March 73B - 74B - 75B - 76B - 77B

Chris, isn't it strange, I own the Eddie Jordan March 74b that he sold to purchase the Chevron.

Did the 74B you have race in NZ at all?.

Armco Bender , no it never ran in N.Z.ex Ireland to Western Australia.in 1979.

The Marches weren't overly sucessfull here against the Chevrons and Ralts.It wasn't until Fabi came here with the 78B in 1979 they won some races.

Bryan

Does your ex Jordan 74B have a plate on it? I have the history of this car as 74/75: Stiller for Bev Bond and Alan Jones. 75/76 Des Donnelly. 77 Jordan. 78? 79: Colin Simpson [Scottish hillclimb championship]

Marches must be one of the most confusing cars,this is typical, a site advertising a 722 thats been rebuilt from a 76B,a 722 looks nothing like the 76 series http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/march/722-20/722-20ss.htm.Several March 74/75/76/77 bitsers were raced here in the Atlantic series.

Armco

You're not kidding about Marches, though it may well be that underneath that particular 76B bodywork is a 722 tub.
Underneath several 73Bs - as built by March AS NEW CARS - were 712M tubs. Ray Mallock's had 712M-5 [ex Beuttler F2] and Sonny Rajah 712M-7 [ex Peterson F2]. We can only praise March for their early committment to recycling and ecological issues, but it's a nightmare for the historian.

This is not helped by drivers changing the identity of their cars whenever they modified them a bit. Howard Wood is described as racing a 75B in the '77 Tasman. Motoring News in UK said this was ex Val Musetti, meaning that underneath it all was either the ex Stan Matthews 73B [itself possibly built on a recycled 712M] or a 742 tub of indeterminate provenance. Does anyone know about the NZ history of this car?

Howard Woods car was an older 74 type March with updated body work,I think he ran in the '78 or '79 series here with it,it wasnt competitive any way.

Re. my 74B , long story ,especially if you can only type 1 finger.
Ex Bev Bond /Jonesy to,ref.AutosportMarch 27 1975 p.57 to Frank Blanchard, who in another article described as having driven car , however I can,t find evidence , thence to Bill Gowdy , ref. Autosport July 17 1975 p.71 , till adv. for sale nov.27 75 , thence toGerry Kinnane ref. p45 Autosport March 25 1976 , with driver Des Donnelly for rest of 1976.
For 1977 Eddie Jordan ref.Autosport March 31 1977, for all of season till adv. for sale 10 /11/ 1977 p56.
The next I could find was in Australia , but we were advised that it had come from Scottish Hillclimbs , but they are not reported very well.
The purchaser was a Mr. Grahame Brown , a Scotsman who was moving to Western Australia , and bought with him 2 Marches the other car being Des Donnelly,s 73B which is ex Colin Vanderwell,s Championship winning Yellow pages car .
The Vandervell car retains it chassis plate 73B-8 , my car is stamped on front R.H.S. bulkhead 74B-12 , but the plate went awol I understand as the 2 cars came in as 1 and spares.
You have filled in a gap that I new existed in Scotland but could not confirm.
The tub no. on mine is 73-26.
Ihave another March problem re. 74B-12 which is also here via Ken Smith but again no Assistance despite promises perhaps this is the ex Val Musseti car.

Sorry I should have added , inside 1 of the bodypanels I found a I.M.R.C. scrutinnering sticker .
I.M.R.C. = Irish Motor Racing Club.

Bryan

You are wonderful mine of information! I think we need to pace that one finger, and also not spoil me with too much history at once. I will try and find some more about Colin Simpson and his ownership of the car. I've got his purchase of the car from either Autosport or Motoring News, I'll have to check my notes.

I have found another 74B that went down under, to NZ, which might help with your mystery car. This is the ex-Ted Wentz Wella car which was raced by Alan Crocker in 76/77. Crocker was a Kiwi who raced the car briefly in the 76 Indyatlantic series and then used it in the 1977 Tasman. He appeared with it at Bay Park and the Motoring News report checks it as ex-Wentz.

I don't know the number of this car because I don't know who [if anyone] has the sales records for March Atlantics. But I can have a good stab because it's the Wella car. Wentz had won the Wella FF1600 championship in '73 and turned up to the prizegiving, expecting to collect a small cheque, to find a fully kitted out Atlantic, because Wella had decided without telling him, to back him the following year. [Why could I never find a sponsor like that? Okay, I never placed better than 6th or 7th, maybe that was why.]
Since this was in December '73 and since Motoring News calls the car 'the first customer 74B' as opposed to a prototype which would perhaps have a U or R prefix from March, I've always thought of this as 73B-1.

The Musetti cars are a nightmare, since they were always described as being at least a model newer than they actually were. I know he ran 752-15 with a GAA V6 in the back in '76/77 [ex Walkinshaw and ex Kuwashima in F2] and that in 75 he had the Matthews 73B. By 76 he has two cars one described as a 75B and the other as a 742. I think the Matthews car is under the 75B and that a 732 tub features in the 742, but who really knows. Maybe I'll have to track him down. [Interesting guy, was a stunt driver for films who did the classic Mini sequence in the Italian Job.]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
I know he ran 752-15 with a GAA V6 in the back in '76/77 [ex Walkinshaw and ex Kuwashima in F2] and that in 75 he had the Matthews 73B. By 76 he has two cars one described as a 75B and the other as a 742. I think the Matthews car is under the 75B and that a 732 tub features in the 742, but who really knows.

Chris, do you mean Stan Matthews?
He raced an Ensign and then a 73B in Atlantic under the Promoto racing banner.Both green and yellow in classic 'lotus' style.
My father was Stan's mechanic when he raced special saloons in 68/69 before he went to the JRRDS at Snetterton.
Now running a bar in Spain I believe. I have not seen him since '78 at Silverstone. He was pretty well off for an 18 year old when he first turned up at our house to look at the racing saloon Anglia my father spannered on and arrived in a Ferrari he had bought the day before from Peter Sellers.That turned a few heads on our council estate! His folks ran the Wicken Country Hotel near Silverstone. I remember going there as a kid when the GP was on and many of the F1 drivers stayed there.
Amon, McLaren, Gurney, Hill, Bonnier etc were all in the hotel bar so it was 'autograph book' heaven! Stan became quite good when he got to F3/Atlantic but I think the money ran out.

Andrew

I do indeed mean that Stan Matthews. He'd quit before I started watching in '76/77. Musetti bought the 73B for the 1975 Atlantic season and rechristened it as a 74B. The following year it was called a 75B but still fundamentally the same car I think. I'm guessing it was this car that became Howard Wood's "75B" in the 77 Tasman.

gGenleman, I will try to sort out 1 at a time.
Andrew and Chris will know who I mean when I say Duncan R. of the F1 Register.Duncan could not assist re. my 74B any more than what I already had which is 1 page only of 74B sales , mine originated from Alan Harris at Gordon Spice Eng. circa 1987 .
I don,t know where it originated but it will appear to all that it is correct when I type it in , I don,t think in this forum it will fall in to Bad use.Here goes
74B-1 Planer White 2 Nov. 1973.
74B-2 Grimaldi Red 29 Nov. 1973
74B-3 Grimaldi Yellow 27 Nov. 1973
74B-4 Grimaldi Midnight Blue 12 Dec. 1973
74B-5 M.Coarasa Midnight Blue 4 Dec 1973
74B-6 Grimaldi White 17 Dec. 1973
74B-7 C.Cramer White 10 Jan. 1974 with note lightweight hillclimb special
74B-8 Canada Green 28 Jan. 1974
74B-9 Brown Blue 23 Feb.1974
74B-10 Grimaldi White no date
74B-11 Grimaldi White ''
74B-12 Grimaldi Midnight Blue no date
74B-13 Grimaldi Yellow 31 May note semi kit.

I know who and where Grimaldi was in 1975 via some other March documents, when cars that went to U.S.A. were dispatched via Rapid Movements to Shierson / Grimaldi.
It looks like he was some sort of broker pre. ordering cars and on selling.
The guys at Marchives in the U.S. also know of him,but not for a long time, Ihave been advised he was the engine builder.
Where does this leave us????
# 1 should be the Wella car as it is white and on display at the Racing car show early Jan.1974.
I bet Planer was the man at Wella who placed the order at March.
# 7 is the superbly liveried Grunhale Lager car of Chris Cramer
# 8 could be for export to Canada.
#12 should be mine.

Autosport March 7 1974 has a preview of the 1st. round of the John Player Atlantic Championships with 5 74B entries listed for Bev Bond ,Snappy Tom [ Tom Walkinshaw ] , Bobby Brown , Ted Wenz , and Matt Spitzley.
I later read Spitzley,s car was an updated 713M
For sure the 74B-1 is Wenz and unless anybody dissagrees it went to N.Z. thence to Australia about 10 years ago and I know exactly where the car is and who owns it .

Over to you guys to see if you can add anything.

I've just spent the entire day going through the 1974 UK Atlantic season. Only three genuine 74Bs appear in the series:
the Wella car for Wentz [1] [and I can check Mr Planer by going back to the story in Motoring News about Wentz being given the car.]
the Stiller car for Bev Bond [12] which was blue, so that tallies
the Brown car, for Bobby Brown and Dave Morgan early season before Brown takes it to USA.
Walkinshaw never appears in a March, when he does race it's in a Modus M3, which he writes off at the British GP support race. So, either the entry for the first round, for which Andrew has sent me a copy of the programme, is a fantasy on Tom's part or he cancelled the order.
I'd suggest that the Brown car is number 8, as his cars were Blue
Spitzley's car was a converted 713M even though often described as a 74B

I'd say the remaining cars all went to the US/Canada, where I have the following owners so far.
David Loring
Cliff Jensen
Team Canada: Gilles Villeneuve
and a second car for George Follmer at Trois Rivieres in Sept which is either new then or a spare through the season. These cars were White with Schweppes logos, maybe 10 and 11?
Reg Scullion
Depaillier has a new car for Trois Rivieres which I suspect isn't on this list.
Spitzley's car was yellow, and I wonder if the semi-kit is an update for him.

Any ideas on the base colours of the Loring/Jensen/Scullion cars?
Also, Allen, if you're following this, are there more 74B users in your N.American magazines that I haven't got here?

There is perhaps one other 74B in the UK
This is the car that appears first for John Gillmeister and then is sold to Wes Dawn in August.September '74. I don't know much about this car which didn't appear often.
I think that Roger Hurst, who frequents this forum, used to run Gillmeister's cars. Can you offer any help on this Roger?

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
..., Allen, if you're following this, are there more 74B users in your N.American magazines that I haven't got here? Chris

Of course I'm following this - it's fascinating. I'm a bit thin on US sources for 1974 as my Formula Collection starts with Feb 1975. However, in that copy (p14) I found:

"Joe Grimaldi imported several March 74Bs with Bobby Brown, Bruce Jensen, Gilles Villeneuve and Gary Maywood being the best known customers."

