Lola T360

Was the Bailey/May/Robinson/Morrison/Bowditch T360 the one that Col has in Oz ? If so, where did the Wentz/Wella car from 75 go to? Have we been here before !!

Dan

The Morrison Bowditch T360 is HU5 and runs like this
1974: Nigel Clarkson also raced by Richard Scott
1975 Nick May
1976 Brian Robinson
1977 John Morrison
1978 Kevin Bowditch [big accident]
1979 Martin Mansell

The Scott/Bailey car in 1974 is a works prototype
but it's not AU1 which seems to have been the jig model.
I'm still trying to determine if the Bailey prototype had a model no
and if it was the Trimmer and King car in 1976 Indyatlantic

Chris

Col.

Correction it is Tom Gloy .
When I see you for coffee tomorrow , I will convince you to GO FOR IT , re.the T360's.

Don't forget the ex Mallock/ David Render car , which someone suggested may be a T450.

Bryan.

T360s as I see them:

AU1: Jig model, not raced before used by Andrew Miedecke in Aus/NZ 1977, then to John Davis 1978 for AF2

HU1: 1974: Works prototype for Richard Scott, then to Ken Bailey. Rebuilt around new tub after big accident mid season. Retained by works and next raced 1976 by Tony Trimmer in Indyatlantic. Sold from underneath Trimmer to Mike King for same series.

HU2: [The early history of this car may switch with that of HU3]
First production model, June 1974. Bill O'Connor [N.American pro series]Retained to 1976 then unknown to 1980 when raced in Can Am by Doug Moe with a Mazda 13B in it. 'The Banana Crate?' Kept by Moe at least until 1987, now being restored as single seater.

HU3: Sold with HU2, this car for Tom Klausler, but owned by O'Conner's team. 1975: O'Conner for Mike Hall

HU4: July Probably for Gary Magwood [CAN], badly damaged retained until 1976 and raced again by Magwood then [or perhaps a second hand car] Big accident. Probably scrapped.

HU5: August. Nigel Clarkson [UK] also raced by Richard Scott. 1975: Nick May. 1976: Brian Robinson. 1977: John Morrison. 1978: Kevin Bowditch. 1979: Martin Mansell

HU6: Can't find another T360 in competition apart from HU7 which is a known quantity, so don't know who this went to or if it appeared.

HU7: November. Wella for Ted Wentz, used by Wentz to Sept. 1975

The total run of T360s is 16, not including AU1 or the T362 raced by Wentz late 75 [which could be 360 HU1 with development work]

In 1975 the following appear, at present in unknown cars

Bill Scott Racing: Elliot Forbes Robinson
Bill Scott Racing: Howdy Holmes
Bill Scott Racing: Bob Young
Bill Scott Racing: Freddy Phillips
Tom Gloy
Bobby Rahal
Alan Karlberg
Pierre Phillips: Tom Weichman then Dave Walker
Tom Klausler

1976: Dan Marvin and Victor Larose appear in 360s in Canada
1978 Elkhart Lake report has Liebich in a T362! Is this the development car sold to Canada?

Thanks for the 360 stuff Chris, Bryan has just shouted lunch which means I owe him now,
T360 AU1 I have just had a chat with Don Baker who imported the car.I have a test sheet which came from Don showing a test at Silverstone on 30/4/74 titled 360/1 driver Richard Scott the car was disassembled but the tub was not pulled apart. The car unassembled along with two unassembled tubs, relative spares and drawings were air frieghted to Australia ( Don was a flight steward for Qantas at the time) it arrived three weeks before the June Meeting at Oran Park Don And Glen Abby worked flat out to change the engine bay to suit a twin cam and have the car ready for the meeting on the 23rd June.Chris Farrel owned the car as he say's for one and a half days.(another story)it was driven for Don And Glen by Graham Lawrence NZ,and Keven Bartlet the car was finaly sold to Doug Macarthur ,Doug raced two seasons in F2 with the car.Changing the brakes to-front four pot and moving the front calipiers to the rear also a lot strenghting to the front in the area around the shocker pickup and brace.(I still race against Doug he runs an RT1 these days)in 76 the car less engine went to Andrew Miedecke who ran it in the Stuyvesant series in NZ.He also wrote and artical in racing car news Feb 77 titled "big valves V little valves-why we should have chosen Formula Pacific" refering to Australian F2.The car continued in F2 using various engines untill brought back to Formula Atlantic form for historic racing in the mid 90s.
Col

More on 360s
H 20? is in the US owned by Cy Moreland he does not believe it has any history other than SCCA club stuff.
HU18 is also owned by CY ,this car became T361 sold first to Bruach Racing Cy describes the car as having a 460 rearend grafted to the 360 tub and some funky looking A armes.Quote.he bought the car off Carl Liebech the first US owner the car was crashed by carl before Cy bought it,as Cy is friends with both Carl and Ted Wentz I may see what other info on Lola Atlantics we may get.
Chris I wounder if this is the T362 you talk of.
Col

Colin

HU18: If it is ex Bruach Racing it's the Mike King car/Tony Trimmer development car from 1976 and probably the Leibich T362.
I don't know if we can definitely tie this back to the Wentz T362 yet

Chris

Chris

Confused here, did you say only 18 T360s built, so how is there a HU18. Or is this the ex Wentz 1975 T362, slightly rebuilt for 76, and then called a T360 ? If so, did it go to Liebech later that year. If not where to ?

Btw does anyone know what happened to the ex-everyone UK car, HU5, after Martin Mansell in 1979 ? He later had a March of unknown provenance (to me at least) in the UK after this.

Dan

The production figure could well be wrong, it might exclude prototypes and development cars, even when they have plate numbers. This is one of those things you never trust absolutely.
Allen and I have learned this to our cost with the complex histories [aka "the mess"] that are Lola T190s and 192s where Lola were not above swapping production line cars with slightly used development models.
HU18 could be about right for the last T360 especially if they never built HU13.

