke the Hart engine a two litre Millington was installed and Ian was joined by his son Simon.
MP44 F3 John Bright (Toyota engined) Sold to Terry Clifford (see MP45)
MP45 Speed Evolution of MP44 for Terry Clifford – Ford BDA installed. Sold to Don Stratton who later installed a Hart engine. The car was sold by Stratton as a roller to Pete Hannam. Hannam eventually sold the car on as a roller to David Cuff who installed a Rover V8.
MP46 Speed Evolution of March 772 for Alan Newton. Initially Ford BDA powered but then a 6cy Abarth was installed before a Cosworth DFR was squeezed in. When Newton bought the MP58 the car was sold to Jonathan Varley.
MP47 Speed ADO (Cosworth DFV engined). Car sold as a roller to Chris Dowson who installed a 5.0 Repco V8. Charles Wardle joined Dowson in the car. It was eventually sold as a roller to Roger Kilty who installed a Cosworth DFR. The car without engine is now for sale.
MP48 FAt Neil Betteridge
MP50 01 Speed Dave Harris (Hart Engined) Sold to David Render who quickly sold it on to Mike Lane as a roller. Lane installed a Ford BDA. Rob Turnbull bought the car as a roller and installed a 3.0 Judd BV. After a shunt SPA re-jigged the chassis. Turnbull then sold the car to Rob Welch. Welch had a big shunt which required a new SPA chassis. He later sold the car to Bill Bristow who removed the engine and sold it on as a roller to John Forsythe. Forsythe installed a 5.0 Rover V8 – the car is now for sale.
MP50 02 Speed Martin Bolsover (1.6 Ford BDA) {aka MP51} Bolsover subsequently installed a Hart engine before selling it to Jim Thomson for Tim Thomson to drive.
MP50 05 Speed Jim Thomson (Hart engined) also driven by Tim Thomson. Sold to John Whyte whop won the Scottish Hillclimb championship before selling it to Glenn del Medico.
MP50 ? Speed Spare tub acquired by Martin Middleton. Tim Mason and Ian Stringer then had Middleton install a Judd CV and ran the car as MP50M. Stringer dropped out and Tim Coventry joined Mason. After a big shunt David Gould retubbed the car. It was later sold to Alastair Crawford and Paul Wood. The engine has subsequently been removed and the roller is for sale.
MP51 01 F3 Josh Wright (Toyota) Sold to Geoff Hunt as a roller. Hunt installed a Twin Cam Ford and still owns the car.
MP52 FF2000 8 chassis built by Swift at Donington to Mike Pilbeam’s design. Most found their way into speed events.
MP53 01 Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Hart engined) Sold as a roller to Roy Lane who installed a BMW engine. Subsequently Lane sold the car as a roller to Deryk Young who installed a Hart engine. This was subsequently replaced with the plastic Polimotor before the car was sold to John Chalmers. Chalmers subsequently installed a 2.0 Ford BDG – the car is for sale.
MP53 02 Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Hart engined) the car was sold to Murray and Joy Rainey, Murray modified the car for Joy to drive and she still has the car.
MP53H Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Hart Turbocharged engine) the car was sold to John Garnett and was subsequently acquired by David Seaton.
MP54 Speed Richard Fry (Hart engined) bought by John Hunt and ADO. It was subsequently bought by the McBeath Brothers who modified the chassis. The car was subsequently sold as a roller to Roger Cock who has slotted in a Ford BDA.
MP55 84/1 Speed John Hunt & ADO (Cosworth DFV) – WRITTEN OFF at Shelsley
MP56 01 F4 Chris Kite – sold as a roller to Gordon Marston.
MP56 01 Speed Marston firstly installed an 1100cc BDJ then subsequently replaced the BDJ with a 1600 BDA.

:cool:

MP57 01 Speed John Hunt/ADO (Hart engined) Sold to Peter Warren who subsequently sold it to Brian McGinley who sold it on without racing it. Roy Lane bought the car and used it infrequently. Lane then sold it to Stewart Robb. The car is for sale.
MP57 02 Speed Martin Bolsover (Hart engined) when Bolsover left hillclimbing Jim Thomson bought the car. Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey acquired the car in part exchange and ran it for a few events. Then sold it on to John Gray. Barry Goode then bought the car before he to sold it on. The next owners were Graham & Andy Priaulx. They ran it for a while before they to sold it on, this time to Malcolm Orme. Eventually Orme sold the car to Mark Harrison who ran it for a couple of seasons before selling it to Stewart Robb. Robb had a big accident and the car was WRITTEN OFF. This was when he bought MP57-01.
MP58 01 Speed Roy Lane (Cosworth DFL engine) Lane eventually sold it as a roller to George Ritchie. Ritchie installed a 2.0 Hart and was very successful in the Scottish Championship. He sold the car as a roller to Deryk Young & Malcolm Orme. They installed a Judd EV. When Orme retired the rear half of the car was bolted to a Dallara chassis for Young. The remains are still for sale.
MP58 02 Speed Rob Welch (Hart engined) after several seasons Welch sold the car to Jackie Harris. Harris won the British Sprint Championship before selling it on to Andy Kittle. Kittle sold it to Sandra Tomlin and she took many Ladies records with the car. Her son Oliver started to co-drive prior to the car being sold on to Tony Luxton & Bill Hutchins.
MP58 03 Speed Ken Ayers (Cosworth DFL engined) after many seasons of speed events Ayers retires and the car was bought by Graham and Any Priaulx to replace MP57-02. Andy won the British Hillclimb championship and then after a season of occasional events Graham sold the car to Chris Cannell. Cannell used it mainly at Gurston Down in their championship. He sold the car to another pair of Channel Islanders Mike & Nic Gregory. The car was subsequently WRITTEN OFF. The engine found its way into Sidgwick’s MP92.
MP58 04 Speed Paul Edwards (Cosworth DFL engine) co-driven by Dave Harris. Eventually sold on as a roller to John Meredith who slotted in a 5.0 Rover V8. Co-driven by various people including Rodney Eyles. The car was then sold to Patrick Wood who ran the Rover V8 for a season before replacing it with a Cosworth DFZ-R. Woof eventually sold the car to Rob Romeril in the Channel Islands. Romeril kept it for several seasons and recently sold it to John Forsyth.
MP58 05 Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Cosworth DFR engine) highly successful the car was eventually sold to David Grace & Noel le Tissier. Le Tissier was bought out by Richard Brown and eventually the car was sold on as a roller. Alan Newton bought the car and installed another Cosworth DFR, when Newton retired he sold the car to Stewart Robb.
MP58 06 Speed Mark Colton (1.6 Ford BDA engine) the BDA was subsequently replaced with a Hart before being sold on as a roller to Graham Hickman. Hickman fitted a 2.0 Ford BDG initially. An oversized Cosworth DFR was then slotted in prior to Hickman reverting to the BDG. Jim Robinson bought the car as a roller and fitted the Hart out of his MP43.
MP58 07 Speed John Gray (Judd V10 engine) used primarily in sprints; Gray sold the damaged roller after a shunt. Colin le Maitre bought it and had it repaired, he slotted in a Ford BDG. He sold the car to Guy Lees-Milne who still has it.
MP58 08 Speed Roy Lane (Cosworth DFL engine) sold to Simon Durling who had the car retubbed after a shunt at Doune. Subsequently Durling had another big off and the car was WRITTEN OFF.
MP58 09 Speed Tim Thomson – never used. Sold on as a roller to Roy Lane who installed the intended Judd EV. The engine was taken out to 4 litres. Lane still ahs the car.
MP62 01 Speed WORKS car (Vauxhall two litre engine) Drivers included ADO, John Clelland, Ricky Young and Mike Pilbeam’s two sons. The car was sold to Paul & Sarah Brehaut in the Channel Islands. Graham Henson then bought the car before selling it on to Damon Milnes. Milnes subsequently sold it to Donald Webster for use in the Scottish Championship.
MP62 02 Speed Robert Woodside (Vauxhall 2 litre engine) run by the Woodsides.
MP62 03 Speed Roy Millbank (Vauxhall 2 litre engine)
MP62 04 Speed Roger Moran (1.6 Vauxhall engine) subsequently a two litre Vauxhall installed. Car sold on to Tim Thomson who ran it on and off for several seasons. Sold the car on to Kelvin Jouhar & Peter Smith they fitted MP82 suspension to the car before selling it on to Richard George.
MP62 05 Speed Peter & Margaret Blankstone (2.0 Vauxhall engine) they ran the car for several seasons before selling it on to Ken Snailham & Simon Frost. The car was subsequently upgraded with MP82 suspension. Currently for sale at QED.
MP62 06 Speed Simon Durling (2.0 Vauxhall engine) run successfully by Durling the car was sold as a roller to Tony & Shirley Tewson. The Tewsons firstly slotted in a Ford BDA 1600 before moving up to a 2 litre BDG. The car was sold as a roller to Malcolm Wishart who reverted to a two litre Vauxhall engine. The Tewsons recently reacquired the car as a roller and slotted a Ford BDA into it.
MP62 07 Speed Richard George (2.0 Hart engine) Richard and daughter Amanda campaigned the car eventually selling it as a roller to Robert & Peter Ede. The Edes dropped in a two litre Dunnell Zetec. After several seasons they sold the car to Barry Goode.
MP62 08 Speed Peter le Gallais (2.0 Vauxhall engine) the Channel Islander campaigned the car for several season and then sold it to George Bleasdale. It was then used mainly at Harewood until Bleasdale sold it on to Mark and Ann Goodyear.
MP62 09 Speed Nick Fletcher (2.0 Vauxhall engine) used by Nick, wife Helen and eldest son Justin it was the most successful of the MP62s. It was eventually sold to Tony Bianchi who used it infrequently. It was then sold to Andrew Henson who uses it mainly at Harewood.
MP62 10 Speed John Moulds (2.0 Vauxhall engine) ex-racer Moulds ran the car in sprints and hillclimbs and after several seasons sold the car as a roller to the Graeme Wights. The Wights slotted in a 1.6 Ford BDM and young Graeme duly humbled many in the larger engined classes. The car was eventually sold to Hugh Teagle.
MP62 11 Speed Geoff Grime (2.0 Vauxhall engine) sold to Barry Clayden.
MP62 12 Speed John Moulds (2.8 Hart engine) Moulds commissioned this beefed up MP62. It was moderately successful and was eventually sold to Nigel Sillence. Sillence ran it for a couple of season prior to selling it to Andy Kittle. The car went to Northern Ireland until John Whyte bought it and took it to Scotland. He subsequently sold it to Glenn del Medico.
MP62 14 Speed Andy & Mark Coley (2.0 Vauxhall engine) the last of the MP62s the Coleys ran the car for several seasons before selling it on to Dave Mills.
MP64 FRenault Two Complete cars plus a spare chassis were built. An MP62 spaceframe in effect. One has had a two litre Ford slotted in and ran in the South West championship – it is for sale.
MP72 01 Speed Andy Kittle (Judd EV) the Irishman ran the car for several seasons prior to selling it on to Karl Davison. Davison concentrated on the Gurston championship before selling the car to Willem Toet. It formed the basis for his MP88 and the remains are still for sale!
MP72 02 Speed Mark Colton (Judd EV) WRITTEN OFF in the fatal accident at Craigantlet.
MP72 03 Speed Roger Moran (Judd EV) after winning the championship Moran sold the car to Chris Merrick. Merrick ran the car for several seasons and recently sold it on to Sandra & Oliver Tomlin.
MP82 01 Speed WORKS Car (2.0 Vauxhall engine) run mainly for the Pilbeam brothers but also saw Willem Toet amongst others in the driver’s seat. Sold to Paul Ranson who used it to acclimatise to single seaters; Ranson sold it on to John Jones. Jones ran it as is to start with. Subsequently Jones fitted a supercharger.
MP82 02 Speed Robert Morgan (2.5 Millington) run exclusively in Northern Ireland Robert has shared driving duties win son John. The car is currently for sale.
MP82 03 Speed Dave Butler (2.5 Millington) used only a couple of times prior to Butler pulling out due to family commitments. The car was sold to John Leinster and is currently for sale.
MP82 04 Speed Robert Woodside (2.5 Millington) used exclusively in Northern Ireland by the Woodsides.
MP82 05 Speed Bill Morris/Andy McBeath (Hart engine)
MP86 01 Speed Anthony Lane/Barry Goodyear (Judd CV) run until catastrophic engine failure.
MP87 01B Speed Barry Goodyear – converted from MP86 to run the 2.5 Millington engine. Willem Toet shared the driving duties until Jos Goodyear, Barry’s son, qualified to drive an over two litre. The engine has subsequently been upgraded with a turbocharger.
MP87 01 Speed Simon & Jane Harrat (2.8 Hart engine) after running the car the Harrats had the engine replaced with a Vauxhall two litre. The car was subsequently sold to Basil Pitt and is back up for sale.
MP88 01 Speed Roger Moran (Opel V6) run until the V6 proved not powerful enough. The car was subsequently converted to run the Judd KV4 unit. Sold to John Leinster in Northern Ireland.
MP88 02 Speed John Leinster (Opel V6) after success on the hills and the flat the car was sold to Roger Morgan.
MP88 03 Speed Tom New/Simon Frost (2.0 Rover/QED KV6)
MP88 04 Speed George Bleasdale (2.0 Rover/QED KV6)
MP88 05 Speed Willem Toet (4.0 Judd EV)
MP88 06 Speed Geoff Rollason (2.0 Opel V6)
MP92 01 Speed Mike Sidgwick (3.9 Cosworth DFL)