On p18 I also spotted Bruce Jensen and Reg Scullion in an Atlantic race at Watkins Glen in 742s, Fred Philips in James King's 73B and Roos in Grimaldi's 732. I think this race supported the US GP. And on p8: "Tom Sauerbrei ... will be in the ex Depailler March 742" in Atlantic in 1975. That might help plug a gap later.

In the Mar 75 edition they are on to talking about 1975 but do mention that Dave Morris (Edmonton) wrecked a 74B at Mosport in '74. Jensen and David Loring are pictured racing 74Bs at Sanair.

Is this all useful??

I presume you means that Brown's car was number 9, seeing as it actually mentions him by name!!
74B-9 Brown Blue 23 Feb.1974

Grimaldi ran "The Race Shop" in Adrian, Michigan.

Allen

Chris

Fred Opert advertises the Brown 74B (8 races from new) in June 1975. The full Edmonton grid is shown - there are 11 75Bs, two 73B and a 722.

Tell me to stop any time you like!

Allen

Full Westwood grid in August 1975 p26. Now 12 75Bs, one 73B and a 722. Where did all the 74Bs go? All uprated to 75B?

Hang on - here's one. Tom Outcault, 5th at the Road America June Sprints (p29)

Gimli grid on p26 of the September edition. Eight 75Bs, King's 73B and Schuppan's 722/73B.

Aha - I se from the March book only 12 75Bs built. All on one grid at Westwood? I think not. I'm glad I just do the F5000s - they much simpler than this!

Allen

I meant number 9 of course for the Bobby Brown car, my mistake!

I'd got Sauerbrei racing a 742 in SCCA. But not ANOTHER ex Depaillier.
That makes 4 and a quick scan of written off tubs in Depaillier's 74 season gives me two, plus an intact one at the end of the season, plus the spare that his contract insisted on [so that at Karlskoga March had to hire Obermoser's car back because they'd run out!] gives me
4 !!!
Isn't history marvellous. Of course F1R shows him as using the same car all season.
Although Sauerbrei's car could equally have been the 74B that ran at Trois Rivieres...

Does the Sanair picture of Jensen and Loring give us a clue to colour?

Mail me the Edmonton grid for starters! Just wish British mags had been as thorough.

Chris

And Quebec (Oct 75 p36) had 11 75Bs, a 74B (Peter Broeker), King, Schuppan and two more 73Bs.

Allen
12 75Bs all on one grid is possible.
There weren't any other markets at that time.
ZA started the following year.
In Britain the 75Bs are all a bit dodgy
Mallock's is based on the ex Coulon 742 then gets a B tub number U1
Derek Cook has what is either a prototype car or a hor series 74B at the very end of 1974 [races Boxing Day Brands] described as a 75B.
[Autosport track tests a 75B prototype in autumn '74]
Musetti's 75B is either a 73B or 742.

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Does the Sanair picture of Jensen and Loring give us a clue to colour? It's black and white of course but the #41 Jensen car is predominately mid-grey witha white nose and the Loring car might be a miss-caption as it's #13 and white with Schweppes livery. Wasn't that Villeneuve's car?

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Mail me the Edmonton grid for starters! Just wish British mags had been as thorough. Will do!

Allen

Allen

Villeneuve broke his leg in accident at Mosport. Loring took over the car while he recovered.

Chris

Here’s a run-down of the other early-model FAt Marches in NZ:
•74B/1. Yes, the Wella/Wentz car. Raced by NZer Alan Crocker in British FAt races 1975 and 1976, and in NZ 1977. Sold it to Ken Smith who ran it for Ken Sager 1978, Robbie Booth 1979. Later owned and driven by Robbie Hislop 1982, Tony Batchelor 1983, Keith Laney 1984 but back in Smith’s hands by late 1988
•75B (number 742/1). Raced in F2 1974. Converted to 75B spec and presumably raced in British FAt 1975 and/or 1976. Brought to NZ by Howard Wood and raced by him 1977, Reg Cook 1978. Cook retained unraced until selling to collector John Gobbe 1982. Subsequent history unknown
•733/76B (number and early history unknown). Converted to FAt specs by expatriate NZer Dave Saunders and taken home for the first FP series in 1977. Crashed heavily and car written off
•76B/14. Raced by the Doug Shierson team in USA 1976. Raced in 1977 NZ series by Jamaican Richard Melville, who then settled NZ and raced again 1978. Sold to Unipart Malaysia and raced southeast Asia 1979 by Tiff Needell, Sonny Rajah etc. Possibly acquired by Rajah
•76B/20. Raced by the Doug Shierson team in USA 1976. Ken Smith NZ 1977-79. Sold 1981 to Warren Binning who never raced it, back to Smith 1983 and on to a new owner 1984. Smith was advertising for sale again 1999
•76B (number unknown). New to Graeme Lawrence, mainly SE Asia 1976-79. Sold to Romeo David who raced SE Asia 1980
•763/77B (763/14). Uprated F3 car. Andrew Miedecke Macau 1977, NZ and SE Asia 1978
•763/77B (763/38). Uprated F3 car. Ian Grob under Alan Docking Racing banner in NZ 1978. This (and a spare tub) later to Garry Clare, Australia
•77B/30. Probably not raced 1977: entered by works for Danny Sullivan in 1978 NZ series. Acquired by Colin Giltrap and raced for him by Larry Perkins 1979, Desiré Wilson 1980, John Smith 1981. Then sold to Ray Hanger in Australia
•77B (number not known). Brett Riley in NZ 1978-80, Tom Donovan 1981-83. Crashed in 1983 and supposedly written off
NOTE: The ex-Riley 77B was apparently competing in Australian hillcimbs with Peter Finlay 1998
•77B (number not known). Early history not known. Raced by Dave Saunders in NZ 1980-81, Ross Cameron 1982-84

The Melville 76B is described by Motoring News as the car raced by Brambilla the previous year at Trois Rivieres.

Originally posted by Chris Townsend

The Melville 76B is described by Motoring News as the car raced by Brambilla the previous year at Trois Rivieres.
Could be

Hey this is neat the whole history of NZ Atlantics.Didn't Fred Opert bring 2 cars(presmably Chevrons) to NZ for the 1979 series but were never raced,what ever happened to them?.The only other Chevron I can think of that came here is the one Huub Rothengatter drove.
The Alan Crocker March,didn't he race that in 1978?,I remember he did a spectactular roll just past the start line in the first heat of the NZGP and skated upside down along the track in it.
The vague histories of some of the NZ cars could be down to the tax laws at the time,many cars were shuttled in and out of the country to avoid the taxman,presumably some of the IDs were a bit "fudged" to confuse the revenue gatherers.Not something people would want to make to public!.
"MotorAction" the motorsport newspaper of the day had very detailed histories of all the Atlantic cars in the '77 and '78 series at the time,sadly my copies have long since disappeared.

Hell this is going so fast so quickly,
March , Ian Grob in N.Z. Both cars tubs built up 1 for 1978 series , other not till 1980 in Australia .
Both cars have ch. pl. stamped as 77B C1 and C2 , being for Gary Clare who apparently drove the March spares van inU.K./Europe and did the deal with Ian Grob , so technically they are not true Marches .

A story connected with the C2 car was that it was ex James King tub , but I checked this with Duncan , and was advised that the King tub was 773-41 Lightweight, whereas the C2 tub is 773-66 ex no history.

For the record I am the Senior Historic Eligibility Officer for C.A.M.S in Oz , handling the post 1960 Racing and Sports Racing cars and have been for some years.

My brother will contact soon re. his March which is 772-5
, but in N.Z. was always known as 77B , talk about a can of worms .

In the preview for 1974 Atlantic Rd. 1 John Giimeister is is listed with a 73B , ent by Prototype Tooling .
Some of the cars we are talking about may be 'B ' versions but called 742 s because of the furore caused when the factory bought out the long nose side rad. version and told everybody espcially Bob Harper that it was experimental.
My 74B-12 had the update kit fitted by May 1974 , and was on the car when Jones won the British Grand Prix. Atlantic support race , so to gullible motor sport noters , they may have been told all sorts of stories .

It certainly happened over here especially with earlier Brabhams that rec,d B.T.36 style body panels.

Chris, the 74 March notes, you have all the info on the sheet, nothing held back .
Bobby Brown's 74B-9, I saw a note sometime in 74 Auosport saying this would be last race in U.K. as both driver and car returning to U.S.A.

To Allen Brown, have been looking at your fabulous site for a while now, congratulations and all the Australian end of the cars looks pretty correct.
Re. 74B-5 Coarara, anybody heard of him? Could this have escaped to Swiss hillclimbs or somewhere else?

ARMCOBENDER, I think you need to find another set of Motoraction, afterall you Kiwi's ended up with half these cars all getting mixed up over there, one of you has to help sort it out, and by virtue of being on the forum, you are elected .

Re. 73B, the std.74B's looked the same as 73 cars unless you had fitted the update kit so who would know if it was a 73 or a 74 by looking???
Re. my 74B tub no. typo, should read 732-26, with either an 8 or a B stamped under that.

I think that the Gillmeister car was probably a 73B though Wes Dawn called it a 74.
Would anyone have similar information on 73B sales to the invaluable document posted here on 74Bs? This would be massively useful in sorting out British and Irish Atlantics as a lot more 73Bs were sold here as new than 74s.

AB
I think you're getting Crocker mixed up with Dave Saunders, who was involved in that big Puke accident (with Rex Hart's Surtees and, IIRC, A N Other

I've still got the Motoractions
All the chassis number/history stuff in them was written by.....
David McKinney

March ex Andy Miedecke 763/77b 763/14 . I spoke to Andy re. this along with Bruce Cary who helped bult it up. This car still owned by Andy and is literally nailed to the wall at his Main Ford dealership at Port Macquarrie on the mid north coast of N.S.W. as I write, this info about 4 weeks old.

March 75B in Davids list of cars in N.Z. as 742-1, to Howard Wood, Reg Cook, John Grobbe 1982.

I bet Topin was the man who made Rajah's 712M into a 73B - and it did go to the Far East and [as Bryan has revealed] also made its way into the Antipodes.

In A/S. Sept. 5 1975 p.59 for sale column have you been able to put a no. or identity to Alan Rollinsons car.?
Is it a genuine 74B or a lash up .??????

Bryan

As those Chevron's seem to have developed into a general Atlantic/F2 thread I'm answering you on those 75Bs over here. The two cars to the USA, what numbers and to whom? I think that 75B-10 was Bertil Roos' car, and I think that all the real 75Bs went to N.America.

I've started a new thread for N.Zealand, begining at the begining with Bay Park, 77. Ultimately I want to do for Atlantics what's being done for F5000 on oldracingcars. To begin with that means being patchy because we're talking about a decade and a half of racing in six differnt countries at various times. But it does seem that we are quite close with NZ, and also with the 1974 British JP series.