Chris

Chris & Dan
361, the info I have comes from Carl Liebech & Ted Wentz,aparently Cy Knows both.When the car was purchased from Carl Liebech Cy was told the car was first owned in the UK by Bruach racing Liebech was the first US owner he also has a build list that came with the car which goes like this.No HU1,13,19 the last 360 HU22 sold to Carl Haas 20 Feb 75. 12 cars white gelcoat 3 red 2 black 1 blue (361) he also has the Hewland # that go with chassis and dates of sale.
If you look at Auto sport 13 may 1976 there is a picture of TTrimmer in whats called the development 360 and Wentz in the new 460 a good look at the rear end shows them pretty much the same engine frame and certinly unlike a 360 engine frame the body still 360 though.
Dan, according to all I have been able to source it seems unsure if there was 16 or 19 360s.
Col

Hi Chris; Just to update your files, I had purchased HU2 T360 earlier this year from Doug Moe. As you had indicated, Doug ran the car in the NW Can Am series with a 13B rotary motor throuhout the 80's. The recieved side pods and fenders to comply with the class. I have been told by many competitors and onlookers of the day that the car was fast and loud. The Car is in que for a total restoration after my T492 and T594. You can see pictures of what it was and now is on the Lola Registry under project files at The Lola Registry (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/gearbox/myweb2/index.htm) which I run. Please take a look at the site, the new Forum that we just put up and take a moment to register your Lola. Thanks Allan T. Chou

Colin

Many thanks. Any chance of a complete breakdown of the build list with dates of sale? I presume that they are all via Haas but the dates and colours might help eliminate some. From your message I take it that HU1 is not listed [which I take to be the Scott/Bailey car running as a development model], nor 13 [as usual with Lola] nor 19.

Does Carl Liebich have details of the other Lolas he owned apart from the T361/2? Did he own another 360 before this?

Agree with you about the rear ends of Trimmer's and Wentz's cars.

Chris
I'm working on the list; in the meantime, some more to think about. I have been in contact with David Dettrickson in the US he has a T360 HU 15 "Pierre Phillips Motorsport, ran the Canadan Players series in 75 with Tom Weichmann.

all
as yet I have not received a reply in regard to the list of first owners supplied with 360s in the US,nor any history on most cars tracted down it seems in the US most cars ran division and national SCCA.The SCCA dont have any records to speak of or they are unavailable and the owners of the cars are lucky if they remember the name of the previous owner,there is no sence of history its just a old race car,pitty.I have in the past tryed to get info out of Lola which has to come from there heritage site.To access this you have to pay a ridiculously high (by Australian standards) fee to join only to find out they dont know.
Chris: Allan knows David Dettrickson but I dont think he has any further info in regard to Allans Can Am car.
It gets frustrating but we plug on.
Col

Colin

It's very unlikely that the Lola sales list has first owners on it. What we can do, gradually, is trace back from last owner, and trace forward on colour and date. [For example, one or both of the black 360s is going to be for Elliot Forbes Robinson running with Penthouse sponsorship for Bill Scott Racing.] What colour is [was?] the Weichmann car originally?
Also, this car disappeared very early in 75 [two pro races]. I was wrong about Walker using it. That was Weichman's 460 the following year.

Finally, Lola T350s. This was the F3 version of the 360 but how many were built?
I know Robert Joubert used one in the Canadian Atlantic series, which he'd run early season in British F3. Were there ever any others?

Chris

Derek

Thanks, that's interesting. Most of the earlier Lola build records just show the agency that sold the car and for the US and Canada most cars went through Haas at that time, so I was figuring that what we see for the 360s would simply have a date of sale, Haas as consignee and a colour.

Chris

I enjoyed a brief encounter as an owner of a T460. I bought it off Brian Robinson in 77 and it had a fruity Richardson BDX and triangular side tanks. We did a Shellsport race at Mallory before selling to Mike Gue. I heard the new owner piled it up first test outing.
We collected Silverstone's fastest lap of the year in it ahead of Kim Mather, so it wasn't slow.
Have we a picture ... already posted in the Mallory Park Hairpin thing.
Was it a 460 or a 360 with some mods? We won the British SuperVW series in a 76 362 though I'm not sure of it's model number. We do have a piccy of that, at Zandvoort, the day my mechanic broke both his legs ...

Sorry, I see it now in an earlier submission - it was a 360 HU5, 'xuse me.

I do remember a 360 racing in Ireland. Greenan had a T360 which went to Pat Murphy whoraced it in the dying days of Irish FA. I dont know where it went after. Body was initialy orange, later red, white and mid blue.

Dave.

It's probably not relevant, but there's one 360 still resident in the emerald Isle, property (now) of Chris Fair and in bits pending restoration. It came here from Scotland where it had been fitted (very badly) with a Weslake V6 ( and bent in the middle over bumps !). Robert McGimpsey ran it on a few hills but things kept breaking, none too surprisingly, and it moved to present owner whose plans for it are uncertain. Don't know the provenance, but the Scottish connection might help.....

John/gfm, I remember your 1976 FSV Lola, a T362 I think. Did you get out much in Britain that year, or just in Europe, which I belive was still pretty strong FSV-wise in those days. Good picture (colour) of it on the front of MN early that year, at the 'Ring maybe, did you win there at that meeting???

Richard, i wonder if the Irish T360 is the ex-May/Robinson/gfm/Bowditch/Mansell car. Its the only T360 I can think stayed for long over here. Can you help here Chris ??

The Irish 360 could be HU5 [John's old car] or maybe the remains of HU7 [Wentz's original car]. Also, we don't know for sure what happened to the original Scott/Bailey car from 1974, which - if it wasn't the car now known as AU1 - doesn't appear after mid 74

Chris

Lamb did paint the car green. I know naught what it was before...

The orange T360 was definitly a T360. It was unused for a long time before Murphy got it. My Dad considered buying it at the time but went instad for a Modus.

The Robert McGimpsey Lola-WeslakeV6 was somthing different - not a 360/460 thing. The tub was quite different. It reminded me more of a T330ish thing (but F2 sized).

