Brabham BT 2

Hi everyone.
I have just acquired a 22 year barn find Brabham BT2that needs identifying. It was last raced in Texas and earlier in Florida. I would love to talk to anyone associated with a Doc Wiley, Bill W.E. Anspach, Bud Bakels or anyone from that area with knowledge of Jr races. There is of course no S/N but from the stories it may have been the one Frank Gardener brought to US in 1962/63. (Ref Duncan Rabagliati)
This is a real car with many original parts and original construction technigues. Some very odd details which may help identify it as to s/n
Any body help further. Wayne Mitchell www.dogrings.com 760-942-9170 ( Calif)

Wayne,
Re. my message on the Brabham site,re. the adjustable rear ride height set up.
As I said FJ-8-62 had this, and this was Franks works car,BUT the other driver at the factory was Tasmanian Gavin Youl, who started his season a little later than Frank.

Nominally FJ-1-61 , was the MRD.
Thence FJ-2-62 , was to be Franks car , but it was sold to Briggs Cunningham in the U.S.A. afaik.
So FJ-3-62 , I bet became Franks car for early in the season ,certainly this was Gavin Youls car , as at the end of the season he returned to Australia with it and it is still here , complete with chassis plate.
FJ-4-62 , don't think I know , could be yours.??
FJ-5-62 went to France , Jean Moench. spelling?
FJ-6-62 to the Late Bob Olthoff with a BMC 1098 , then an 1100cc Ford and ended up as a road car in S.E.Asia, before coming to OZ in the 80's , sold a few years ago to/via Len Selby U.K.
FJ-7-62 , ????
FJ-8-62 , as stated Franks works car, and my theory is Frank started the season in FJ-3-62 , that then went to Gavin Youl , and Frank built himself a new one.
FJ-9/10/11/ ,don't think I know ,as I am doing this all from memory.
FJ-12-62 , ex factory 28-12-1962, via Frank Gardner for Alec Mildren Racing for customer David Walker.

Lets see what anybody else can add , or correct if I got it wrong .

Bryan.

Wayne ,

Have you checked both posts on the Brabham site , as on one I advised that you need to get a copy of Sports Car Graphic [ U.S.A. magazine ] July 1962 , as this has a superb track test with great photo's to assist you.
Bryan.

David McKinney, can we do a bulk purchase on memory chips if you decide that is what is required.

FJ-5-62 should I think be to Jo Schlesser, and maybe Moench either another chassis no. or -5 after Schlesser.

Sorry Bryan.
All my intimate records on the BT2s went to Col Haste when I sold FJ-12-62 to him.

Not sure I can add much
•I had Geoff McClelland’s 1963-64 car as “2 or 3”, so I guess 3 is right?
•FJ-4-62 went to the delightfully name Auto Inter-Course team and was driven by Jean Moench 1962. Sold to English-resident Klaas ‘Jimmy’ Twisk 1963, Ray Moore for F3 1964 but killed at, I think, Oulton Park. Apparently went to Australia, brought back to UK c1990 by John Harper, restored by Peter Denty, raced since 1997 by Simon Ham
•FJ-5-62 - the second Intercourse car, raced by Schlesser 1962-63 (including F1 in 1963)

Which car did Jon Davison race in 1969?

AFAIK only one BT2 went to USA new, though of course there might have been another later

David,

Yes , I too loved the name Auto Inter-course.
Had never been aware of FJ-4-62 coming here out of period.
Geoff McClelland purchased FJ-3-62 from Gavin Youl.

Jon Davidson ran the ex Greg Cusack , ex Henk Woelders BT6 FJ-15-63. Now in the hands of Peter Johnson in Sydney.

Do you agree that the new BT2 to the states was for Briggs Cunningham.?

Bryan.

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Do you agree that the new BT2 to the states was for Briggs Cunningham.?

Don't know.
I have the Cunningham car listed without a number, and nothing alongside car #2. And the timing fits
Thanks for the other confirmation(s)

No one has mentioned the BT-2 that Ernie DeVos of Montreal raced to victories in Canada and the eastern US in 1963. The car was offered for sale in the March, 1964 issue of Canada Track & Traffic. Unfortunately, the serial number was not mentioned in the ad. Maybe it went south.

You wouldn't be the Wayne Mitchell who raced in British F3, would you?

I have just spoken to Frank Gardener about the BT2. His recollection is that they had no S/N and it was done in a clandestine manner since they were only 1/2 mile from Cooper's and Jack was still working on becoming World Champion. He recollects Briggs Cunningham getting a car and he went on to build another one for himself. The first few chassis were built by him and Peter Wilkins. The subsequent chassis were made by Buckler Cars and electric iron welded. Franks work was all nickle bronze welded including the first chassis drawn up by Ron T which was iron welded by the vendor and nickle bronze welded as they modified it to fit the engine. It was a while before arch Motors became involved. He figure chassis number 2 would be it since 3 was his next car and it is documented at this point. Will advise the details as they unfold. Wayne Mitchell

Mike:
Sorry for being a year late in replying. Been busy researching and working.m
Yes I am the one. I remeber Ernie DeVos racing that BT2 and wish I had paid more attention to it. After being raised and educated as a Mech Engr in Manitoba, I raced Quebec region until I left for USA in 1967 and then UK for 3 yrs F3. When broke financially i returned to Calif and been here ever since. This BT2 is an interesting car. Anybody happen to have detailed close up picture of DeVos Car?
Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Wayne et al:

I believe there is a photo of DeVos sitting in a FJr in the Mid-Ohio 1964 yearbook, so photo was probably taken in '63. I'll look for my copy as soon as I can. This may show some details of the cockpit.

Roger

I was correct about the photo, but it is in an almost horizontal plane so there is little detail inside the car. There is also one other shot fo the grid forming up in three wide rows, w/ the Brabham on pole. This was a suppost race in 1963 for the USRRC.

Today we only use two wide rows, even after the track was widened in the early 90s. I'll try to scan these photos tonite.

Roger

Wayne T. Mitchell? The king of Formula C? Driver of Lotus 22, Brabham BT21B and even a Brabham BT29?

Tell us more...

Owner of Brabhams since 1968, BT21B purchased from Frank Williams until latest BT2 purchased unrstored from Louisiana in 2004 and 7 in between. What more do you need. I need help searching history of this car. Most salient features are: 4 2" hole for instruments plus the Smiths Tachometer hole and the rear shock inner mounton a rocker arrangement to change ride height in about 2 minuted that pivots on the on the bolt that anchors the upper link to chassis. I need pictures of known cars from the era other than a photo at speed at 500 yards(Meters). Will trade stories from the era for help??? How is that for an offer? Cheers Wayne Mitchell

I have been in contact with anyone who expresses knowledge or has photos of the BT2 in the FJr era. I was in UK for the 1000 cc era and lived in a void as far as Juniors were concerned in Canada. I was also a Mech engr student and as close as we came to racing cars was Sports Car book we shared.
I am specifically looking for photos of motor mounts on chassis and what bolted between the block and thses mounts. Boy would a cutaway be helpfull. The chassis on my car has original mounts, damaged, but everybody tells me the bolts always go transversely across the chassis not longtitudinally for and aft as my car is set up for. (Good aircraft practise.)

Wayne,
Early in this thread I advised re. Sports Car Graphic 1962 , did you find a copy.
Bryan.

Bryan: Yes, I have a copy of the John Blunsden Track test in the July 1962 SCG.
it is helpful to some degree. I also have found an Autosport March 8 1963 which has cutaway of a BT6. Autosport Feb 9 1962 has a synopsis of the 1961 season of F Jr which is helpful. I am trying to see if there was a similar article for the 1962 season which would be helpful as far as history. Still looking for an answer of the 4 2" holes in dash plus tach and the rocker ride height at rear as a definite indication of which car it is. The dash should tell since the holes are exactly symetrical and the welding is original. I am working on chassis and have just about finished it. It needs resolution of the motor mount issue with the bolts on mine in line with chassis not transverse as all othe Brabham cars I know.