Chris

Chris,
March 75B-8
Yellow Tub. no. 16 gearbox no. FT.200-1013
Grimaldi/Shierson
collected by Rapid Movements 17th. April 1975


However there is a hell of a lot more. This is the Dave Saunders car in N.Z. I will explain .
The current owner Howard Blight purchased car in Oz and on my insistence in official capacity he ran Dave Saunders.
History as told by Saunders,
Purchased by Saunders from March in 1976,date unspecified,to run in N.Z. Series.
I have in front of me a copy of N.Z. registration of motor vehicle [ even race cars in nz had this then], dated 10-11-77 at Henderson reg. plate no. I.G.4593.
Make March 1975.
Eng. No. DA276D.
Chassis No. 75B-8.
etc.etc.
Over page is transfer to Willowbank Motor Court[1975] ltd. L.M.V.D. at 554 Great King Street ,Dunedin.
Above ent. dated 5th. May 1981.
This I believe is Ross Cameron. N.Z. GUYS CAN YOU CONFIRM.????///
1984-1989 Ken Smith to Allan Champion to Ken Smith again .
Why not , he owned my Modus twice as well .
To Gerry Duyvestyn of Australia in Sept. 1989.
To Howaed Blight 29/8/1993.
I picked car up from Duyvestan,s home with Howard.
MORE MORE .
I soggested to Howard he get in touch with Shierson which he did .
Shierson advised his records had gone astray, however did advise that he always had his own cars from March with ch.no. 8 or 9 for his own use as opposed to customers cars.
This leads us to think it may be Villenuves 75 Atlantic car in Canada , but Howard will not claim till he knows definately.

2nd. car
March 77B-5
Nicholson Ford NME 080
Orange French Blue
Monocoque no. 773-16
gearbox no. Ft.200-1129
Doug Shierson
Dispatched 6th. December 1976.

I left something very important out , Saunders advised that at the 2nd. round at Pukekohe the car was very badly damaged and a new tub was purchased from John Thompson in the U.K.
new tub no.M772PU6.
Car then painted white.
Bryan. David and Armco does this still give us 2 entities for Saunders or the same car diff. colour etc.

Yep I saw the Saunders car just after he crashed it,practising for the GP,he ran off the sweeper coming up to the start of the front straight,he hit a big fence post front on and the tub was split open like a peeled banana.That tub would have never been used again.I'm sure Saunders broke his leg/s badly.If my memory serves me right the car was white and it had sponsorship from someone like DTR television rentals,and it was No9.
The registration of the cars was mainly for tax purposes I think,not to do with them being driven on the road.They had an "E" Exempt Vehicle label on them,for off road use.

Armco , any ideas on whether he had an earlier car as per David McKinney's list or do you think it was the same car rebuilt as per my suggestion.????????
Bryan.

Bryan

Saunder's car: Described as a 75B at Bay Park 77. Car described as destroyed by Motoring News report of Pukekhoe 77. So that all tallies.
But at Bay Park I think that MN hinted that the car was a bitza, but they could have been wrong, and I'll double check. So let's call the Saunders car at Bay Park and Pukekhoe 75B-8 [oops wrong thread here] and hope that more comes up on the Shierson connection.

Allen, according to your USA journals who did Shierson run in 75 and any hints on car colour?
The only 75B that begins the season with a Nicholson motor is the car of Don Briedenbach. A picture would be good! [Is his car 75B-5?]

Chris

Chris, I think you will find Gilles Villenueve and at least on 1 occasion Price Cobb were Shierson drivers.
Bryan

Chris , the second car is 77B, not a 75B.
Bryan

Bryan

Thanks for the correction.77 Shierson ran Howdy Holmes and Bill Brack in N.America, and had two spare cars. However, he also runs a car in the S.African series for Rupert Keegan. This car is then used in ZA by John Gibb.
Given that three 77Bs appear in this series [Ian Scheckter; Roy Klomfass and Keegan] it might be that an early build date such as this was the Keegan car. I'll try and find a pic of the Keegan car. Is this car in Australia now? Do you know about any s.African connection

Chris

Chris, no only lucked on that 77B info , because before Kevin and I picked car up from Peter Finlay in Sydney , I asked Peter what the ch.no. was over the ph. Peter told me 77B-5 so I faxed D.R. and rec'd that reply.
When we arrived to pick car up a few days later , the first thing I went to look at was the pl. no. and saw 772-5 and asked Peter , who not realising the diff. said , it's always been known as a B in N.Z.

You should have seen Kevin's face drop.
I said pay the money , grab it and run , we will sort it out later.
Guess what, 4 years later we are still trying.???????

any ideas on whether he had an earlier car as per David McKinney's list or do you think it was the same car rebuilt as per my suggestion.????????

:confused: This is getting confusing,The car Saunders raced at Baypark would have certainally been the one he drove at Pukekohe the following weekend.I'd have to beleive Dave McKinney that it was a 74B because Dave would have gone around and seen the numbers I pressume.The car at Pukekohe(I unfortunately didnt get to BayPark that year) was definitely a 74 or 75 chassis,it certianally wasn't a 'new' model March(the 'newest' Marches in '77 were the 2 '76Bs) it was an updated older one.One would assume the car he raced in the '78 series was this car rebuilt with a new tub.It must have taken some time to rebuild,and I'm sure Saunders broke his leg/s in the crash so it wasn't raced again probably until the '78 series again.At the '78 Pukekohe race he only went about 50m before flipping the car upside down.It wasn't badly damaged in that crash,but I'm sure it was about then Saunders flagged away a racing career!.I'm pretty sure in '78 the car was white and unsponsored.Sorry to use pretty sure and think a lot,as all this was around 25 years ago it gets a little fuzzy thinking back that far.
I know my Father has super 8 movie film of the '77 and '78 series,and I'm pretty sure there is a view of the Saunders car after its '77 crash on a trailer in the paddock and it also has the tail end of the '78 roll over on it,I will try to get my hands on it and see if we can get some frames off it.

Hi

Don't know whether this helps but March 73B-17 was the March RX10B Can-Am car of Seann Burgess in 1965 and 1986. He bought it from a Joe Ostrowski of New Jersey in 1982. Joe had purchased it from the DRC Team who ran it in 1973/1974 for Bruce Macinnes and Ron Cohn. Seann has restored it as the #66 McInnes car but I'm not sure if that part of the identification is certain.

Allen

Chris ,
last night [sat.] I was trolling through my meagre 9 copies of A.S ,[other years Ihave virtually all] .
Just trying to assist on 73b ,you probably are aware of piece in A.S. ju.28 p31 which says Ken Bailey has the ex. Cyd Williams car from 1972 . Did this car become a 73B lookalike and was it new for Bailey or a rebirth on a 712 ?
Bryan.

Chris , I hope this helps , the car I mentioned above shoud be the car for sale Jan 10 74 with ugly Falconer bodywork , and still for sale May2 74, by Ken Bailey.
Meanwhile PAGE 56 A/S.April 25 74 , by Ken Baily is a 73B with std. bodywork and 8 races from new , built late 73.
Have we got 2 x Ken Baily / Bailey. ?????????????
Bryan.

Brian

No, there was only one Ken Bailey, and the history works out. The Cyd Williams 722 is 722-39 and this number is noted by Motoring News on its debut in Atlantic, along with 722-37 which is raced by Chris Oates. 722-37 goes to Baron Robertson in 73 and then John Leffler. 39 is sold to Bailey who used in F.Atlantic in UK in 73. The car was then sold to a guy called Phil Dowell who was killed testing it at Silverstone pre-season in '74. I've always presumed that the car was destroyed in this accident.

So, Bailey's 73B is a genuine model, ex Charles Lucas '73 season. I got a bit thrown by the advert for a March 722 in 1974, because it's got Bailey's name on it. However, the phone number, when you look at other ads, proves to be that of Mike Sullivan Racing. Sullivan had been racing 712M-11 [ex Jaussaud, ex colin Andrews. for Richard Robinson and Alan Jones, though he took to calling it a "722"]. I presume that this is Sullivan trying to sell that car with a photograph of someone elses! [though it might be that Sullivan had also bought the wreck from Dowell's widow to use for parts.]

Sullivan was selling because he was meant to be getting a "74B" built out of one of JAcques Coulon's 732 tubs. However, according to race reports it was the 722 which finished the 74 season, so presumably the cheque bounced on the "74B".

Bailey sold his 73B to Andy Rouse halfway through the 74 season and took over the works development Lola T360. That's why you have two adverts using pictures of Bailey cars at the same time!

Chris

If you want a real bitsa March get a load of this.
This is Jim Crawford's March 73B, run by SDC Racing in 1974

Built from spares at the SDC base by Crawford over the winter of 73-74. Crawford wrote the car off in September 74. However, March facilitated a rebuild. Crawford went to the last round of the John Player series with this car rebuilt with spares - including a new tub - for a total cost of £49!
Now what chassis number would that carry?

Chris

Chris, since were trading horror March stories , I have in front of me an invoice from March 15th. April 1977 to Gary Clare , inv. no. 079392 , staff sale , 1 x scrap tub , 30.00 UK. pds. plus V.A.T. of 2.40 , this is 77B-c2.
Beat that. Bryan.

...so where do I look for "a tub no." on a 74 1/2B? It has cast front bulkheads and rere rads but otherwise looks like a 74B.

Smellybeard, under the roll over bar on the lhs should be a no.
741/2B is this what is on a chassis plate ???
Where did your car come from and when.??????????

Bryan.

Chris , if you see the above , I have just found a Players Quebec report and grid , apart from anything else there are 11 75Bs on the grid.

Bryan.

Bryan

Yup, 12 March 75Bs built, plus one prototype, plus at least one tub and new plate grafted onto an older car, and possible one 'special'.

The 12 'proper' cars all went to North America
3 go to Shierson for Syd Demovsky/Richard Melville/Jim Batchelor/Tom Pumpelly/Vince Muzzin and Brambilla at Trois Rivieres [this may have been a new car out of series]
1 goes to Interscope for John Woodner
1 goes to Tim Cooper
1 goes to Don Briedenbach
1 goes to who ever runs Price Cobb
2 go to who ever runs Chip Mead, and the spare is sometimes raced by Cliff Hansen
1 goes to Craig Hill [and if anyone from the Canadian Group is reading this perhaps they could help us with Craig's cars]
1 [chassis 10] goes to Bertil Roos, and he races it in UK before shipping it back to Canada
1 goes to Ecurie Canada for Villeneuve

The above is based on analysing the appearances at all the Canadian races, which, given Shierson's engine contract, allows you to identify who he entered at a particular race even when you're not told who enters a particular driver.
The only car that seems to disappear in the course of the series is Demovsky's, so I'm guessing he threw it at a wall somewhere.

Eric Kerman and Tom Crowther appear at the SCCA finals at the end of the year with 75Bs which I guess are secondhand.

The prototype:
Autosport track tests a 75B at the end of 74 - together with a 753 and 752 - so one exists. Derek Cook then appears with a 75B at Boxing Day Brands Hatch race, 1974. This should [if March followed a logical numbering on prototypes] be 75B-U1

However, 75B-U1 is allegedly the number given to Mallock's rebuild of the ex Coulon 742. Autosport records this as the chassis number when this car appears at the F2 race at Thruxton in 75. Possibly there were two U1s, or else Cook had returned his prototype [he bought a B29 at some point in 1975] and March turned it round to Mallock!