Dave.

Chris.

We have already decided AU-1 was in OZ the same weekend the Scott/Bailey car was in use in the U.K.
So that leaves it free over in your neck of the woods to get up to all sorts of mischief.

Bryan.

Dan

I agree. ATS only ever entered one car, shared between Kozarowitzky, Arpianen and Wentz.
Roland Binder had one.
Mallock stuffs one and gets it replaced. This might well be HU3 replacing HU1 except it doesn't satisfy the provenance for the Render car as being ex Mallock-Russell. [Which HU1 replacing HU3 does].

The T362 is T360 - HU18 which Wentz took on in Sept 75 after Roy Baker threw HU7 at the Oulton Park banks in testing. Used by Trimmer early 76 then to Mike King, both in Indyatlantic, then to Carl Liebich in Canada and still there.

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
The Irish 360 could be HU5 [John's old car] or maybe the remains of HU7 [Wentz's original car]. Also, we don't know for sure what happened to the original Scott/Bailey car from 1974, which - if it wasn't the car now known as AU1 - doesn't appear after mid 74

Chris

Sorry to come in half way through the thread. Although I can't confirm the chassis number of the Bailey/Scott car. I can confirm the the car was destroyed at Silverstone on the first lap of the British GP support race in '74 along with several others in a huge shunt at Copse on the first lap. However, when the remains were taken back to Lola's factory, Ken was given a brand new tub. THe new car was built up transfering as many of the bits that were salvagable from the damaged car. Ken's mechanic spent a week at the factory building up the new car. but because it never had as many "trick" bits as the original car it was never as quick, so Ken and Lola parted company. Ken's mechanic spends most of his time in he States now but I'll try and ask him if he can remember any important bits of info about the 2 cars. the original one was predominately dark blue with a few orange sections by the way

Dan & Chris
T362 HU18 is in the states and owned by a Cy Moreland (see my post page 3) he calls it a T361 and discribes it as a 460 rear with a 360 front,see page 164 of the Starky book Lola 57 to 77the car top left discribed as a T450 looks like the car.interesting that the Scott/Baily car was dark blue my T360 AU1 as discribed was also dark blue.
Colin

Restoring HU2 and would like to find out if anyone has, or know where I could possibly find period pictures of the car. The car was driven by a Mike Hall of United Racing Ltd. with the number 26. I found 6 races that the car participated in during 1975. 5 races with the Players Formula Atlantic Series (Canada) and one race with the SCCA Formula B race in Brainerd. Trying to see how the car was configured and the paint and graphics that were on the car during that year. Anyone have any pics? Also any later information between 76-80 would be helpful as well. Thanks Allan

Is it a 360 or a 360B?
My records have Hall in a 360B in 1975

Hi Allan

Just been looking around your web site and have dropped you an email. Please let me know if you have any issues with my request.

I'm happy to help with the history of T360 HU2. As well as the Formula Atlantic results that I guess you've seen on OldRacingCars.com, I also have some information regarding its time as the 'Banana Crate Special' in Can-Am.

Kind regards

Allen Brown
OldRacingCars.com

David- My chassis plate shows this as a T360 (A), not B, HU2 and engine number 007 342. What does the A and B suffixes mean? And while I have seen these suffixes on other cars, I have not yet come across the same HU number repeated. I assumed it was for a purpose built car for a customer who wanted a slight change from standard configuration. So Lola would have pulled the next chassis and stamped the plate with a A,B, or S after the sequential HU number. But I am not absolutely sure.

Allen - I'm on it. I did see your site and several others have found the following info on the car.

1975 - 5 races in the Palyer (Canadian) Formula Atlantic Series, and one race with the SCCA Formula B Series. Driven by Mike Hall under United Racing Ltd., #26, appears that Bill O'Connor was his team mate

1976 - 1986 No information found, although Doug Moe (SCCA Chapter President Wa), previous owner, told me he campaigned the car throughout the 80's in the CAT series around the Seattle Washington area with a Mazda rotary in Can Am configuration.

1987 - World Sports Racing Prototypes shows the car running in the Can Am CAT series in 4 races driven by Bill Hill, possibly called the "Banna crate" under number 73. I assume this was the last time the car raced since the CAT series ended shortly thereafter, and I had recieved the car in that configuration. This is a period shot from one of those races, but be warned, it is pretty ugly http://www.thelolaregistry.com/Projects/T360/T360.htm

I believe Bill Hill would have had this car before Doug Moe and I think he ran it in Can-Am as the Banana Crate before the CAT series in 1987. The CAT series only lasted that one year so I don't know what races Doug Moe would have raced it in. SCCA Nationals or Regionals?

Allen

The period of the Lola T360s was when I began to realise the impossibility of tracking every individual racing-car ever built, and as a result even I don't trust my records as much as I do those for earlier years.
However, my assumption was that the 360B was an updated version of the 360, based on (a) no mention of 360Bs before 1975 and (b) a history for one 360B quite different from a 360 with the same HU number. Perhaps that was just my naiveté showing!
Your mention of a 360A throws me completely!

Allen - I understand your logic for the time line, but I was going on anecdotal information from Doug Moe. He had owned a Mazda dealership or was involved with Mazda somehow and I was told he was the one who fabricated the car. Bill Hill was a friend of his who ran it in the CAT series for that one year. I recall he telling me that he had just used the car in local SCCA events. I had also been contacted by several other Seattle area racers who remembered the car and Doug who again was the chapter President at that time. Apparently there was another T360 unknown HU number, that was converted to this same Mazda configuration by Doug in the Seattle area. I spoke to the owner briefly but he was not interested in providing any meaningful information and wanted a new Harley in trade. I assume that there were a few of these cars in that area which ran at the club or regional level.

