March 722 - 732 - 742 - 752

Marches must be one of the most confusing cars,this is typical, a site advertising a 722 thats been rebuilt from a 76B,a 722 looks nothing like the 76 series http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/march/722-20/722-20ss.htm.Several March 74/75/76/77 bitsers were raced here in the Atlantic series.
The 2 722's that came here Ken Smith raced one,I'm sure it was sold to Aussie,the other was run by Frank Radisch with several different power plants,last time I saw it was around 1977 at Baypark running a libre race with a Mazda rotary motor.Ken Smith ran a 732 after the 722 and it went to Aussie to.

Armco

You're not kidding about Marches, though it may well be that underneath that particular 76B bodywork is a 722 tub.
Underneath several 73Bs - as built by March AS NEW CARS - were 712M tubs. Ray Mallock's had 712M-5 [ex Beuttler F2] and Sonny Rajah 712M-7 [ex Peterson F2]. We can only praise March for their early committment to recycling and ecological issues, but it's a nightmare for the historian.

This is not helped by drivers changing the identity of their cars whenever they modified them a bit. Howard Wood is described as racing a 75B in the '77 Tasman. Motoring News in UK said this was ex Val Musetti, meaning that underneath it all was either the ex Stan Matthews 73B [itself possibly built on a recycled 712M] or a 742 tub of indeterminate provenance. Does anyone know about the NZ history of this car?

Bryan

You are wonderful mine of information! I think we need to pace that one finger, and also not spoil me with too much history at once. I will try and find some more about Colin Simpson and his ownership of the car. I've got his purchase of the car from either Autosport or Motoring News, I'll have to check my notes.

The Musetti cars are a nightmare, since they were always described as being at least a model newer than they actually were. I know he ran 752-15 with a GAA V6 in the back in '76/77 [ex Walkinshaw and ex Kuwashima in F2] and that in 75 he had the Matthews 73B. By 76 he has two cars one described as a 75B and the other as a 742. I think the Matthews car is under the 75B and that a 732 tub features in the 742, but who really knows. Maybe I'll have to track him down. [Interesting guy, was a stunt driver for films who did the classic Mini sequence in the Italian Job.]

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
I know he ran 752-15 with a GAA V6 in the back in '76/77 [ex Walkinshaw and ex Kuwashima in F2] and that in 75 he had the Matthews 73B. By 76 he has two cars one described as a 75B and the other as a 742. I think the Matthews car is under the 75B and that a 732 tub features in the 742, but who really knows.

Chris, do you mean Stan Matthews?
He raced an Ensign and then a 73B in Atlantic under the Promoto racing banner.Both green and yellow in classic 'lotus' style.
My father was Stan's mechanic when he raced special saloons in 68/69 before he went to the JRRDS at Snetterton.
Now running a bar in Spain I believe. I have not seen him since '78 at Silverstone. He was pretty well off for an 18 year old when he first turned up at our house to look at the racing saloon Anglia my father spannered on and arrived in a Ferrari he had bought the day before from Peter Sellers.That turned a few heads on our council estate! His folks ran the Wicken Country Hotel near Silverstone. I remember going there as a kid when the GP was on and many of the F1 drivers stayed there.
Amon, McLaren, Gurney, Hill, Bonnier etc were all in the hotel bar so it was 'autograph book' heaven! Stan became quite good when he got to F3/Atlantic but I think the money ran out.

My Formula Collection starts with Feb 1975. However, in that copy (p14) I found:

On p18 I spotted Bruce Jensen and Reg Scullion in an Atlantic race at Watkins Glen in 742s, Fred Philips in James King's 73B and Roos in Grimaldi's 732. I think this race supported the US GP. And on p8: "Tom Sauerbrei ... will be in the ex Depailler March 742" in Atlantic in 1975. That might help plug a gap later.

Chris

Fred Opert advertises the Brown 74B (8 races from new) in June 1975. The full Edmonton grid is shown - there are 11 75Bs, two 73B and a 722.

Tell me to stop any time you like!

Allen

Full Westwood grid in August 1975 p26. Now 12 75Bs, one 73B and a 722.

I meant number 9 of course for the Bobby Brown car, my mistake!

I'd got Sauerbrei racing a 742 in SCCA. But not ANOTHER ex Depaillier.
That makes 4 and a quick scan of written off tubs in Depaillier's 74 season gives me two, plus an intact one at the end of the season, plus the spare that his contract insisted on [so that at Karlskoga March had to hire Obermoser's car back because they'd run out!] gives me
4 !!!
Isn't history marvellous. Of course F1R shows him as using the same car all season.
Although Sauerbrei's car could equally have been the 74B that ran at Trois Rivieres...

Does the Sanair picture of Jensen and Loring give us a clue to colour?

Mail me the Edmonton grid for starters! Just wish British mags had been as thorough.

Chris

Re the ex-NZ March 722
Two cars went to NZ at the end of 1972, the Sports Motors car, 722/1, which Gerry Birrell had been racing in F2, and 722/37, which Chris Oates had run in British FAt races.
The first was raced by Ken Smith in 1973, then sold less engine to Frank Radisich, who ran it first with a Repco V8 engine (1974-75) and then with a Mazda rotary (1976-77). Dave Saunders leased it for the 1978 NZ internationals, and ran it with a BDG engine, after which Radisich kept it as a fun car. It then passed through the hands of Dennis Dunbar, Charlie Conway and Adrian Whapman, who was advertising it for sale in 1994
Baron Robertson raced 722/37 in NZ then traded it in on an F5000 Elfin with Max Stewart, who ran the March for John Leffler in Australia in 1974. I don’t know what happened to it after that.