:cool:

Crickey Steve, that's impressive!

Great Job, Steve!!

I thought the MP42 was the Patrick Neve F2 car before going to Harris for 1980 and then to Max Harvey (and Martin Griffiths) for 1981. You have it as a Martyn Griffiths car new. Is that right?

I also have MP41 as a name applied to MP40/001 when Turnbull had it in 1980.

Allen

I thought the MP42 was the Patrick Neve F2 car before going to Harris for 1980 and then to Max Harvey (and Martin Griffiths) for 1981. You have it as a Martyn Griffiths car new. Is that right?

I also have MP41 as a name applied to MP40/001 when Turnbull had it in 1980.

Allen

Steve, I agree with Allen, MP42 was firstly the 79 Earle F2 car for Neve, also used by Betteridge in AFX for one race. Later went climbing with Harris, and so on.

Wasn't the 2nd MP40 referred to as an MP40G for Griffiths, presumably thats what the 'G' stood for. And wasn't one of these cars, the original 40, or 42, later called the MP46.

I thought the MP42 was the Patrick Neve F2 car before going to Harris for 1980 and then to Max Harvey (and Martin Griffiths) for 1981. You have it as a Martyn Griffiths car new. Is that right?

I also have MP41 as a name applied to MP40/001 when Turnbull had it in 1980.

Allen

Allen, missed a blithering line out of my notes!

The MP42 should have started as Neve's F2 car after which it went back to Pilbeam's for upgrades for hillclimbing after Griffiths bought it!

How can I correct my post? :error: (:laugh: You can't, but I can - now done! - JT)
There have been several 'misplaced' model numbers. Turnbull's MP41 being just one. It really was MP40-01 but was in various programmes as an MP41!

:cool:

And wasn't one of these cars, the original 40, or 42, later called the MP46.That was my recollection but I checked my Pilbeam notes and didn't have anything on a MP46. The car that ended up being called MP40/02 was at first called a MP45 (even though that was the name of the F3 car). I also have a note that it was rebuilt on the 03 tub in the early 1980s.

Allen

The MP42 was reffered to after Dave Harris acquired it as the MP46 however it was the March of Alan Newton that was the true MP46.

There is virtually nothing left of the original MP42 after its chequered career.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/swphotographic/images/2-picture1.gif

Willem Toet in the MP88 at Craigantlet in 2005

:cool:

You have been doing some homework Steve!, wee error though

"MP62 12 Speed John Moulds (2.8 Hart engine) Moulds commissioned this beefed up MP62. It was moderately successful and was eventually sold to Nigel Sillence. Sillence ran it for a couple of season prior to selling it to Andy Kittle. The car went to Northern Ireland until John Whyte bought it and took it to Scotland. He subsequently sold it to Glenn del Medico"

My Dad did sell The MP50 to Glenn Del Medico, but the MP62 is still at home, doing the few Scottish Hills, although he took most of last year out!

fascinating stuff though well done mate

Fin

You have been doing some homework Steve!, wee error though

"MP62 12 Speed John Moulds (2.8 Hart engine) Moulds commissioned this beefed up MP62. It was moderately successful and was eventually sold to Nigel Sillence. Sillence ran it for a couple of season prior to selling it to Andy Kittle. The car went to Northern Ireland until John Whyte bought it and took it to Scotland. He subsequently sold it to Glenn del Medico"

My Dad did sell The MP50 to Glenn Del Medico, but the MP62 is still at home, doing the few Scottish Hills, although he took most of last year out!

fascinating stuff though well done mate

Fin

Cheers for that. I will amend my records accordingly.