David - Welcome to the club. With only 19 T360's made according to Lola Cars Ltd., you would think it would be easier. Plus I see HU20 surfacing on Race-cars.com and have found no history on that car. I spoke with Colin Haste who owns the frist prototype which was used as a buck by Lola and sold later in Australia with a AU1 Lola plate. HU2 was suppose to be the first production car sold. But I found information on a HU1 that I am tracking down. I'll contact Lola Cars Ltd. and see if I could clear up the suffix issue. Perhaps they could shed some light here. Will let you know, Allan

I didn't realise Moe was Hill's owner. In that case, the Banana Crate Mazda that Hill drove in 1984, 1985 and 1986 may have been a different car.

Clarification to my last post. Just spoke with Dean Baker who owns HU22. He believes that Lola Cars did not manufacture the T360's with the numbers HU1, 7, and 13. Ergo HU 22 was the 19th and last T360 made. First (B) car I found was Ted Wenz's car which was configured as an Atlantic and Formula 2 car in order for Wenz to make good on his sponsorship obligations. But I understand Weller (sp?) fabricated the changes so not sure if Lola would have had stamped a (B) on the plate. Still checking with Lola Cars Ltd. about the (A) and (B) classifications. Were there any publications that covered the Player races that would have any pictures? Maybe one of Bobby Rahal with the 26 car being passed in the foreground? :rotate:

Clarification to my last post. Just spoke with Dean Baker who owns HU22. He believes that Lola Cars did not manufacture the T360's with the numbers HU1, 7, and 13. Ergo HU 22 was the 19th and last T360 made. First (B) car I found was Ted Wenz's car which was configured as an Atlantic and Formula 2 car in order for Wenz to make good on his sponsorship obligations. But I understand Weller (sp?) fabricated the changes so not sure if Lola would have had stamped a (B) on the plate. Still checking with Lola Cars Ltd. about the (A) and (B) classifications. Were there any publications that covered the Player races that would have any pictures? Maybe one of Bobby Rahal with the 26 car being passed in the foreground? :rotate:

Try Autosport as they often ran accounts of the Player series. :cool:

Allan:
A good person to contact for pictures of FB-Atlantic races is Chris Waddell
who has supplied me with many images from 1975.
If you send me a pm I will give you his email. There are no pictures Hall or Connor in British mags, and I can't remember any in Formula for that year.
From race and newspaper reports and interviews I believe that the HU2 car
run by O'Connor for Hall in 1975 was the car he ran for Tom Klausler in late 74.
Based on appearances - rather than Lola build records for the T360 which I've
never obtained - HU1 was probably the works supported car run in England for
Ken Bailey and Richard Scott.
There are numerous interviews with Klausler in 74 and press reports in the American and Canadian press which confirm that United Racing bought the first
two production T360s. There is one interview wtih Klausler that implies he had the first of these. These would be HU2 and HU3
The first confirmed chassis no we have for a T360 is HU5 - the Clarkson car in late 74. However, there appears before this one other car, for Gary Magwood in Canada, which suggests HU4 on the basis of appearance dates.
HU6 is not recorded anywhere, but might have been Lola's replacement for HU1 when Ken Bailey had a very big accident in late summer 1974. My suspicion is that this car was then the works supported car in the Canadian series in 1975, driven by Dave Walker, so it probably ended up in the US/Canada.
HU7 [built Nov 1974] is recorded both by Adam Ferrington and Motoring News in early 1975 as the Wentz car. No B suffix, or anything special about the plate it would seem. The candidate for the T360B would surely by HU18 - the late 1975 season works development car loaned to Wentz after HU7 was written off. However, the plate of this seems to state it's a T360, not a B nor even a T362 as it's sometimes called.

Of the later cars I only have partial histories on HU14 and 15, both of which may have gone to Pierre Phillips' team in 1975.

Allen [Brown!]: From what I've recently found in an American ad it would seem as though the Banana Crate was a name applied to differing cars. At some point in the 1980s Moe owns a March Atlantic chassis.

Chris

From

Based on appearances - rather than Lola build records for the T360 which I've never obtainedDo you want to? I think I have a source...

Allen [Brown!]: From what I've recently found in an American ad it would seem as though the Banana Crate was a name applied to differing cars. At some point in the 1980s Moe owns a March Atlantic chassis.That's bad news. Time to contact Bill Hill I think. I have an email address for him. Or is anyone else already in contact with him?

Allen

Do I want T360 build records?
See that bear disappearing towards the treeline, carrying a roll of Andrex?

I presume that Haas will be the usual consignee, but colour and date can tell
us a lot with T360s

Chris

I'll see what I can do

(T360s reminded me that I'd never announced the 1976 G8 results on ORC. Just done that. :o )

Bill Hill just emailed me back and confirmed that the 'Banana Crate' and the Lola T360 were completely different cars. The Banana Crate was based on a March chassis and was written off in a spectacular accident in 1986.

Chris - T360 sheet in the post to me very soon, I've just been told.

Allen

Recieved a response from Lola Heritage regarding the missing numbers and the suffix (A) (B) etc. Here's what they had to say:

I can answer part of your question as it relates to the numbering. From the T210/212 series of cars no vehicles were dispatched with a chassis number 13. Up until then there was a 13 in all model runs which reached that many cars. However there was some inconsistancy as the following models did have a chassis number 13;

T644, T87.00, T88.00, T89.00, &T89.50.
One of the senior members of staff recalled that Bobby Rahall chose to purchase chassis numbered 13 as a' good luck' influence so perhaps that is why the majority of those bearing that number are Champcars. The refernce to 1 & 7 seems to be erroneous save that chassis 1 in some cases was a Factory development car and probably sold later under a different type number or sequence.

As to the suffix letters there is no one who recalls them being used or why if they were. I have sent a message to Laurie Bray to see if he can shead any light on that for you. I will let you know his reply in due course.