•732/9. Raced originally by Mike Beuttler for Brian Lewis Racing, then acquired by Andy Sutcliffe, who raced it from the Karlskoga round onwards. Ken Smith raced in NZ 1974, then sold to Ken Shirvington in Australia, who was still campaigning it it 1978

Originally posted by Chris Townsend

The Melville 76B is described by Motoring News as the car raced by Brambilla the previous year at Trois Rivieres.
Could be

The Howard Wood car: 742-1 according to F1R went to Japan, but they attribute 742-U1 to Musetti in 1976. This would tie in with my information that this was an ex Musetti car.
The Musetti connection certainly rings a bell with what the Wood brothers told me at the time

Hell this is going so fast so quickly,
March , Ian Grob in N.Z. Both cars tubs built up 1 for 1978 series , other not till 1980 in Australia .
Both cars have ch. pl. stamped as 77B C1 and C2 , being for Gary Clare who apparently drove the March spares van inU.K./Europe and did the deal with Ian Grob , so technically they are not true Marches .

A story connected with the C2 car was that it was ex James King tub , but I checked this with Duncan , and was advised that the King tub was 773-41 Lightweight, whereas the C2 tub is 773-66 ex no history.

For the record I am the Senior Historic Eligibility Officer for C.A.M.S in Oz , handling the post 1960 Racing and Sports Racing cars and have been for some years.

Just checked some of the asked questions.

Sonny Rajah ran in the Australian Van Heusen Formula Two Series in 1974 , note our F2 was restricted to Ford Twin cams , either on carbs or inj. The top guys all had alloy block Hart 416Bs . This series at the time was very competitive and until the Ralt R.T.4 Atlantic period, the closest we ever got to Euro F2. Rajah's car noted in Chequered Flag magazine as March 712M/732/7 ex 71 champ Ronnie Peterson, bought 72 by Rajah and updated to 73 specs. in England in 1973. To my knowledge the car left our shores never to return. Probably still lurking in S.E. Asia somewhere.

Baron Robertson March 722/34 is the number reported by Chequered Flag in 1974, but it could be that the 7 and 4 were mistaken as I have the car as 722/37. This car was run by the Late Max Stewart with Solo lemon drink sponorship , even at 1 meeting with a downdraught head on the twin cam
It then went to Victoria for Football Star, Paul Feltham, then ended up with Ed Flannery for at least 10 years. He died; car to wife; she died 12 months later and car now to niece/nephew who I can't find; have been trying for years. gr.gr.gr.gr.

Chris, the 74 March notes, you have all the info on the sheet, nothing held back .
Bobby Brown's 74B-9, I saw a note sometime in 74 Auosport saying this would be last race in U.K. as both driver and car returning to U.S.A.

Re. my 74B tub no. typo, should read 732-26, with either an 8 or a B stamped under that.

March 732/9 , here as ex Ken Smith , ex works renta car , drivers as Mike Beuttler and Andy Sutcliffe , purchased from March in August 1973 to Ken Smith .
Smith sold to Ken Shirvington , who still retains car to this day , although nobody has seen it , or the Lotus 20 he has had since 1965 , or the Toleman T.G.280 or the Lola T 400 all of which , plus who nows what else that he has hidden to keep away from ex wife and lawyers.
But the March has never surfaced.
March ex Andy Miedecke 763/77b 763/14 . Ispoke to Andy re. this along with Bruce Cary who helped bult it up .
This car still owned by Andy and is literally nailed to the wall at his Main Ford dealership at Port Macquarrie on the mid north coast of N.S.W. as I write, this info about 4 weeks old.

March 75B in Davids list of cars in N.Z. as 742-1, to Howard Wood, Reg Cook, John Grobbe 1982.
I had to do an eligibility inspection on an ex N.Z. March 742 in July 1977 which we declined to pass as the owner gave us basically no supporting evidence, and the car was soon after sold I believe to U.K. Europe .
N.Z. owners were called out as Ken Smith in 1993, to John Mackinlay 1994-5 then to B.M.W. dealer principle Mr.R Shield in Sydney, however car carried plate 742-U2.
Have we got another entity on our hands or is this 742-1 ??

Any takers on March 742-U2 ex. N.z. yet ?????????????

Bryan: Am thinking about your 742 and trying to track down Val Musetti. He still works in film business, and I can probably network him through my contacts.

Have you seen ref. to Alan Rollinson out and about in what was called 732 but actually ex. Coombes/Depailler 722 , which should give it -45. Note states had just been collected from works and called dev. car with side rads. , new nose and only March in F.A. upto current F2 spec.