Cook's cars are a bit of a nightmare. His B29 went to Jeremy Rossiter in short order and he bought an old B27, which was, or was not, depending on who you believe, the same B27 he'd raced in 1974!
He's the father of Paula Cook [I think] who raced F3 a few years back.

Chris

One error in that screed: For Demovsky car as written off read Briedenbach

Chris

I'm in touch with Don. What do you need me to ask him?

Allen

You mean Briedenbach?
All sorts really. What was his 75B, stuffed or sold? Who to?
Usual things concerning single seaters. What other Atlantic did he run?

Chris,

Following is grid of Marches only , next time I post something to Allen I will send the whole report.
July 6 1975.

Gilles Villeneuve , Skiroule March 75B
Bertil Roos , Schweppes/Castrol 75B
James King , March 75B Traylor.
Vince Muzzin 75B Cosworth.
Craig Hill, Gabriel March 75B- Hart.
Jon Woodner , Interscope March 75B-Swindon.
Vern Schuppan , Rapid Movements 722/73B
Frank Delvecchio, Analube March 73B-Hart.
Chip Mead, Lambrusco March 75B-Hart.
Tom Outcault March 75B-Hart.
Tom Pumpelly, March 75B-Hart.
Peter Broeker, Stebro March 74B-Breatorex.
Charlie Gibson, March 73B -Hart.
Tim Cooper, Rutledge Oil March 75B.
Price Cobb, March 75B - Race Shop.
Cliff Hansen, March 75B Race Shop.

40 car grid.
Regards Bryan.

Whooooooooops,
Can't type , make James King car 73B.
Sorry Bryan , had you worried but ?????????

Bryan

Haven't seen that report, but it does confirm other sources about Cook's 75B. He then sells the B27 and the 75B and buys a B29 [29-75-29].

I'm planning to write to Cook when I've got a bit more time [in July] and see if he can help.

Bryan

A bit more work on the '75 Canadian series yields the following more accurate allocation of March 75Bs

Ecurie Canada: 3 [Villeneuve[Skiroule]/Roos [Schweppes]/Hill [Gabriel]
Shierson: 4 John Woodner/Syd Demovsky/Richard Melville/Jim Batchelor/Cliff Hansen/Marty Loft [uses Woodner's car]/Tom Pumpelly/Vince Muzzin and Brambilla at Trois Rivieres [uses Woodner's car]
1 goes to Tim Cooper
1 goes to Don Briedenbach
1 goes to who ever runs Price Cobb
1 goes to who ever runs Chip Mead
Which is 11 of the 12 built, and the 12th car is new for Ecurie Canada for Depaillier at Trois Rivieres. Though he doesn't use it. The engine goes in the warm up on race morning and they hire Tim Cooper's car which is a DNQ

Chris

Chris

I just emailed Don about the 75B.

Allen

Chris.

Out of all that we have ,

March 75B-10 for Bertil Roos .
March 75B-8 to Shierson for?????

I see what you mean re. Derek Cook's 75B as he still has it in August 75.

Re. 75B-8 now owned as advised previously by Howard Blight in Aust. via Dave Saunders in N.Z .
I have just remembered when Gary Simkin and I rebuilt it , the front 12/18 inches of the tub were not original and a major repair had been beatifully carried out using another front bulkhead , obviously after 1 of his good shunts in N.Z. as he had another later in I think 1978.

What I am trying to say is we found ref. on the inside of one of the skins to Melville.
But Melville ran in N.Z. as well , so maybe it doesn't help.

Bryan.

Bryan

We also have 75B-12 to Ecurie Canada for Depaillier at Trois Rivieres and then what? [This is simply because it is the 12th built, and we know about the other 11 delivered some time earlier.]

Chris

Don didn't quite answer the question so I guess he doesn't remember. He did say "Yes, I have seen the car recently. It belongs to Tony Seiniger. Tim Fortner did the rebuild on the chassis. I saw the original log book that went with the car."

Hope this is helpful.

Allen

Allen

Okay, all we need to do now is track down Tony Seiniger...

I guess the length of this thread proves that there was a lot we didn't know [and still don't!]

Chris

Herewith a note from Chequered Flag May 1979 on the 1600cc cars running in the 1979 Australian Rothmans series.

Wolfgang Prejewa - March 763/76B
"leased from Andrew Miedecke, has no chassis plate or know number"

Allen

The Prejewa car would be 77B-C1 or C2 built for Ian Grob to use in the '78 series.

The John Smith car is interesting because firstly Vercoe gives this as 91, and secondly 99 is, if F1R is to be believed, the ex Cassani F2 car. This was raced by Larry Perkins in Europe so perhaps he got to take it home with him.

Chris

Chris

Vercoe right, me wrong! That should read 91 - that's how it appears in Chequered Flag, that's how I entered it in my database but somehow I hit '99' in my post.

Apologies for my carelessness.

Allen

77B-C2 HAD NOT EVEN BEEN BUILT UP BEFORE 1980.
Ray Hanger had 77B-C1 by 1980 , but could have had it earlier, will check.

Chris Townsend.


The John Smith car is interesting because firstly Vercoe gives this as 91, and secondly 99 is, if F1R is to be believed, the ex Cassani F2 car. This was raced by Larry Perkins in Europe so perhaps he got to take it home with him.
________________

I don,t know the chassis number ,however Larry an myself
built it from new in 1978 an it went to N.Z. for it,s to
have it,s 1st race.It was orange / red in colour.A good
car, the current chassis is the 4th one built under that
number. DOUG

Chris,

March 74B-1 , the Wella Wenz car , with the ref. I advised from the sales list to , Planner.
A/Sport Jan. 2 1975 , p51 .
For sale above car with photo, contact is,

Planners International Ltd.
47 Curzon st. London ,W1Y 7RE.
These people may have been some sort of marketing agency handling the Wella account, and as such were the people directly dealing with March etc.
I wonder if the sale of the Lola used by Wenz in 1975 is recorded by Lola to custmer Planner as well.
Anyway this clears up another little mystery.
Bryan.

Regarding Don Briedenbach"s March 75b, I own it not Seiniger. Don's car is 75B/4; Seiniger's is 752-38 or 36. I know this because Tim Fortner and I restored both cars and sold Seiniger his. His car is a bitsa put together in 1976 by Richard Paul's mechanic to run in FB in 1976 and has a F3 tub. Briendenbach has seen 75B/4 and recognised it as his car and I have the log book to prove it. I also own 722-6 which supposedly is Bob Lazier's car by hearsay.

Welcome Ken

Can you tell us who drove Don's car in 1976 and later seasons? Also, do you know who drove the bitsa in Formula Atlantic?

Allen

Re. my ex. Eddie Jordan 74B-12 , after Eddie sold car at end of 1977 the car went to Colin Simpson , and I now have 3 adverts for him selling car at end 1978 and into 21-6-1979, fitted at some stage after he purchased with a 1800cc BDE on injection.
Did he only use the car on the hills or was he involved in some of the circuit events you are all discussing here, before the car was sold to come over to Western Australia.?

Colin Simpson was from at the time of selling the car ,in Dundee Scotland.

Thanks Bryan.

Allen, The Briedenbach car next went to a so. cal. local by the name of Jeff Alkana. He won the regional championship in 77 with it. Next was Alan Holly, then Steve Brimmer, a studio exec. I know Brimmer had the car sitting for a number of years.

I found one more name for 75B/4. Walter Hagstrom had the car in 1988. Ken

Chris

We never "announced" the 1975 Canadian results on OldRacingCars.com. Did we have some last checks to do? I notice Depailler's second car should be a "T" rather than a "DNS" and I think we discussed that my "DNQH" didn't work too well for this sort of race. Anyhow - they are here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/results/result.asp?RaceID=K75G) but, to save everyone the trouble of a click:

Trois Rivieres, 31 August 1975
1 Vittorio Brambilla, Doug Shierson Racing #91 March 75B - Ford BDA Cosworth, 60 laps, 1.04.12.5
2 Jean-Pierre Jarier, Fred Opert Racing/Gitanes #2 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 60 laps, 1.04.53.7
3 Jean-Pierre Jaussaud, Fred Opert Racing/Gitanes #3 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 60 laps,
4 José Dolhem, Fred Opert Racing/Gitanes #7 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 59 laps,
5 Hector Rebaque, Fred Opert Racing #5 Chevron B29 [29.75.03] - Ford BDA Hart, 59 laps,
6 Bertil Roos, Ecurie Canada-Schweppes/Castrol #40 March 75B [10] - Ford BDA Hart, 59 laps,
7 Dave Walker, Robert Joubert Racing- Quaker State #30 Lola T350 [HU1] - Ford BDA Nicholson, 59 laps,
8 John Nicholson, Alan McCall Racing #18 Tui BH2 - Ford BDA Nicholson, 58 laps,
9 Seb Barone, Isola Racing #28 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 58 laps,
10 Syd Demovsky, B&B Racing #80 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 58 laps,
11 Tom Bagley, Kent Oil #52 Chevron B27 - Ford BDA Hart, 58 laps, Out of petrol
12 Peter Ferguson, Ferguson Canada Racing-Samsonite #76 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 53 laps,
13 Tom Pumpelly, Cavanaugh Racing-Hoffman #34 March 75B - Ford BDA Cosworth, 52 laps,
14 Price Cobb, Doug Shierson Racing #6 March 75B - Ford BDA Race Shop, 50 laps,
15 Giles Villeneuve, Skiroulle #69 March 75B [8] - Ford BDA Swindon, 46 laps, Accident
16 Frank Delvecchio, Analube #39 March 73B [722-20] - Ford BDA Cosworth, 36 laps,
17 James King, Raggedy Ann Racing #22 March 73B - Ford BDA Traylor, 31 laps, Gearbox
18 Bobby Rahal, Red Roof Inns #23 Lola T360 - Ford BDA McCoy, 26 laps, Gearbox
19 Tom Klausler, Traylor #63 Lola T360 - Ford BDA Whitehurst, 25 laps, Electrics
20 David Westgate, #71 Lola T360 [HU4] - Ford BDA Hart, 24 laps,
21 Howdy Holmes, Bill Scott Racing #24 Lola T360 - Ford BDA BSR, 21 laps, Cam belt
22 Elliot Forbes-Robinson, Bill Scott Racing-Penthouse #44 Lola T360 - Ford BDA BSR, 20 laps, Engine
23 Bruce Jensen, Jensen Exotic Plants #41 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, 13 laps, Stuck throttle
24 Charles T. Gibson, #58 March 712M - Ford BDA Cosworth, 13 laps,
25 Craig Hill, Ecurie Canada/Gabriel #4 March 75B - Ford BDA Hart, 12 laps,
26 Chip Mead, Lambrusco by Zonin #17 March 75B - Ford BDA Cosworth, 12 laps,
27 Bill Brack, STP #1 Chevron B29 [29.75.16] - Ford BDA Hart, 9 laps, Accident
28 Damien Magee, Alan McCall Racing #19 Tui BH2 - Ford BDA Nicholson, 9 laps, Accident
29 Reg Scullion, Dicom Express #95 March 74B - Ford BDA Hart, 7 laps,
30 Patrick Depailler, Ecurie Canada/Ramada Inns #12 March 75B - Ford BDA Williams, 4 laps, Engine
31 Jacques Desjardins, #87 Lola T360 - Ford BDA Nicholson, 2 laps,
DNQH Hugh Cree, #16 Chevron B29 - Ford BDA Hart, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Tom Gloy, Hanna Industries #13 Lola T360 - Ford BDA Smith, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Vince Muzzin, #99 March 75B - Ford BDA Cosworth, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Pat Walter, Amerodaen Racing #10 Ralt RT1 [6] - Ford BDA, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH John Gloviak, #65 Brabham BT35 [41] - Ford BDA Hart, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Mauro Lanaro, #35 March 712M - Ford BDA Cosworth, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Marcel Talbot, Tamaco Industries #9 March 75B - Ford BDA, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Tim Cooper, Rutledge Oil #8 March 75B - Ford BDA Williams, Did not qualify from heats
DNQH Bruce Kramer, #90 Elden Mk 16 [155/16001/73] - Ford BDA, Did not qualify from heats
DNS Cliff Hansen, Doug Shierson Racing March 75B - Ford BDA Cosworth, Did not start
DNS Patrick Depailler, Ecurie Canada/Ramada Inns #12 March 75B [12] - Ford BDA Cosworth, Did not start