Wayne,

As per earlier in this thread , I owned and rebuilt FJ-8-62 , now in the states, it had the rear rocker ride ht. as per yours , FJ-12-62 which I also owned did not , and I simply can't remember about FJ-6-62 , now for sale with Len Selby, the other car here is FJ-3-62 and I think it did, which would make sense as this was Franks 1st car before going to Gavin Youl and Frank building up FJ-8-62 for himself.
Reading your notes on discussion with Frank , A.M. numbers cannot be on a car earlier than a BT14/15/16 series as they were not involved at that stage.
I stand corrected , but believe the majority of early cars were Progress Chassis[ Frank Coltman ] manufacture after the Buckler range .

I have recently been contacted by the new owner of FJ-8-62 in the U.S . to supply info. and photos, which distresses me greatly as this was researched to the nth degree and all notes etc. went with the car , all to be lost by some idiots.

If you require his email please PM me .

Re. chassis plates , when last seen FJ-8-62 still had it's brass plate on dash with 4 rivets.

Bryan.

I was not comfortable with some of the info, so went digging.

All via Black book 1962-1964 , no chassis numbers in this book, however can make some very good conclusions.

Very much to my surprise the first ref. to a BT2 is with Dick Thompson at Sebring 23-3-1962.
Next up is Brabham Racing at Oulton Park 7-4-1962 with Frank Gardner , should be FJ-3-62.
The next new entries are Jo Schlesser and Jean Moench both in same race at Montlhery , 29-4-1962.Chassis -4 and -5 .
Next is Brabham Racing with both FJ-3-62 and FJ-8-62 at Silverstone for Gardner and for the first time Gavin Youl , 12-5-1962.
Then at Cadwell Park enters Bob Olthoff [ Team Springbox ]BT2-Ford. 20-5-1962. [ FJ-6-62]

Then at Bridgehampton , 3-6-1962 , enter Briggs Cunninham .
Next up , in which car ???? but entered by Brabham Racing is Denis Hulme at Crystal Palace , NOTE , only Brabham Racing entry for the meeting.
By now Olthoff's car has gone to BMC power .
At Road America [ Elkhart Lake ] enters Hap Sharp , 16-6-1962.

At Reims 1-7-1962 we have Gardner, Youl, Schlesser and Moench , while on the same day Olthoff is at Snetterton.

At Watkins Glen ,Driver Augie Pabst , entrant Briggs Cunningham. 14-10-1962.

At Silverstone , 6-10-1962 , we have F.C. Ward,

However all the other U.K./French owned cars still appear with their respective owners/drivers .

We can account for [ probably] , the following.
FJ-2-62 [ Thompson / Sebring / March 62.]??????????????
FJ-3-62 ,Works/ Gardner at first then Youl.
FJ-4-62 , France ,
FJ-5-62 , France.
FJ-6-62 , Olthoff / Ford then BMC.
FJ-7-62, could be a second car to the U.S.A. [ Hap Sharp or Briggs Cunningham , or an entry by Briggs for Sharp.]
Could also be the car in the U.K. for F.C.Ward.
FJ-8-62 , Works / Gardner after early car to Youl.
FJ-9-62, ?????????
FJ-10-62, ???????
FJ-11-62 ,?? but as a real weird one this chassis plate is supposedly fitted to Bib StillwellsBT4[ IC-2-62 ] and the number is reported in correspondence into 1970 by Stillwell, I have seen the letter , but also reported in Historic Racing Cars in Australia [ new MK2 version just released ]
FJ-12-62 , new via Alec Mildren Racing [ Australia ] for customer David Walker ex factory [ info from works about 25 years ago]26-12-1962.

Into 1963 Phillipe Martel appears early with a BT2 then goes to a BT6 , [ a note I have advises he wrote off the BT6 , but maybe it was the BT2 ]
And David McKinney advises the Moench car goes to Klaas Twisk [ The Tulip Stable]
F.C. Ward still has his in mid 1963.

That is the full list of people with these cars in the black book till the end of 1963.

To the few who are not aware FJ-1-61 was the MRD and no FJ-1-62 appears to have been numbered.

Bryan.

Bryan . I have 9-62 as being Geddes Yeates,10-62 as Ernie De Voss,11-62 Fiddle Carnet No for IC-3-62(F1-4-62) Bib Stillwell BT4. 12-62 Mildren delivered 28-12-62

Ted,
Thanks, it was 28-12-1962 for FJ-12-62 .
FJ-9-62 , Geddes Yeates , U.S.A. or U.K. ??
FJ-10-62 , I suspected Ernie de Vos would appear on the radar screen, Lola MK5 in the U.S. in 1962.
FJ-7-62 , F.C.Ward in the U.K. or a second car to the U.S.A ????

Bryan.

Geddes Yeates and F C Ward were both UK-based

Thanks , David .
What I am wondering out loud is ,
1]Thompson / Sebring , is this actually the Cunningham car.??..
2]If no to above , I would be o.k. with the tie up of Hap Sharp/Augie Pabst/ Cunningham, but that then gives us two cars in the U.S.A. in 1962.
3] Yes , Ward was only in the U.K. races , but also into mid 1963 , what ch.no. is this.???

Answering myself , we seem to be one car short , only if FJ-2-62 does not get tied between Thompson to/ for Cunningham collection.

As Ted has advised -9 and -10 to owners , if Ward had -7 , we then have -3/-4/-5/-6/-8/-12 all tied up , if the Thopmson/Cunningham combo is inncorrect we are a car short by my reasoning.

Hope you can follow me .

Unless , and it would not be the first time ,we have two FJ-11-62 , one as a car , and one as a convenient chassis plate.

What a tangelled web we weave.

Bryan.

I might be about to "throw a large spanner in the works" over a long mis-identified car.Cant say more at the moment.

Sorry, David I meant to say UK based.

Will await developements with interest.
However do you agree with my reasoning??

Geddes Yeates ????
I remember as a driver in the late 60s but I'm dubious that he raced in 63-64 in FJ. Maybe therefore an entrant/owner for someone else or not the first owner?
RAP

For the record only,
My old FJ-8-62 has now gone to Dave Zurlinden of Salinas , California and still retains it's chassis plate.
Dave has contacted me and I will try and help where poss.
Bryan.

I believe Dick Thompson was a Cunningham driver in 1962 - my records have him sharing the Brabham wheel with other team members.
But I don't think Hap Sharp was a Cunningham man

Bryan .It seems to make sense at the moment

Ted: We need photos of the BT2 dashboards if available. Mine has 4 small guage holes and looks original welding on sheet metal dashboard. It would solve the question of which car is which since I understand all others I have questioned seem to have only 3 2" diam guage holes. Motor mounts may also yield a clue. It seems as though we need to keep this pot boiling to resolve the question before us. Wayne Mitchell

Wayne.Original motor mounts would be interesting as to whether it was BMC of Ford powered. I will look to see what dash shots I have.

Ted: Did you receive photos of chassis with engine mounts and dashboard dimples and guage holes showing. Emailed directly to you. I am assuming the holes are for guages for Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Water Temperature and Fuel Pressure. Not using the later combination Water Temp and Oil pressure found on later cars. Awaiting your comments. And anyone else who has knowledge of these things. Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Wayne . Photos arrived OK.Its obviously a BT2 as we all know.The spanner I was talking about earlier in the thread was that the "ex Roy James train robber BT6 that was sold to NZ in the 60s is in fact a BT2 so which car is that ??????? and where is FJ-1-63 ??????