Bryan

Agree about the Rollinson car based on 722-45
Also out there, though perhaps it's only tested and never raced is a 74B based on an ex Coulon 732 chassis. This is mentioned first as being sold to Mike Sullivan racing for Alan Jones, to go alongside their 712M/722, but then it mysteriously stays at March, because a few weeks later there's a piece about Johnny Nick testing it to see if it's more competitive than the Lyncar. [JN stuck with the Lyncar...]
If F1R is to be believed Coulon's cars in 73 were 732-7 and 732-12.
As F1R give 732-7 as Laurent Ferrier's car in F2 in 1976 the probability is that this was 732-12.

Another 712M in Atlantic in 74 is 712M-11. This appears for Richard Robinson and is described as ex Colin Andrews. Andrews's car in 73 Atlantic is described as a former Shell-Arnold car raced by Jaussaud, so probably 712M-11 as that seems to have been the chassis he raced most often. Robinson is entered by Mike Sullivan Racing, and I suspect that the 722 which they enter for Alan Jones and Richard Knight is probably this car.

Howard Rose: Goes on to race [or rather to not qualify for some races] in the 1977 ShellSport series. I noted the chassis number of his car in those races at the time, but, callow youth that I was, I never thought my records important and now don't know where they are. However, I do remember that the plate was that of a 753. So there are two Rose cars.

I have what is apparently all that exists of the March 1973 records for F2 ,
Bryan.

www.carclassic .com had for sale,

Marches ch.nos. 782-16
742-13
742-30
732-012
712M-6

March - one cute little number that ran in the Van Heusen series was Englisman, Ken Douglas, in a March733M/743/3, which later burnt to a crisp inc. trailer ot Oran Park as they were leaving the circuit.

Bryan

I would love to see the 732 records - if only to compare and contrast to the F1Register books. I'll leave the fax on. The heart is holding up. And thank you for confirming dates on AU1.

Chris

Chris , trust you rec,d. 732 fax.
Sorry it is not as comprehensive as Modus or 74B , however it is still interesting in 732-9/15 , and it looks like -11 did not make it to Japan as Bill Gubelman seems to have run it all season in F2.

In A/S. Sept. 5 1975 p.59 for sale column have you been able to put a no. or identity to Alan Rollinsons car.?
Is it a genuine 74B or a lash up .??????

Bryan

Rollinson's car is a lash up. Probably the ex Coombs 722-45, which he raced twice, otherwise the ex Coulon 74B. Rollinson actually retired in 74 after racing the Coombs car and realising he was on a hiding to nothing.

Some of the gaps on 732, though I await correction and addition:
1: Works Beltoise [Mallory]; Stuck; occasional spare for Jarier -> 1976 John Calvert, tub then to Geoff Friswell, written off in practice accident at Gold Cup meeting Sept 76, which I witnessed, and replaced with a 742 tub.

2: Not known either this or 3 is the Hiromu Tanaka car
3: Not known perhaps Tanaka
4: Brambilla brothers, kept by them at least till 76 and used as hire car for Italian F2 races
5: Brambilla bros 1975: Max Bonin [France] at least until 76
6: Works Jarier
7 Works Coulon. This number given to Laurent Ferrier's car in 77 by F1R
11 was kept by Gubelmann at least until mid 76. He had a big accident at the Mallory hairpin with Mike Wilds and received bad head injuries. I don't think he ever raced again, and I don't know what happened to the car. It was quite a low speed accident, so I doubt that it was destroyed in the shunt.
14: Wheatcroft for Roger Williamson. 1975: Luis de Almenara

Interesting that you have 12 as Joliat's car. F1R ascribe this to Coulon from mid season and put Joliat in 16

Brian

No, there was only one Ken Bailey, and the history works out. The Cyd Williams 722 is 722-39 and this number is noted by Motoring News on its debut in Atlantic, along with 722-37 which is raced by Chris Oates. 722-37 goes to Baron Robertson in 73 and then John Leffler. 39 is sold to Bailey who used in F.Atlantic in UK in 73. The car was then sold to a guy called Phil Dowell who was killed testing it at Silverstone pre-season in '74. I've always presumed that the car was destroyed in this accident.

So, Bailey's 73B is a genuine model, ex Charles Lucas '73 season. I got a bit thrown by the advert for a March 722 in 1974, because it's got Bailey's name on it. However, the phone number, when you look at other ads, proves to be that of Mike Sullivan Racing. Sullivan had been racing 712M-11 [ex Jaussaud, ex colin Andrews. for Richard Robinson and Alan Jones, though he took to calling it a "722"]. I presume that this is Sullivan trying to sell that car with a photograph of someone elses! [though it might be that Sullivan had also bought the wreck from Dowell's widow to use for parts.]

Sullivan was selling because he was meant to be getting a "74B" built out of one of JAcques Coulon's 732 tubs. However, according to race reports it was the 722 which finished the 74 season, so presumably the cheque bounced on the "74B".

Bailey sold his 73B to Andy Rouse halfway through the 74 season and took over the works development Lola T360. That's why you have two adverts using pictures of Bailey cars at the same time!

Chris

Chris, A/S JUNE 20 74 P.5 , Mike Sullivan, now has two 722 , one with Falconer bodywork and other with Latest March bodywork. One was to be driven by Aust. Driver Mike Knight on Alan Jones recc. to replace him in team .
Kevin, recd. info from one of his previous owners also advising that Kevin may bump into in Aust. ANOTHER of his ex March cars over here .
The owner was John Mackinlay , and he advised in letter on B.M.W. LETTERHEAD ON 14 MAY 2003 , that the other car was a 742 and he sold it to a chap from B.M.W. in Australia .
This is my query car re. 742-U2 .
Bryan.