Allen - Did Bill Hill mention anything about HU2 when he raced it in 1987? Confirming ownership and what happened before and after? Thanks Allan

Chris - PM'ed you for Chris Waddell's contact info. If you would like, just e-mail it to me directly at gearbox@comcast.net Thanks Allan

Chris
Cy Moreland has the colours and gearbox to chassis numbers records you may have his email if not let me know and I will send it independant of this site. Colin

Colin

Allen has received T360 sales records from an un-named source. They don't really help that much except that the sequence runs HU2 to HU22. HU1 doesn't appear but has to be the UK prototype car since it appears before any of the dates for sales. HU7 is given as sold to Planner International [this was the company that owned the Wella brand, Wentz's sponsor] Neither chassis 13 nor 19 appear on the record. 13 wouldn't have been built. 19 is a bit odd. The shipment dates, and order numbers are not in sequence with the chassis numbers. The last ordered and shipped is HU17 in July 75.
The one extra car we can immediately identify is HU16 going to Pierre Phillips. This would have been the car for Tom Gloy

Chris

I have a 10x8 colour print picked up at a flea market several years ago - happy to mail to you - probably taken at Nelson Ledges in Ohio - dates are as stamped on the back of the prints -
- 31 Jul 1977 - Yellow Lola T360 - race no 25
Let me have your address if you want the print. email me at derek at lola7 dot com.

T360-15 was a Pierre Phillips team car, raced by Weichmann in 1975 and then I guess the car of Sans Thompson, who was a Phillips mechanic.

Derek

The yellow and black T360 from 1977 I don't know, but might be Rick Koehler.

Dan

I agree. ATS only ever entered one car, shared between Kozarowitzky, Arpianen and Wentz.
Roland Binder had one.
Mallock stuffs one and gets it replaced. This might well be HU3 replacing HU1 except it doesn't satisfy the provenance for the Render car as being ex Mallock-Russell. [Which HU1 replacing HU3 does].

The T362 is T360 - HU18 which Wentz took on in Sept 75 after Roy Baker threw HU7 at the Oulton Park banks in testing. Used by Trimmer early 76 then to Mike King, both in Indyatlantic, then to Carl Liebich in Canada and still there.

Chris

Is this T362, ie HU18, the one mentioned in the latest MSport, that Steve Maxted's got for this year? If so, I presume he's brought it in from the US.

T360 HU18 is indeed the car that Steve has bought back from the US.

Chris

And time for a periodic, but serious, update of T360 history

AU1 works jig model in 1974, to Andrew Miedecke 1977 for AF2, then John Davis

HU1 [Dark blue] works development car in UK in 1974, for Richard Scott and then Ken Bailey. Does not appear in build record. Perhaps sold to US for Allan Karlberg in 1975/6

HU2 [White] United Racing in June 74 for Tom Klausler. Retained 1975 for Mike Hall.

HU3 [White] United Racing in June 74 for Bill O'Connor; retained until end 1976

HU4 [White] no idea!!! [might be Karlberg car]

HU5 [Black] Nigel Clarkson and Richard Scott in UK, from July 74. 1975: Nick May; 1976: Brian Robertson; 1977: John Morrison; 1978: Kevin Bowditch; 1979: Martin Mansell

HU6 [White, repainted black] for Gary Magwood in Canada, August 1974.
Retained to end 1976

HU7 [White] Nov 74 to Planer Intl for Ted Wentz, 1975 British season. Destroyed in testing accident by Roy James, at Oulton, Sept 75 and replaced by HU18

HU8 [Red] Bobby Rahal, 1975

HU9 [Red] Robert Young [SCCA and odd pro race] 1975 -1978

HU10 Don't know - could be Klausler '75 or a Scott team car

HU11 Don't know - could be Klausler '75 or a Scott team car

HU12 White to Sandy Shepard April 75 for SCCA. Returned to Haas in p/x on a T460 in early 76

HU14 Sold to early 75 to an LA driver/owner allegedly called Tom Carnets who I cannot trace

HU15 [Red] sold via Pierre Phillips to Tom Weichmann for 75. [Raced once] then to Sans Thompson [Seattle] SCCA until 1978, then Bill Moll [Seattle] unraced

HU16 [Black] Pierre Phillips' team car in 1975 for Tom Gloy.

HU17 [White] last car delivered and probably the team spare for Bill Scott's team in late 75 season

HU18 [Blue] Works development car for T460. Raced late 75 by Wentz, then Trimmer and mike King 1976 UK. To Carl Liebich 1978 as spare car

HU19 not built?

HU20 [White] Freddy Phillips from July 75 [run by Scott] then used by Harry McDonald early 76

HU21 [White] Robert Joubert for Dave Walker 1975 Canadian series

HU22 Delivered as early as Feb 75 for Bill Scott team, either car of Howdy Holmes or EFR.

Chris

HU14 Sold to early 75 to an LA driver/owner allegedly called Tom Carnets who I cannot trace

Tom Carsten?
He was well-known in Californian racing circles in an earlier period. Not sure if he was from LA though, or further north

I wonder where HU5 went after Mansell in the UK FAt series in 79 ?? I don't recall it here at all after that.

Dan

I don't think there was much left of it. Bowditch crashed it very hard.
Mansell called it a Lola FA79 rather than a T360

Chris

Agreed Chris, but I saw it out in 79, so it must have been a runner then at least.

Jim Frank has just emailed me to say he now owns HU20 with history researched all the way back to Bill Scott. Details on the way to you Chris so you can digest.

Just wanted to set the record straight on a few counts.

1. I drove and have in my collection T360 HU-9(not 8) which I drove in the 1975 Players F/At Championship.

2. I tested T362? at Snetterton and Silverstone for Lola along with fellow American Ted Wentz in Oct? of 1975. This was the prootype for the T460

3. Because I won Indy in 86 with March #13, we thought we'd try the same # when we switched to Lola for the 1987 season. We weren't superstitious were we! We didn't win at Indy but I did win my second consecutive championship in the car

4. As an aside, I also own Lola T290 HU-34 which I drove in 1973 and 1974 SCCA events, winning the Central Division Bs/r National Championship in '74

Hope this clears some things up. It's a great site!

Very warm welcome, Bobby; great to have you on board.

Bobby, welcome aboard from the bottom of the world.