:error:

Type Ch No Formula Details

MP22 Speed Three Chassis built by Dungworth & Elliot allowed to carry the Pilbeam name. They were built up from replica BT38 chassis.
Dungworth 1980 (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p3867698.html)

(I have this listed as MP23 - 03 as taken from the program)

MP40 02 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) MP40G (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p3867689.html)

MP40 01 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Rob Turnbull, then to Ted Williams, then to Tony Brown, then to Brian Walker, then to Steve Allen, then to Martin Middleton, then to Roger Kilty and finally back to Martin Middleton.

MP40(41)1980(Turnbull) (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p3867693.html)
MP40 1981 (R Fry) (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p4092285.html)
This appears to be the same car colour wise?

MP43 01 Speed Dave Garnett (Hart engined Sports Libre)
MP43 Garnett (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p3867695.html)

MP50 01 Speed Dave Harris (Hart Engined) MP50 Dave Harris (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p4092291.html)

MP50 02 Speed Martin Bolsover (1.6 Ford BDA) {aka MP51} Bolsover subsequently installed a Hart engine before selling it to Jim Thomson for Tim Thomson to drive.
MP51 Bolsover 1981 (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p4092289.html)


I have added some pictures taken in period of these cars based on my limited knowledge and the Programs I have available.

I hope its of some use, a picture is worth a thousands words as they say!

If any of the captions are wrong, I am sure they can be changed.

Nordic, the captions are fine. It never ceases to amaze me that the numbering of chassis types gets so mangled by the owners! You would think they really should know what they have got!

The following is a list of the 'missing numbers' from my previous list:

R2 - a 1961 design for a 3 wheeled 'device' for Tony Gould.
R5 - a 1963 development of Owen Greenwood's Mini-based sidecar racing outfit.
R6 - Not Built
R7 - Not Built
R8 - Suspension development for an Alexis FF1600.
R9 - Monocoque F2 design for Alexis - Not Built
R10 - Design for racing components.
R11 - Not Built
R13 - Not Allocated.
R14 - Not Built
R20 - F5000 design for David Purley, to use Ford GA V6 - Not Built
R23 - F.Atlantic design for Tom Wheatcroft. Not Built but it eveolved into R24/26.
R24 - Development of R23 for BMW F2 engine installation - Not Built
R29 - Design exercise for Yamaha sidecar racing outfit - Not Built
MP35 - Ford Escort racing saloon - Not Built
MP38 - Unfinished research for March.
MP39 - Le Mans car drawings for Alain de Cadenet - Project Abandonded.
MP41 - 1979 Industrial machinery project -also applied 'unofficially' to the second MP40.
MP49 - Formula Super Vee version of MP45 - Not Built
MP59 - Group A Nova project for Vauxhall.
MP60 - Cavalier/Vectra/Calibra 4WD project for Vauxhall.
MP61 - Design for BTCC Cavalier for Vauxhall.
MP63 - Project for motor manufacturer.
MP65 - Group A Astra rally car for Vauxhall.
MP66 - Project for motor manufacturer.
MP67 - Astra Touring car for Opel - Built by MSD.
MP68 - Vauxhall Calibra V8 Thundersaloon for Uniclip Automotive/Bill Shepherd.

That is as far as my information currently extends.
:)

