Lola T460 and T560

Hi All
Colin Haste "Col" Bryan Miller recomended this site to me in my quest for infomation. The background to my request is this. In 2000 I purchsed a Lola T560 HU1(The only 560 the rest are udated 460s) unfortunatly I had a high speed shunt at Sandown (aust)last Nov which left the car prety much trashed.To fill in while I rebuilt the 560 I purchsed a T360 Known localy as AU1,The car was brought into Aust By Glen Abby and Don Baker in 1974 They were introduced to Eric Broadly by Frank Gardner who worked for Eric at the time "That may fill in a hole for Bryan and Chris T" enough of that. Its hard to find someone to build tubs in a short time and being impatient I put a note on racecars.com for a T460 tub,without going into to much detail the tubs are the same except for a couple of pick up points.I was sucsessful and brought a good Tub and what was to be some bits, as it turned out I got a rolling chassis less engine and gear box plus the orinal log book and chassis plate.
What I have is Lola T460 HU5 another car that needs restoring.So now I have the full set and two cars to build.
I'm trying trace the history of this car the original owner was Jerry Hansen,Jerry was also the original owner of my T560 a real coincidence.the next two owners names are in the log book but it is hard to read the writing it looks like a T J Mahonys? then a Steve ????MD there is the name Steve Jizmagian one the body of the car and the car was purchased from a Paul Schafer in California in 1997 by the guy I brought it off but he has lost this pauls contact number.I have tried to find Jerry Hansen but it appears as though he disapearsed after his sponsers went to jail for fraud.Jerry Hansen was as it seeems a fairly good peddler but not world class he did well in the SCCA runoffs and he is mentioned there in the Lola T460 in 1976 ,he raced sports cars fairly succsfully to im told.I would be greatfull for any input. Col

Colin

Sorry no info on your T460, but on the T560, Autocourse in 77 says it was raced by Carl Liebich. Did he drive it for Hansen ?

Welcome Colin!

Steve Jizmagian was a regular back of the field guy in F.Atlantic - mainly SCCA races. I have him in an RT1 in 1980. I guess that the Hansen car mainly ran SCCA. They don't feature in the pro results at all after 1976/77. Will try and find out about Mr Mahony and 460s in SCCA. Allen might know if there was such a guy in the Can Am, running the car under sports car bodywork.

As Liebich had his own 460 and most 560s [other than Hansen's] were kitted updates, I'd always figured that the 560 he ran 77-79 was his car upgraded.

Chris

Chris,

Bryan may have told you I have a set of 10"/14" Gotti modular wheels that came w/ my Modus. The DPO was going to try to upgrage it to FAtl w/ the wheel and engine change, but instead chopped up the body to install a March sports racer body and run the car 3 more times as a CSR in SCCA. Anyway, talks w/ DPO have devulged that the wheels are ex-Jerry Hansen. What is the pin pattern of your 460 and 560 and I may have a set of wheels for you. You can reply off-list to rogsie@telesistech.com.

Also, do you have the Lola soft cover book that covers mainly 70's racing in F5000, FAtl and Can-Am. I have an extra copy or two I could supply. I've had them for at least 5 years so I'm pretty sure they are out-of-print.

Roger

Thanks for the replies. Dan I think Chris is right re Liebich.Chris I found an entry for Jizmagian in 1975 in a march 722 sponsored by Swanson art Galleries San Francisco California.in the log book a Steve somthing looks like Quest MD ran the car from July 78 to June 70 so if he had the car it would have been in that short period unless he is a MD and signs his last name nothing like it looks.I know the car was never a world beeter or its drivers for that matter but we like to get as accurate history of the cars as we canout here for there historic documents.that aside I will list the dates and events in the log book some one may have a program or list of entries from one that will list the 460s there so here it is.
1976

pushed the wrong button I will continue 1976 4th June sprints
9th July Uncola
no date Milwalkee Mueller
no date BVR Nationals
3rd Sept NOW spectator nationals
18th Sept Hossier GP
22nd Oct GSPRRC
Hansen sells to lets try Mobrays?
1977
23rd april taputa S/R?
30th april Salt City Dr sch/reg
1st may hutchinson KS
15th may blackhawk farms reg
30th may LOL reg
2nd june sprints
18th june milwalkee BUR nats
25th june IRP nat
8th july uncola nats
2 sept BIR nats
24th sept BIR regs
sold to steve ??? Md
1978
1 july ponca city
29th july hallet super nats
6 aug MAR regs
19th aug lake a fran?
10th sept MAR super nats
15th oct IRP
1979
21 apirl hallet
4th may MAR
26th may hutch
1st june elkart lake june sprints
17th June Hutch
well there it is a lot of those I dont know much about but they were most likly all scca and in area 18 according to the car stamping
Col

Lawler's Lola T462, I presume this was simply a BDX engoned T460, rather than anything more sophisticated. I think it later went to Ireland, (John Eastwood?)and Alo later used a 'proper' T460, the ex-Trimmer 76 car. He must ahve liked Lolas, 'cos he later got the unique T760 ground effects one, not that it was any good, as I think he went back to the T460 in mid-season, and later got the ex Mallock RT1 for 1980.

Dan

Lawler's T462 was HU22 the last of the 460 series to be built. When and where did he use the Trimmer T460, which was slightly older? I think both cars ended up in Ireland.

Chris

For what it's worth I can only remember one Irish T460, that of John Eastwood which then - I think - passed to Joey Greenan and was then sold in the mid 80's, probably out of the country. Don't remember seeing another one here.....

Chris/Richard

I'm sure Alo brought back the ex-Trimmer/Melchester T460 in around mid 78, after he'd given up with his Surtees and RT1 in Aurora, or perhaps wanted a cheaper option. I guess he got it, perhaps borrowed rather than bought, to do Irish Atlantic as much as anything else.

He was definitely entered in a T460 at the Donington October 78 race. He started too, I think I may even have photos, it was white. He was 3rd on the grid of what turned out to be a mixed Irish Atlantic/Libre race, behind Barton and Viv Candy, ahead of Mather, Bryce Wilson, Greenan, Dickson, and Richard Jones. Very good field indeed. As I recall there was a startline shunt, it was restarted and won by Dickson from Adrian Russell, Alo (first Atlantic) Jones, Gowdy abd John Smith.

Ring any bells ???

Dan

Can I broaden this to a look at all T460s this is what I have gathered whilst searching with help from Bryan.It seems that information of the American scene is had to come by.this is what I have.
HU5 1976 Jerry Hansen then unknown till now
HU 9 seen for sale GP Classics US
HU10 seen for sale race cars .com US
HU11 Driven David Webber Toronto 1976 and Trios Riviere in 1977 in boxes till 1994 and now with Derek Harling Canada
HU12 seen for sale race cars .com US
HU15 ex Ted Wentz 1977 in the hands of Beng Saswanto Stuyvesant series new zealand Graham lawrence second driver
HU17 seen for sale Stucky car sales US
HU20 Auto sport 19/5/77 for sale Tony Trimmer (Melchester racing kent)out right winner John Player series.
There are supposed to be 21 made with Chris noting Lawlers T462 as HU22
In the US IMSA series 1976 we have Hector Rebaque (BDA Traylor)and Tom Klausler ( BDA Nicholson)
In the Canadian Players series 1976 we have Bertil Roos BDA/Hart,Tom Glory BDA/Phillips then Nicholson,Tom Klausler BDA/Traylor,Hector Rebaque BDA/Traylor, Ted Wentz BDA/Cosworth,Tim Conconis BDA/Cosworth,Craig Hill BDA/Hart,Carl Liebich BDA/Hart.
At least two of the above may be the same car given Roos changes to and RT1 mid year and Glory to a Tui/BH2.
On the Europen side we have Lawler in a 460in 1976 and Ted Wentz and Tony Trimmer both in T460s at Brands Hatch on the 6th June 1976.
Looking for as much history as posible Colin

Col.
Autosport june 8-1978, at Curborough sprints in U.K. David Render has a T460 .
Bryan.

Col. re. the above , in july 78 issue , states Render's car is ex-Adrian Russell.

I think the Russell T460 was actually the ex-Mallock T450 F2 car. Used briefly in 76 by Mallock, then dumped for his March 742/75B, which he won at Snetterton G8 in. Russell used the car quite a bit in Libre with an Atlantic engine in 78, then got the ex-South March 782. His cars were always very well prepared, but not very fast...I don't think Russell got the car until '78, he had a converted F3 GRD in 77, so Render couldn't have had it in mid-78, unless he borrowed it from Russell.

Now I think about it, didn't Render also have the ex-works/Marazzi T550 F2 car, that I think Lawler also used, or was entered in once or twice in 78. nb, it seems that no-one else agrees with me on the Lawler T550 matter !!!

How many other T450s were made, I guess some of these may also have been called T460s over time, as the Atlantic car went pretty well, compared to the F2 version.

Dan there were 4 T450s made as I understand it.The change over would have been simple given they are basicly the same car as a 460.