Was FJ -1-63 the Roy James car? If it really was a BT2, Then perhaps it is BT-1-62 or obviously 1 of the others missing from the Bryan Millar list. By my record of what has been disclosed on the thread, it could have been 1,2,7,9 or part of th 11/Carnet/Stillwell. This leaves my car to be one of these, less the one identified as Roy James's car. Anyone have photo of dash area currently of the purportedly James car? 2 with dimples 6 with tubes and sheet reinforcement only. This area is most obvious ID of model. Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Wayne. I havethe photos of the NZ car and its a BT2 just like yours !!! I am looking through my negatives for the BT2 on the Brabham stand at the Racing Car Show,

Ted: Any progress with photos from Racing car show of 1962 of the BT2 on display?
Season is over so there may be time now. Thanks Wayne Mitchell

Was FJ -1-63 the Roy James car? If it really was a BT2, Then perhaps it is BT-1-62 or obviously 1 of the others missing from the Bryan Millar list. By my record of what has been disclosed on the thread, it could have been 1,2,7,9 or part of th 11/Carnet/Stillwell. This leaves my car to be one of these, less the one identified as Roy James's car. Anyone have photo of dash area currently of the purportedly James car? 2 with dimples 6 with tubes and sheet reinforcement only. This area is most obvious ID of model. Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Re-reading the Mike Lawrence book about Ron Tauranac I see that they never bothered too much about type numbers in the early days of MRD. Therefore it would be likely that chassis number FJ-1-63 just meant it was the first chassis Formula Junior built in 1963. If it is a BT2 type chassis instead of a BT6 type chassis, which has apparently been established by Ted Walker, then it seems to be an addition to “our” list of BT2 cars. These start at chassis FJ-2-62 and end at FJ-11-62 (10 cars) plus FJ-1-63 i.e. a total of 11 cars (plus the original MRD). This tallies with the count given in the Lawrence book (although he says 11 cars were "built in 1962").
For those of you who like to keep track of these cars, I am now the owner of chassis FJ-6-62 (ex-Olthoff etc.). – bought in July 2005 entirely thanks to this thread! At least Wayne got those photos he wanted!

it would be likely that chassis number FJ-1-63 just meant it was the first chassis Formula Junior built in 1963. If it is a BT2 type chassis instead of a BT6 type chassis, which has apparently been established by Ted Walker, then it seems to be an addition to “our” list of BT2 cars. These start at chassis FJ-2-62 and end at FJ-11-62 (10 cars) plus FJ-1-63 i.e. a total of 11 cars (plus the original MRD)
Just the teeniest hitch with that theory, Marcus
The car which purports to be FJ-12-62 is not the same as the one which raced in 1963 as FJ-1-63 :)

I need a summary

Chassis Original owner Current owner
FJ-2-62 Cunningham (US)
FJ-3-62 Gardner (UK) – Youl (AUS) Australia
FJ-4-62 Jean Moench (F) Simon Ham (UK)
FJ-5-62 Jo Schlesser (F)
FJ-6-62 Bob Olthoff (SA) Marcus Mussa
FJ-7-62 ?
FJ-8-62 works/Gardner (UK) Dave Zurlinden (US)
FJ-9-62 Geddes Yeates (UK)
FJ-10-62 Ernie De Vos (Can)
FJ-12-62 David Walker (AUS)
FJ-1-63 ?
Notes
FJ-3-62 to Gavin Youl (AUS) then to Geoff McClelland.
FJ-4-62 then to Klaas ‘Jimmy’ Twisk 1963 - Ray Moore for F3 1964 (killed?) ... Australia ... Harper c1990 – Simon Ham 1997.
FJ-8-62 later rebuilt by Bryan Miller
FJ-10-62 Ernie DeVos of Montreal raced to victories in Canada and the eastern US in 1963. Advertised CT&T March 1964.
FJ-11-62 was a BT4

Mysteries
FC Ward (UK)
Second US car
Who drove the Yeates car?

Here's my version - E&OE
Brabham BT2
FJ-2-62 Briggs Cunningham USA (various drivers)
FJ-3-62 Gavin Youl UK and Australia, later Geoff McClelland and others, now Graeme Brown, Queensland
FJ-4-62 Inter Auto-Course/Jean Moench. Then as on your list
FJ-5-62 Inter Auto-Course/Jo Schlesser
FJ-6-62 Bob Olthoff then via Frank Williams to Far East (L C Kwan, S Y Tam etc). Later to Australia and in 2000 to UK. Now Marcus Mussa
FJ-7-62 Earl Jones - your second US car?
FJ-8-62 works/Gardner, then to Australia with Alec Mildren, Len Deaton, Barry Collerson. Bryan Miller 1980s. Ken Hastings 1990s. Now John Streets, USA
FJ-9-62 Geddes Yeates
FJ-10-62 Ernie de Vos
FJ-11-62 apparently never a BT2
FJ-12-62 Scuderia Veloce and Alec Mildren in Australia: drivers Dave Walker, Ralph Sach, Frank Gardner, Kevin Bartlett. Then Mike Champion, Phil West, Brian Page and others. Bryan Miller 1980s, now Colin Haste
mystery 1 F C Ward
mystery 2 car imported to NZ 1965, believed to be the ex-James BT6 but apparently a BT2 of unknown origin

Does anyone know which car Mike Harrison raced in Historic events from 1976 (or earlier), and still had in 1990?

FJ-9-62 Geddes Yeates

I previously queried this and am still dubious. The F1R FJ fact book has no mention of Geddes Yeates in the 1962-64 period. As suggested, he could of course be the owner with someone else driving but it would be good if Ted Walker could confirm the source/reliability of this attribution. At 31/1/65 Brands F1R attributes this chassis to Roger Mac. I spectated at that meeting and noted the entry as a BT2, no doubt based on what the commentator said. The car appears in a photo in Autosport, according to the caption (race no not readable). Could this be the Frank Ward car?

The Mike Harrison car was never identified.Wayne Im on the case in the next week or soI assume that FJ-11-62 was a "fiddle No" to get a Tasman car imported as a junior. Does ANYONE have a photo showing the plate on the dash ????????

FJ-7-62 Earl Jones - your second US car?

David, how did you pick up his name? Is he the one who ran in USRRC in the 60's?

Sorry - it's like that in my files - can't recall how it got there!
I've always presumed it was the same man

I had the following info from Duncan Rabagliati, earlier this year:

• FJ-10-62 Ernie Devos had BT2 FJ-10-62 in 1962 (in Canada) The car went to Hap Sharp [ 63/64] and then Earl Jones [ 65]

I thought the name Earl Jones rang a bell. I think in fact it may be the other way around, i.e. Hap Sharp then DeVos – as Sharp is shown as the entrant and driver of a BT2 at Road America on 16/6/62. Also DeVos seems to be still driving a Cooper in 1962. When others drove the Cunningham car they were always entered by Cunningham – for this reason I feel Sharp must have owned chassis 10, and that this is the 2nd US car.

There is another BT2 racing in the USA (apart from the Zurlinden car) – Wayne was going to try to find out about this car. Presumably Wayne’s car will turn out to be the other – I think probably it is the Cunningham car, in which case this other car is chassis 10. The photos of Wayne’s “car” show an extra instrument hole (compared with my car) and this tallies with the photo of the car used for the Blunsden test which said he drove the first BT2. The additional instrument was a fuel pressure gauge. The “other” car is definitely a BT2 (I have seen photos, now even I know what to look for!). It even has the inboard rear brakes like mine. Actually just looking over those photos again I am wondering if it is not the Mike Harrison car – the roll-over bar stay is the same (back to the rear chassis member, this of course being a “modern” addition). Mysteriouser and mysteriouser.