HU-9 , to B. Rahal , Chris , is that the sound of wheels falling off the little red wagon that I hear.

Bryan.

It's great to have you here Bobby. Be warned we may have one or two questions :)

Hello everybody. I am new to this site but I have been following it for a little while now. I own T360 HU22 and currently race it in North American Monoposto events. I have been told it was the last one built (Feb. '75) and I am certain it was one of the BSR cars as noted in your last update. Excellent site and very interesting reading.
Dean Baker

Dean

HU22 was built in February, shipped to Haas 22. Feb 75. However, a number of cars were sent later than this, culminating in HU17 being sent out in July.

I think it was a BSR car, simply on delivery date and colour.
Do you have a log book, or any part of an ownership trail? If we can eliminate some of the unknowns in this jigsaw it helps get the provenances clearer all round.

Chris

Chris,
I do have log books but they only go back to 1978 or so. My understanding is that it was originally white which might suggest Howdy Holmes car as it was white with blue and red stripes (Jiffy Mixes livery). There were also some funky modifications to the pedal box of the car that might have suggested a shorter driver although the car had passed through a few hands before I got it. Also of note is that I have 3 1/2 complete sets of original wheels that came with the car and each piece of each wheel is stamped "BSR", presumably for identification at the tire busters since there were other teams running T360s. Perhaps the other BSR cars have the same stampings?
Always looking for more info and original photos if you know of any sources. Unfortunately I do not have that elusive document connecting car, driver, and team.
Dean

Dean

Are you by any chance related to the famed Dick Baker, doyen of Canadian vintage racing? I recall that he had a son Dean.

Allen

Dean

Can I ask who the ownership trail begins with?
I'm hoping for either Guy/Gary Revesz [SCCA Cen Div] or Peter Dragffy [Montreal]
If not?

Chris

I believe the first own in the logbook was a guy by the name of jim O'Brien. I will have to confirm this and the date.
Dick Baker is my father.
Dean

Chris
I see we have T360 HU1 as having a dark blue body T360 AU1 also came with a Dark blue body.
Colin

Colin

I think that HU1 and AU1 have demonstrably separate histories in 1974.
My feeling is that AU1 is the car tested by Bond in 1973
HU1 may well have morphed into the later works development car.

Chris

Chris sorry a misunderstanding, I was just pointing out for the record that AU1 came with a dark blue body. it was also "for the record" bought in to Aus by Don Baker & Glenn Abbey for Chris Farrell.
Col

I see that Bev Bond was entered in some 1973 (yes thats right!!) UK FAt races in a T360. Anyone know anymore about this?

Dan

Entered, but never appeared. I think this was probably with what became AU1 and things never went beyond the testing stage.

Chris

I know it's been a while since i last posted but came across this picture of father Ken in the ex-Richard Scott car at Brands in 1974. If i remember correctly Ken retired after a piece of the nose cone detached itself causing the car to suffer from chronic understeer. Having to "throw the car" into the corners to get round, he confessed to "throwing it too far" at Dingle Dell and went off backwards through a corner marker board and hit the armco damaging the steering rack.

It's interesting that the rear wing of this car is set with a much larger canterlever than the standard T360 and is not using the Lola fairing. This would not help the understeer.
Colin Haste

As i recall, because this was the works development car, the factory were constantly trying new ideas out. I'm not sure if this picture shows the car inits final form but, one idea was try a spacer to mount the rear wing a lot further back and one at the front too which pushed the nose out further. I do have pictures of it on the grid at Silverstone just before it was destroyed at Copse!! This gives the impression of the car being really, really long.The understeer was induced because a huge piece of the nose cone (which had been moulded on for this race, another factory mod) had become detached and eventually flew off.

Ken was super impressed with this car as it was very, very quick but extremely fragile. during qualifying for its final race, ken lost the clutch a few laps into the session plus the handling went awry with it suffering from major understeer. Despite all this, Ken put the car on the front row! Upon investigation, it was discovered that a clutch pipe had burst and all the fluid had escaped (hence no clutch) and a rear anti-roll bar link had sheared off leaving the rear of the car with no arb at all, hence the understeer!

Here's another shot of Ken that I took at the '74 British GP.

http://www.lolaheritage.co.uk/Misc/Bailey_lolaT360.jpg

Gerald.

http://www.lolaheritage.co.uk

Cracking photo, must tell Dad to have look at that one!

You get a good idea from that shot just how far back the rear was mounted and how forward the nose was. Dad always referred to the car in its "long" form!

Cracking photo, must tell Dad to have look at that one!

You get a good idea from that shot just how far back the rear was mounted and how forward the nose was. Dad always referred to the car in its "long" form!

Just looks like it is set up for sprinting!

:relax:

Just looks like it is set up for sprinting!

:relax:
Now there's an idea!! All I need to do is sell the Formula Ford and go out and buy an Atlantic! What I wouldn't give to have a go in of those fantastic cars.

Seriously though I've been meaning to get hold of the guy who used to look after Dad's cars and see if he can remember any interesting bits info about the Lola. For example, after Ken wrote the car off at Silverstone in 1974 and had a new car built up around a new tub, was the chassis plate swopped over? Or was it given a new one?

I'll let you know how I get on

And time for a periodic, but serious, update of T360 history

HU7 [White] Nov 74 to Planer Intl for Ted Wentz, 1975 British season. Destroyed in testing accident by Roy James, at Oulton, Sept 75 and replaced by HU18

Chris
This is a great website!

In the interest of complete accuracy T360 HU7 was sold to David Mill's company Planners International in November of 74 for Thruxton then the 75 Atlantic season. It was pretty much written off in a testing accident at Silverstone the following September by Roy James who had recently been a guest of Her Majesty for his part in the Great Train Robbery. Fortunately Roy wasn't injured. I still have the instrument panel for that car on my garage wall. Lola's Bob Marston has the steering wheel, but who knows what happened to the rest of it.

T460 HU15 sponsored by Swan Lager was actually a works-owned car until the end of the 1976 season when it was sold to a customer after winning the Indylantic championship.