Lola T460s adding to what Colin has given us, all of which I agree on.

HU4 Tom Gloy
HU7 1979 Bill Woodruff [Canada] don't know before or after
HU15 1979 probably the "lo" part of the "Marlo" raced by Saswanto
HU17 Tim Coconis 1976-79; John Keller 1980-85

Chris/Richard

Re T460 HU20, the Trimmer Melchester '76 car. I'm pretty sure it did go to Ireland, as well as the T462 HU22 Lawler car. Can't recall who had it, Eastwood definitely rings a bell for one of them. I'm certain Alo brought it back here for a while, see my note on the Donington race above. Whether he owned it, or borrowed it I don't know.

How does Kinnane sound for the owner of the ex Trimmer car?

Dan

The Wentz car [HU7]seems to have come to a sticky end in a testing accident, driven by Roy James in Sept '75. In the last few races of that season Wentz appears in a prototype 'T362' which seems to be the basis of the T460

Chris

Chris and Dan
I have been working on the US side,I found the current owner of HU12 a "Mark barr Austin Texas" I'm hoping he will look up and give me the names of the previous owners.He tells me there is another 460 there I a have a contact so will follow up.I have found Steve Jizmagian the name of the driver on my body it apears he was the original owner but not my car it appears he trashed his car in 79 and sold it off in bits he is coming back to me with more info hopfully this week.
Col

Chris and Dan
I have found a Michael Duncan who says he owned T460s HU1 and HU2 in the late 80s i'm hoping he will be able to get some early history from him re these cars. I also found Steve Jizmagian in the US his name was on the body of my car but it seems I finnished up with the body he was the original owner of his car and after trashing it in the late 70s sold it off in bits, i'm hoping he can find the plate number to put a nother piece in place.
Colin

Further info on HU1 & HU2 Michael Duncan believes that they were owned or raced by Hector Rebaque and Tom Klausler.Could it be the first 460s went to the US?and where are they now?
Colin

I'd say it was almost certain that the first two 460s went to the US.
Indeed, with the exceptions of Wentz's HU15 and Trimmer's HU20, and Lawler's 1977 car, I'd guess that the whole production run was exported to the US and Canada.
Rebaque was run by Carl Haas in 1976.
Lola build records, which the company will usually supply, often give car colour, even if the consignee is usually a dealer rather than a driver. [For 460s I'd guess they all went through Haas]
Rebaque's car was Yellow and Klausler's White

Chris

Lets see if I can collate where were at with
T460s
HU1 Hector Rebaque 1988 Michael Duncan
HU2 Tom Klausler 1988 Michael Duncan
HU3
HU4 Tom Glory
HU5 Jerry Hansen,1977 T J M?? 78 Steve ??? MD Paul Schafer 97 Cy Moreland 2003 Colin Haste
HU6
HU7 Ted Wentz,crashed by Roger James 79 Bill Woodruff Canada
HU8
HU9 Seen on GP CLassics no history given
HU10 Seen Racecars.com no history given
HU11 David Webber Toronto 77 Trios Riere,94 Derek Harling
HU12 Ed Midgley updated to 560 2000 Mark Barr ,Austin Texas
HU13
HU14
HU15 Ex Ted Wentz 1977 Beng Saswanto
HU16
HU17 Tim Coconis 76/79, John Keller 80/85
HU18
HU19
HU20 Tony Trimmer (Melchester Racing 76)
HU21
HU22 T462 Alo Lawler

In 1976 Canadaian Players series We have in 460s Craige Hill,Carl Liebich,& Bertill Roos. These guys changed around a bit so could be any early one.
Steve Jizmagian purchased his 460 new in 76 it could be an early one the car was trashed in 79 and sold in bits

My T560
77 Jerry Hansen, 82 Bruce Clark 89 Richard George 90 Dennis Tobin 95 Michael Henderson ( To Australia) 2000 Colin Haste.

Colin

On 460 HU7 you've conflated the history of T360 HU7 which was the Wentz car in 1975 and perhaps destroyed by Roy James at the end of that year. I don't have any previous on HU7 prior to Woodruff in 1979, and don't remember where I got that from!

T460s in 1976 without certain nos:

Tom Klausler [rebuilt on new tub early in season]
Haas: Hector Rebaque
Craig Hill [Accident at Trois Rivieres, maybe scrapped]
Bertil Roos
Carl Liebich, retained 1977, retained and kitted as 560 in 1978
Victor Larose [may be a T360]
Pierre Phillips: Bobby Brown then Ted Wentz
Richard Melville

1977
Don McKnight DNS at Trois Rivieres with a 460-Hart. Is this Webber's HU11 on hire [Webber himself uses a Ralt that year]

If you look at Auto sport 13 may 1976 there is a picture of TTrimmer in whats called the development 360 and Wentz in the new 460 a good look at the rear end shows them pretty much the same engine frame and certinly unlike a 360 engine frame the body still 360 though.

Does Carl Liebich have details of the other Lolas he owned apart from the T361/2? What was his 460? And was his 560 a kitted modification to that car, as we have always surmised?

Agree with you about the rear ends of Trimmer's and Wentz's cars.

I have been in contact with David Dettrickson in the US. T460 HU1, HU15, 15 the wentz /Saswanto car and 1 maybe the car Wentz had a drive of at Brands in 76.

Lola Cars did keep a list of first owners of their cars - at least in the 1976 period. I know that because I got a letter from Laurie Bray while he was still working there (with the "original" company) confirming details of my Lola T460 - build date, shipping date, purchaser, specification etc. Laurie has since retired but I understand he still helps Lola Heritage with similar info from time to time.

Does anyone know of anyone using Lola Heritage?

Derek

Thanks, that's interesting. Most of the earlier Lola build records just show the agency that sold the car and for the US and Canada most cars went through Haas at that time

Chris

You're probably right I'm sure - my example is only a sample of one!

From Laurie Bray 18 Feb 1994 - "Your car (HU11) was built 22 April 1976, first car was built 13 Feb 1976, all T460 chassis were built in 1976".

From Mike Blanchet 9 June 1994 - "Your car was exported directly to Canada for Mr Webber who was the original purchaser".

Some Canadian Lolas went straight to the buyer without going through Haas. For example, Wietzes' F5000 Lolas, Kroll's F5000 T142. So Lola's chassis lists may well show original Canadian owners but, as Chris says, probably not original US owners.

Allen

I do remember a few T460s racing in Ireland. David Lamb had a T460, ex Alo. He smashed it into the bank (messing) in Mondello Park about 1979/80. I later saw it advertised by Bob Howlings/Amco. The tub was pretty bad. Body was bright green.

Dave.

Dave, Irish T460s. The Greenan car was the ex-Alo T462 I think, certainly the colour's right for it (orange).

The Lambe car was, I think its a long time ago and have no evidence to prove, the white HU20 ex-Trimmer car that went to you in 77. I believe Alo later either bought or borrowed this one, for a few late season Libre races. It was white, not orange, I saw it as mentioned earlier at Donington in October 78. Don't know after that, though I recall Alo had a T460 of some sort later in 79, after he'd got fed-up with the T760. Colour was white, so I'd again guess it was this car, ie HU20. As for the later colour, maybe Lambe painted it green after getting it back from Alo. Are they friends do you know, where's the connexion ??

I've spoken to some people here and the "Orange T360" was a T362 and was ex Alo. He ran it in orange with L+B on the side.

Dave.

Dave, that would be Alo's T462, not a T360, he used the car in 77 over here in Gp8, and the odd English F2 race, backed by L & B Excavations. Also a few libre races of course. He had a pretty bad accident at oulton in it early on, had it rebuilt, and went OK in it for the rest of the year. I think it went over to you at the end of 77, John Eastwood rings a bell.

Dan,

I thought Alo still had that car as a reserve in 78 and 79. Didn't he race it when the T760 proved to be such a dog?

Chris

Chris, from dim and distant memory the T462 did go to Ireland at the end of 77. The car he used occasionally in 78, after his Surtees and Ralt outings, was, again from dim and distant, the ex-Trimmer/Melchester T460, which I think had gone to Ireland in mid 77. The car he used at Donington in Oct 78 was white, definitely looked like the Melchester car. He must have retained it into 79, since as you say, he used it again in 79 after the T760.

I wonder whether Alo owned all of these cars (T462/T460/TS19/RT1/T760/different RT1/RT4), or whether he 'borrowed' some of them, his business must have been doing very well at that time !

I bought T460 Hu22 (Orange "Racing for Ireland livery")from Joey Greenan,with a blown up motor. Raced it for a season and then sold it to historic racer Alex Seldon in England who wanted it just for the engine. Joey told me at the time that he had got it from Eastwood (cant remember his first name ) and he had it from Alo.

Hope that helps ?

Thought I would update people on developments on the T460s in the hope of jogging a few memories and maybe finding a few more owners out there.

Known cars in period.