Type Ch No Formula Details
R1 F1172 Mike Pilbeam
R3 F1172 Mike Pilbeam
R4 F1172 Tony Gould
R12 Clubmans Tim Goss (the Lotus 7X development)
R15 Speed Alister Douglas-Osborne (ADO) Development of BT38 Ford BDG
R16 Spec Sal Tony Dickinson – Spaceframe IMP Ford BDA
R17 Spec Sal Tony Dickinson – Lola S2000 Skoda
R18 FAt/F3 Tom Wheatcroft – 4 chassis built – John Bright F3
R19 F2 Tom Wheatcroft – Development of R18 with Ford BDG
R21 F1 David Purley (the Lec F1 project – two chassis)
R22 Speed ADO – further development of R15 to accommodate Cosworth DFV
MP22 Speed Three Chassis built by Dungworth & Elliot allowed to carry the Pilbeam name. They were built up from replica BT38 chassis.
R25 Speed Malcolm Dungworth – development of BT35X with Repco V8
R26 F2 Tom Wheatcroft – evolution of the never completed R24 design – Abarth 6cy engine.
R27 F2 Tom Wheatcroft – evolution of R26 to fit Hart 420R
R28 Speed Martyn Griffiths – evolution of March-Hart 74B
R30 Grp 8 Hexagon – development of Penske PC6 F1 car
MP31 01 Speed ADO – Cosworth DFV engined – WRITTEN OFF
MP31 02 Speed Peter Kaye – Cosworth DFV engined – WRITTEN OFF
MP32 Speed Martyn Griffiths – further development of R28 – aka 78P or PILCH. Car sold to Peter Varley as a roller. Varley installed a Ford YB engine and when he retired sold the car as a roller to the Newton brothers who installed a Ford BDA.
MP33 Speed Chris Cramer – development of March-Ford GA 76A
MP34 F2 Brian Lewis – development of Boxer PR276
MP36 Speed Peter Kaye – development of BT35
MP37 Grp 8 Brian McGuire – Suspension mods to Williams FW05
MP40 01 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Rob Turnbull, then to Ted Williams, then to Tony Brown, then to Brian Walker, then to Steve Allen, then to Martin Middleton, then to Roger Kilty and finally back to Martin Middleton.
MP40 02 Speed Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Jim Thomson then to Martin Middleton. Middleton sold it as a roller to John Belsey who installed a Ford YB. Belsey sold it to Graham Henson who in turn sold it to Andy Bennett & Simon Osbourne. Bennett & Osbourne started to install a Rover V8 before selling the project to Damon Milnes who is still working on the installation.
MP42 Speed Neve's F2 car sold to Martin Griffiths.
MP43 01 Speed Dave Garnett (Hart engined Sports Libre) Sold to John Lambert/Peter Kaye with the Hart. They in turn sold it as a roller to Graham Galliers who had various engines including Mitsubishi and Porsche installed before selling it as a roller to Barrie Lines. Lines had a twin turbocharged Rover V8 dropped in.
MP43 02 Speed Jim Thomson (Hart engined Sports Libre) - Dvr Martin Bolsover. When Bolsover moved on Tim Thomson took over driving duties. The car was eventually sold to David Render who campaigned it with various co-drivers inc Ray Rowan. Render sold it to Christian Mineef who eventually sold it back to Render. When David Render retired from racing he sold the car to Mike Sidgwick who had a big shunt. He sold the wreck minus the Hart engine to Rhys Howells who repaired the tub and installed a Rover V8. Howells was killed testing the car at Llandow.
MP43 03 Speed Jim Robinson (Hart engined Sports Libre) with various co-drivers including David Grace. Robinson eventually sold the car as a roller to Charlie & Justin Smith who installed a Millington engine.
MP43 04 Speed Martyn Griffiths – Hart engined Sports Libre - never used and eventually sold on to Ian Fidoe. When Fidoe broke the Hart engine a two litre Millington was installed and Ian was joined by his son Simon.
MP44 F3 John Bright (Toyota engined) Sold to Terry Clifford (see MP45)
MP45 Speed Evolution of MP44 for Terry Clifford – Ford BDA installed. Sold to Don Stratton who later installed a Hart engine. The car was sold by Stratton as a roller to Pete Hannam. Hannam eventually sold the car on as a roller to David Cuff who installed a Rover V8.
MP46 Speed Upgrades to MP42 for hillclimbing Martyn Griffiths (Hart engine) Sold to Dave Harris. Harris then sold the car as a roller to Roy Lane. The car went back to Pilbeams and was upgraded to MP50 specification and a BMW engine installed. Lane eventually sold the car as a roller to Barrie Dutnall who installed a Ford BDA. Dutnall sold it to Dave Abbott who in turn sold it on to Dave Whitehead. After a bigish shunt the car was retubbed as an MP50 and Whitehead installed a BDG.
MP47 Speed ADO (Cosworth DFV engined). Car sold as a roller to Chris Dowson who installed a 5.0 Repco V8. Charles Wardle joined Dowson in the car. It was eventually sold as a roller to Roger Kilty who installed a Cosworth DFR. The car without engine is now for sale.
MP48 FAt Neil Betteridge
MP50 01 Speed Dave Harris (Hart Engined) Sold to David Render who quickly sold it on to Mike Lane as a roller. Lane installed a Ford BDA. Rob Turnbull bought the car as a roller and installed a 3.0 Judd BV. After a shunt SPA re-jigged the chassis. Turnbull then sold the car to Rob Welch. Welch had a big shunt which required a new SPA chassis. He later sold the car to Bill Bristow who removed the engine and sold it on as a roller to John Forsythe. Forsythe installed a 5.0 Rover V8 – the car is now for sale.
MP50 02 Speed Martin Bolsover (1.6 Ford BDA) {aka MP51} Bolsover subsequently installed a Hart engine before selling it to Jim Thomson for Tim Thomson to drive.
MP50 05 Speed Jim Thomson (Hart engined) also driven by Tim Thomson. Sold to John Whyte whop won the Scottish Hillclimb championship before selling it to Glenn del Medico.
MP50 ? Speed Spare tub acquired by Martin Middleton. Tim Mason and Ian Stringer then had Middleton install a Judd CV and ran the car as MP50M. Stringer dropped out and Tim Coventry joined Mason. After a big shunt David Gould retubbed the car. It was later sold to Alastair Crawford and Paul Wood. The engine has subsequently been removed and the roller is for sale.
MP51 01 F3 Josh Wright (Toyota) Sold to Geoff Hunt as a roller. Hunt installed a Twin Cam Ford and still owns the car.
MP52 FF2000 8 chassis built by Swift at Donington to Mike Pilbeam’s design. Most found their way into speed events.
MP53 01 Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Hart engined) Sold as a roller to Roy Lane who installed a BMW engine. Subsequently Lane sold the car as a roller to Deryk Young who installed a Hart engine. This was subsequently replaced with the plastic Polimotor before the car was sold to John Chalmers. Chalmers subsequently installed a 2.0 Ford BDG – the car is for sale.
MP53 02 Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Hart engined) the car was sold to Murray and Joy Rainey, Murray modified the car for Joy to drive and she still has the car.
MP53H Speed Martyn Griffiths/Max Harvey (Hart Turbocharged engine) the car was sold to John Garnett and was subsequently acquired by David Seaton.
MP54 Speed Richard Fry (Hart engined) bought by John Hunt and ADO. It was subsequently bought by the McBeath Brothers who modified the chassis. The car was subsequently sold as a roller to Roger Cock who has slotted in a Ford BDA.
MP55 84/1 Speed John Hunt & ADO (Cosworth DFV) – WRITTEN OFF at Shelsley
MP56 01 F4 Chris Kite – sold as a roller to Gordon Marston.
MP56 01 Speed Marston firstly installed an 1100cc BDJ then subsequently replaced the BDJ with a 1600 BDA.

:cool:

Corrections to MP42 and MP46.

Steve, re MP37 the mods were to a Williams FW04, not 05, which after the work became the ill-fated McGuire BM01. Any more info on the MP48, the Betteridge FAt car. I don't recall this at all. And the MP34 Boxer developments, were these after Max Harvey took the car over for climbing ?