Hi guys

Anyone have any history on tub number 732/15. Bryan has told me where it is today but I'd appreciate any pointers to where it might have been before 1978. Do the March records mentioned here contain any reference to it?

Thanks

Allen

Allen

If tub 732-15 is an equivalent to the chassis then this is a rebuild of Beuttler's 732-9 by Brian Lewis using the tub from what was intended to be 732-15 after Beuttler destroys chassis 9 at Rouen.

The complicating factor is that this may [allegedly] have subsequently been rebuilt as a 742 [10] for Heavens [the car raced by Antonio Prado in '75] Despite the fact that Jorg Obermoser has also got a 742-10 raced by Dave Walker and Harald Ertl in '74 which is a different car altogether.

Chris

A Question,What is the difference between a tub and a chassis?.Isn't the tub the chassis,or is the chassis the tub with wheels and gearbox?.

Armco, March has [should have] a chassis plate rivetted on to alloy panel, which will say ,E.G. 732-9 , which at that stage could have meant an F2 or an F/atlantic.
On a certain part of the car was also stampted a tub no. E.G. 732-6 .Sometimes these were the same , but only when new,and it did not take long for cars to get damaged , you then got a replacement tubE.G. 732-20 and slid it under your chassis plate and ended up with Chassis no.732-9 plate under tub 732-20 and went on your merry way till you stuffed it again .
In the meantime your original may have been repaired and was sitting at March or Thompson's all lost and lonely untill it went into service again this time in what used to be say, 732-32.
Then along come people like say Fred Smith and buy a rebuilt tub and parts and build the whole mess up in 1976 and people like Chris,Allen ,myself and various others go nuts trying to figure it all out.
Bryan.

So Marches,and most cars are like Grandpa's axe,7 new heads and 10 new handles,but still Grandpa's original.
So you can take the chassis plate and slap it on a new tub too,and still call it the original car as long as you have that original chassis plate?.

As this seems to be the Atlantic March thread, I thought I'd try this question here.

Thanks to the quite excellent Curt Bond, I now have full results from the 1974Van Heusen series and I'm trying to identify all the cars.

Ian Douglass's March. This is variously described as a 732, a 733 and a 743. Anyone know what it was?

Ian Douglass car was apparently a March 732 that was damaged at Amaroo in May, 1974. He then adapted 742 parts to the car. Later in the year it becomes known as a March 743, as far as i know he had the 1 car. The car was damaged at Oran park in 1975, put in the trailer, where it caught fire, and apparently the whole lot burnt to the ground in the Oran park pit area.

Curt

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
March one cute little number that ran in the Van Heusen series was Englisman Ken Douglas in a March733M/743/3 , which later burnt to a crisp inc. trailer ot Oran Park as they were leaving the circuit. I've found it now. Before posting, I had searched the thread for "Douglass" as Curt Bond, who supplied my results, had put the driver down as Ian Douglass in each case. I'll check with Curt about this - presumably RCN got it right originally.

Thanks for this.

Allen

Allen.
My mistake typo or something is Ian Douglas; I probably had Ken Smith on my mind at the time; my excuse anyway!

Hello Brian & co,
Ref my enquiry on the `March` thread about the two 742`s I have. I have spent most of today reading this thread & was suprised to see one of the cars in question mentioned. Seems there is a lot more information available than I ever imagined. If any of you can help to piece together some history of the cars it would be most helpful.
Brian, you know of one of the cars from the BMW Sydney connection. The numbers I have are on the plates `742-U1` and `742-U2`, monocoque numbers are `732-68` and `732-72`. Can`t remember which number is with which without looking at the cars, Strange I should have only 2 cars here with consecutive numbers ?
The `BMW Sydney` car (742-U2 I think....) was ex of NZ. The other car has never left the UK to my knowledge.
I assume this means both cars began life as 732`s? Is there any chance of finding information on either car ?
I was told when in NZ the car once used a Mazda rotary engine, i noticed that such a car was mentioned earlier in this thread. I do have a strange gearbox adapter that came with the car ??
My first love is old BMW touring cars, so I am starting from zero with this. Having read your posts, how does anybody know which car they have ??

Regards alex

The Robin Smith/Richard Jones March 742, which also ran in 78 Libre/Aurora? .

Chris

The Smith-Jones 742 was a scruffy old nail! It was 742-15 ex Trivatello car raced by Gabrielle Serblin in 74, a Trivatello spare for almost anyone with an Italian passport in '75 then sold to the incomparable betoupéed 'Gimax' [aka Carlo Franchi] before it reached the UK.

The Smith-Jones 742, yes it wasn't much of a 'looker'. As I recall it had a very home-made radiator in the front nose, nothing like as elegant as the 782 nose, but intended for the same effect I guess. About as well looked after as the infamous Carlo Giorgio car, a 732(?) that he updated thru the 70s, and still used in I think 79, up against much more modern cars. Still there were some very optimistic Italians in F2 in those days, and much the better the serries was for them !!

Dan

Carlo Giorgio's well used March was actually 742-28 which he bought new and flogged round Europe for at least 5 years without ever attaching mirrors...