HU1: Rebaque
2: Klausler
4: Pierre Phillips for Tom Gloy
5: Jerry Hansen
11: Dave Webber
15: Ted Wentz
17: Tim Coconis
20: Melchester Racing for Tony Trimmer

Known as new or probable new owners in 1976

Bertil Roos [Gabriel Steel car] only used to R3 of Canadian series, so maybe sold and must be early build number

Pierre Phillips for Bobby Brown, Tom Weichmann, Ted Wentz and probably Michael Lavarum at Halifax AMSP

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Richard Melville

Steve Jizmagian used SCCA

Phil Currey used SCCA

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Tim Cooper. Used not very often, Cooper prefered March, and also run by Klauser at the Laguna Seca IMSA Atlantic race late 76

Victor Larose [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Joe Colontino [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Thought I would update people on developments on the T460s in the hope of jogging a few memories and maybe finding a few more owners out there.

Known cars in period.

HU1: Rebaque
2: Klausler
4: Pierre Phillips for Tom Gloy
5: Jerry Hansen
11: Dave Webber
15: Ted Wentz
17: Tim Coconis
20: Melchester Racing for Tony Trimmer

Known as new or probable new owners in 1976

Bertil Roos [Gabriel Steel car] only used to R3 of Canadian series, so maybe sold and must be early build number

Pierre Phillips for Bobby Brown, Tom Weichmann, Ted Wentz and probably Michael Lavarum at Halifax AMSP

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Richard Melville

Steve Jizmagian used SCCA

Phil Currey used SCCA

Wilbur Bruce Racing for Tim Cooper. Used not very often, Cooper prefered March, and also run by Klauser at the Laguna Seca IMSA Atlantic race late 76

Victor Larose [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Joe Colontino [mid season, maybe the Roos car]

Chris
Lola T460 records anyone?

I've only noted the country where it's not US and only noted the date when it's after 26 April. Anything in square brackets is added from other info on this thread.

HU1 - Golden Yellow - Haas [Rebaque]
HU2 - Royal Blue - Haas [Klauser]
HU3 - Red - Haas
HU4 - Black - Haas/Philips [Philips for Gloy]
HU5 - Viking Orange - Haas [Hansen]
HU6 - White - Haas
HU7 - Golden Yellow - Haas
HU8 - White - Japan: Grant/Schwartz
HU9 - Golden Yellow - Philips/Haas [so Philips for Brown et al?]
HU10 - Red - Haas/Rawlston
HU11 - BRG - Canada: Haas/Webber [David Webber]
HU12 - White - Canada: Haas/Robertson
HU14 - Red (10 May) - Haas
HU15 - White/Gold (16 Dec!) - NZ: Poon
HU16 - White - Canada: Haas/Robertson
HU17 - Black (12 May) - Haas [Coconis]
HU18 - Yellow (30 Jul) - Haas
HU19 - White (30 Jul) - Haas
HU20 - White (25 Aug) - UK:Trimmer
HU21 - White (7 Oct) - Haas
HU22 - Viking Orange (17 Feb 1977) - L&B Excavations [Lawler]

Some oddities here: Klauser's car not being blue and that wierd HU15 entry. In other Lola sheets I've seen, a date seriously out of step could mean a works car sold on at the end of the season.

Chris - do you have some car colours to compare with these?

Allen

Allen
That HU15 entry is right. We know from Dave McKinney's reporting that this plate was on the car in NZ 1977 and that it was the ex Wentz semi works car which had run with Swan Lager backing in UK [in those colours].
Sadly yellow and white seem to have been very popular colours that year! Rawlston would be a Canadian entrant - had previously owned a BT35. Might be able to do something with him. Also, agree about the oddity of Klausler's car not being blue and all.

Chris

Chris

You mentioned Klauser wrote one off early on the season. Could he have written off a blue one and then got a white one?

Allen

The two cars run by Brian Robertson for Gabriel Steel, driven by Roos and Craig Hill were white. That explains HU12, but was HU6 really Klausler's? All three cars are running in the first Canadian race.

From build date and appearance dates, HU18 and 19 are the cars of Carl Leibich and perhaps Victor Larose.

Chris

Re HU11 - now owned by me -

- colour should read red - the body that came with it to me in 1994 (and knowing the intermediary owners I've no reason to think it was changed) had dark red gelcoat.

- the car never went via Haas (I thought we'd established that earlier in this thread). Per letter from Mike Blanchet to me dated 9 June 1994 "....No.11 was exported directly into Canada for Mr Webber who was the original purchaser. The car left our workshop 22 April 1976."

I also have previous letter from Laurie Bray at Lola dated 18 February 1994 "No.11 built 22 April 1976. First car built 13 February 1976. All T460 built 1976 and not before."

Hope this helps.

I bumped into Carl Liebich at Road America (Elkhart Lake) last weekend. If we have questions for him I have a contact. Pls let me know. I don't think he wants to get drawn into longwinded correspondence.

Cheers - Derek

Derek

The T460 listing above isa transcript of a transcript of Lola's records. So the colour and Haas' name come from there.

Allen

Allen
do these records mention any thing about the T560?
Colin

Allen

Interesting. Why would Mike Blanchet, who was Managing Director at the time, 1994, tell me "No.11 was exported directly into Canada for Mr Webber who was the original purchaser" if the records state otherwise?

It doesn't really bother me - just trying to help.

Derek

Colin - no, sorry, I only have T460

Derek - no idea! Maybe he knew from some other records that it went direct to Canada but maybe Haas was involved in the sales process so took his commission (even if he never saw the car).

Hi. I am new to this forum, but I have some contemporary knowledge of the Wentz 460.

The car was a bit more than partly works, and by the time a bit of the year had gone by it was very different that the stock cars. It lived at Lola. It had a Lola mechanic. And it was continually modified by the cheif designer, whose name escapes me.

The late 75 360/460 prototype was very fast. It had substantially improved suspension and aero compared to the 360. This was later sold to Mike King.

The original 460 that Ted was to drive was really awful. Very low front downforce and lots else. The nose was substantially altered, and the suspension geometry was continually altered throughout the year.

The production 460's were **** around the world and people complained. Then Trimmer got one in the middle of the Indylantic (1976) season and went ballistic because it was so uncompetitive with Wentz. He was let in on some of the changes but I don't think all of them.

One failings of the car was the lighter than normal CV joints in the driveshafts. These broke twice for Ted.

This car was raced in England in 1976 only. Sometime over the winter it went down under. Ted last drove a race car in England spring of 77 whne asked to test drive a 460? with an Abarth straight 6 (or 8?) formula 2 motor in it.

John
Thanks for the interesting post re the wentz 460.What do you know about the T560? in the book put out buy Stucky the abarth 460 is called T560, I have Lola T560 which is plated HU1 and is a Formula Atlantic sold by Haas in the US ,some 460s were changed to the 560 spec as after market changes. Do you know any thin about Lola T560? or for that matter the prototype T360?
Colin

Hi Colin,

I think anything I might say should be considered highly suspect.

My guess would be that because of the really poor performance of the stock 460 (and 360 for that matter) that Lola would have finally adopted most of the stuff off the Wentz car. Further think that the 560 nomenclature was meant to get the newest car differentiated from the previous cars so as not to hurt sales.

i was never around the prototype 360/460 until it was run by King and then it was less intersting than Ted's car.

The changes to the 460 Wentz car was very narrow track front and rear, and a lot of downforce - so much so that he had an almost impossible time getting around other fast cars (due to drag). The inner pivots of lower links of the rear suspension were so close they almost touched. The suspension was such that the roll-centers moved quite oddly. As the car cornered the inside of the car raised more that the outside dropped! The car had several real advantages. It turned in unbelievably, such that entering a corner was a whole new thing at any speed. Behind Ted at the hairpin at Brands my car was loose and sliding, while he could just yank the wheel to the right and dive into a hole. I take nothing from his driving at all, but that car was awesome.

So if the 560 looks like or behaves like the factory 460 then it might very well be a seriously good piece. Do you have pictures? Email to me?

The reason I mention this

Hi John
I can email pics the only ones on the computer are of a very bent 560 after a high speed end over end I had about 18 months ago,with out going into detail(it is recorded earlier in this post),I have an early 460 HU5. It is very narrow track, the lower rear is a reverse A that piviots about 4inches apart the front wishbones are short with the shockers recessed. the 560 on the other hand is wider track ( not as wide as a 360 which is about 7inches wider than the 560) the rear lowers are parralel links attached to a H pattern frame piviting about 8 inches apart the attachment for the upper link was changed and the shockers attacher adjacent to that link moving it a bit further to the rear, the front pivot points have been moved inboard and the wishbones made longer and the shockers have been moved out about 3 inches at the top and the anti sway bar is heaver.the prmo sheet Haas put out said the improved suspention changes improved the cars poformance on American tyres.
I have'nt worked out how to post a pic on this forum yet but will try to do so.
Colin

I am trying to justify buying a new scanner. With it I can scan pictures (very low res. from Autosport mag from back then) that will show the decreased track width from prod. 460 to later 460.