Coincidentally another forum whose name cannot be mentioned carries a thread which says that Ernie DeVos was killed in March this year in a cycling accident (like Wollek)...

we do not generally allow links to other forums. Exceptions may be made for something relevant to the discussion, but please check with the Moderator of the forum before you post.

Marcus, if it's relevant to this thread, you may post a link!

We have the advert in March 1964 for DeVos and also, assuming it's right, this race at Harewood Acres in July 1963 (http://www.formula2.net/FJ63_W120.htm) so the Hap Sharp dates don't look right if the car did go from DeVos to Sharp.

Allen

I have the 1964 Mid-Ohio racing annual, which of course has photos from 1963 season and DeVos is shown racing in the FJr race, support race for USSRC, in a Brabham. It is the program book from my first ever spectating visit to Mid-Ohio, May 1964, as a guest of one of my high school teachers.

Roger

I wouldn't know how to post the link anyway! It was in a thread on Peter Broeker, who was connected to DeVos which leads to an article about DeVos' accident in a US newspaper website. Looks like a conspiracy to stop us finding out more!

But seriously it does look like the other car in the USA is the ex-Harrison car, as apparently the present owner bought it from somebody who bought it from Peter Denty. And the present owner does not know much about its history. Maybe Denty will know?

related riddle....I told recently that a fella in Canberra purchased a FJ from the Fremantle Motoring Museum and has it stored near here....could be a Brabham...could be an Elfin....

But seriously it does look like the other car in the USA is the ex-Harrison car, as apparently the present owner bought it from somebody who bought it from Peter Denty. And the present owner does not know much about its history. Maybe Denty will know?

Peter Denty confirms that this car (now in EC USA) is indeed the ex-Mike Harrison car, which Harrison bought in about 1979 from Jeremy Bouckley. It had no plate. So this could be chassis 7 or 9. Any ideas? Maybe somebody can ask Bouckley if he remembers anything about it.

He'd be contactable via Curborough wouldn't he?

Didn't Bouckley compete in FJ in the 1960s? He could have had that car for years.

I'll see if Duncan R. can contact him.

There is a ten-tenthser who knows JB - I've been waiting for him to show up and post on this thread (again)

Duncan R. says the following:
Ernie De Vos had BT 2 FJ 10 62 New - --Hap sharp [63/64] – Earl Jones [ 65 ] -- de Vos must have got this v late in the season, because he raced the second hand BRJ 38 [It was A Mk 3 rear engined Lola] in 62 to become Canadian champion

FJ 7 62 went new to Howard S Cole in Texas, so unlikely to be that one for Harrison

Most likely is FJ 9 62 – sold new to Frank Ward – after Roger Mac had it, Tony Dean part exchanged it with Rodney Bloor, and he sold it on to J Mansfield – in 1966 it was owned by Geddes Yeates [ who later had a Mk 5 Lola ]

He could have spoken up earlier! – so it looks like three cars went to the States:

3/62 to Cunningham
7/62 to Howard Cole (this looks like the car that Sharp drove in 1962 – both being from Texas)
10/62 to DeVos ... anybody know Earl Jones?? I mean know as in being able to ask him what he did with the car...

Duncan gave me a fax number for JB - I will try. Would be nice if he bought it from Geddes Yeates - funnily enough I think I raced against him (Yeates) in Formula Ford in 1970!

Sorry, 2/62 of course for Cunningham

Duncan says he has the following from works records of the 60’s:
MRD – chassis FJ/1
FJ-1-62 – to Briggs Cunningham
FJ-2-62 – to J.Reid for John Youl
Etc. as we have already

The ex Roy James BT2 is in New Zealand with the chassis plate FJ-13-62. I shared a pit with it and raced against it last weekend. It was apparently the ex Denny Hulme car that won the Boxing Day Brands Hatch race and was purported to be the prototype BT6 but it wasn't ready in time. It ran in the NZ National series with a 1500cc engine for many years but has recently been converted back to 1100cc FJ mode.

The ex Roy James BT2 is in New Zealand with the chassis plate FJ-13-62. I shared a pit with it and raced against it last weekend. It was apparently the ex Denny Hulme car that won the Boxing Day Brands Hatch race and was purported to be the prototype BT6 but it wasn't ready in time. It ran in the NZ National series with a 1500cc engine for many years but has recently been converted back to 1100cc FJ mode.
That's the accepted history, Roger, but it does have a few drawbacks
1) Photographs show that Hulme's Boxing Day Brands Hatch car was indeed the prototype BT6
2) Roy James's car was not a BT2, but a BT6 (the Hulme/Brands car)
3) It seems unlikely any car numbered FJ-13-62 was ever built

I was aware there were different versions of the car's history David. The NZ version is that it originally replaced a BT2 that Denny wrote off in early 1963. It was purchased from James (after he went on a compulsory holiday) by Billy Housego who bought it to NZ. It first ran here in 1965 (as far as I can tell as a BT2). I suppose if it is not a BT2 then it could be the prototype BT6? By the way David, you may recollect that a while ago we discussed my Lola Mk 2 BRJ 1. It's now is the process of restoration but an interesting aside has come to light. In John Blunsden's 1961 book it states that one of the Fitzwilliam Mk 2 cars was taken by Ferrari for development purposes and had a Fiat engine fitted. It appears my car was entered at Circuit de Reims-Gueux and at Nurburgring in July 1960 as a Lola Fiat. On stripping the car down the engine mounts appeared to have been drilled to match a Fiat engine (I compared them with the Fiat in my Taraschi) and an additional Italian oil temperature gauge has been fitted. I would like to contact Ferrari archives to see if they have any info but I have no contact details for them.

According to Duncan’s records, the Boxing Day Brabham was chassis FJ-1-63, and it was sold to Roy James. In 1964 it was bought by Mike Lawlor and raced by John Miles in 1964 and 1965. In 1966 it went to Ray Thackwell, which is presumably how it got to NZ. There is no such car as FJ-13-62.
It should be easy to see if it is a BT2, but I thought Ted Walker had already verified that this was the case (post #44). The instrument bulkhead on a BT2 is a sheet welded on to two tubes, with holes for the instruments, switches etc. (like a Lotus 22, except down the sides the holes are not completely drilled out). The one for the BT6 is just chassis tubes with the instrument panel tacked on the top (like a F3 car). The BT2 normally will have inboard rear brakes, although some of them will have been converted to outboard, and of course this particular car may be a development of the BT2 anyway.

Sorry to ask a dumb question but were the terms BT2 and BT6 actually used in period of were they, like at Coopers, applied aretrospectively?

Allen

Marcus
That was the history I believed until recently (before and after discussion with Duncan)
However, it now seems certain that the car Thackwell took to NZ, and which is still there, was a BT2.
Some of us are trying very hard to get to the bottom of all this!

Just found about this site and thread from Wayne Mitchell earlier this week (thanks, Wayne), and glad I did. While I already have had the pleasure of "e-meeting" a few of you, it's a pleasure to now meet up with the rest.

Thanks to John Streets and all those before him who kept the car alive and well, I do indeed have the honor of being the current caretaker of FJ-8-62, and am very proud and pleased to do so. I was in high school when Gardner and Youl were screaming around in this car, and read John Blunsden's Sports Car Graphic article on the Brabham Junior at that time (and everything else I could read of F-Jr., F1, sports cars, you name it) -- never dreamt for a minute someday I would get to restore and race one of them, especially the particular one I have. What a joy!!

I have to say you guys are really working hard at solving the 11-built-where-are-they mysteries, good job! I'm very keen to see the final list, assuming it can ever be called "final"... Meanwhile, a car that seems overlooked is the BT2(?) being raced in the Eastern US by Bob Goeldner. See the Nov/Dec 2005 issue of Vintage Motorsport, where there's a pic and story of the General Racing Rolex Lime Rock event on pp 92 & 93. I've been meaning to try and contact Bob to learn more about him and the car, but haven't done so yet. Interesting on the caption of the photo (top, p93), refers to it as a '63 BT2. We all know the '63s were BT6s, right?, so maybe a typo, maybe what? What is its chassis # and ownership history, if anyone knows?