While I'm at it, March 74B-1 was sold to Mill's Planners International in November of 1973 for the 1974 F Atlantic championships. Planners had secured the Wella sponsorship for the 1973 FF series and for the 74 and 75 British F Atlantic seasons.

Hope this helps.

Welcome Ted!

T360-HU 8 is for sale on www.race-cars.com

I was the mechanic on this car when Nigel Clarkson / Richard Scott drove it. Lola did their testing at Silverstone so the car went well there but was slow on a handling circuit. We tweeked the rear wing to get more angle on it & made the splitter for under the nose. This really made a big difference but it still needed more downforce on the front. For the last race we ran in it we bolted 15 kg of of lead in the footwell. Richard put it on pole at Thruxton in this form. I then built up a March 722 special which had the Lola wing out the back & a 732 nose spaced out the front similar to whats been done to the Lola. The March went really well & I can imagine how well the Lola would have gone as shown in the photo. It looks really good. We were testing at Snetterton & Eric Broadley was there. He saw the splitter & other mods we had done & told me to take that "all that **** off". From photos I have seen it looks like our splitter became standard kit.

Ralph Hume

Great to hear more info about the development on the T360. From your post Ralph do I understand that you had left Lola by the time that Ken took the car over?

No I never worked for Lola. I was working for Vern Schuppan & we initially ran a March for Nigel Clarkson. Nigel decided to get a new car so we for some reason to choose the T360. Then we meet Richard Scott via Geoff Richardson whose engines we used & Richard did some testing & raced the car a few times. The worst thing I remember about the car was it was difficult to reinstall the engine due to having to line up all the tubes attached to the engine. I spent ages trying to find a way to line everthing up but never did. It was always a matter of making it fit.

Ralph
Welcome, and thanks for some interesting and informative posts
Was the car you ran for Clarkson Vern's original March 722?

Chris

No it was Chris Cramers ex hill climb car. Don't know the chassis number. Nigel did 3 or 4 races & it was replaced by the Lola. The 722 was then sold to a guy in the Philippines. Verns 722 was updated for 1973 with a wide nosed body kit developed by Dennis Falconer & raced in this form in England & the Far East. This body was great on handling circuits but was slow on fast ones. Was on the front row of an F2 race at Oulton Park & at the next race at Hockenhiem we struggled for straight line speed. This body kit further developed in 74 to narrow nose & wings & did a few Atlantic races in this form. At the end of the year fitted a modified March 732 body & narrow track 732 suspension. We spaced the nose forward about 300mm & added a splitter but retained the side radiators. At the back we fitted a tweaked Lola T360 wing. The first race we did was at Macau. Out of the box it was great & Vern put it on pole & won the race. The car stayed at Macau & was raced in subsequent years by guests of Mr Teddy Yip who owned the car. Drivers include Alan Jones & Roberto Moreno. I believe the car is still in his car collection. With Vern it was a great car / driver combination. I wouldn't mind $ 100 for every hour I spent on that car during 72 to 74.

Ralph

Verns 722 was updated for 1973 with a wide nosed body kit developed by Dennis Falconer & raced in this form in England & the Far East.
Ralph

Was this the car in the Yellow Pages livery in 1972? :)

No it was Chris Cramers ex hill climb car. Don't know the chassis number. Nigel did 3 or 4 races & it was replaced by the Lola. The 722 was then sold to a guy in the Philippines. Verns 722 was updated for 1973 with a wide nosed body kit developed by Dennis Falconer & raced in this form in England & the Far East. This body was great on handling circuits but was slow on fast ones. Was on the front row of an F2 race at Oulton Park & at the next race at Hockenhiem we struggled for straight line speed. This body kit further developed in 74 to narrow nose & wings & did a few Atlantic races in this form. At the end of the year fitted a modified March 732 body & narrow track 732 suspension. We spaced the nose forward about 300mm & added a splitter but retained the side radiators. At the back we fitted a tweaked Lola T360 wing. The first race we did was at Macau. Out of the box it was great & Vern put it on pole & won the race. The car stayed at Macau & was raced in subsequent years by guests of Mr Teddy Yip who owned the car. Drivers include Alan Jones & Roberto Moreno. I believe the car is still in his car collection. With Vern it was a great car / driver combination. I wouldn't mind $ 100 for every hour I spent on that car during 72 to 74.

Ralph

Ralph, many thanks! The things you learn. The Cramer car was 723-12 ex Jarier F3. Jeremy Jackson noted the chassis number on Cramer's car in 1973.
One of the reasons I asked was that for this to be Vern's regular car would have meant some serious shuttling around the globe between races, and also changing the bodywork which looked very different.
However, I wonder if Clarkson always used the Cramer car.
I have a programme with notes by our own Adam Ferrington that has chassis 40 written in for the race at Oulton on 5 May 1974, and a report in Motoring News or Autosport describes it as Schuppan's old car at Mallory 23 June [though that could simply be an assumption]

You are right about 722-40, a real champion's car, driven at Macau by Jones, Moreno and Derek Daly, as well as by Vern.

Chris

Steve,
Yes it was in Yellow Pages livery. Later in the year it became white when we started using it in F2 with the different body. Was run in 72 with twin cam, 1600cc BDA & 2 ltr Amon BDA. That was a good engine.

Ralph

Steve,
Yes it was in Yellow Pages livery. Later in the year it became white when we started using it in F2 with the different body. Was run in 72 with twin cam, 1600cc BDA & 2 ltr Amon BDA. That was a good engine.

Ralph

Check out the March 722 thread.