One of the big problems with many of the formula cars back then was that the tires for FA, FB, FF were quite different in the US versus England. Not only were the compounds different but much worse the diameters were different. With the factory rideheight settings the roll centers were way off what the car was devloped for. For whatever reason, I couldn't convince any manufacturer to get US tires for testing. They really didn't care! Perhaps they did it finally with the 560.

One of the reasons they didn't care was the way the Haas treated Lola. Ted and I came late one night and I happened to notice a big cigar in the ashtray. We were then told that Haas has the cheek to light a big Cuban cigar and stuff it out in minutes (such profligate behavior in 70's England) while the bugger hasn't paid us in six (it could easily be more) months!

I'm not sure what Haas had to do with the 560 development,but the first recorded ownership I have for it is Jerry Hansen who seemed to buy a lot of cars off Haas, in fact the first recorded owner of my 460 was Jerry Hansen also.This infomation comes from SCCA log books but the cars may well have been run by Haas before being sold to Hansen.unfortunatly all my searches for Hansen have lead to the "dept of internal revenue want him first."
Colin

Col

Haas was the Lola dealer for the US so everything went through him.

Allen

The Wilbur Bruce you have listed is probably Wilbur Bunce (Bunce Engineering) who ran a very successful race prep business out of So. Cal in the early 70's. He is still involved with racing but now works with NASCAR Truck series and has relocated to North Carolina (Bunce Eng. 9009B Topsail Cove, Huntrsville, NC 28078 704-895-8172) I don't know about Melville, but I do know Tim Cooper, and Cooper never owned the Lola but leased some rides in the car from Bunce. Cooper never felt comfortable in the car, hence the short relationship with the Lola.

jjordan

Have quite a lot of questions for Tim Cooper [tho not as many as some people have for Jerry Hansen...]. Could you find out about his Marches for me? Were they bought from March or was he again running hire cars like the Bunce Lola? [I have Bunce running him in a 75B in SCCA late in 76 - a season when he started with a 76B, went to the Lola and back to the 76B]
Also, Cooper raced several seasons in Canada, pretty much always with new cars. Any documents these guys have, whether it's programmes they kept or even better organisers time and results sheets, sales records, is immensely useful. Back in the mid 70s the race reports in magazines could be a bit scanty.

Melville was a Jamaican, ran a construction company and emigrated to NZ in 77, taking with him an ex Shierson 76B with which he proved useful. Don't know where he is today. I think that Bunce might have had two 460s, one raced regularly by Melville and the other spread around.

The more we can find in terms of original documents the easier accurate reconstruction of history becomes.

Chris

T460-HU9 is for sale in Switerland at the moment, apparently with a full set of FIA papers. All we know about this one is that it was a Pierre Phillips car.
Anyone know more about this one?

Chris

Chris
We had T460 HU9 as the Phillips car see post back at july 04 and I last saw it for sale at GPClassics site.No further history other than Phillips.
Col

According to my records Dave Render's Lolas were as follows:

1) 1978 1.6 Lola-Ford BDA T460 - actually T450-HU1
2) 1979 to 1980 2.0 Lola-Abarth T560
3) 1981 1.6 Lola-Ford BDA T460 (see 1)
4) 1983 1.6 Lola-Ford BDA T460 again plus
2.8 Lola-Hart T560
5) 1984 and 1985 2.8 Lola-Hart T560

Can anyone shed any light on the T560 which looked very much like an F2 car?

The only Lola T560 is T560 HU1 which I am the owner of. The car was sold by Carl Haas to Jerry Hansen and SCCA logbooked on 17/8/77 subsequent owners were, 1982-89 Bruce Clark,1989-90 Richard George,1990-95 Denis Tobin all of the US then Michael Henderson 1995-2000 Colin Haste 2000 Australia. Quote: News from Lola Carl Haas automobile imports ink, "1977 Lola T560 Formula Atlantic" The resault of an intensive Lola development program.A product of extensive testing in Country and europe under the direct supervision of Eric Broadley,the T560 features revised suspention geometry for optimun performance on US racing tires. An exceptional handling car with lap time potential on all circuits. A design which combines the outstanding reliability of its predecessor wit significant handling and development improvments.There seems to be some confusion possibly generated by the Stucky book ,were he calls the F2 car of Marazzi the T560 when all F2 cars from Lola were numbered 50 ie the T450 F2 and the T460 Atlantic.He also mentions the T550 F2 car.

Colin

A number of cars appeared as T560s which were 460s that had been kitted.
And presumably didn't have T560 plates.
Amongst these is Carl Leibich's car at Long Beach in 1978
They were unkitted fairly rapidly! By mid season Leibich is back in a T460 [presumably the one that was modified for long Beach] and by late season has actually bought out the T362 used by Trimmer and King in the 1976 Indyatlantic series.

Chris

Just spotted this in On Track 9 Nov 1987 p64: Duane Smith finishing fourth in the F. Atlantic Run-Offs in "his ancient Lola T460".

Interesting information on David Render's Lolas

Ad by Render in Autosport 9.9.82 p. 70 lists for sale
Lola T560 chassis 2
Lola T450 chassis 1

Now the 460 confirms observations
I think that Mallock originally had HU3 and was given HU1 to replace it after the Mallory accident, so that the history of this car is indeed Mallock - Russell - Render.

The chassis number for the 560 suggests that there really were two 560s [or that the 550 happened to sit in the planned 560 series as chassis HU2]. This can't be a kit of T460 HU2 as that car was in the USA.

Chris

Chris. Do we now assume the T450-1 story goes : works development, Mallock (to replace the Mallory wreck), Russell, Render. If so, and HU3 was rebuilt by the works, then to Europe as DW said, I wonder which mug from the Continent bought it, a climber perhaps ?

Re the 550/560s, I guess they were numbered in 1 sequence only, hence the US Atlantic car was HU1, and the Marazzi F2 car HU2.

O/T slightly, do you recall whether there were any rumours about more T760s being built or sold in '79. At that time FAt was pretty strong in the US and downunder, and given that the 460s had gone OK, I'd have thought Lolas or Haas would have been able to shift a few of these 'state of the art' Ground effects cars. Or had word of the testing got out that it was a dog ...

[QUOTE=Dan Rear]Chris. Do we now assume the T450-1 story goes : works development, Mallock (to replace the Mallory wreck), Russell, Render. If so, and HU3 was rebuilt by the works, then to Europe as DW said, I wonder which mug from the Continent bought it, a climber perhaps ?

Re the 550/560s, I guess they were numbered in 1 sequence only, hence the US Atlantic car was HU1, and the Marazzi F2 car HU2.

QUOTE]

Whilst having another trawl through Autosport mags I spotted that at the end of 1981 David Render had two Lolas for sale.

Lola T460-01 with a 1600 BDA and

Lola T560-02 with a 2000 Hart 420R

:cool:

You may have noticed a T460 for sale to be parted out. I contacted the guy to try to see what car it is and any history. It seems it is HU6 but he gave no history only that it was for sale as a package or parts "bit of a shame"

Col - and others.

I'm going to see that car next week - will let you know what I find out. How did you find out that it was [or might be] #6? Is the history of #6 known at all?

I'm in Savannah right now with my T460 - planning to win a 1-1/2 hour 'enduro' - but the weather gods are forecasting thunderstorms. Perfect excuse - right?

From the sales list supplied by Alan, HU6 was a Haas car, white. We don't yet know more.
Given the delivery is before May 76, and the colour, I'd say this was probably a Gabriel Steel car for either of Roos or Craig Hill. It's fairly important that we get as much info on the car as possible before it gets broken up.

Chris

I'll see what I can do next week. I have contacts for both Bertil and Craig.

The problem with 'preserving' T460s is that not many people want them. I seem to be the only person racing one in the northern hemisphere. Did the one in Switzerland [ex-US] sell recently?

swiss still has his car
my man has 5 lola cars 360 460 450 cars and then the mad ozzie has the rest of the production run !!

DW, who's the Swiss T460 man, just out of interest ?

klaus has the car in switzerland- not tried swiss beer either

Derek

I'd love a T460 but the team manager says that all we can afford is the MGB GT that comes out of the shop this weekend...

If you have contacts for Bertil and Craig can I send you a whole sheaf of questions or forward them my e mail for correspondence? Between them they cover a whole load of Atlantic race miles.

Chris scrap the mgb project get what u can for it and throw your lot into my pot and we can then see if we have enough to buy the t460 project after ive sold my skoda estate
im going to chase the guy again for photos to see how bad it is

Whoever ends up with a project 360 or 460 or 460/560 I have all the jigs and complete set of body work moulds for each car as well as wing componants and jigs to produce wings and Tubs and tub bits,the hardest parts are the uprights but they can be remade.
I am not mentioning this as any sort of bussiness just to help out any one who needs it.

Car was not available for viewing this last week ["too much clutter in the garage"]. I've been promised I can see it 'soon'.