Regarding Don Briedenbach"s March 75b, I own it not Seiniger. Don's car is 75B/4; Seiniger's is 752-38 or 36. I know this because Tim Fortner and I restored both cars and sold Seiniger his. His car is a bitsa put together in 1976 by Richard Paul's mechanic to run in FB in 1976 and has a F3 tub. Briendenbach has seen 75B/4 and recognised it as his car and I have the log book to prove it. I also own 722-6 which supposedly is Bob Lazier's car by hearsay.

Originally posted by allenbrown
Welcome Ken

Can you tell us who drove Don's car in 1976 and later seasons? Also, do you know who drove the bitsa in Formula Atlantic?

Allen I will have to go get the logbook to tell you for sure. I bought the car from Roger Downer in Petaluma, Ca in 2000 after it had sat used for ten years. He had put a iron BDG in it with carbs but never ran it to the best of my knowledge. As far as 752-36 is concerned it was only run in Cal Club in southern Ca and never ran Atlantic. It passed through sveral hands then sat in the south Bay area for years till I bought as a roller and then restored it.

Ken

I have a few questions about the bitsa built by Richard Paul.
Did the 752-36 or 38 plate come from March or was it a modification
of the 753 plate? Or was it the tub number?

The highest number 752 seen in Europe is in the low 20s and I'm puzzled if this is in continuity with the build records.

But thanks so much for your help on Briedenbach's car. Do you have any more history on 722-6 that might help us link it all the way through?

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Ken

I have a few questions about the bitsa built by Richard Paul.
Did the 752-36 or 38 plate come from March or was it a modification
of the 753 plate? Or was it the tub number?

The highest number 752 seen in Europe is in the low 20s and I'm puzzled if this is in continuity with the build records.

But thanks so much for your help on Briedenbach's car. Do you have any more history on 722-6 that might help us link it all the way through?

Chris Looking at my records 753-38 was stamped on the front bulkhead of Seiniger's car. Richard Paul owned it sold it to James Wood in 1978 then to Eric Steeg in 1987. I bought it from a body shop guy in 1997 or so and restored it correctly and sold it to Seiniger. He has the remainder of the records. 75B/4 Scca #33-862 was driven by Briendenbach but owned by Johnnie Crean or he was the owner before Briendenbach. Briendenbach sold the car to Jeff Alcana in 1976; then to Alan Holly in 1976, then to Steven Bremmer in 1978 running it to 1979 then Roger Downer had it from 1990 till I bought it in 2000 and restored it. 722/6 ran as a 75b in Cal club by George Seydell till 1979. I bought the car restored by Marc Bahner in 1992. He told me it was Lazier's car but has never found the original logbook and I wrote Lazier to confirm but he never replied. There are 5 722's on the West coast; 3 running as 722's and one as a 76. All the above info is from the logbooks. Ken Stone

Ken

722-6 was originally used in period [both 72 and 73 seasons] by Jean-Claude Favre, in Euro F2 and I guess the odd hillclimb.
Any idea when George Seydell got it?

Chris

I have Favre's 1973 car as 722/16

While we're on the subject of Marches again, our March "Atlantic", 742/88 has an odd SCCA number, 073. No prefix.
Has anyone any idea how and when it might have aquired it?



David.

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Ken

722-6 was originally used in period [both 72 and 73 seasons] by Jean-Claude Favre, in Euro F2 and I guess the odd hillclimb.
Any idea when George Seydell got it?

Chris I have no info as to how Seydell got the car. Tim Fortner reminded me that Chick Gladding was Richard Paul's mechanic and built 753-38 for him if that is of any help.

Dave

John Smith in N.Ireland currently owns 722-16 [according to Richard Young] and says it is the car he bought new from March in 1972.
Motoring News shows Beuttler as using that car at the first race that season but that wouldn't preclude it from Smith's ownership thereafter [or the plate being swapped.]

Chris

742-23 was also a Harper car in the MArch sales record, but F1R has it as Quester's.
Now what do we think of F1R!!?

This is probably the car that went to John Walker for F. Libre in 1976 as well - which was 'ex Purley'.

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
742-23 was also a Harper car in the MArch sales record, but F1R has it as Quester's.
Now what do we think of F1R!!? March sales records (as quoted by Adam on a TNF thread) also say 742-23 was Team Harper whose drivers that year were Questor and Purley. However, with no UK rounds that year, I have no contemporary source for 742 chassis numbers. F1R are all over the place on Team Harper's Marches. After just a few races that year they bought Chevrons instead. Coincidentally, I asked Rafa if he had anything on 1974 F2 earlier this morning.

Allen

Dan

The awful Multiglide March doesn't have Clarkson in its history.

Clarkson starts with 722-29 then sells that to MAthers. Goes on to what was probably 732-1.

The Multiglide car was originally a 712M. Colin Andrews had it before Mike Sullivan Racing ran it in 74 for a variety of bewildered souls and then it ended up with Norman Dickson. In Andrews' hands it's described as ex Jaussaud. However, if we look at race reports and the March sales records there was a deal of plate switching between certain cars at certain times.

Chris, thanks, I was confusing Clarkson completely. Apparently his 74 March F At was a 722, entered by Hurford Jones, the MultiGlide car was Richard Knight amongst others, I presume the Magnys Cours Racing school chap. is this the car Kim M had from about 75 to mid 77 then?