Last, I think it was Marcus commenting on BT6 vs BT2 differences. A couple more I've noted on ones local to here are top-pivoting pedals vs floor-mounted, inboard roto-flex couplings on the halfshafts (still u-joints on outboard, but now un-splined shafts), and the tailpipe/exhaust being inside the bodywork vs outside in the little recess on the tail. Also, the 6s all appear to have rear anti-roll bars, and all early pictures of BT2s I've seen show no rear bar (I'm presently not using one for that reason, but may consider trying it later).

That's my 2 cents for now!
Best to all,
DZ

THe owner of FJ-13-62 has provided me with a number of documents from his almost 20 year relationship with the car. Some of the background came from discussions he had with Denny Hulme regarding the car. The story apparently was that it ran with Denny at the 1962 Brands Hatch Boxing Day meeting and was intended to be the prototype of the 1963 Brabham FJ. It was a modified 1962 chassis with altered front suspension mountings, wider track etc. It also was powered by a development Holbay Ford engine with a five bearing set up. It was subsequently sold to Roy James and then to Ray Thackwell (but consigned to Billy Housego for importation to NZ) after being advertised for sale in the 14 Feburary 1964 edition of Autosport. An interesting aside is that when it arrived in NZ, Customs required the car completely stripped including the chassis end tubes sawn off looking for hidden bank notes due to it's Roy James connection. It has a long documented history in NZ. The story (evidently) regarding only 11 BT 2s being made but this car being number 13 is that FJ-11-62 became a 1963 Intercontinental BT-4 (Bib Stillwell), FJ-12-62 was the eleventh BT-2 built and FJ-13-62 was the prototype for the BT-6. There was an article written in 1992 by Denis Lupton profiling FJ-13-62 of which I have a copy. A current photo of FJ-13-62 can been seen at: http://www.groundsky.co.nz/0509WEB/PHOTOS/R09/I09L1924.JPG

Meanwhile, a car that seems overlooked is the BT2(?) being raced in the Eastern US by Bob Goeldner.

Hi Dave,
The car now owned by Bob Goeldner is the ex-Mike Harrison car I was talking about earlier. It certainly seems to be a genuine car but we are trying to discover which one. We have traced it back to Jeremy Bouckley, and even a bit beyond, and the car we think it is (i.e. chassis 9) can be traced forward to Geddes Yeates, however the junction has not yet been made.

Some other names have appeared thanks to Alan Putt, mostly people in the Monoposto Racing Club which used to run FJ in the UK, and who have owned this car (this was before Jeremy Bouckley) : they include J.Aspinwall (1969), Paul Hull, Andrew Hull and Peter Henry (the last three owning it together in the 70’s). Do these names ring any bells?

"Duncan says he has the following from works records of the 60’s:
MRD – chassis FJ/1
FJ-1-62 – to Briggs Cunningham
FJ-2-62 – to J.Reid for John Youl
Etc. as we have already"

I've lost the plot - who and where does "J Reid for John Youl" fit in?
Time for a new summary !!
Richard

How about ?:
FJ-1-62 is a new number which goes to Briggs Cunningham ... Wayne Mitchell (to be confirmed)
FJ-2-62 is the number previously attributed to Briggs Cunningham but now apparently should read J.Reid (John Youl being the driver - Gavin Youl's brother) – not traced now
FJ-3-62 Gardner, McClelland … now in Australia
FJ-4-62 Moench ... Simon Ham
FJ-5-62 Schlesser (not traced now)
FJ-6-62 Olthoff ... Marcus Mussa
FJ-7-62 Howard S. Cole (Texas) (not traced now)
FJ-8-62 Gardner ... Dave Zurlinden
FJ-9-62 Ward .... Bob Goeldner (to be confirmed)
FJ-10-62 DeVos, Sharp, Earl Jones (not traced now)
FJ-11-62 not a BT2
FJ-12-62 Mildren
FJ-13-62 or FJ-1-63 Roy James ... now in NZ

Happen to know that FJ-3-62's present owner is Graham Browne, yes, in Australia, after Nick McDonald (also Aussie) did beautiful, correct restoration.

On Marcus's list:
John Youl never raced a BT2 (or any other Brabham that I can recall)
But Gavin Youl did

And I still suspect the NZ BT2 is something other than #13....

A guy named Tom Claridge out of the SanFrancisco area raced a Brabham FJ that I recall as a BT2. How does that fit in the scheme of things?

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! I really must get a life :laugh:

Just spoke to Tom Claridge re his ownership of a car. He stated he has never owned a Brabham and may have driven one about 15-20 years ago owned by Dick James of California. I know Dick and believe his car was a later car. I will report after contacting him. There is a rumor of another BT2 or parts in Calif which I am following up and will report as it unravels. wtmitchell@att.net

My memory is usually not that bad!
It would have been 15 years ago--at the last race at Westwood. I will find the programme and check.

The out of print Des Mahoney book "Trio at the top" has B/W photo of Denny in an FJ Brabham on the grid talking to his wife at Crystal Palace 1963 where he finished 4th. The car is light blue I would think and has the number 63 on the nose. The text states that he "borrowed" the car for the event.

Further to my post yesterday, I believe the caption in the book mentioned is incorrect. I recently did a comprehensive research effort for Graeme Browne the current owner of FJ - 3 - 62 based entirely on published material that is around. Entries to my competition summary for the project lead me to believe the year was actually 1962 and that it was indeed Gavin Youl's works car that Denny was driving. As evidence Gardner was racing his works car on the same day at a different circuit.

11th June 1962. Crystal Palace Entrant: Brabham Racing Organization. Driver: Denis Hulme.
B.A.R.C. Championship, Rd 7. Car # 63. 15 laps Final
Heat 1 5th place Final. 4th place.

11th June 1962. Mallory Park. Entrant: Brabham Racing Organization. Driver: F.Gardner.
(2000 Guineas Trophy - Formula 1 support race) Car # 66. 30 laps.
3rd place.

That definately makes it 1962 , as in 1963 Frank Gardner was driving the BT6 for Ian Walker Racing.

Bryan.

Thomas Gelb ran a #66 Formula C "BT2" at Elkhart Lake 27 July 1968. Nothing more known - about the car or the driver.

It could of course be a typo for BT21.

Allen

FC Ward wins a clubbie Junior at Silverstone in a Brabham at the end of the 1963 season (AS 20 Sep 1963 p389) and is mentioned in the text as Cliff Ward, not Frank Ward.

And Roger Mac makes his single-seater debut in a Brabham at Mallory on Boxing Day 1963. Did Ward and Mac both have FJ-9-62?

And Roger Mac makes his single-seater debut in a Brabham at Mallory on Boxing Day 1963. Did Ward and Mac both have FJ-9-62?

According to Duncan R. the answer is yes they did.
Allen, have you any trace of the Jo Schlesser car (FJ-5-62) after 1963?

Marcus

Sorry Marcus - nothing at all after 1963.

Allen

HI Wayne
cleaning out the offic the other day and found file on your car.

will try to post some info from it this week.
might ring a bell somewhere with the other like minded ones.

Everyone---Wayne should be given a medal for retriving this car.
4000+(?)mile round trip
to the high swamps in louisiana
with enough cash to be arrested for being a drug dealer
fought alligators-held off the locals-shot down mosquitos
all to load a complete bt2 roller into a pick up truck!

my frustrations in identifying the car other than Bill Anspatch(still living in florida)led to me probably never restoring the car.

also this car was never raced in texas i dont belive.thats where i found it and it was obvious that the crash damage that Bill did at sebering(?)was never repaired to race worthyness.