I've seen it. I've bought it. I'm crazy. Not much to look at - real mess. Will go in my storage unit in case I need spares for my #11. Will sell for $1m. Or contact my executors at the appropriate time. :rotate:

maybe good price but when u add in all the missing parts etc it will cost more than a turn key car

Question for Col Haste!!
Col, when we were establishing histories early on in this thread you mentioned that
Hansen sold your car to a Mr M..... indecipherable in 1977. Could that indecipherable be Frank Mahaney III or some variant thereof? I have said gentleman, from Chicago, in a T460 in 1977, and Chicago is not too far from Mr Hansen.

Also you mentioned Ed Midgley as a sometime owner of T460 HU12. Where did you come by this? Any idea on dates

Best
Chris

Chris

You mention Ed Midgley - he did indeed own the next serial number to mine but I can't remember whether it was 10 or 12 - I'll take your word for it. He raced it in the pro series 1976 or 77 on. Bought the car as a T460, had Carl Haas convert to T560 spec in early 1977. Car sat for years. In the late 90's he renovated it came out to several vintage races, sold the car to a David Barr [Burr?] in Texas who has just sold it to Mike Finch in AZ. I have recent pics of it if you are interested. Car was and is medium/dark red like mine.

[Col: I'll reply to your email tonight]

Derek

Chris
Yes that looks very much the name in the log book in fact I would say 100%. He owned the car from Aug 76 to about mid year 78 when a new name appears entered in July 78 this signiture is even harder to read but has MD clearly after it.
Colin

Derek
The Midgely car is more likely to be HU10 if it's red. I understood that car to be sold by Haas to David Ralston in Indiana, which is the right area for Midgley to buy it.
I have him still using a Lola in late 1979 after which he gets a March.
Would like photos as am getting close to a web-publishable history on T460s and all images gratefully acknowledged. If you have pics of Webber with your car in period that too would be good.

Colin
One interesting possibility on your car's history. I have Chuck Dietrich running an orange T560 in the June Sprints at Elkhart Lake in 1980 and imagine this might be your car, but perhaps borrowed rather than owned by Dietrich. Did you mean Aug 77 for Mahaney getting the car? Hansen would have bought it spring 76.

Chris

Colin,
Here are some more names to check off in the log books for T460-HU5 and T560-HU1.
I have Bruce Clark in a T560 at the Elkhart Lake June Sprints of 1979. I take this to be Hansen’s real T560 [HU1] rather than a kitted T460. At the same meeting I have a Nick Karabetsos in a T460 [and from the photo I have this looks like it’d red and an original T460] and I suspect it might be Midgley's car. Clark is still appearing in 1981 with his T560, but at the same meeting I have a Robert Lybarger [well known Lola user at club level, who also ran 240 and 360 models] in another 560. Might this be 460-HU5 kitted? [It has to be a 460] Are Karabetsos or Lybarger any of the unreadable names on HU5’s log book? Karabetsos also has the virtue of being unpronounceable. Chuck Dietrich, who also comes from the same region also runs a T460 in 1981 and I guess either his or Lybarger’s has to be your 460.

With the log book entries you reproduced for the 460 in the early stages of this thread do you have results or just fact that the car participated?
I agree with Charles that Overton might be a possibility here. He went on to a Ralt RT1 [chassis and full history known] but chances are he had an earlier “entry level” car.

Chris

Chris & Charles
Yes I would say pretty much for sure it is Steve Overton MD in the logbook, the car was originly orange the first entry for Overton was 1st July 78 and the last entry in this log book was 17th June 79.
Bruce Clark ran T560 at the June sprints on the 2nd & 3rd of june 79.The line of ownership for T560 HU1 is Jerry Hansen to Bruce Clark 1st May 78 to 19th June 82 (from log book) 82 to 89 unknown, 89 to 90 Richard George,90 to 95 Dennis Tobin, 95 to 2000 Michael Henderson (Aust) 2000 Colin Haste . original Colour Orange , I belive the orange on both cars was called Viking Orange.
I did manage to track down Jerry Hansen with Derek's help and spoke to him but he was very vague and said I had so many cars I don't remember any details of any car.
Colin

Chris
Thank you for checking the signatures.We now have T460 #5 as Jerry Hansen,Frank Mahaney then Steve Overton MD.

Charles
Thanks for the info re Overton moving to California, the person I obtained the car (in bits) from purchased it from a chap in California by the name of Shafer or some name simular I believe, so the car may have found its way there with Overton.

Colin

Colin,

I hate to burst your bubble but Steve Overton would have long since divested himself of the 460 by the time he left the St Louis area for Sausalito.

Colin,
I hate to burst your bubble but Steve Overton would have long since divested himself of the 460 by the time he left the St Louis area for Sausalito.

Thanks Charles....for reminding of the fine roads leading into Sausalito ;) and the nice atmosphere when you arrive :cool:

Chris

Sorry for delayed reply. The forum used to email me when new posts were posted but that seems to have stopped in the last few days.

Ed Midgley's car was sold by him as #12 and it is red - same red as mine. Go to Google images 'lola t 560' - use the space between t and 560 or don't get it. Some pics there you can download. If you think you need permission I'll get it for you. Ed's car was converted in 1977 when he owned it. The black side panels on the tub in the pics are recent [1998/99] - to cover up years of track blasting! I know that Mike Finch, who just bought this car from Dave Barr, sent me some recent pics but I can't find them right now - sorry.

The car Chuck Deitrich owned was a T460 kitted to T560 and it was yellow. I inspected his car in 1994 before buying mine and my spare nose was his - it's yellow! I have detail pics of the T560 suspension etc but none of the total car. Do you have a serial no for the car? I might be able to get it. Chuck sold it to Lowell Blossom in about 1995/96 and he sold it on to someone in the Indianapolis area who still had it a couple of years ago.

Do you know Dave Dedrickson out in WA state? He owns T450 #1, T460 #1, T460 #15 and T360 #15.

I have a three 10x8 colour prints of Atlantics picked up at a flea market several years ago - happy to mail them to you - probably all taken at Nelson Ledges in Ohio - dates are as stamped on the back of the prints -
- 6 Sep 1976 - Green Lola T240 - race no 7 - 'Vera' sponsor[?]
- 31 Jul 1977 - Yellow Lola T360 - race no 25
- 31 May 1981 - six Atlantics leading a mixed race group, front row is couple of March 80A's #6 black Nastasi Racing and #15 red, 2nd row is Dietrich's yellow Lola 560 #62 and black March 76? #7.

Finally do you have a history for T460-17? It has been 'over-restored' as a show car in California with many pics on the internet. Black. Again if you can't google it I have some copies.

Let me have your address if you want the three prints. email me at derek at lola7 dot com.

Derek

460-17 was the Tim Coconis car to end 1979. Then John Keller in SCCA into early
80s, then I lose it.
Your attribution of 460-12 as new to Midgley in 1976, and as red, worries me. Sometimes I wonder about sales records. I already know that your car was not the same colour as it's described in manufacturer's records. HU12 was supposedly a Robertson team car. HU2 described as blue by my source, was probably white.
Would, therefore, much like the Chuck Dietrich chassis number, as a few days back I thought I'd cracked the 460s in period, and now have fresh doubts.
Will send you address for the prints and hopefully soon have some car histories to which they can be attached.
Regarding Dedrickson, don't know him and have period histories on most of those cars - though would like confirmation that 460-HU1 was Rebaque's car, and to know who had it after him.
T360-15 was a Pierre Phillips team car, raced by Weichmann in 1975 and then I guess the car of Sans Thompson, who was a Phillips mechanic.
T460-15 the Wentz works car in 1976 then to Albert Poon. I always thought that bits of this ended up built by the Saswanto family into the Marlo. Perhaps I was wrong, or did they disassociate themselves?

Best
Chris

I talked to current owner, Dave Jordano, who confirms serial number is HU-18 - so we have confirmed ownership track for HU-18 of Carl Liebich [Atlantic series], Chuck Dietrich [SCCA], Lowell Blossom [vintage] and Dave Jordano [vintage]. Car is for sale if anyone wants it - Chicago area.

Minor item [and would not be admissible in court of law!] - the gel coat on the nose cone of my HU-6 is white. Of course nose cones were consumables so who knows where this one came from. All other fibreglass is reproduction.

Did you get the pics and the Bill Brack brochure I mailed you?

Derek

T460 HU6 was white originally according to my notes, so it might be an original nose cone. Did you get any documentation/history with the car? My current feeling is that HU6 was either Wilbur Bunce car in 76 so would have a S.Cal history afterwards - perhaps with Dennis Firestone, Sam Nicolosi, Bob Richardson - or else Steve Jizmagian's car up in San Francisco.

Chris

Chris
No documentation with HU6. Was bought from Chuck Haines in St Louis as a 'basket case' at least 10 years ago. Apparently he had it sitting around for many years before that. The young guy I bought it from likewise did almost nothing with it. Regret it will be regarded as a 'parts source' by me - too badly gone to consider renovating.

Derek

Do you know anything about T460 HU10 which seems to have sold a couple of times recently on race-cars.com and which is advertised as having been very lightly raced. Last known over in Conneticut.

On HU6 was there anything on the car - e.g. scrute's stickers - that might give a clue to the history.