As I'm now (belatedly) registered on Ten Tenths, I thought I'd put in an appearance. The interest in my F.Atlantic notes just shows that schoolboy scribblings do sometimes come in handy.....even if it is 30 years later.

What I've given to Allen are photocopies of my contemporary notes in the programmes, so they should be reliable. However ocassionally it is perfectly possible that I misread a chassis plate in the gloom of a rainy Oulton Park paddock so if something in these notes doesn't fit with everything else known, let me know and I'll double check it.

Re. the March chassis records I think I have listed those of interest on various TNF threads.....

I have no F.Atlantic but I do have F2 for :-
1970
1971
1973 (incomplete)
1974
1975
1976 etc.

Dan

Brain fade in confusing Clarkson with John Calvert [it was he who owned 722-29 [from new] and 732-1. But Clarkson still no connection to the Mike Sullivan car's history.

Jones in a 74B in 1974 could be correct since he took over the Harry Stiller racing car later in the season.

A friend of mine has just "liberated" from a 20 year hibernation a couple of March 732s. The first car has stamped on the tub 732-57. A lot of the parts have 732-55 including the fuel cells,its complete minus engine and box. The second car is thought to be a 73A all we can find on it is AM73-48. The tub behind the seat has been cut away to give increased space in the engine bay. ANY CLUES ??

Ted,

The tub number is not necessarily equivalent to the chassis number even when it's stamped with a March build number. There were only 17 732s built of which one [15] was itself a rebuild of an earlier car and the car kept the older plate to help with paperwork at customs. Any chance of chipping some paint off to see what the original gel coat was? We do know the colours of all the 732s as built.

The one with the butchered engine compartment is interesting to me since I think that an ex Jarier 732 [the car bent at Thruxton] was treated in this way in 1973 to provide an entry for Ray Allen at the British GP when it was mooted that F5000s would be allowed to run with F1s. This car - Allen will correct me if I'm wrong - might well have ended up on the hills 74 - 76. Where abouts in the UK were these charming creatures in hibernation?

Chris

Chris . The original tub colour looks as though it was yellow . It seems very odd that most of the major bits are stamped 732-55 , including this No stencilled on the fuel bladders with an April 73 date. The second tub has not been buthchered as an after-thought but looks like it has always been like it.IVE MIS READ the AM No its a 75A not 73A its AM75-48 and the roll hoop has a f-glass panel built into it as the photo in the March Book

Chris.I think the 732 has been abroad France or Italy, as there is a lable on the dash saying "pompe". Both the cars have come from the Cambridge area where they have been with the same owner since the early 80s.

Ted,

A few comments on the two Marches.....

The 732...
As Chris says, a number such as 732-57 (or 55) does not necessarilly relate to the chassis number, and in this case I believe it does not.
The March records I hold show 17 732s being built, including one (732-15) which was was built by Brian Lewis, rather than by March. Unfortunately no tub numbers are shown on the list. As far as original colour is concerned, two chassis are shown as having been yellow : 732-9 which was written off by Beuttler, and 732-15 which was built in mid season by Brian Lewis for Andy Sutcliffe to race (and which carried the plate 732-9). Eight of the 17 chassis do not have a colour shown for them.

The "75A"
Originally the tub numbering "AM7x-xx" related, I think, to Arch Motors who made the space frames for the early (1970 etc.) cars. By 1975 the tubs for many models had model-specific numbers (such as 752-28), rather than the "AM" numbers which were a series for each year irrespective of model. In the March records which I have, only a very few tub/monocoque numbers are quoted for 1975.
AM75-46 was a 753 F3 car for Trivellato in Italy, delivered on 24 June 1975, and AM75-47 was also a 753 for Pavanello, delivered on 16th July 1975. As these tub numbers are normally chronological it would seem AM75-48 relates to a car built in July 1975 or later. In the list I have 752s, the 75A and the 751s do not use AM tub numbers.
In the list there was only one 75A built in 1975 (75A-1), and this had the tub number 752-29, presumably because the 75A was based on a 752 tub.
So a 75A with an "AM" tub number doesn't quite fit.

Hope this helps,

ADAM

Originally posted by Ted Walker
The original tub colour looks as though it was yellow . It seems very odd that most of the major bits are stamped 732-55 , including this No stencilled on the fuel bladders with an April 73 date. I just bought Motoring News for 1975 and there are some very high 732 numbers appearing on the back of F2 grids that year. I'll find them again.

Originally posted by Ted Walker
IVE MIS READ the AM No its a 75A not 73A its AM75-48 and the roll hoop has a f-glass panel built into it as the photo in the March Book That's still a F5000. Which picture in which March book?

Allen 2 men and a Ferret or something like that.I am trying to find out where the previous owner got them from, It will have to wait until Monday now as Im off to the HSCC Super Prix.The 75A has special engine frames as well. No chance of it being a 751?????????

732-9 [and its rebuild 15] seem to be the only yellow 732s. There is a car with that plate which goes to NZ in 1974 for Ken Smith and which seems to stay down under.
So it isn't likely to be that one.