Hello

Does anyone know an history of t360 hu-08

I have been offered the car it is in the uk and has been on store for about 15 years.It has provence that it is the original.
The one that was advertised as hu-08 in the States is a copy and not an original. I have been in touch with the advertiser who confirmed that they picked hu- 08 because it appeared to be missing from any history.

jim

Jim

I think that it would be good to hear the provenance, and indeed to see the documentation that supports it.
HU8 was sold in the US, going to Carl Haas as early as August 1974. It was one of only two early T360s with a red gel coat. [The only other red car is HU15 which has a traced history]
The gel coat suggests that it should either be the car of Bobby Rahal or Robert Young in period, though it could be resprayed.
However, there is extensive documentation for Rahal's car as HU9, which he now owns again, in the form of invoices from Haas and Lola. Also, Rahal did not decide on a Lola until after a visit to England after the American season had ended - that is well after the delivery of HU8 to America. Furthermore, Rahal's car was specially constructed by Lola because he specified certain non-stock options on the car. HU9 has a shipping date of late November 1974 which accords perfectly with Rahal's UK trip.

My hunch is that this was Young's car: he's still around in Colorado, I think, as his family is big in banking there. [If anyone is still big in banking these days...]

HU8 was offered for sale with chassis no and called 'ex Rahal' by Steve Torrance, Victory Lane, Jan 91, p. 54. Torrance, I believe, was from Texas.

It's easier to say things about provenance than it is to prove them, in the form of bills of sale, invoices and period observations, and I frankly don't believe the claim for HU8 to be Rahal's car unless there is some very hard evidence.

Chris

chris
privvy to the car in question here
1 what T360 cars raced in ireland?
2 where are they now

Drifty, I don't think any T360s were based in Ireland, so UK based cars would be the only ones in period. 2 T460s were though, or 1 + the T462, ex-TT and Alo respectively.

thats what im looking to hear as 1 car is "floatin" around!!!!

I struggle to find any T360 that might have ended up in Ireland with the exception of the remains of HU5 after Martin Mansell crashed it in 1979.

There are so many T360s in different ownership in USA and Canada in 1976 that, even accounting for sales between some owners in the year, the entire production, other than HU5, HU18 [Trimmer's early '76 car] and the destroyed HU7, and including the Ken Bailey car, must have been there.

Total T360 production is 20 cars, not including the jig model sold as AU1 in 1977 to Andrew Meidecke. By 1976 two are left in UK and a further one is destroyed, leaving 17

In 1976 USA there are the following running T360s

1 Phil Threshie [California] might be HU16 ex Gloy
2 John Weakley [California]
3 Larry Bergman [California] might be HU14 ex Karlberg
4 Mike Hall [HU2] sold at some point in 1976 to unknown, but resurfaces in US with Doug Moe in 1980
5 David Westgate [Canada] also used by Victor Larose
6 Gary Magwood [HU6]
7 Robert Young [probably HU8]
8 George Herscher [HU9]
9 Tom Price [Illinois] this is certainly ex Klausler, but might be HU2 his 1974 car rather than the 1975 one]
10 Jacques Desjardins [Canada] probably HU20 or might be T350-HU1 which was rebuilt as T360 in 1975
11 Bill Scott Racing [HU20]
12 Sandy Shepard [HU17]
13 Sans Thompson [HU15]
14 Freddy Phillips [HU12] probably sold mid season
15 James Cushing
16 Dan Marvin [late model]
17 John Kowalski [Ohio]
18 Joe Colantonio [HU11 or HU22 ex BSR]
19 Carl Haas is still advertising a latest spec T360 in April 1976 which can't account for any of the above

Since all the above, except Price, appear before Hall and Philips advertise their cars only one of them can be accounted for by a sale between them.
The profusion suggests both that all except the two UK cars were in USA/Canada, AND that HU19 which is not on Lola's build list was actually made, perhaps being the rebuild of T350-HU1 [which Joubert had taken to Canada in 1975 with a BDA in it, and HU21 was his other car].

In case anyone is wondering where all these cars are appearing the answer is in SCCA Nationals and the qualifying races for the two pro series [especially at the back of heats of the IMSA series]

At the end of 1977 HU18 is sold to USA and is known there, leaving one car in the UK

Chris

I am the owner of T360-HU08.

I researched this car thoroughly prior to purchase and was aware of the potential conflict in ownership history. However in the face of such strong documentation, file letters, logbooks and bills of sale etc, HU-08 can not be denied its historic provenance.

I proceeded with the purchase of HU-08 after verification of the well detailed documentation.

Chris, you are right, HU-08 did pass through the hands of Steve Torrance of Birmingham Tx, but prior to july 1, 1990.

I have in my files, an original letter, dated July 1, 1990 from one Robert Rahal of Steubeville, Ohio, addressed to one Steve Torrance as mentioned above. In this letter, Rahal greets Torrance warmly , as an old friend and then goes on to say

"with regard to the Lola (Serial # HU360-08) - I purchased the car from Carl Haas' organization in late 1974 and competed with it in the Formula Atlantic series through 1975. As I recall we sold the FA to a gentleman in Colorado in mid to late 1975.

I will ask Haas' to confirm my ownership and advise you."

A further letter (I have the original) dated July 7, 1990 from Carl Haas
Automobile Imports INC of Lincolnshire Illinois advises:

" Reference: Lola T-360 Formula Atlantic
Chassis No. HU360-08

The purpose of this letter is to authenticate that according to our Purchase Order Records, the references Lola T-360 was sold to Robert Rahal on November 17, 1974, under our Purchase Order No. 36005."

I have a copy of the "Purchase Order Record" as referred to above.

I also have the original Lola factory Data sheet dated August 31 1974

I have detailed ownership record that lists a succession of owners, including:

Robert Rahal MI
JM McFarlan CO
Ron Clausen CO
Jerry King CO
Kieth Young TX
Steve Torrance TX
Randy Johnson OH
Samuel Brown CT
Karl Kaimer NJ
Cecil Boyd NC

Me

The history for T360 HU-08 is the most detailed of any that I have seen for any vehicle of this vintage.

I hope this will generate further debate and hopefully we will get to a definitive list (or at least get it closer) of who drove/owned what.

I would be happy for well credentialled enthusiasts to view my documentation.

* as an aside, the other T-360 manufactured in red, was for Haas' stock.

Can I ask what brake calipers are on the car?

Chris