Chris

Re the T760, Alo L ran it in FAt here in '79, then gave up on it mid-year and went back to his T460. Strange as it looked quite good to start with, winning the first race of the 're-born' Atlantic that year, admittedly in the very wet. When the better cars/drivers came on stream that year though, it struggled, I don't think the ground effects were up to much at all...

After that it was sold to Geoff Byman who ran it in 1980-81, again in Atlantic, and again none too quickly, though I suppose 'respectably'. I don't recall it ever with a BDG though. It was noted on here some time ago that Jeremy Bouckley later owned the car, maybe he put a BDG in??

I don't recall it ever with a BDG though. It was noted on here some time ago that Jeremy Bouckley later owned the car, maybe he put a BDG in??

Jeremy ran it mainly on the hills with an occasional sprint at Curborough. He didn't register for the British Sprint Championship so i have no specific records of the car. However I know a man who might be able to 'fill in the blanks' - I'll be back!

:fishing:

A big update on Lola T460s

HU1: Haas, used by Hector Rebaque for most of 1976 season, probably shaken down at Road Atlanta IMSA round by Klausler [the only 460 ready in time for that race]

HU2: April, probably for Steve Jizmagian and retained to 1979. Does anyone have contact for Jizmagian?

HU3: April, Sandy Shepard used SCCA until end 1977 then sold in mid west

HU4: Pierre Phillips for Tom Gloy

HU5: Jerry Hansen, then 1977 Frank Mahaney III and 1978 Steve Overton

HU6: Very probably the car of Tom Klausler, then perhaps Bob Lybarger until early 1980s

HU7: Almost certainly Wilbur Bunce Racing for Richard Melville, then to Sam Nicolosi [San Diego] 1979: Bill Woodruff

HU8: Grant Schwartz raced in Japan and SEA to 1978 at least.

HU9: Pierre Phillips: Rent a drive: Tom Weichmann/Ted Wentz/Bobby Brown/Michael Landrum/Chip Mead [OMS]/Jeff Wood [SIR SCCA]; Harald Kirberg at Laguna IMSA

HU10: David Ralston SCCA CenDiv

HU11: Dave Webber to end 77, rented to Don McKnight late 77

HU12: Robertson team car for Roos or Craig Hill. Then rebuilt to 560 spe and to Ed Midgley 1978

HU14: Probably the second team car for Bunce, used by Tim Cooper and Klausler late season. [if not HU7 this was Nicolosi's car.]

HU15: Works car in UK for Ted Wentz then to Albert Poon 1977

HU16: Robertson team car for Roos or Craig Hill; probably sold to Victor Larose when team switched to Ralts mid 76.

HU17: Tim Coconis

HU18: Carl Liebich, then Chuck Dietrich 1980-82

HU19: Perhaps Peter Thompson

HU20: Melchester Racing for Trimmer

HU21: Perhaps Kenny Briggs in SCCA 1977

HU22: Alo Lawler

Chris

[QUOTE=Dan Rear]Chris. Do we now assume the T450-1 story goes : works development, Mallock (to replace the Mallory wreck), Russell, Render. If so, and HU3 was rebuilt by the works, then to Europe as DW said, I wonder which mug from the Continent bought it, a climber perhaps ?

Re the 550/560s, I guess they were numbered in 1 sequence only, hence the US Atlantic car was HU1, and the Marazzi F2 car HU2.

QUOTE]

Whilst having another trawl through Autosport mags I spotted that at the end of 1981 David Render had two Lolas for sale.

Lola T460-01 with a 1600 BDA and

Lola T560-02 with a 2000 Hart 420R

:cool:


A little extra: Gurston Down hill climb August 1983. David Render entered in T460 1.6 but used T560 HU2 Hart 2.8.

Welcome Alan. This is going to confuse things, isn't it? :)

Allen

Question to revive this thread
Colin Haste, re T460 HU5. The set of bodywork with Steve Jizmagian's name on it...
What colour was it?

Chris

What you have so far is correct. Tim CoConis was the original owner/driver of HU-17 (he took delivery of the car thru Haas in 1976). He ran the car at least once (maybe twice?) in the Players Challenge Series in 1976. He raced the car very successfully in 1978/79 in the SCCA (won 12 of 19 races). The car was sold to Tom Keller in 1980 and was raced by Keller in SCCA events through 1984 with limited success. The car was then sold to a third owner who did not race the car as far as our research could find.

I purchased HU-17 in 1990 as an almost roller (no transaxle or engine) and in very tired condition. I restored the car (over the next 9 years) back to it's 1978/79 livery, as it was run by Tim CoConis in SCCA regional and national events. Other than a couple of minor upgrades (ignition etc.) and some fabrication of missing hardware, the car was very faithfully restored to that period authenticity. I was lucky to have been in contact with Tim during the restoration and he was very helpful, providing original color photos of the car from 1978/79, as well as some wonderful race stories.

We displayed the car in SCCA judged Concours d'Elegance events around the San Francisco Bay area in 1999/2000 (won 4 of 5 events in the retired race car class) and then went racing (SCCA and HSR/West vintage events). After a two year hiatus (our other race car used up the budget), we are now prepping HU-17 to run again this fall.

Hope that helps.

I believe the car was updated to the 560 (wider?) suspension (although there is no written record of when this was done). However, as I don't know what exactly the 560 upgrade consisted of, I'm not sure if this was the Lola upgrade or the results of normal race development of the car done during it's racing career? Anybody know exactly what the T560 upgrade actually consisted of? Thanks.

Welcome, Don, and thanks for this excellent first hand update!

Anybody know exactly what the T560 upgrade actually consisted of? Thanks.

Don
I just emailed you. I have copies of the Lola drawings for the wide suspension modification if you are interested. Also several pics.
Derek Harling

Hi Colin,

Regarding,

HU5: Jerry Hansen, then 1977 Frank Mahaney III and 1978 Steve Overton

I just discovered this site. I will confirm that I bought the Lola T-460 from Jerry Hansen while I lived in Wayzata, MN in 1977 and raced it for a year - with good success too. I'm not sure who bought it from me as I moved to San Francisco in 1978 and my wife sold it to someone in Minnesota in 1978. We raced against Bobby Rahal in his March that year - Blackhawk Farms. He out qualified me by 1/2 second and he did win, but that was my only defeat when the car did not break. We knew little about how to prepare and maintain a car like that - but it was very fast. I have several photos from that time including Jerry Hansen's Orange T-560.

Regards, Frank Mahaney



Hi All
Colin Haste "Col" Bryan Miller recomended this site to me in my quest for infomation. The background to my request is this. In 2000 I purchsed a Lola T560 HU1(The only 560 the rest are udated 460s) unfortunatly I had a high speed shunt at Sandown (aust)last Nov which left the car prety much trashed.To fill in while I rebuilt the 560 I purchsed a T360 Known localy as AU1,The car was brought into Aust By Glen Abby and Don Baker in 1974 They were introduced to Eric Broadly by Frank Gardner who worked for Eric at the time "That may fill in a hole for Bryan and Chris T" enough of that. Its hard to find someone to build tubs in a short time and being impatient I put a note on racecars.com for a T460 tub,without going into to much detail the tubs are the same except for a couple of pick up points.I was sucsessful and brought a good Tub and what was to be some bits, as it turned out I got a rolling chassis less engine and gear box plus the orinal log book and chassis plate.
What I have is Lola T460 HU5 another car that needs restoring.So now I have the full set and two cars to build.
I'm trying trace the history of this car the original owner was Jerry Hansen,Jerry was also the original owner of my T560 a real coincidence.the next two owners names are in the log book but it is hard to read the writing it looks like a T J Mahonys? then a Steve ????MD there is the name Steve Jizmagian one the body of the car and the car was purchased from a Paul Schafer in California in 1997 by the guy I brought it off but he has lost this pauls contact number.I have tried to find Jerry Hansen but it appears as though he disapearsed after his sponsers went to jail for fraud.Jerry Hansen was as it seeems a fairly good peddler but not world class he did well in the SCCA runoffs and he is mentioned there in the Lola T460 in 1976 ,he raced sports cars fairly succsfully to im told.I would be greatfull for any input. Col

Welcome Frank - and thanks for this.

Frank, many thanks, Col Haste and wife are away from home for a few days , I telephoned Col on his mobile[ cell to you guys] and he became seriously excited.
Regards Bryan.

[QUOTE=Steve Wilkinson]


A little extra: Gurston Down hill climb August 1983. David Render entered in T460 1.6 but used T560 HU2 Hart 2.8.

David Render sold T560 HU2 to Jonathan Toulmin who ran it in various sprints in the UK still with a 2.8 Hart. It was then sold to Alan Newton as a rolling chassis who returned it to it's 2.0 litre Abarth form. I do not know if he used it for sprints but I certainly know that he competed in at Shelsley. No idea where it went to after Alan. Steve Wilkinson should be able to find out.

If any one is in need I can supply a photograph of the car, but a front on view only.