I will also try to find the mans name who has what i belive are the brakes,sump tank and gearbox for this car on his bt-6--Waynes(x-me) bt2 has the bt-6 parts on it.

Wayne--did the bt-6 oil tank go with car or is it still here somewhere?
these 2 cars crossed paths(and parts) somewhere in history.
tryed to trade parts at one time but he wouldnt do it.
he did send me tracing of oil tank--did you get this drawing when you picked up car?

I did and still do belive this is the 2nd car and also the one in sports car graphic.the clue if memory is correct is the fuel pressure gage on the dash.
my understanding is only one car had this gage.

David

to late to edit---that should say first car(not bt-1)

Wayne
if my memory is still working(kemo changes things)
the car has light blue paint under the dark blue?

That's the accepted history, Roger, but it does have a few drawbacks
1) Photographs show that Hulme's Boxing Day Brands Hatch car was indeed the prototype BT6
2) Roy James's car was not a BT2, but a BT6 (the Hulme/Brands car)
3) It seems unlikely any car numbered FJ-13-62 was ever built

Hi David,
I would dearly like to see some photos of the car Denis drove on boxing day 1963, at Brands Hatch.
Have you seen the article on page 88 of the March 1963 edition of Motor Racing? Near the middle of that page, in brackets, the author states:-

(Incidently, Hulme, who is Jack's works FJ driver for 1963, was using an interim-model Brabham on that day).

Also on page 78 of "The Train Robbers" by Piers Paul read, it is written that Roy James wrote off the first (BT6 ??) Brabham FJ and then obtained another. The first car only appeared in James's hands at Eltham park.

By conversation only, i.e. not written down, I have heard that Roy james appeared at the Brabham factory pleading for another chassis, but that no new ones were available, so he settled for an ex works "prototype"; presumed to be the interim BT2/6.

I do have a letter from Graham McRae stating that the car he drove was numbered "FJ-13", and Denis said that they at times would glue a number on a car to facilitate entrys etc. Also not all cars had #'s stamped into the chassis!

David or Ted, please email or post copies of any boxing day photos of Denis' car.
I am intrigued by the history of the car that I have guardianship of.

Sorry to join this thread so late.
Regards,
John W Rapley.

Welcome John!

The ex James car went to Ray Thackwell (father of Mike) 65/66 and 66/67and then to GP McRae (Graham McRae of F5000 fame) who ran it in 67/68. McRae then built himself the first of his own singleseaters using the the engine/gearbox etc from the Brabham. The BT 2 (?) then passed through several hands, actually used as a FF for some time before ending up where it is now.

The ex James car went to Ray Thackwell (father of Mike) 65/66 and 66/67and then to GP McRae (Graham McRae of F5000 fame) who ran it in 67/68. McRae then built himself the first of his own singleseaters using the the engine/gearbox etc from the Brabham. The BT 2 (?) then passed through several hands, actually used as a FF for some time before ending up where it is now.
That's certainly the widely accepted theory
Only hitch is that James's car was a BT6, and the Thackwell/McRae car a BT2:)

Hi David,
I still believe that the only explanation is that the NZ car is the second Roy James car. That fits with Denis running a prototype BT6 at Brands Hatch on Boxing day and the car being basically a BT2.[There is a period magazine article which states that the chassis was an "interim" one, while Jack made a press release from South Africa saying how pleased he was with the new BT6.]
One of the differences that I noticed is that the rear upper shock mounts are lower than the standard BT2, and the later shocks were indeed slightly shorter.
I would welcome any further information on the history of the Roy James car, and any photos of Denis' car from that Boxing day meeting at Brands.
Thanks for your input eveyone.
John Rapley.

John

Did the press release specifically give the model number 'BT6' or did it just refer to the new 1963 F/Junior? I'm trying to find out exactly when MRD started using these BT numbers as the records I've been able to get hold of suggest they were retrospectively applied to the 1962 cars.

For example, the distinction between the BT4, BT7 and BT7A is a problem as one car was built half way between the BT4s and the BT7As and was given the same style of chassis as a BT7. Even as late as 1965, MRD built a pair of cars that don't fit anywhere in their BT model system. I've long suspected that the second Roy James car was just an evolution of the 1962 car towards the 1963 car and nobody at MRD had 'BT2' or 'BT6' in their mind as they were building it.

Allen

As well as the magazines quoted by John Rapley,further articles are in
Autosport January 4, 1963, P14 & p15,which says D.Hulme in a new 1963
Repco Brabham won the feature F. Junior race,and broke the outright lap
record,using a 5 bearing camshaft experimental Holbay engine.
Motor Racing, February 1963,P43,has a photo of the car and says it is the interim model,with different rear bodywork and rear radius rod pickup points.
Incidentally,Graham McRae had dinner at my home some time ago,brought along his scrap books and photos,and he was sure the car was a BT2.
chassis number FJ-13-62,the interim model,he had spoken to all the people involved ,and had all the fact's at his disposal.
Graham was also good enough to let me photocopy his photos,and some of his results.
Cheers Denis

I have just posted some details on the 1962 Boxing Day Brands Hatch meeting where Denny Hulme won the event.

These are on the BT6 chassis archive file and when you read them you will see why there and not here.....

How nice of Denny to make an owner feel good about his car in that way. However, I wouldn't give the merest gram of weight to that as historical evidence. Denny put 'his' engine out of 'his' car into the 'spare' BT6? Sorry, it was an experimental Holbay in a prototype BT6. And there was barely any snow that day. Need I go on?

Allen, do you think Denny was the type of guy that would want to make an owner feel good about his car? Granted the engine/gearbox reference does not make sense, but I can only quote what I was told, inaccuracies et all.

Could not the "prototype" BT6 as referred to, not have ended up a BT6 off the assembly line in late December with the "prototype" tag attached to it just for that meeting, and when returned to stock have become chassis 4 ?

If there was a prototype what happened to it? Would Ron have discarded it after it had won a race?

The second line of the above post should read :-

does not make sense, but I can only quote what I was told, inaccuracies (if any) et all.

Ed

Bear in mind that the car was not referred to as a prototype BT6, it was referred to as "the interim model". Autosport just called it a works 1963 Brabham. I'm not sure MRD would have a "production line" as we would think of one and cars may well have been built up to order so I think it's much more likely that MRD had a development car than Hulme nicked something of a production line.

All I'm saying is that I'd take that story with a large pinch of salt.

Hi Dave,
The car now owned by Bob Goeldner is the ex-Mike Harrison car I was talking about earlier. It certainly seems to be a genuine car but we are trying to discover which one. We have traced it back to Jeremy Bouckley, and even a bit beyond, and the car we think it is (i.e. chassis 9) can be traced forward to Geddes Yeates, however the junction has not yet been made.

Some other names have appeared thanks to Alan Putt, mostly people in the Monoposto Racing Club which used to run FJ in the UK, and who have owned this car (this was before Jeremy Bouckley) : they include J.Aspinwall (1969), Paul Hull, Andrew Hull and Peter Henry (the last three owning it together in the 70’s). Do these names ring any bells?

John Aspinall is credited by Motoring News in 1969 as running a BT6 'ex Sports Motors' which would at least tie in with the suggestion that this car went from Roger Mac to Geddes Yeates via Tony Dean and Rodney Bloor

Did Sports Motors ever run a BT6?

Chris

Thomas Gelb ran a #66 Formula C "BT2" at Elkhart Lake 27 July 1968. Nothing more known - about the car or the driver.

It could of course be a typo for BT21.

Allen

I can tell you that this was indeed a BT2, because Mr Gelb, who won the Cen Div SCCA title with the car in 1968 has just sent me a photo of the plate, which he still has with his racing trophies, full documentation of his racing career and a good deal of correspondence about the car from MRD. He also sent me some photos of the car and it looks like a BT2 to me.