Steve, re MP37 the mods were to a Williams FW04, not 05, which after the work became the ill-fated McGuire BM01. Any more info on the MP48, the Betteridge FAt car. I don't recall this at all. And the MP34 Boxer developments, were these after Max Harvey took the car over for climbing ?

Nothing on Betteridge's car.

The mods to the Boxer were for Brian Lewis and were some time before Max Harvey bought the car.

Type Ch No Formula Details
MP50 01 Speed Dave Harris (Hart Engined) Sold to David Render who quickly sold it on to Mike Lane as a roller. Lane installed a Ford BDA. Rob Turnbull bought the car as a roller and installed a 3.0 Judd BV. After a shunt SPA re-jigged the chassis. Turnbull then sold the car to Rob Welch. Welch had a big shunt which required a new SPA chassis. He later sold the car to Bill Bristow who removed the engine and sold it on as a roller to John Forsythe. Forsythe installed a 5.0 Rover V8; the engine was extracted and sold seperately whilst the rolling chassis has just been sold to Terry Holmes in the South West (not the one from Chichester!).
:coffee:

I have updated the above entry.

MP58 04 Speed Paul Edwards (Cosworth DFL engine) co-driven by Dave Harris. Eventually sold on as a roller to John Meredith who slotted in a 5.0 Rover V8. Co-driven by various people including Rodney Eyles. The car was then sold to Patrick Wood who ran the Rover V8 for a season before replacing it with a Cosworth DFZ-R. Wood eventually sold the car to Rob Romeril in the Channel Islands. Romeril kept it for several seasons running it mainly in the Channel Islands and at Harewood! John Forsyth has now bougth the car and is campaigning it in the British Hillclimb Championship.
MP58 07 Speed John Gray (Judd V10 engine) used primarily in sprints; Gray sold the damaged roller after a shunt. Colin le Maitre bought it and had it repaired, he slotted in a Ford BDG. He sold the car to Guy Lees-Milne who ran it in sprints and hillclimbs. Martin Elsmore has bought the car and it is again for sale.
MP58 09 Speed Tim Thomson – never used. Sold on as a roller to Roy Lane who installed the intended Judd EV. The engine was taken out to 4 litres. The car is for sale.
MP62 12 Speed John Moulds (2.8 Hart engine) Moulds commissioned this beefed up MP62. It was moderately successful and was eventually sold to Nigel Sillence. Sillence ran it for a couple of season prior to selling it to Andy Kittle. The car went to Northern Ireland until John Whyte bought it and took it to Scotland. The car is currently for sale.
MP88 03 Speed Tom New/Simon Frost (2.0 Rover/QED KV6). Now being run just by Tom 'Big Paws' New
:cool:

I have updated the above entries.

Brothers Peter and David Newton were out at Aintree today in the March/Pilbeam MP28. This has undergone an extensive rebuild and this was their first outing with the car. Father Alan was in attendance to oversee the lads efforts.

Steve,

just found this fascinating history... and I've got a query! I was sure that the Lees-Milne MP58 was related to the Hickman MP58. The cars originally fitted with Hart four cylinder engines by Pilbeam had additional aluminium "pontoons" to support the chassis loads. An "H" was also added to the chassis number (ours was MP58-02H). The pontoons are present on our car 02H and on Jim Robinson's car (the number escapes me but it is definitely an H designation). However, the Lees-Milne four cylinder doesn't have these pontoons and uses a tubular engine frame instead.

If Hickman had fitted a V8 to Jim's car, then these pontoons would have been cut off. I don't remember seeing Jim refitting pontoons when he fitted his engine - and I was sure that when he bought the car he took a Hart out, to put his Hart in. However, for a four cylinder to have been fitted to the Hickman V8 car, an engine frame as per Lees-Milne's would need to be made up.

I may have just added confusion to a well-researched piece!

Sorry,

Oliver

Steve,

just found this fascinating history... and I've got a query! I was sure that the Lees-Milne MP58 was related to the Hickman MP58. The cars originally fitted with Hart four cylinder engines by Pilbeam had additional aluminium "pontoons" to support the chassis loads. An "H" was also added to the chassis number (ours was MP58-02H). The pontoons are present on our car 02H and on Jim Robinson's car (the number escapes me but it is definitely an H designation). However, the Lees-Milne four cylinder doesn't have these pontoons and uses a tubular engine frame instead.

If Hickman had fitted a V8 to Jim's car, then these pontoons would have been cut off. I don't remember seeing Jim refitting pontoons when he fitted his engine - and I was sure that when he bought the car he took a Hart out, to put his Hart in. However, for a four cylinder to have been fitted to the Hickman V8 car, an engine frame as per Lees-Milne's would need to be made up.

I may have just added confusion to a well-researched piece!

Sorry,

Oliver

Judders! I don't know if you have spotted it but there is a Pilbeam MP58 for sale at the present complete with a Rover V8 in situ. It looks remakably like the Guy Lees-Milne car! I think a little more digging is called for!

Thanks a bunch!:rotate:

I believe it is the Lees-Milne car - modified by Martin Elsmore. Note that in the picture on racecarsdirect you can see that the roll hoop is the narrow angle version, subtly different to the wide angle one on our car. The narrow angle one is perched on top of an ali extension which allowed the V8s to be fitted (higher mounting points to the cam covers). Therefore this car was originally built and left the factory as a V8.

Enjoy the research - its a fascinating piece.

As an aside, perhaps you might be able to tell us what aborted F3 project our OMS CF96 came from?

Oliver

MP82 03 Speed Dave Butler (2.5 Millington) used only a couple of times prior to Butler pulling out due to family commitments. The car was sold to John Leinster and is currently for sale.
I think this car went on to Andrew Howell in Australia. It is however currently for sale...