[QUOTE=Alan Brown]

David Render sold T560 HU2 to Jonathan Toulmin who ran it in various sprints in the UK still with a 2.8 Hart. It was then sold to Alan Newton as a rolling chassis who returned it to it's 2.0 litre Abarth form. I do not know if he used it for sprints but I certainly know that he competed in at Shelsley. No idea where it went to after Alan. Steve Wilkinson should be able to find out.

If any one is in need I can supply a photograph of the car, but a front on view only.

My apologies for posting what has gone before. I see this information is on the T450/550 thread.

Question to revive this thread
Colin Haste, re T460 HU5. The set of bodywork with Steve Jizmagian's name on it...
What colour was it?

Chris

Chris
Sorry for the delay, the body with Jizmagian's name on is red gelcoat.

[QUOTE=Alan Brown]

David Render sold T560 HU2 to Jonathan Toulmin who ran it in various sprints in the UK still with a 2.8 Hart. It was then sold to Alan Newton as a rolling chassis who returned it to it's 2.0 litre Abarth form. I do not know if he used it for sprints but I certainly know that he competed in at Shelsley. No idea where it went to after Alan. Steve Wilkinson should be able to find out.

If any one is in need I can supply a photograph of the car, but a front on view only.


This period at Lola seems very confusing, It was always my understanding that the Arbath car was in fact a 450 although in the Starky / Wells book there is a note: that F2 T450's were sometimes referred to as T560. It could be that the T560 HU2 was in fact a 450 updated to 560 spec .
On another note , Having a new Bahner T460 tub and have built a new replacement Tub for the 560, I would hate to be the one to have to modify the tub of a 460 to 560 spec.
Colin

Frank
Thank you so much for your reply I will contact you to chat re the car. Colin

Colin

Thank you. Lola records have been wrong about original colour before...

Chris

For sale on www.race-cars.com is Lola T560-14 , with an invoice from Haas/Lola for the update kit from a T460 with a name attached that will/may assist with history.

Bryan.

Interesting.
Bob Lybarger used a 460/560 1977 to 1981. However, I'd presumed this to first have been Sandy Shepherd's car [and Lybarger, based in Iowa in the mid 70s would have been the ideal fit for the buyer he described to me.] However, the date on Haas' invoice at 12 Jan 77 means it can't have been Shepherds, as he didn't sell until August that year! The mystery deepens...

Chris

This is the ex-Midgley car which Chris shows as HU-12 in his 1st April 2006 list. Pic shows the BRIC stickers the year Midgley sold it to ??? in Texas (2001). When I first saw the car about 1999 I noticed it had the consecutive serial number to mine so it had an HU-12 plate then. Chris - why don't you write the seller via the race-cars.com site?

Derek, when I saw this was in Texas I rather wondered if that was a possibility. But we know that the Midgeley and Lybarger cars overlap. Both appear in 1979 at the June Sprints for example. I presume that Mark Barr is the seller of both. Is something rather problematic happening here...

Midgley advertised his car as HU12, how come it just got a new plate and documentation that can't have anything to do with his car.

Will be writing to seller

Chris

I've just checked the HSCC entry for the Donington meet this weekend. There's a T460 entered in Derek Bell for John Rand. Anyone know the driver/car??

Not yet. Will you be there at the weekend Dan?

No sorry Allen, my weekends are mainly cricket-dominated I'm afraid! Did you get those progs I sent you a while back?

Cricket?!? But you're from Lancashire, It's a long drive for you to see a decent match isn't it? [stands well back]

Yes I did get them and I obviously forgot to thank you profusely for them. I have only got a small way into them but all sorts of interesting things there.

Many thanks

Allen

The t460 came in from usa last year

Any idea which chassis?

For u I will enquire today :)

Does anyone know which T460 was driven in the Mid Ohio CanAm race in June 1982? Driver Don Baker. Sponsor Vic and Walts (a local VW parts dealer).
Pic at http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1982/Mid-Ohio-1982-06-27-099.jpg

there was 1 lola can am but i think it had mazda fitted now with alan cho
not sure if its 360 or 460 car
go to his lola website u will get more info fotos etc

Allan Chou's car (http://www.thelolaregistry.com/Projects/T360/T360.htm) ran in NW Conference (non-SCCA, non-FIA) races not in the CanAm series. Conference cars of this ilk were often refered to as CanAm but only in a generic sense.

The car I'm refering to was owned (and run) by a Don Baker in the Cleveland/Akron area of Ohio. It had a Hart engine. I was just hoping that recent activity on T460 history might have identified it's provenence.

Anyone?

Derek

There are a limited number of cars it can be... [and Vic and Walt run it in 1981 too]

HU1: Possible - ex Haas car and whilst the car survives I don't know the provenance
HU2: Possible, especially if this became Klausler's car - again survives but without provenance
HU3: Destroyed before 1981
HU4: Probably in Pacfic NW
HU5: Do we know where the car went after Steve Overton? My hunch is then Ernst Schneider [1980] but it could well have spent a couple of years under Can Am bodywork - it's not that far from St Louis to Akron
HU6: Real possibility given the earliest we have on this car is 1982 in Chicago
HU7: Probably in British Columbia
HU8: In Japan
HU9: Probably in Pacific NW but provenance not complete on this car
HU10: Unknown in 1981-82, right sort of area, but car appears to be almost unraced after 1976
HU11: Canada
HU12: Lybarger
HU14: Probably Ron McNear and Tom Watkins [St Louis]
[There is at least one and possibly two T460s in St Louis for most of their lives - one is HU5 [Overton-Schneider] the other probably Shepard-McNear one of these is sprinted [Solo'd] by Ron and Vicky Flier for a long time in the 80s and 90s. Is this HU5?
HU15: Philippines in bits
HU16: Possible, could be anywhere!
HU17: John Keller
HU18: Chuck Dietrich
HU19: Probably in California
HU20: In Ireland
HU21: Possible, but probably in California
HU22: In Ireland

Chris

Chris - thx for the summary. When you say Vic and Walt ran the car in 1981 was this in Atlantic? I can't find any CanAm reference. Derek

When I bought HU5 it was in New Jersy but it was bought previous to that in California but it has been a dead end there as the chap I bought the bits from said he had lost the contact details of the person he obtained it off.
Col

hey, my sister found this forum (playing with google probably) and I haven't read it all - the T460 thread started years ago.
I am the Steve Jizmagian who first bought the car and raced it until early 1979 - when I switched to the RALT.
If you need info - let me know and I will try to find stuff (buried somewhere in my junk) - I also had a Brabham that John Gale near Sydney restored and is running - visited it in 2002.
someday I will read the posts
regards to all
Steve

Steve
I'm glad your sister found the site . Can you tell me about the T460 you has? the one I bought in from the US had bodywork with your name on it. would you mind exchanging emails with me regarding some history. Colin

Steve

Welcome!! Understand from Colin that he has bodywork from your car, with a red gel coat, but that the car itself was written off in 1979.
Given your early appearances in 1976 with the car I think this has to be chassis HU3. Do you have any paperwork to confirm that?

The Ralt. Who did you buy it from?
We are very good at helping ex racers sort their junk...
Access to photos and original race documents gratefully acknowledged. Have a look at the Atlantic section over on www.oldracingcars.com and you'll see what we do with them.

Good to have you here
Chris

Chris:

Will look up stuff when I can on the Lola. got the Ralt directly from England - forgot who the importer was - it was one of the last RT1 made.

Chris
After reading back you mention Ernst Schneider in relation to my HU5 . On reflection the chap I bought the car bits off thought he bought it off a fellow named Schafer, or that is how it sounded to me. I wonder if it was in fact Schneider? Steve did not own HU5 but the body & engine cover did come from his car,the nose is the original ,painted in the colours that Frank Mahany ran.
Colin

IF the name was Scha(e)fer that could be the german f3 entrant Bertram Schaeffer but why would he have a lola T?60 atlantic car in Europe
just throwing this in to queer the pitch!
Dd your feet get wet last week Col or are u far north enough to avoid the storm?

Steve

Was the Ralt yellow, red or black? Did you sell it to a guy called Rob Mullaney by any chance?

Chris

Steve

Just to rephrase that question about who you sold it to.
Perhaps to Archie Snider late on in 1981, who then sold it on to Mullaney a couple of years later?

The last few Atlantic RT1s look like this
150: Blue delivered 6 March 79
156: Black delivered 22 May, kit car for Robertson without a tub. Probably an upgrade for Kevin Cogan, or perhaps a rebuild of Terry Knight's Stimola car
164: Yellow 12 June, given the colour and timing probably the second car for Tom Gloy's team
165: Black 24 July, maybe a new car for Steve Saleen
167: Red no date, but likely to be July.

Chris

Drifty

Bertram Schafer wouldn't have had anything to do with a Lola T460 that had already been in the USA for five years! Please don't complicate matters!