Heat 1

1 Charles T. Gibson, ? laps,
2 Hugh Cree, ? laps,
3 Tom Gloy, ? laps,
4 Vince Muzzin, ? laps,
5 Pat Walter, ? laps,
6 John Gloviak, ? laps,
7 Mauro Lanaro, ? laps,
8 Marcel Talbot, ? laps,
9 Tim Cooper, ? laps,
10 Bruce Kramer, ? laps,

Qualifying

1 Patrick Depailler, 1.05.3
1 Patrick Depailler * , 1.05.3
2 Jean-Pierre Jarier, 1.05.4
3 Giles Villeneuve, 1.05.9
4 Tom Klausler, 1.06.0
5 José Dolhem, 1.06.1
6 Bobby Rahal, 1.06.3
7 Howdy Holmes, 1.06.4
8 Tom Bagley, 1.06.5
9 Vittorio Brambilla, 1.06.6
10 Bill Brack, 1.06.7
11 Bruce Jensen, 1.06.9
12 Chip Mead, 1.06.9
13 Jean-Pierre Jaussaud, 1.06.9
14 Damien Magee, 1.06.9
15 Elliot Forbes-Robinson, 1.07.0
16 Price Cobb, 1.07.0
17 Dave Walker, 1.07.1
18 Cliff Hansen * , 1.07.2
19 Bertil Roos, 1.07.2
20 Hector Rebaque, 1.07.3
21 Tom Pumpelly, 1.07.7
22 Syd Demovsky, 1.07.7
23 James King, 1.07.9
24 Craig Hill, 1.08.1
25 Seb Barone, 1.08.1
26 John Nicholson, 1.08.3
29 Peter Ferguson, 1.08.6
30 Reg Scullion, 1.08.7
31 Frank Delvecchio, 1.08.9
32 Jacques Desjardins, 1.08.9
33 David Westgate, 1.09.3

* Did not start

Allen and Chris.

What is your source for Villenueves 75B-8 ?

I had advised that Howard Blight [ owner ] and myself had some info. that advised Howards car was Gilles , earlier somewhere in this thread, however not conclusive.

Preferrably you can advise another source.??

Bryan.

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Allen and Chris.

What is your source for Villenueves 75B-8 ?

I had advised that Howard Blight [ owner ] and myself had some info. that advised Howards car was Gilles , earlier somewhere in this thread, however not conclusive.

Preferrably you can advise another source.??

Bryan.

I'm not sure if this point has been made before, and I'm too lazy to check all the threads, but wasn't 75B-8 a Shierson car, which later fetched up in NZ with Dave Saudners?

David, yes I advised a long time ago in this thread that it is Saunder's car, and it is 75B-8 which we have been advised was Gilles Atlantic car from Canada.
I was rather hoping some other source had come to Allen or Chris to be able to be sure of the original story .

Bryan.

Driftwood ,

The start of your poss. March 742U-1 or whatever is I believe on page 2 of this thread , wher David McKinney advises re. 75B March.in New Zealand.
Happy reading, Chris Townsend feels this is an ex. Val Musetti car from the U.K.

Bryan.

OK< this will get this thread restarted. At Goodwood on Friday, I was given a mass of photocopied Formula Atlantic programme entry lists by Adam Ferrington. On some of them, he noted chassis numbers and confirmed to me that those would have been his observations of chassis plates at the time.

So here goes:

Oulton Park 30 Sep 1972
(Cyd) Williams - March 722 [39]
Salisbury - Brabham BT35 [43]
Gubelmann - March 722 [24]
(Michael) Mather - March 721M [12]
Meek - Brabham BT38 [28]
Allen - Royale RP12 [1]
Calvert - March 722 [29]

More to follow

Allen

Oulton Park 7 Jul 1973
Bailey - March 722 [39]
Gilbert - Brabham BT35 [43]
Purley - March 722 [10]
Bohm - Lotus 69 [71/69-11 F3]
Choularton - March 73B [1]

Oulton Park 22 Sep 1973
Baker - Brabham BT40 [33]

Oulton Park 27 Apr 1974
Spitzley - March 733 [7]
Musetti - Royale RP11 [02]
Thomson - GRD 273 [051]

Oulton Park 5 May 1974
Nicholson - Lyncar [025] - presumably 005 misread
Williams - Brabham BT40 [21]
Spiller/Bond - March 73B [74BU-1]
(Schuppan/)Clarkson - March 722 [40]
Wentz - March 74B [1]
Thomson - GRD 273 [051] - at least I think it says 051
Jones - March 712M [9]
Brown - March 74B [9]

Results: Crawford - Williams - Walkinshaw - Brise - ?? - Nicholson.
45m 26.4s 109.37 mph
FL Wentz 111.68 mph
(are those the sort of results you were after?)

I have two copies of this page and one appears to have qualifying positions as well.

Oulton Park 26 May 1975
(I.e. http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/results/result.asp?RaceID=B75G)
Crawford - Chevron B29 [15]
Brise - Modus M1 [009]
Mallock - March 75B [U-1]
Choularton - Chevron B29 [19]
Wentz - Lola T360 [7]
Spitzley - Chevron B29 [25]
May - Lola T360B [5]
Sharp - Lyncar [005]
Lawler - Chevron B29 [6]
Perry - March 742 [23]
Riley - Chevron B29 [4]

Silverstone 19 Jul 1975
(i.e. http://www.oldracingcars.com/F5000/results/result.asp?RaceID=B75J)
McGarrity - Chevron [7]
Gugax - Modus [20-F3]
Pollock - Chevron [12]
Donnelly - March [73B-8]

Chris, thanks, I was confusing Clarkson completely. Apparently his 74 March F At was a 722, entered by Hurford Jones, the MultiGlide car was Richard Knight amongst others, I presume the Magnys Cours Racing school chap. is this the car Kim M had from about 75 to mid 77 then ? I see that Jones was also entered in 74 in a Harry Stiller 74B, is this a real 74B ?

Dan

Brain fade in confusing Clarkson with John Calvert [it was he who owned 722-29 [from new] and 732-1. But Clarkson still no connection to the Mike Sullivan car's history.

Jones in a 74B in 1974 could be correct since he took over the Harry Stiller racing car later in the season.

And the full list of runners are riders:

Brabham BT21 - Rocky Moran, Pierre Phillips
Brabham BT21C - Charlie Adams, Gary Gove, Bill Middleton
Brabham BT29 - John Angus, Doug Brenner, Dan Davis, Chuck Dietrich, Dick Doherty, Mike Eyerly, Barry Fox, Philip Geraldi, Randy Hancock, Ron Householder, Norman Johnson, Rudolfo Junco, Thomas Kornell, Allan Lader, Steve Louden, Peter Nye, Raul Perez Gama, Mike Rand, Tom Reddy, Carlos Solio, Bob Wenz, Larry Wright, Jiro Yoneyama
Brabham BT35 - Nick Craw, James Gutfreund, Mike Hall, Steve Harris, Allan Lader, Maurice McCaig, Raul Perez Gama, Russ Tyndall
Brand X Huffaker - Jon Woodner
Chevron - Warren Flickinger
Chevron B14 - Thomas Jones
Chevron B15 - Jim Grob
Chevron B15/B17 - Peter Darr
Chevron B17B - Tom Outcault
Chevron B18 - Freddy Van Buren, Carl Liebich
Cicada - Gus Hutchison
Cicada Mk I -Dan Murphy
Excar - Jon Woodner
LeGrand Mk 12 - Jim King
LeGrand Mk 14 - Gene Forsthofel
Lola T240 - Syd Demovsky, Mike Hiss, Howard Johnson, Rocky Moran, Chuck Sarich, Jim Sarich, Skip Walther, Charles Wanamaker
Lola T240D - Skip Walther
Lonizer - Gene Forsthofel
Lotus 69 - WP Fred Stevenson
Lotus 69B - Jacques Couture, Robert Hebert, Dave McConnell, William Monson
March 705 - Mike Hayman
March 712M - Bill Gubelmann
March 71BM - Ron Dykes, Joe Grimaldi, Bill Gubelmann, Dale Lang, Bob Lazier, Max Mizejewski
Palliser - Jerardo Martinez
Tecno - Skeeter McKitterick, Gus Hutchison
Tui - Bert Hawthorne

Most of the BT35s arrived very late in the season. The quantity of Lola T240s was a surprise to me.

Allen

PS Four posts in a row - time to do something else!

A friend of mine has just "liberated" from a 20 year hibernation a couple of March 732s. The first car has stamped on the tub 732-57. A lot of the parts have 732-55 including the fuel cells,its complete minus engine and box. The second car is thought to be a 73A all we can find on it is AM73-48. The tub behind the seat has been cut away to give increased space in the engine bay. ANY CLUES ??

Ted

A 73A? You mean a F5000 car? Or did you mean a 73B Formula Atlantic?

Allen

Allen,

There are no 75Bs in my 1975 March records, but given what I've seen, yes, 75Bs could well have had the "AM" tub numbers.
Do you know a current 75B owner who could confirm this?

ADAM

David,

Correct , Ken Smiths car was 732-9/15 which came to Australia and was campaigned by Ken Shirvinton and he retains to this day.

Richard Carter's car is 73B-8 ex Colin Vandervell Yellow Pages car which went to Des Donnelly and then came to Australia in the same boat as my 74B-12 .

Richard sold the car about 2 years ago and the car is being used very well by Andrew Makin from Melbourne.

Re the 75A , if it does have Australian recent history I may be able to assist.

Bryan.

Dan,

In answer to your comment about this thread being well off course , yes it has been since page 1 , when as a newcomer and not being aware of the correct ettiquette , I posted March 74B stuff on the poor old Chevron thread , apologies to all.

However as it is off course lets keep it there.