Paul

I think this car went on to Andrew Howell in Australia. It is however currently for sale...

Paul

Thanks Paul I will update my records.:)

Steve

Only just caught up with your amazing records. One minor correction....I own MP40/1, which went Middleton-Belsey-Henson-me in the last few years

Simon Osbourne still has MP40/2. The confusion arises because we've both installed Rover engines - the only difference being that his works and mine doesn't!

Best wishes


Damon

:) Steve

Should also add that my car had a new tub following Tony Brown's accident at Wiscombe, when it was described in Speedscene as 'beyond economic repair'

Roger Kilty has a spare tub for the honeycomb version hidden away in his garage!

Best wishes


Damon

Steve

Only just caught up with your amazing records. One minor correction....I own MP40/1, which went Middleton-Belsey-Henson-me in the last few years

Simon Osbourne still has MP40/2. The confusion arises because we've both installed Rover engines - the only difference being that his works and mine doesn't!

Best wishes


Damon

Thanks for that Damon. I will update my records and when I have accumulated some more changes will re-list the relevant section on this thread.

All the best,

Steve

Wow, what a great resource. The notes on chasis history are virtually identical to mine, but has anyone ever written anything on the desighn and specifications of the cars themselves? Iv'e been trying to look into this for a while, and to be honest the newer cars are quite easy to get details on through the likes of racecar engineering etc. they have covered most of the Pilbeams since the MP72. ( Good articles on Gould as well. )

If anyone has any information on the specifications of earlier Pilbeam's I'd love to hear it, and on that subject does anyone know the bore and stroke of the 420R once you get above 2.0? Iv'e tried estimating it, but I'm sure my numbers are wrong and I can only find details of the F2 version.

Type Ch No Formula Details
MP45 Speed Evolution of MP44 for Terry Clifford – Ford BDA installed. Sold to Don Stratton who later installed a Hart engine. The car was sold by Stratton as a roller to Pete Hannam. Hannam eventually sold the car on as a roller to David Cuff who installed a Rover V8.

The above car is now being run by Frank Byrnes in Southern Ireland. Frank made a foray to Craigantlet at the week-end.

Also the Ex-Moran MP88 that John Leinster had been running has now been sold to Stewart Robb.

I'll put in all the Updates & Corrections and re-post the NEW list shortly.

:)

Hi Steve

Are you in touch with Stewart Robb? He ran in libre with a March 75B in 1979, a March 782 in 1980 and a March 75/782 in 1981. Possibly all three were the same car but it would be good to find out - and find out where it came from.

Cheers

Allen

Hi Steve

Are you in touch with Stewart Robb? He ran in libre with a March 75B in 1979, a March 782 in 1980 and a March 75/782 in 1981. Possibly all three were the same car but it would be good to find out - and find out where it came from.

Cheers

Allen

I was chatting to Stewart on Friday and Saturday over in Ulster.

I'll ask the questions and get back to you off-line!

:cool:

Hi Steve,
I'll see if i can add a little more confusion to the story of my old Pilbeam MP58-07. To my knowledge the car was originally set up as a V8, as when i purchased it from Graham Hickman it came with the engine mounts for it. It was also supplied with a Hewland fg box with was far too big for it. Now i can not remember if Graham had run this Pilbeam with a V8 or his previous one. Graham ran the car with a 2 ltr bda for 2 seasons before i bought it. I used to sponsor him, as his local supplier of fine ale and food( The Lion at Clifton-on-Teme) well it was good then!!!!!!!!!!!! i followed him up to Doune while he was running a 2 ltr, he failed to score as his fancy starter was inop, needless to say i made sure when i had it it was on the button!!!! Any way i digress. I ran the car with a 2ltr bdx on webber alfa injection, i used to sets of side pods, one set full length originally designed for V8 the other a much smaller pair with no downforce effect. The engine that i used i sold to The Squire brothers who are big into rallying MK2 escorts, the tub, rolling chassis and box were sold seperatly. i hope i havn't confused the issue too much. If you want any other info please feel free to contact me.
Regards
Guy

This is my very first entry to this Forum, so I am an absolute novice to single seaters!

Question though:

I intend to move from tin top hillclimbing to pre 85 single seaters.

I want a V8 (prefer Rover) but have seen the great MP58 for sale on Motorsportads like several others I'm sure.

The owner I know from my past racing the 911 on the hills, and he thinks the MP 58 is a 1987 car.

Is the MP58 design dated before then?

When was the car introduced as a design rather than Pauls's car?

Thanks,
Graham.

This is my very first entry to this Forum, so I am an absolute novice to single seaters!

Question though:

I intend to move from tin top hillclimbing to pre 85 single seaters.

I want a V8 (prefer Rover) but have seen the great MP58 for sale on Motorsportads like several others I'm sure.

The owner I know from my past racing the 911 on the hills, and he thinks the MP 58 is a 1987 car.

Is the MP58 design dated before then?

When was the car introduced as a design rather than Pauls's car?

Thanks,
Graham.

That particular car was built during the latter part of 1990 and first appeared in 1991.

MP58/01 was built for the 1987 season but the design was available for several years.

If you want specifically Pre 1985 cars then they fall into two categories:-

1) The V8 Rover engined cars that competed in era:

The Alan Payne/Paul Gething Anson SA4
The ex-Merrick/Penrose/Cannell Ralt RT1

2) The older cars that you could try and track down and then fit a Rover engine into:

The MP47 still with Martin Middleton & for sale I believe.
The ex-Mason/Crawford MP50 which I understand Alistair still has.

Either way you would be faced with a doubly difficult task; first to track down the car and second to slot in a Rover V8 assuming you also get the gearbox with the chassis!

There are other Historic Hillclimb cars that are not V8 powered which are currently on the market for a reasonable price - some of which are complete and ready to rock n roll!