The question Colin is raising is about who bought his car from Steve Overton in late 1979 early 1980.
My theory is that it was probably Ernst Schneider because:
1: Schneider comes from St Louis, as does Overton.
2: Schneider appears in SCCA with a T460/560 in 1980.
3: applying the principle of Okham's razor - the simplest solution to a problem is the most probable - if you want to buy a second hand race car you start with the one that's least hassle, so it's in your home town and is a well maintained, proven car.

{That said there are various T460s after 1980 around the St Louis area that could also have been through Schneider's hands, and we still have to explain how the car got to California and when}

Chris

I know Schafer was in eec it was just a thought to be ruled out!

Yes yr right about guys buying local cars in USA its a big country and guys raced in scca regions and rarely crossed over to other areas except for the run offs and that when a car could be bought out of its area

Chris
Thanks for those thoughts,it does seem to fall into place. It would be good if Steve Overton happened onto the site in the same way that Frank Mahany and Steve Jizmagian have,it is great that these guys have found us and can help fill in the pieces.
Colin

Sorry I haven't logged in for a while - the Ralt was red - delivered September 1979 (one of the last ones) - don't remember who I sold it to yet - will try to find old records

sold a bunch of stuff (either T460 or Ralt) to someone in Pennsylvania area around 1988 or 1989 - cleaned out garage

That's all I remember now

I'll check in later

Thanks

Steve

would that have been mr Wonder?

I think the name was Tom - could have been Wonder

Steve

The only red Ralt RT1 delivered in 1979 is chassis 167, which is also the last Atlantic RT1 built. It ships sometime after July 79, and as your car was new in September and red, I suspect its this one.

This car is for sale with the chassis number given by Rob Mullaney in California in Aug 1985. This suggests to me that you sold the Ralt in California at least. Last use I have for you with a Ralt is 1981 in pro series and SCCA. Did you sell the car then or keep it until the mid 80s?
There's one RT1 in California that I especially think could be yours if you sold in late 81: this belongs to a Kyle Buxton of Trabuco Canyon, it appears when you disappear and it disappears when Mullaney appears.


Chris

PS: I know this is all Ralt RT1 thread material, is there a way of moving it with some of the preceding contextualising material to the right thread?

Kyle Buxton? Is this the #35 Buxton Motorsport Ralt RT1 with (allegedly) Hart 420R in Can-Am at the end of 1982?

One Kyle Buxton, there's only one Kyle Buxton....

Chris

Having been able to look at full results of the early season IMSA Atlantic races in 1976, along with some SCCA results and comparing to the Lola build records I've come up with a revision of who had what T460 and think this is likely to be pretty accurate.

HU1: Haas team car, new at Road Atlanta 11.4.76 used by Klausler, subsequently by Rebaque

HU2: New to John David Briggs, used only at Sears Point SCCA 25.4.76 and Laguna Seca IMSA 2.5.76. Perhaps sold but more likely retained and the T460 used by Kenny Briggs in SCCA in 1977

HU3: New to Steve Jizmagian, debut at Sears Point SCCA 25.4.76. Retained to 1979

HU4: New to Pierre Phillips for Tom Gloy, debut at Laguna Seca IMSA 2.5.76

HU5: New to Jerry Hansen, delivery date unknown

HU6: By process of elimination has to be the second Haas car run for Tom Klausler, debuting at Edmonton 16.5.76

HU7: New to Wilbur Bunce for Richard Melville, debuting at Laguna Seca 2.5.76. This car was late being delivered and Melville had to use a T360 at Road Atlanta in April.

HU8: New to Grant Schwartz for Japan/SEA appears once as far as I can tell.

HU9: New to Pierre Phillips as rental car, debuted by Harald Kirberg at Laguna Seca 2.5.76

HU10: New to David Rawlston, Cen Div SCCA. Perhaps used by Joe Colantonio later in 1976

HU11: Dave Webber

HU12: Robertson team car, to Bob Lybarger 1977 as T560

HU14: Sandy Shepard

HU15: Works car in UK

HU16: Robertson team car

HU17: New to Tim Coconis 12.5.76

HU18 : New to Carl Liebich 30.7.76

HU19: Wilbur Bunce Racing, second car late season

HU20: Tony Trimmer in UK

HU21: Not sold until early 77, probably to Bob Richardson, Colorado SCCA

HU22: T462 for Alo Lawler

Chris

One amendment to the above:
Rawlston kept HU10 unraced all year. Colantonio never had a T460. His 1976 car as a T360 bought from Bill Scott Racing

Chris

T460 History:

I accidently stumbled across this thread and can shed much light on HU14, if anyone is interested. I bought it from Shepard and it had an interesting few years of history (along with another one in the thread).

I will take the time to record it if there is interest. Let me know.

Ron McNear

Hi Ron

Yes, there's definitely interest. Please tell us more. We're trying to put together the complete history of each T460 so any clues on other cars are also very welcome.

Allen

Ron
Good to hear from you,Please go ahead all history is important to this site.
Colin

Ron
Welcome and thank you [you have quite made my Christmas!]
You have confirmed what I thought was the case about Sandy Shepard's car but which could not confirm. [Sandy could not remember either the chassis number or buyer of his car] Would love to hear more

Chris

Chris
HU5 was first log booked on the 6/3/76 being American I guess it was the 3rd June 76 and delivered new to Hansen.
Col

A T760 matter rather than 460/560, but there's no thread for the former, and given only 1 car made, probably not worth starting one!

Anyway, on the 'other place', Driver71 (Rich Harman) has posted some great pics of the March 79 Mallory FAt race, with Alo's T760 prominent, giving it its finest moment. Other good stuff too from that meeting, and others in 78-79. They're on the Personal Photos of racing thread.

T760 was for sale 2 poss 3 years ago i took photos car was sold broken up sold less eng/ gbox mind has gone blank on who has it now

T760 remains (less engine/box& wheels)came to me jan 2006..sold on to a customer & then sold on again, later that year, to Martin Walker in Notts. He then bought a BD engine from the US and an FT200 from me with a view to reviving it....so it may emerge again

For the ££ involved there are more interesting / VFM lolas to go for
T760 was half an attempt at a GE car
I think the car went sprinting after AL had tried it in FA events
I recall it had 1500 bda and Mk9 gearbox fitted when i saw it

Drifty, after Alo it went to Geoff Byman, who used it for UK FAt from late 1980to 1982 I think.

Fwiw, I'd have thought the car would be worthwhile preserving, its unique after all. It was a full GE car, not 'half an attempt'. I wonder if the equivalent F3s, the T770s, are still around?

t570 670 are running

Of the nine T670s built in period and the one built from spares in 1996, how many are running?

Chris

Yeah, but I wondered about T770s, not earlier cars!!

At least two T770s built [one to Switzerland, one to France] but the car used by Mike Blanchet in 1980 might be a different car to these

Chris

what car went to france?
T670 project has come up for sale there
i know 1 man has t670 racing now and another is rebuilding a t670 cos i flogged him 2 wheels 1 adaptor plate
"Our Noige" drove Lola F3 car i fink twas T570 before he got a march 783

is the T570 67 770 a new thread?

Very likely DW. mansell used a 'works development' T570 late in 77.

Not sure where it went after, but Dick Penney ran a T670 in F4 in the 80s, I don't think this was described as ex-Noige, so must have been made from old parts, or a re-import from Europe, as no 670s ran in F3 here in period.

Blanchet ran a works T770 in 79 as new, but like the Alo car, it didn't work, and IIRC he then used a T670 updated later that year (possibly this was the Penney car?). In 1980, Blanchet had the T770 updated to a T772 and went quite well in it early that year.

On another, slight, tangent, Andrew Broadley had an FSV T620, running also in F4/Monoposto early 80s I think. Unless this was the Blanchet/Penney T670...??

what car went to france?
T670 project has come up for sale there
i know 1 man has t670 racing now and another is rebuilding a t670 cos i flogged him 2 wheels 1 adaptor plate
"Our Noige" drove Lola F3 car i fink twas T570 before he got a march 783

is the T570 67 770 a new thread?

All the T670s except, perhaps, the prototype, went originally to Switzerland
Would be interested to hear any history on the two now in France.

Nige drove the first of four T570s, along with Ian Ashley and a few others
The next two went to Italy [one being Apostikis's car] and the last to Switzerland.

Maybe a thread Lola F3 cars to include the T350 and the solitary T470 [though I know what happened to that, gobbled up by a greedy T460...]

Chris

And the oft and much tested, but never raced (I think) T870. Aposkitos was also out in British F3 wasn't he too Chris in '77.

Aposkitos was also out in British F3 wasn't he too Chris in '77.

that's right Dan. Did anyone note the plate [or any other odd chassis numbers that season]? [I have most of them but you never know...]

Aposkitis started out in Italy with PEG Pordenone Corse, alongside the better known Paolo Bozzetto [who'd done OK in F2 by then]. I think they were meant to be doing the Euro F3 series but after a less than stellar debut at Ricard went away to think about it...
Bozzetto got a March 763 as temporary replacement in May, then a 773 by the end of the month. Aposkitis came to England late May, running at Brands Whit Monday meeting.

Chris