Now I am not going to tell you what the chassis number says just yet, because the howls it will provoke mean that I will need to see that correspondence anyway to prove the car's provenance.

However, would it be correct that Brabham BT2s had a brass plate rather than the black bakelite or foil one that later went on the dash board of BT18s and the like?

Chris

Chris,

Absolutely correct re. brass plate , my old car still had FJ-8-62 fixed to dash panel , 4 rivets through each corner of brass plate.

Bryan.

The Gelb car:
The plate reads BRABHAM, Racing Development Ltd, Surrey, England, FJ.1.62
Car was purchased in autumn 1965 from David Pabst, brother of Augie Pabst both of whom had raced it earlier that year.
The car was said to have come from Briggs Cunningham in 1964 or early 65.
Gelb sold it late 1968 [the car is for sale in Autoweek in Nov 68] though he hasn't yet answered my question about who the buyer was.
He then went out and bought a new Chevron FB which he crashed at Mosport in 69. After that he quit and concentrated on business, eventually becoming a VP at Harley Davidson.

Am getting all the documents scanned and sent to me on CD and will post a selection once they are with me.

Chris

So that would be the Dick Thompson car at Sebring 23 March 1962 presumably. Same car raced by Augie Pabst at Watkins Glen that October.

So that would be the Dick Thompson car at Sebring 23 March 1962 presumably. Same car raced by Augie Pabst at Watkins Glen that October.
And now being restored by Wayne Mitchell?
Marcus

I missed Richard's citing of Duncan R's records, suggesting that there was indeed an FJ.1.62 and that it went to Cunningham.

I have a picture of the car from the rear in reasonable close up, on its trailer, which might allow an expert to assess whether the rocker modification had been made to the rear suspension. It's a bit dark around the shock absorber top mount but there might be something there. All I need is Wayne to get in touch...
Coming on the CD from Wisconsin is copies of all Tom Gelb's correspondence with Brabham about the car, including details of set up and the modifications that he made. That may tell us more.

Chris

Chris et all:
I am anxiously awaiting the info from Tom Gelb to see if we can verify the details of that car with the one I have. Thanks to everyone for keeping up the search for more information. My car has rear " Rockers" to raise and lower the upper end of the shocks. It also has 4 2" dash board holes plus the Smiths tach hole. All this in an integral metal dash which is original according to the welds.
Cheers to all who are just trying to get the facts.
Wayne Mitchell

That makes perfect sense , back on post # 23 here , I was suggesting we may have one too many entities in 1962 in the USA given the info. we were trying to work from.

The words on the chassis plate are identical to FJ-8-62.

Coming on the CD from Wisconsin is copies of all Tom Gelb's correspondence with Brabham about the car, including details of set up and the modifications that he made. That may tell us more.

Chris

Did you ever receive the CD?
All the best
Marcus

Marcus

Yes I did, with a huge amount of material, which I am unsure how to post.
Maybe we should think about doing for BT2s what the Hon AF has done for later Brabhams on ORC. [Allen what do you think?]
I've been slowly working through this stuff, but have had heavy work commitments last couple of months.

Chris

All yours Chris. I've set it up at http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/brabham/bt2/ and set up some dummy text as a guide.

If you can't remember how to log in, drop me an email. I'm happy to add in any pictures for you as it's a bit tricky.

Allen

Just noticed a BT2 project for sale at:-

http://www.fastroadandtrack.co.uk/frat/showad.php?adid=6050

Are there any BT2's left of unkown whereabouts ?

Ed

The advert doesn't seem to claim that it is a genuine original BT2. It says the frame is original but says it's history isn't known. Unless the owner could come up with more, this would have to be regarded as a continuation car.

Its not a BT2, never was and never will be!

Its not a BT2, never was and never will be!

It's a complete sham!
Marcus

I wonder if I could offer a response to the comments made on this forum by Simon Hadfield and Marcus Mussa concerning the Brabham BT2 project which I have for sale?

Firstly, and as alluded to by the rather more considered opinion of Allen Brown, I am not claiming anything about this car – other than that it is an original Brabham frame, together with sufficient original and reproduction parts to construct a rolling chassis with gearbox. It has no traceable history, no chassis number and no frame number. I am not suggesting that anyone could lay claim to an FJ-….-62 identity, and no such implication was made in the advertisement. Again, Allen is correct in stating that unless substantial new evidence came to light – which is frankly unlikely given the passage of time – it would have to be regarded as a continuation car.

Secondly, I find it surprising that Messrs Hadfield and Mussa feel qualified to comment on the project without viewing it or at the very least contacting me for some further information. Simon/ Marcus – you would be welcome to call in any time to view the chassis, and I would be interested to hear your thoughts about it.

Finally, and being the owner of another BT2 referred to elsewhere in this thread, I have no wish to muddy the waters of BT2 histories yet further. It seems to me that there are enough qualifications and suppositions relating to individual chassis to last a life time – in many cases put forward by those who have considerably more to gain out of this situation than I do. I am not a car dealer, restorer or motoring historian. I am – heaven forbid - an enthusiast who is a keen supporter of the Formula Junior movement in general, and the Brabham marque in particular.

Simon Ham

Welcome Simon. I hope this won't be your only post here - there are many mysteries to be solved.

Having seen the photos on the other advert my opinion is considered and I stand by my comments.

I, for one ,would be interested in seeing the other ad. photos that Simon Hadfield mentions.
Denis

I apologise if this is considered off the BT2 topic, but I think it is important for some of us to understand what the terminology is here.

I note a couple of references to "continuation chassis"

Could someone define what this would be, and would it have any rights of its own ?

Also I have seen reference to an "ACP chassis" Does anyone know what this stands for ?

I apologise if this is considered off the BT2 topic, but I think it is important for some of us to understand what the terminology is here.

I note a couple of references to "continuation chassis"

Could someone define what this would be, and would it have any rights of its own ?

Also I have seen reference to an "ACP chassis" Does anyone know what this stands for ?

In my opinion the only person who can produce a “continuation chassis” is the original builder or designer (like say Lola now with the T70). In the case of Brabham, as the marque does not exist any longer, I would think this can only be Ron Tauranac. So if Ron Tauranac produces a replica BT2 chassis then he can advertise it as a “continuation chassis”. If anybody else does it (without the approval of RT) then I feel it should be treated in the same was as a fake Louis Vuitton handbag or Rolex watch, and be steam-rollered! In fact I am amazed that the FIA ever came up with the idea of allowing “replicas” to be given FIA papers – what right have they to make such a decision? They are encouraging people to do something illegal! Incidentally I have raised this question with our “local” delegate and he just said it wasn’t the FIA’s problem!

The other solution would be for somebody who already owns a BT2 to buy this chassis and keep it as a spare – if the original chassis is destroyed it could be another way of “repairing” it.

All the best
Marcus

High, Phil West here. I just found the sight. Not too big on computers.

Wow, some of you blokes really know your stuff.
I know a bit about FJ 3 62. I bought it from Geof McClelland in 66. The car was pretty good, but we had to build a new engine for her. We used a Cosworth A6 cam, but all the manifolds, & cylinder head work was ours.

I finished every race I started in her, & set lap records every where we raced, except Calder, where it was wet.
I think all those records still stood when they stopped offering classes for them. I wonder if any of the historic boys have gone faster.

Geof had developed the car some what, & we went quite a bit further. By the time we had finished, she was a really quick, & completely reliable car, & very succesful.

Some highlights were,
3Rd outright 67 Bathurst 100.
2Nd outright 67 NSW Formula 1.5 championships.
3Rd outright 67 Victioian Formula 1.5 championships
There were no Formula 2 championships, something about encouraging us to move up to higher classes. It would have helped to have something to crow about, like an F2 championship, when looking for sponsors.