About 6 weeks ago I rec'd from the guys at March Ives in the U.S.A. a copy of the Factory March drawing register and some drawings I needed for the rear wing etc.for 742 and 74B series cars.

To my surprise the 742 cars have bag tank number drawings as part no. 732-15-01 L.H. and 732-15-02 R.H. specified for BMW and Hart engines.
The 74B cars part numbers are 73B-15-01 L.H. and 73B-15-02 R.H for the BDA and Twin Cam cars.

I went and checked my tanks straight away and mine are stencilled as per the 742 cars , and dated Jan. 1973 , however no tub number stencilled on them.

The 12 month earlier than car build date of the tanks is probably easily explained by March purchasing in bulk.
But why does my car have 742 tanks in a 74B , as I presume , but ready to be corrected , that the capacity required for the F2 cars would have been larger than F/A cars.

75B-8 is in Australia , but was re-tubbed in 1977/8 so am no use in ascertaining if it had an AM number.

My car doesn't have any indication of an AM number , where was this stamped.?? In the usual place as part of the Tub number under the LHS roll over bar pick-up ?? or was it on the engine frame somewhere?? or was this only on later cars??

I think I am trying to say that ANYTHING could happen at March and we will have a hell of a job even sorting some bits out, for instance my car may even be a re-constituted F2 wreck from 73 , built up and sold as a new 74B , we haven't a hope of finding out, without having a list [ if it exists ] of chassis number with corresponding tub numbers.

Bryan.

Bryan
when you talk about your 74B are you talking about your ex Brett Riley car or another car?

My brother Kevin owns what turned out to be the ex. Brett Riley 772/77B .
My 74B has never been near N.Z.

Bryan.

But didn't Brett run that car in UK. Did he then take it back to NZ after the 77 British Atlantic season?

I can't be certain where to post this so I suppose this thread is best.

I found this in a newly acquired Motoring News and it might connect up some Marchs.

Motoring News 12 May 1977 p22: Paul Gardner has the ex-Steve Choularton March 73B for Libre racing. It is now to 742 spec but will have 752 bodywork.

His team-mate will be John Walker who has the "ex-David Purley/Graham Perry (Harrison) Atlantic engined March 742".

I hope that is useful.

Allen

Allen

Knew about the John Walker car, which was chassis 23 [Once I got over the possibility that it was Purley's 722 that Perry raced]. He had that in 76 as well. The Gardner info is new. I think that Choularton may have kept the car for a couple of years rather than selling it in 74.

Chris

Anthony Hansford raced the "ex Choularton/Crawford" 73B as a 732 (with STP livery and a Cosworth BDG!) in HSCC and occasional BOSS events around 95-98. Since he races an Arrows/Footwork now, not sure if he still has the March.

Apologies, got my Pattersons in a twist!
Jas - March 722-73B [Renoir International Racing]
Jack - Wimhurst in Atlantic at much the same time

Chris

Back on page 19 , when Adam Ferrington listed all his chassis numbers , he advised Bev Bond in Harry Stiller March 73B [ 74B U1 ]for the Oulton Park meeting 5/5/1974 .

This is very strange, as this should be 74B-12 , but as the entry is for a March 73B , not 74B , is this perhaps a ring -in , as I have a photo of what is probably this car , Ref. Autosport Feb. 28 1974 p. 18 , which shows Bev Bond in a spot of bother at Brands , '' in the car he campaingned briefly at the end of last year '', however it is all decked out in the Custom Made/ Harry Stiller racing colours.
At the Oulton Park meeting did they perhaps run this car instead of the 1974 car , due to the 74 car not having the side rad. long nose conversion completed.??

Chris ,this 74B-U1 chassis plate seems to have been fitted to all manner of Marchs , is this not a plate associated with Val Mussetti.?

What was the identity of this Bev Bond 73B. Any clues.

Bryan.

Bryan

I agree it is odd, and have been puzzling over it since Adam published that information.
The U1 suffix on the plate simply means [I think] that it is a hors series development model. [There were often two of these, U1 and U2 for any works build run] One of Musetti's cars may have been 742-U1, but I'm beginning to think he just had a 742 tub and the actual plates, which probably were not attached to the cars, were for two far earlier models.

British teams often ended up with the U cars because they were cheap ways of getting a new car, since the works had already had considerable mileage out of them. [Both the kosher March 75Bs that appear in Britain, for example, are U cars - Derek Cook and Ray Mallock]

Chris

Chris , where did the Bev Bond 73B [ 74-U1 ] come from and go to ??

Chris, was Ray M's 75B really a 'kosher' car ? I thought it was based on the ex-Laffite 742. Didn't he keep this car thru' 76 after his 'adventures' with the wonderful Lola T450 ?

Jim,
Re your March sighting , I reckon that the plate is non original , and somebody at some time had the car and the chassis plate was missing , and found the tub number and made a new plate with the tub number as the chassis no. not knowing or caring that these two numbers never were the same , my 74B-12 is on tub 732-026 , and I am sure all the F3 cars used the same tubs as well .
If we knew the history of the car , maybe we could figure it all out.

Regards Bryan.

Ian Rimmer's 76B at Silverstone, 21 May, 2006. Entered in the Derek Bell Trophy race it didn't get to race as the appallingly wet conditions were deemed too dangerous and the race was cancelled. (I believe this car would not have raced anyway, in any conditions other than dry, as I understand that no wet weather tyres were available for it.)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5049/silverstonehscc40th21may200600.th.jpg (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverstonehscc40th21may200600.jpg)

John

Lovely looking car, don't suppose you got the plate number?

Chris

No, sorry, Chris; it was latecomer, and I just snatched this pic, as I was passing through on a sweep up!

John, whats the red no. 67 behind the March, looks like a B25/B27?

(Dan, yes - see here:- http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1619473&postcount=14 - JT)

Anthony Hansford raced the "ex Choularton/Crawford" 73B as a 732 (with STP livery and a Cosworth BDG!) in HSCC and occasional BOSS events around 95-98. Since he races an Arrows/Footwork now, not sure if he still has the March.
FYI
this car was sold to usa 4 years ago i saw it 2 years ago at BRICS
Tony bought the car as a wreck & restored it
the true story is the car was 732 Coulon car but was rebadged by march for 74 season as 73B car hence tony running it as 73B#1 ( i believe dont quote me) but it was 732#13 semi works car hence his STP livery


"ex-David Purley/Graham Perry (Harrison) Atlantic engined March 742".
was this chassis 30 team harper car
if so its racing in uk and was raced originally by Bernard de Dryver he was at BH last month and actually came to look at the car whilst i was talking to the current owner

There were often two of these, U1 and U2 for any works build run] One of Musetti's cars may have been 742-U1, but I'm beginning to think he just had a 742 tub and the actual plates, which probably were not attached to the cars, were for two far earlier models
741 U1 & 2 are in uk- same owner having them rebuilt to run

Chris, was Ray M's 75B really a 'kosher' car ? I thought it was based on the ex-Laffite 742. Lafttite raced the BP livery car with Martini modified nose- that car has been in UK 6 years & racing now n then

John

Lovely looking car, don't suppose you got the plate number?

Chris


Hi Chris,

It's an ex Canadian car, with a log book. It has a chassis plate 76B-12.

Ian Rimmer

Ian

Welcome to the forum. Would love to know more about the car.
At the moment I have the following on 76Bs

1: Ian Scheckter [though this number also attributed to Hansen's car by a rather suspect source
3: Gilles Villeneuve [though used two other cars in season]. Now owned by Jon Norman
6: Price Cobb
14: Shierson [Brambilla at trois rivieres]
17: Graeme Lawrence
19: Dave Charlton
20: Shierson spare not used until NZ 1977

Chassis 8 exists in US but don't know who with or whose it was

and a great many unknowns

In 76 season

Bobby Rahal [two cars, one he owned and the other belonging to Shierson]
Tom Pumpelly [also used by Villeneuve]
Villeneuve [spare car]
Cliff Hansen
John Mortensen
Seb Barone
Herman Gugliotta
Marty Loft [owned by Shierson]
Bobby Brown
Tom Outcault

I suspect Ian's may be the first ever real 76B to race in Britain. Not a bad record 30 years after they were made here !!!

fred goddard has 76b with mazda in it he ran in ZA many moons ago ha dit here for over 12 years but its never ran

Without trawling back, what do we know of the Norman Dickson '74B'. I recall speaking in summer '76 to one of his mechanics, who, I distinctly remember, described it as a '72B'. I presume, knowing what we know now, it was actually a 722, or maybe not ...

76B-20 is for sale www.racecarsdirect.com , stated 12 races from new , car is ex Ken Smith and is still in N.Z.

Re tubs , 75B-8 is narrow tub , albeit on it's replacement tub from the 1977 prang , the replacement tub is a 773 tub number.

Bryan.

Bryan

By 1975 I think that Atlantic Marches shared tubs with the F3 series. Certainly did in 1976 and 77. So rebuilding on a 773 tub makes sense

Chris

Ted was most kind today and allowed me to borrow the following pictures so I could scan, post and return them.

Friswell's 73B at Silverstone June 1974
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March73B-Friswell-SilvJun74-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March73B-Friswell-SilvJun74-1000x.jpg)

Musetti's "74B" at Snetterton March 1975
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-SnettMarr75-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-SnettMarr75-1000x.jpg)

Musetti's "752" at Mallory March 1976
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-MalloryMar76-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-MalloryMar76-1000x.jpg)

Mather's "742" or "752" at Silverstone Apr 1977
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Mather-SilvApr77-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Mather-SilvApr77-1000x.jpg)

Allen

PS Met Andrew at Silverstone today and John will be there tomorrow. Anyone else planning to go?

76B-20 is for sale .....stated 12 races from new
I bet I can count more than 12 races I saw it in :p

I was there today getting tyres fitted to my lola wheels
saw a few march tubs became a bore and took fotos of front slopes ( yes i need to get out more !! ) i saw 712 is dead flat and 76B car has small slope at the front say 2 inch max-i will look at my 742 tub tomorow
the 742 racing didnt have nose off but i was discussing his misfire problem so was suitably distracted !!
saw strettons totally F#@KD 712 CAR AFTER HE TREID TO POLE VAULT ANOTHER CAR IN QUALIFYING!
but at least he has a spare car to swap engine gbox over into- his tub has creases in places the would make the panel man wince

looking at the fotos Musetti car looks like its going to be 742 car with 752 body rear wing has centre pole into end cover of gbox as opposed to basket
bodywork is an easy upgrade drop onto chassis

752 nose on mathers car is different to musetti 75 nose so from this angle foto i cant tell if it ha sthe cut out cockpit into nose or is a straight cut across nose/cockpit section ie the 742 has
cockpits on 752 cars are correct 75 parts:cool:

76B 20 is still owned by smiffy- u dont expect a kiwi to tell u the truth do u?:rofl:

Another alteration between Musseti's 74B / 742 , and his 752 is the re-location of the dry sump tank and probably also the style, the 74B/742 is cylindrical and sits in what is known as the ''monster bracket'', don't laugh even the March drawings refer to it as such , and this sits centreline under the rear wing hung off the FT200, the 752 is tapered and sits inbetween the rhs of the gearbox and the rear wheel, expensive exercise for little gain .