I do remember that 732-10 [which started life as a Jarier works car, so STP red] was painted yellow by the time it ran in F2 in 1975. [There's a colour picture of it, driven by Prado at the Silverstone race, in Motorsport.] By which point it had also been rebuilt as a 742. However, I thought that this car was offered for sale a few years as a complete restored item. So I'm confused!

Like the others I'm also bemused by the 75A. My thought was that it might be an ex Guy Edwards tub built to take the GAA engine, but if as Adam says the 75A didn't get built at Arch Motors then...

On the 75A point, wasn't there only one ever made, the RAM/Jones car from 75. I think the Lawrence book says this was built on a 751 tub, not a 752 one. After 75, Magee/RAM had it in 76, Edwards in 77, all the time with the GA motor. At end of 77, Edwards puts a DFV back in it, so I suppose it reverts to a 'real' 751. He used it into 78 in Aurora, Bruce Allison also on occasion, and thenIIRC it went hillclimbing/sprinting, with Terry Smith ???

The other F5000 March 75, was 'Snappy Tom's' ex-Kuwashima 752 GA. Musetti gets this in mid-76, and used it thru' 77, still with the GA. In 78 he also puts a DFV in it, didn't he write it off in about mid-78. No idea after that.

Btw, we are well off B29s now, can we re-name this thread or something !! (er, yes but it has taken nearly 2 years! - JT)

Ted - does your "75A" have any recent Australian history? If it does, Bryan and I might be able to help.

Ken Smiths 732-BD(G?) was run for the summer of 74 (Tasman) then went to australia for the Winter where it was fitted with a 1600 twin cam for the van huesen series. It was later sold to Ken Shrivington. Richard carter later (until last year) had a 732-BDA in historic events but I don't know if this was the ex Smith car.

I understand (probably from this very thread) that Shirvington still owns the ex-Smith 732

David,

Correct , Ken Smiths car was 732-9/15 which came to Australia and was campaigned by Ken Shirvinton and he retains to this day.

Re the 75A , if it does have Australian recent history I may be able to assist.

Bryan.

Dan,

In answer to your comment about this thread being well off course , yes it has been since page 1, when as a newcomer and not being aware of the correct etiquette, I posted March 74B stuff on the poor old Chevron thread , apologies to all. However as it is off course lets keep it there.(Sorted - see my earlier note! - JT)

About 6 weeks ago I rec'd from the guys at March Ives in the U.S.A. a copy of the Factory March drawing register and some drawings I needed for the rear wing etc.for 742 and 74B series cars.

To my surprise the 742 cars have bag tank number drawings as part no. 732-15-01 L.H. and 732-15-02 R.H. specified for BMW and Hart engines.
The 74B cars part numbers are 73B-15-01 L.H. and 73B-15-02 R.H for the BDA and Twin Cam cars.

I went and checked my tanks straight away and mine are stencilled as per the 742 cars , and dated Jan. 1973 , however no tub number stencilled on them.

The 12 month earlier than car build date of the tanks is probably easily explained by March purchasing in bulk.
But why does my car have 742 tanks in a 74B , as I presume , but ready to be corrected , that the capacity required for the F2 cars would have been larger than F/A cars.

75B-8 is in Australia , but was re-tubbed in 1977/8 so am no use in ascertaining if it had an AM number.

My car doesn't have any indication of an AM number , where was this stamped.?? In the usual place as part of the Tub number under the LHS roll over bar pick-up ?? or was it on the engine frame somewhere?? or was this only on later cars??

I think I am trying to say that ANYTHING could happen at March and we will have a hell of a job even sorting some bits out, for instance my car may even be a re-constituted F2 wreck from 73 , built up and sold as a new 74B , we haven't a hope of finding out, without having a list [ if it exists ] of chassis number with corresponding tub numbers.

Bryan.

Roger,

No , in the U.K. Brett ran an F3 773 sponsored by a rock group STARZ , at the end of the year he obtained the Atlantic car ,Kevin believes out the back door.

Bryan.

Brett's 773 [or one of them, since I think he ran more than one]
was 773-10

Chris

Riley started 1977 with Starz backing, then switched to the Dave Price team, possibly (though not certainly) with the same 773
And, as Bryan says, the 77B was something else again

David

Wasn't Brett R connected with that disasterous AFMP/March thing that year, along with Giacomelli, Pati, Colombo,Piquet, Kennedy etc etc ???

I can't be certain where to post this so I suppose this thread is best.

I found this in a newly acquired Motoring News and it might connect up some Marchs.

Motoring News 12 May 1977 p22: Paul Gardner has the ex-Steve Choularton March 73B for Libre racing. It is now to 742 spec but will have 752 bodywork.

His team-mate will be John Walker who has the "ex-David Purley/Graham Perry (Harrison) Atlantic engined March 742".

I hope that is useful.

Allen

Allen

Knew about the John Walker car, which was chassis 23 [Once I got over the possibility that it was Purley's 722 that Perry raced]. He had that in 76 as well. The Gardner info is new. I think that Choularton may have kept the car for a couple of years rather than selling it in 74.

Chris

Anthony Hansford raced the "ex Choularton/Crawford" 73B as a 732 (with STP livery and a Cosworth BDG!) in HSCC and occasional BOSS events around 95-98. Since he races an Arrows/Footwork now, not sure if he still has the March.