:cool:

Thankyou for the facts!
Such a pity that MP58 will not 'qualify'.
I really wanted something V6/V8 rather than a 4 pot, but maybe I will have to settle for a 4 cylinder.
The engineering is not an issue as I have resources and skills needed.

There is always the Brabham B40/Pilbeam rolling chassis.

Thankyou again, Graham.

Thankyou for the facts!
Such a pity that MP58 will not 'qualify'.
I really wanted something V6/V8 rather than a 4 pot, but maybe I will have to settle for a 4 cylinder.
The engineering is not an issue as I have resources and skills needed.

There is always the Brabham B40/Pilbeam rolling chassis.

Thankyou again, Graham.

Graham, beware of the so called Brabham BT40/Pilbeam! This is one of the three MP22 chassis that Malcolm Dungworth constructed. He had REPLICA Brabham chassis constructed and it is one of these that is the basis for the MP22. There is no way that this car is a Brabham!

Dependant on your budget there are a lot of suitable cars out there. I would suggest that when you find something that interests you post the details in the General Motorsport History section to get an appraisal of the vehicle.

:relax:

hey all,

just wanted to say that andy kittle now owns the pilbeam mp40 of demeon milnes and has so since about 2 weeks after he posted :) but the season is over now and i think we can say he went out with a bang smash snap... but bones heal... so does mp40's :)

Going back a bit, I just thought I'd add a bit about MP43's:

MP43-002 (this is how the chassis no. is written): Rhys Howells was killed 26 April 2006 at Llandow testing the car with a twin-turbo Rover Wildcat engine (it hadn't raced in this guise). The remains of car were sold to Rodney Thorne and front and rear ends were re-used with a new Pilbeam chassis (005) along with the Rover V8 from Thorne’s Westfield SEight hillclimb car. The car first appeared in 2007, and Thorne has decided to retain chassis plate ‘002’ on the car (confirmed in discussion at this morning's Longleat hill climb).

The 'Fidoe' car (referred to in this thread as 'MP43 04'): According to Rodney Thorne, this was built-up from a spare Pilbeam tub, but I have a photo of it wearing chassis number 'MP43-003'.

Thus, I think we can confirm that -001 is Barry Lines' twin-turbo car, -002 (-005) is with Rodney Thorne and -003 is with the Fidoes. Thus, is -004 the Charlie/Justin Smith car?

I'd appreciate any comments.

Hope this helps.

Going back a bit, I just thought I'd add a bit about MP43's:

MP43-002 (this is how the chassis no. is written): Rhys Howells was killed 26 April 2006 at Llandow testing the car with a twin-turbo Rover Wildcat engine (it hadn't raced in this guise). The remains of car were sold to Rodney Thorne and front and rear ends were re-used with a new Pilbeam chassis (005) along with the Rover V8 from Thorne’s Westfield SEight hillclimb car. The car first appeared in 2007, and Thorne has decided to retain chassis plate ‘002’ on the car (confirmed in discussion at this morning's Longleat hill climb).

The 'Fidoe' car (referred to in this thread as 'MP43 04'): According to Rodney Thorne, this was built-up from a spare Pilbeam tub, but I have a photo of it wearing chassis number 'MP43-003'.

Thus, I think we can confirm that -001 is Barry Lines' twin-turbo car, -002 (-005) is with Rodney Thorne and -003 is with the Fidoes. Thus, is -004 the Charlie/Justin Smith car?

I'd appreciate any comments.

Hope this helps.



Thanks, I'll incorporate the changes and post an updated list in the not to distant future.

:relax:

My limited observations are:-

MP43-002 Hart 2.5 David Render 1986 and 1988

MP43C-04 Millington 2.6 Charlie Smith (and Jim Robinson) 1999 and Charlie Smith 2005.

Hopefully, this confirms the recent posts.

Updates are in the pipeline and should be completed in about a week.

At last I have got round to posting this link:

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/12820/Pilbeam_MP431.html

It is also listed in the adverts for Cheshire Classics in Classic & Sports Car.

A further update on this car.
I have now bought it, less engine, from Barrie Lines. Tempting as it was to stick the 2.8 Hart Turbo from my MP53 into it, I have realised the futility and pointlessness of that move, however, "we have a plan". It involves a big German V8 and a lot of head scratching, fabrication and luck. It should make it for next season. If it starts to work out I will reveal more in due course.

A further update on this car.
I have now bought it, less engine, from Barrie Lines. Tempting as it was to stick the 2.8 Hart Turbo from my MP53 into it, I have realised the futility and pointlessness of that move, however, "we have a plan". It involves a big German V8 and a lot of head scratching, fabrication and luck. It should make it for next season. If it starts to work out I will reveal more in due course.

Sounds like you are building a sprint car rather than a hillclimber?

No, it is definitely intended for Hills !!
Perhaps I should have said "A big capacity, lightweight German V8".
The car was built originally as a Hillclimb car, and I believe that is how it should stay ! I also prefer Hills.

Deep, deep joy - sounds a cracker: there aren't enough Sports Libre cars out there and this will be a really welcome returnee in whatever guise.

Roll on 2009. Now where are those TKD V8s?

Roll on 2009. Now where are those TKD V8s?

Rumour has it one will be shortly appearing in a Dallara!

To bring it up-to-date, there is a new VdeV UK endurance racer run by Lanan Racing. I saw it at Brands recently. It is MP98-01-08 (Honda 2.0 engine)

I now finally have a BMW S62 engine - this is the 5 litre V8 engine from an M5.
I have found people in the USA who will supply a Dry Sump Kit, Management, Vanos Elimination Kit etc etc. They reckon we should be on for about 480 - 500 bhp, and rev to 8500.
Now I have a few months with a hacksaw and hammer to glue all this lot together, and I can't wait for next season !