Mather's car , the sidepods/deformable structures are unlike any I have seen except the 772 type.
Also the rear wing seems to be supported by the Modus style twin plate arrangement , and whilst the wing may well be March the mount isn't .
If any of these cars looks like a bitsa it is this one.

David , that is why I said '' stated''.

Bryan.

monster bracket or basket re rear wing oil tank frame
732 is different to 742 frames look the same till u fit to thecar

later march cars had oil tank behind roll hoop in front of engine just like the 712 car had
maybe march slung it out the back for the longer bmw m12 motor??

also the side crush sid epods for f2 and B cars look the same but small subtle difference in the mounting bolts
the B has the cut out and i believe f2 doesnt
but im waiting to be corrected
i only make that comment cos i have 3 pods and 1 is different!

To recap the Musetti business, he crashes a car in practice at the GP meeting July 1975 and Autosport says he rushes home and builds up his "old" tub in time for the race. Then, in December 1975, he fits a Swindon to "his March" and then runs it as a 752 in 1976. By early/mid 1976 he has two cars, one Atlantic and one F2.

What we don't (yet) know is where the second tub/car comes from. The implication is that is retubs his March at some point in the first half of 1975 but then the original tub is also built up into a car giving him two cars. Exactly which one is then the ex-73B and which one is the other one is proving hard to figure out.

Allen

i reckon u will only get these answers from the horses mouth or the spanner man of the day- does he still have the ice cream parlour?:p

Musetti's "74B" at Snetterton March 1975
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-SnettMarr75-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-SnettMarr75-1000x.jpg)

Musetti's "752" at Mallory March 1976
http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-MalloryMar76-400x.jpg (http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/ferret/March-Musetti-MalloryMar76-1000x.jpg)To narrow the gap between these two cars a little, the one that Musetti races in a libre at Brands on 16 Nov 1975 looks just like the first of these two cars. His next appearance is at Brands again on Boxing Day and then he has the 2-litre car. I bought the program to that Boxing Day race this afternoon and Musetti entered his car as a 1600cc March 75B, not as a 2-litre. The first time he's pictured in 1976 is at the MCD Open round at Oulton on 7 March and the car looks like the bottom photo.

A couple more clues emerge later into 1976. Walkinshaw borrows the March for a F2 race at the Nurburgring the week after Thruxton. MT refers to it as 742 in the MN report but on the grid, where he tends to put the most detail, calls it a 74B. (F1R call it 74B/U1 when Val tries it out at the Thruxton F2 race, 742-U1 when it appears in G8 and then 752/15 at the Nurburgring!)

Chris - does Val actually race an Atlantic in 1976? I can't see him in Indylantic but maybe I haven't looked hard enough. And I recall you mentioning an article (in MN?) that said Val had two cars - do you have a note of the date of that article so I can have a read?

Allen

Sorry, an error and an omission in that last post but my 10 minutes to edit it has elapsed.

The error: it's not the Open round in March where Val is pictured but the one in April. So Ted's picture is actually the earliest one I have in 1976.

The omission: Motoring News reports on a libre at Thruxton (11 Mar 1976 p8) where it says "Val Musetti's ex-Henton March 752 Swindon BDX was on pole". Ex-Henton?! That's new. Flicking back to the start of the 1975 F2 season, Henton's 752 was called chassis "P" by MN and "U1P" by AS. The deal to run Henton seems to have been a last minute affair and the chassis was only completed the night before. It went pretty well in 1975 until Ertl crashed into it at Mugello in July after which Henton's only appearance was in the Wheatcroft at Silverstone.

A wide tub 752 makes a big difference of course, as the NZ car was said to be a 742 and I'm sure someone would have noticed if it didn't have a narrow tub. If this is right, the car in NZ must have been the one that began life with Matthews and Wood must have got the ex-Henton 752.

So is this what we've been searching for? Or is Chris just about to pour cold water over me? :)

Allen

Damn, blast and expletive deleted! Don't worry Chris, I'll pour the cold water over it myself.

Richard Robarts had 752/P in 1976. So Musetti can't have done.

And ... both Musetti's Marchs ran at Nurburgring on 2 May 1976 - Musetti himself in what MT calls a "March 742" and Walkinshaw in a "March 74B". So are we looking for an ex-Henton 742? Sorry, I can't summon the will...

Oh, by the way, the Boxing Day Brands program write-up on the libre race says that Musetti has put a F2 Swindon engine in his Atlantic March. Maybe that might help one day...

allen may i be so bold as to repeat my earlier comment that you need to ask val or his spanner man these questions- it will save you time and get you more answers on things:laugh:
You must appreciate that back in 75 ish it didnt matter to them what the car was they made fixed swapped over car parts to get to the next race so when the scribe asked them what the car was they may have been given half the real answer and the scribe man an assumption on another part of the cars spec ( assuming he was at the meeting not getting a report 3rd hand form his mates!! ) and reading 12 months of AS race reports and editorial reports to get the info is going to take time and get you all worked up ( and confused):rofl:

Couldn't agree more. Chris has been trying to get hold of Musetti through his film business links but has not yet been successful. Dave Price looked after Musetti's 761 a year or two later but I don't know who his spanner man was in 1975/76. The chance of Dave Price remembering seem slim as running Val Musetti was not exactly the high point of his career but I'll take your advice and give him a call when I get back from holiday. Assuming I've regained the will by then.

WHAT ABOUT THE ICE CREAM PARLOUR BIZ?:p
ITS WORTH ASKING dpr FOR INFO-MAYBE THE SPANNER MAN IS AROUND

Allen, Val M I'm sure didn't do any Indylantic in 76. He was out in the 'British Open', which series I think he won, usually against fairly low quality opposition, usually only John Wingfield's F2 RT1, and sometimes the Whiting/Galicia TS16, plus sundry other Libre stuff.

Also of course, the G8 series where he started in the 'F2 March', and later got the ex-Walkinshaw 752GA. He gradually revised the latter thru' 76-77, and called it a '761' for the Aurora races in 1978. I don't think he ever had a real 761, tho' he did get the 781 for early 1979 Aurora.

Scouring some '75 A/Sports, I see Rick Whyman crop in some mid-75 Libre races in a March of some description. Any ideas, as this would be before he went pretty well in FF1600 ??

You've got good eyesight! I thought I'd looked at 1975 pretty closely and I only found him once - in fifth place at Rufforth 31 August. Where else have you spotted him?

Is the 75A march the Ga engine car in Thursdays livery?- thats now in usa racing
Guy edwards had Ultramar liveried car was that 76 or 75A?

I have heard back from Roger Orgee on his Lyncar & march cars (AB shall i post that info now or later after u have looked throught it all?) also have b48 info to load up as well to get u guys going !!
How many 781 cars where built?

75A in US? No, I don't think it is
Ultramar car? That was the 75A but with a 761 tub for 1977
Post the Orgee stuff? Please do, I've only covered off the Lyncar
How many 781s? Two. Why?

IIRC the 75A was based on a 751 tub, used by Jones in Thursdays colours in 1975. Magee/Hexagon had it for most of 1976 in white, then back to RAM for Edwards in 1977 in Titbits/MD4 livery. All this time with a 3.4 GA.

Edwards then put a DFV in for 1978 in Aurora, I think it was then called a 751ie back to what it had been originally! Used by Allison too that year, after the team got the 2 781s. After that I think it went sprinting with Terry Smith perhaps ???

Yes, that's basically right but the 75A was rebuilt by March using a redundant 761 tub over the 1976/77 close season.

It acquired the DFV in July 1977, in time for the July Mallory.

You've got good eyesight! I thought I'd looked at 1975 pretty closely and I only found him once - in fifth place at Rufforth 31 August. Where else have you spotted him?

OTOH a Cadwell Libre, around that time. Will check tonight !!

Allen the thursdays 75A GA car is in usa saw it BRICS 03 either that im blind!
So yr saying 75A (thursdays) car is the Edwards blue n yella 76 car ( sans 761 tub) but in 75 body plate etc
There is 1 76A GA car running sporadically in the uk with the Barry brothers
is that the ONLY 76A car and the thursday/edwards car is the ONLy 75A ga
f5000 car?

March 781`s was just curious wonderedif i could go and makea new car claim some FIA papers make a fortune ripping someone off with another F1 march fake-seems others do it so why cant I!!

because you're too honest

There is a car in the US that claims to be the 75A - you didn't imagine it - but I really don't think that car actually is the 75A. Call it a hunch.

To digress further OT, do you happen to know where the ex-Roy Lane, ex-Ken Ayers, ex-Paul Edwards March/Lyncar 79S is today?

allen yr right im too honest however i dont tell her indoors what the cars cost to rebuild!:laugh:
the 79S car is this the sprint car with dfv motor 781 tub 792 looking bodywork
yes i know where it is wanna buy it!:p

re 75a in usa send me mail as to yr hunch:rotate:
will post other info later its on office pc

My hunch is simply based on the fact that the 75A was in F1 spec last time it was seen and I can't believe anyone would turn it back into a F5000. Can't see the financial justification. I think the 75A that's out there is some other March F5000 tub (there were many) that's accidentally acquired a 75A tag and thus been restored to the spec of the only 75A.

Yes, that's the 79S. Thought you'd know.

all depends when it was last seen and what its "value" is as a mongrel f1 car

its possible common sense showed that the car was really F5000 and not f1 car and was logically returned to its true condition:D

Im sure we can dig up a few cars with changed ID`s over a 5-10 year period and argue where its real history lies versus its greatest financial value lies
but im sure the original f5000 is hands down winner over some pith poor f1 status
its a march not a ferrari after all
as they say u cant polish a turd:laugh:
did i hear yr wallet rattle over the 79S??:rofl:

Allen the thursdays 75A GA car is in usa saw it BRICS 03 either that im blind!
So yr saying 75A (thursdays) car is the Edwards blue n yella 76 car ( sans 761 tub) but in 75 body plate etc
There is 1 76A GA car running sporadically in the uk with the Barry brothers
is that the ONLY 76A car and the thursday/edwards car is the ONLy 75A ga
f5000 car?

March 781`s was just curious wonderedif i could go and makea new car claim some FIA papers make a fortune ripping someone off with another F1 march fake-seems others do it so why cant I!!

There were 2 real 76As made weren't there. The Cramer UK climber, which is the one with the Barrys, and the US car for Shierson in 76, used by Jones and occasionally Flammini.

Where is the real 75A now Allen, over here ? OTOH I thought it was numbered in the 751 series, rather than as a '75A', though I realise the differences were minimal.

Was the 79S built on an old 782, or on a new '782' tub?

There was a second 76A which was last seen as a very, very ugly Can-Am car about 1979. F1R believed that the 75A was 751/4 as that car didn't race in GPs but March records clearly show it as 75A/1 and show that 751/4 was an unraced F1 test car (actually later became the Henton 761).

I don't know what the 79S was built on.