With your knowledge, perhaps you could tell me if the old girl is still around.

Phil West

Welcome Phil. According to David McKinney's earlier post, it's now with now Graeme Brown in Queensland.

Some highlights were,
3Rd outright 67 Bathurst 100.

Phil West

Welcome Phil.

Very impressive effort to get an 1100 up to 3rd outright there. Unfortunate that it wasn't a Gold Star round that year, but it was the next when you went a couple of spots better in your 2.5 litre Gold Star debut.

You happen to be the subject of my favourite motor racing photo:
http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/item-3312public.html?cache=no



The 2.5L CAMS Gold Star Series 1964-70 (http://members.optusnet.com.au/dandsshaw/)

Marcus

Yes I did, with a huge amount of material, which I am unsure how to post.
Maybe we should think about doing for BT2s what the Hon AF has done for later Brabhams on ORC. [Allen what do you think?]
I've been slowly working through this stuff, but have had heavy work commitments last couple of months.

ChrisI've brought that page up to date: http://www.oldracingcars.info/marques/brabham/bt2/

Andrew and Chris have logins to alter that page if they wish. I've assigned it to Chris so it says at the bottom it was last updated by Chris - it wasn't, it was me this time.

Allen

Alan
Some history of FJ-3-62 follows-
1962 Works car for Gavin Youl (built at MRD by Frank Gardner)
1963 to Geoff McLelland NSW
1966 December ( Log Book dated 20/1/67) to Phil West NSW
Many successes mainly in NSW
1968 to Mike Barker (bought 22/3/67) Ringwood,Vic. Raced regularly in
Victoria with some success
1970 to Peter Roach , Vic ,again, used regularly.
1972 to Doug Hicks Vic, fitted with Toyota Corolla engine,as Aust.F3
changed to under 1300cc,and raced consistently by Doug,also by
Peter Jones, when Doug was unavailable.
1974 to Alan Smith, Tasmania, to be driven by Geoff Bantick,very
successful in Tasmania.
1993 In November, Denis Lupton purchased the car, for Jim Russell of
Victoria. The car was shipped back to Victoria by Brambles,arriving
21/1/94, and a full restoration commenced,
to restore the car back to original FJ configuration.
1995 To Nick MacDonald, who completed a great restoration,and
raced the car in Historic Formula Junior most successfully,
achieving many race wins and lap records.
2003 to Graham Brown, Queensland, who has maintained the car
in immaculate condition,and competes regularly all over
Australia. Graham still has the car, in 2008.
Alan, I have many photos and race records of FJ-3-62,
throughout it's life, let me know if you would like any.
Denis

Alan
Some history of FJ-3-62 follows-
1962 Works car for Gavin Youl (built at MRD by Frank Gardner)
1963 to Geoff McLelland NSW
1966 December ( Log Book dated 20/1/67) to Phil West NSW
Many successes mainly in NSW
1968 to Mike Barker (bought 22/3/67) Ringwood,Vic. Raced regularly in
Victoria with some success
1970 to Peter Roach , Vic ,again, used regularly.
1972 to Doug Hicks Vic, fitted with Toyota Corolla engine,as Aust.F3
changed to under 1300cc,and raced consistently by Doug,also by
Peter Jones, when Doug was unavailable.
1974 to Alan Smith, Tasmania, to be driven by Geoff Bantick,very
successful in Tasmania.
1993 In November, Denis Lupton purchased the car, for Jim Russell of
Victoria. The car was shipped back to Victoria by Brambles,arriving
21/1/94, and a full restoration commenced,
to restore the car back to original FJ configuration.
1995 To Nick MacDonald, who completed a great restoration,and
raced the car in Historic Formula Junior most successfully,
achieving many race wins and lap records.
2003 to Graham Brown, Queensland, who has maintained the car
in immaculate condition,and competes regularly all over
Australia. Graham still has the car, in 2008.
Alan, I have many photos and race records of FJ-3-62,
throughout it's life, let me know if you would like any.
Denis

Many thanks Denis. I've updated the page.

A photograph or two would be most useful as the BT2 page is phot-free at present. I'd need the permission of the copyright holder of course :-)

You are welcome to use this photo of FJ-3-62 that I took at Phillip Island early last year if it is of use Allen.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/695/fj362rs3.th.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fj362rs3.jpg)

Denis, there is an error in your details of FJ-3-62.

I sold the car to Mike Barker ar the Warwick Farm Tasman meeting, on the
18Th of Feb 68, so if the log book shows 67, it is in error.

There was a lot of engine swapping going on, with cars for sale, & Mike wanted to see me do the times I had been doing, before he took delivery of the car. I then had to deliver it to Melbourne, that night, with him riding shotgun with me.

In practice I did a 1 36.5, which was only 3 seconds slower than Clarkes F1 lap record ar the time.

Phil West

Piglos, thank you for the kind words. We were pretty happy with the Brabham, although it was nothing like the car it became after a few months more development.

That was my first race in the car, & as we had not finished building the engine for it, I dropped the engine from the X Glen Scott Lotus 20, that I had not then found a buyer for, in the Brabham, for the race. It was a gamble, but I could not stand the idea of missing Bathurst.

It became a habit. I had my first race in the Monaro, & the BT 24 also at Bathurst.

That made it 2 in a row for that engine. I had finished 3Rd outright in 66 with the Lotus. It was getting a bit hard to get a light car to do 100 miles around Bathurst at that time, so, if you finished, you did OK.

My engine developer, Kevin Carrad had an old bike saying, "don't tell me what you won mate, tell me who you beat". After the win in 68, in the BT24 he said, "OK, now you've finished first, so lets see in the next race, if you can beat someone". It was hard to get too big headed with him around.

Phil West

G'day Phil
I think I wrote 1968, and you're right, '67 is incorrect.
Also , maybe the BT24 you mention was BT23A-1.
Kevin was one of the original characters in racing, and really called a spade a spade,and no more.
Denis

I am looking for “period evidence” to show that a BT2 ran before 31/12/63 with a rear anti-roll bar. Has anybody any ideas? My car still runs inboard rear brakes. It seems some of the BT2 cars now running are converted to outboard brakes (BT6 type uprights etc.). Were these conversions done in period? And when was the BT6 first converted to use a rear anti-roll bar? It seems from the cut-out drawings and photos I have seen that they had no rear bar either.
All the best
Marcus

Marcus,

1] FJ-8-62 , my old car was converted in 1962 by Frank Gardner [ his car ] to outboard discs , many years ago I asked Frank why , typically the answer was the '' bloody engine oil leaks on rear discs ''.
So FJ-8-62 was Franks own car and converted , I also owned FJ-12-62 for many years , that car was subject of a 1963 Sports Car World track test , and that car only ever had outboard discs .

2] I have photo's taken as FJ-15-63 came off the boat from England [ about 20 photo's] and that CERTAINLY does Not have rear anti-roll bar and the front bar is the same as the BT2 s , NON adjustable.

So sorry to spoil your day , however as they only made about 20 BT6s , and as -15 has no rear bar , you could be flogging a dead horse.

Bryan Miller , Chairman , Historic Eligibility Comm, C.AMS.

Returning to the thorny subject of the interim 1963 car raced by Denny Hulme on Boxing Day 1972, Denis has sent me a fabulous picture of it. We're no closer to knowing whether it was FJ-13-62 of FJ-1-63 or even if it should be called a BT2 or a BT6 but at least we now know what it looked like.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/Images/lupton/BrabhamBT2or6-FJ-13-62-HulmeBoxingDay1962-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/Images/lupton/BrabhamBT2or6-FJ-13-62-HulmeBoxingDay1962.jpg)

Allen