The real 75A was a 761 by the time in went to Italy. It had a 761 tub (one of the tubs that had spent time in Brambilla's 761/1), 761 suspension, 761 bodywork and a 761 engine installation. It may still be in Italy but it may also be one of the three "extra" 761s currently in historic/vintage racing. I'd be most interested to know where the US '75A' came from.

I don't know what the 79S was built on.
u DO NOW and u have the pics to prove it !!!

for those out of the loop twas 782 tub last unused from factory had 781 rear bulkhead eng frame and mongrel 792 ish body fitted with fgb and dfv
now as a bitsa dismantled roller
re 761 cars
was it 10 cars built and all 16 are running now!!
plus there where 2 x 761B cars
1 in bits still in uk 1 restored in usa

Guys below is the email from Roger Orgee regarding his cars and i have set him some questions so u dont have to ask them!

Here goes,memory may have faded,it's not me racing now but my son,Roger jnr in F BMW!
MARCH 742.
bought this off Jonathan Buncombe (who bought roller off Geoff Friswell) JB fitted an FVD motor and I raced it at one Silverstone libre race and intended to do F2 Aurora with it.
Saw sense at the last minute and fitted a Richardson Atlantic motor and entered Hitachi Atlantic in 1979.
As car was a real 742 it's running gear was too heavy for Atlantic so I bought a load of 772p lightweight bits off Kim Mather and got it down to a competitive weight and 772p spec.
Sold it up north as a roller at the end of 79. do u recall who to?
ATLANTIC racer male white straight!! -The 772p suffix was to add value!
so u added on a dummy 772P plate or infered car was in 772P trim INFERRED

MARCH 782/79B
bought a 782 off Paul Smith (of BMTR ) Paul built this from spare parts he had in stock so God knows what the plate was!
aha this is going to be fun Smiffy said he had the rad dougal car and a pile of parts
1 car was built and sent to ZA to bernard tilanus the other is in maidstone went sprinting both cars have 782 #?? tag on them both claim to be the REAL dougall car !!
The car was then converted to 79B spec,mainly ground effect pods etc off Andy Barton. Ran in 1980 Hitachi Atlantic best place third at Thruxton.Binned it big time at Oulton park,new tub provided by Andy Barton.
Sold complete car to another chap from the frozen north (Huddersfield?) at the request of the bank manager!
Bill woodl/willy wood by any chance??
(See here:- http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87591&page=12 - JT)

LYNCAR BDX
bought this in 83 of Keith Corridon in bits.I think it became a kit of parts backwards against the armco somewhere as the casing was bust. It was originally Atlantic spec (Villota?) but Martin Slater of Lyncar (Lyn and Carol) wondered how the name came!! had fitted full ground effect side pods and exhaust system. no idea of chassis no though.
fitted full F2 Spec BDX complete with John Dunn megaphone system,and won BRSCC open series 2 litre class in 1984 or was it 85? brilliant little car,we never changed anything.Had it rebuilt at Slough where I did most of the work as Martin was building the six wheeled armoured vehicle used in Aliens 2!
Sold the roller to a dealer in Trowbridge,where it stayed for ages, and the engine to the USA (first time I ever made a profit from a racecar).
Last heard of at Brighton speed trials looking 'orrible without its pods!
(See here:- http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87593&page=3 - JT)

Next car was the ex Danner F3000 March 86B,any questions?
u mean 85B that he won the euro F3000 c/ship! yes,WON BRITISH OPEN in 1987,ran it in 88 and sold it less dfv and bought 88d reynard f3000.
that car had v6 GA in it to go sprinting now less engine
Thought it was written off at sprint meeting as GA and polar moments didnt mix! sold it at end of 88 less DFV



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mention of 'Watson' on the GRD thread, I presume its Martin Watson. After his GRD he got a March, described as a 77B in about 1979-80. Anyone any ideas on its history/provenance ??

Dan

Watson's 77B was a real one, ex Ian Scheckter [as was Barton's]. I have chassis number observations of both cars at the same Silverstone meeting in 1979. Results for 79 Atlantic soon to be posted on ORC

Chris

This race (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.asp?RaceID=B79R)?

The 1979 British Atlantic results (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/racelist.asp?CategoryID=BP) are now on ORC but I've just noticed that I haven't yet copied across all of Chris's notes on his sources. I'll do that as soon as I get time.

(And I've noticed the page title is wrong!)

Allen

Scouring some '75 A/Sports, I see Rick Whyman crop in some mid-75 Libre races in a March of some description. Any ideas, as this would be before he went pretty well in FF1600 ??

Re-reading the 1981 Pace MotorSports Directory, I see Rick W had a March 708 FF at one point, so another mystery Libre March solved !

Well spotted Dan. The 1979/80 MRD even says that his first race in the FF1600 March 708 was at Rufforth in 1975. Quite possibly this race (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.asp?RaceID=X40A) then.

74B-7 C.Cramer White 10 Jan. 1974 with note lightweight hillclimb special

# 7 is the superbly liveried Grunhale Lager car of Chris Cramer


The car went from Chris Cramer to Martin Griffiths at the end of 1975.

During the Winter of 1976/1977 the car was sent to Mike Pilbeam who uprated the car and gave it the R28 type number.

Over the Winter of 1977/1978 the car again went back to Pilbeam's workshop when it was reworked once again. The car was now given the type number of MP32. It became known variously as either a 'March 74P' or as a 'Pilch' which stood for Pilbeam/March.

Over the Winter 1978/1979 the car was sold by Martyn Griffiths to Alan Newton. The car was campaigned as was by Newton until he had a close encounter with a tree at Doune. The car once again went back to Pilbeam's workshop where a new Pilbeam front end was grafted onto the March tub. Newton later sold the car to Peter Varley.

Varley campaigned the car for many years until he retired from the sport at which time it was sold to Alan Newton's sons. Alan has just completed a lengthy rebuild of the car and the brothers were out at Aintree earlier this month giving the car a shakedown trial.

:cool:

Well spotted Dan. The 1979/80 MRD even says that his first race in the FF1600 March 708 was at Rufforth in 1975. Quite possibly this race (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.asp?RaceID=X40A) then.

Allen, how do I access the 'Other/Club Libre' part of your superb ORC site ???

I am new to this site but have been in Motorsport since 1952. A little insight into March production. The F1 & 2 mechanics were apparently let go at the end of each season and re hired at far less as production workers until needed again. The assemblers sighed out a "complete" kit for whatever they were supposed to be building. It rarely was complete so parts got "borrowed" from another car! No wonder ther is confusion over the cars. When you got a new March it had to be taken apart and re-built. A Chevron you went racing.
I was a mechanic for Bruce Jensen who ran a 722 FB and then a front rad 74B. In reply to a question about the colour it was white with stylized light green plants on the nose. The # was 41. I do not remember the chassis #.
The car probably went to Fast Fredy Opert when Bruce bought a Chevron B29. Bruce probably could be reached at Jensen Tropical Plants in Apopka FL. We did not part on good terms in 1979. It is his son Eric who runs the current FA Mazda team in Champ Car.

Welcome Leighton - and thanks.

Leighton

Welcome and thanks for the update of Bruce Jensen's whereabouts - I thought the florists business might still have been running in Canada, but obviously he can grow without greenhouses down in Florida!

I know the chassis number of the 722 as it was the ex Roy Folland car that raced in England, and think I can work out the 74B as it's the only white one delivered early enough for the start of the season. However, can you remember another 74B, that of Dave Morris. Was this car all green? Only ran a few 74 races before it hit the remnants of one of Villeneuve's Marches and was broken up.

Also, did Bruce buy a March 79B off Shierson and hardly race it? [Or not race it at all? This may be after you left the team, and might have been a second hand car, previously used by Holmes.]

Chris

Chris: There were several acres and probably are of greenhouses in Fla. Bruce's daughter Jill runs the Cdn. end of things as Jill Jensen Botanical Specialties in Newcastle On. We are in the pond and garden business but have no contact with the Jensens.
The Dr. Dave Morris Phd. March was a fairly dark green as I recall it.
If BJ did buy a March from Doug I do not think he raced it. After the condition of the 74B when we got it new and a very unauthorized tour of the factory in 75 we were not impressed with the March operation although they were fast and easy to set up.
By the way Ric Forrest, another of the Edmonton drivers is the chief Honcho of the Edmonton Champ Car race and his son drives in the current Atlantic Series. Leighton

I see from the 74 A/S that I'm stuck into, a 'Mr Cutler' with a London fone no, is selling a 'March Atlantic 1974'. Any ideas ??

I see from the 74 A/S that I'm stuck into, a 'Mr Cutler' with a London fone no, is selling a 'March Atlantic 1974'. Any ideas ??

No ideas on this one chaps, Allen, Chris ???

Doesn't ring any bells.

Dan

What date is that Autosport?
It could be Wella selling Wentz's car or possibly a member of the Stiller team flogging 74B-U1

Chris

Chris,

It is neither of your suggestions , my car 74B-U1 was advertised and sold by Frank Blanchard , after he purchased from Harry Stiller , and the Wentz car was advertised and sold by 'Planners International' , both advert's are in Autosport .

Bryan.

Bryan

I know of both those ads. What's to stop Mr Cutler being part of the marketing team at Planners International [the holding co for Wella]?

Was Blanchard part of the Stiller set up? Or did he buy the car from Stiller and then sell it on in Ireland? I have him entered in a 74B at the opening Atlantic race at Brands in 1975 but he doesn't show up.

What might be useful would be the phone number for Mr Cutler and the phone numbers for Stiller and Planners International.

Chris

Chris, the A/S adverts for the car are from some May-June 74 issues. So mid-season, when Wentz and the Stiller car are in the midst of the UK season. I'll try and get the 'fone no. from the advert later.

Chris,

74B-U1 , loaned by March and maintained by them for 1974 , sold via John MacDonald [ RAM Racing] at end of season to Harry Stiller , who then sold it on to Frank Blanchard who was to have Damien Magee drive but that didn't happen , so car then to Ireland to Gerry Kinnane [ driver Des Donnelly]for the 1975 season which from the results was none too flash.

If I had to make a stab at that car , how about the late season 1973 Bev Bond car that Harry Stiller couldn't remember where it went at end 1973 , but that car I think was also involved with John MacDonald. A few new body panels and hey presto 1974 model , or remove the chassis plate even , precious little difference 'tween a 73 and 74 March Atlantic apart from the stepped engine cover.

Bryan.

John Gillmeister and Derek Worthington both raced John Cutler's 74B in 1974

Thank's David
It's not a 74B unless it was another prototype car [U2]. It was probably a 73B rebuilt as a 74B. The car later went to Wes Dawn and is now in the USA, where rather confusingly it is said to have the tag 742-14. I wonder if that might not be a stamping on a replacement tub

Chris

never heard of tubs being stamped except am number

Nice one David! So that was the car entered by Prototype Tooling [Kent] Ltd and then sold mid-season to Gil Nickel Racing for Wes Dawn to drive.

Chris has it as a 73B but we don't know which one.

EDIT: Rats - I really must refresh before posting!

Drifty - by 1973, tubs were stamped with numbers that were similar to (and therefore possibly mistaken for) chassis numbers. We've had all sorts of 732 tub numbers quoted here.