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Also have you seen ref. to Alan Rollinson out and about in what was called 732 but actually ex. Coombes/Depailler 722 , which should give it -45. Note states had just been collected from works and called dev. car with side rads. , new nose and only March in F.A. upto current F2 spec.

Bryan

I've just been going through some 1973 Autosports for a completely unrelated reason and came across an ad in the May 24th edition (page 70) for March 722/24 (not -45), advertised by John Coombs (sic) of Guildford and described as ex-Patrick Depailler. It has FT200 box, full-width nose and front rads, but the original nose and side rads were also available.

Don't know if this helps!

Michael

Michael

I'll have to look at the ad to refresh my memory, but I don't think that 722-24 was ever a Coombs car. It's noted on a plate on Bill Gubelman's car in 1972 British Atlantic [won the championship]. Press reports have that car sold in late 72 to Jack Patterson [sponsored by Texaco, run by Renoir Racing]. He kept the car for a number of years and Adam Ferrington noted the plate still on the car in 1973. The update sounds as though it may be the modified version of the Gubelman car, for sale perhaps because Paterson was looking at a new car. Maybe Coombs was acting as an agent. In the end he sold it late 1974 to Roy Baker, who ran it 1975, before replacing it with the ex Derek Cook 75B prototype.

If it is 722-24, I'm sure it wasn't a Coombs team car in 1972, and it can't have been the ex Coombs car for Rollinson. That was a confection of the wonderful Jock Santos in 1974 and was meant to appear while 722-24 was definitely still racing in the hands of Patterson.

Chris

Chris, that Patterson chap, is that 'Jas Patterson' rather than Jack Paterson. I recall the former in F At, the latter in a S2000 Royale at one point.

It was definitely Jas Patterson who bought the Gubelmann 722. I saw the car in 1973 too, with 732/73B bodywork.

Apologies, got my Pattersons in a twist!
Jas - March 722-73B [Renoir International Racing]
Jack - Wimhurst in Atlantic at much the same time

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Michael

I'll have to look at the ad to refresh my memory, but I don't think that 722-24 was ever a Coombs car. It's noted on a plate on Bill Gubelman's car in 1972 British Atlantic [won the championship]. Press reports have that car sold in late 72 to Jack Patterson [sponsored by Texaco, run by Renoir Racing]. He kept the car for a number of years and Adam Ferrington noted the plate still on the car in 1973. The update sounds as though it may be the modified version of the Gubelman car, for sale perhaps because Paterson was looking at a new car. Maybe Coombs was acting as an agent. In the end he sold it late 1974 to Roy Baker, who ran it 1975, before replacing it with the ex Derek Cook 75B prototype.

If it is 722-24, I'm sure it wasn't a Coombs team car in 1972, and it can't have been the ex Coombs car for Rollinson. That was a confection of the wonderful Jock Santos in 1974 and was meant to appear while 722-24 was definitely still racing in the hands of Patterson.

Chris

The May ad sounds as if it is a follow-up to one which ran in Autosport 8/2/73 p60 - maybe they thought they had sold the pair and then one of them fell through. The full text of the Feb ad is as follows:

March 722 F2 Cars

Two 1972 Elf-Coombe(sic) F2 cars are offered for sale as rolling chassis units, including FT200 gearbox. One front radiator car with full width nose (parts for reconversion if required) and one conventional side radiator car. Both extensively rebuilt and checked and in immaculate condition. Spare wheels and other accessories available as required. Offers to John Coombe(sic) with a Guildford address and phone number.

The May ad reads as follows:

March 722/24

Ex-Patrick Depailler rolling chassis and FT200 gearbox with full-width nose and front radiators. Original nose and side radiators available. Fitted with 10s and 14s. Assorted spares also available. Offers please. John Coombs on a Guildford number.

So it sounds to me as if they sold the car with the conventional nose but still had the full-width nose car available. The ad is very clear about the car being ex-Depailler and 722/24, so I'm not sure where this leaves us! Perhaps the ex-Depailler bit is right but the chassis number quoted is incorrect. Don't know if ads were taken down on the phone or scrawled in handwriting but it could have been another number that sounded similar, e.g. 34 or 44 even? Any Coombs cars of those numbers?

Cheers

Michael

The Coombs cars in 1972 seem to be:

Chassis 4: Used by Jabouille, sold to Ron Courtney in N.Ireland in 1973

Chassis 15: Used by Adrian Wilkins. Don't know where this went

Chassis 45: Used by Depaillier.

These numbers are given by F1R but are also noted in both Autosport and Motoring News. [1971 is one year where I've double checked every race in F1R against contemporary records] However, no one gives numbers at every race and there might well have been another Coombs car

Given that we know 24 to have been elsewhere, with continuous history, I don't think this is that car, but it could well be a misprint for another number. [It could even be a misprint for 4 which would be the easy solution] We don't know who had 722s 20 - 29 except for 20 [Keeler]; 23 [Folland]; 24 [Gubelmann]; 28 [Shell Arnold] and 29 [Calvert]

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
The Coombs cars in 1972 seem to be:

Chassis 4: Used by Jabouille, sold to Ron Courtney in N.Ireland in 1973

Chassis 15: Used by Adrian Wilkins. Don't know where this went

Chassis 45: Used by Depaillier.

These numbers are given by F1R but are also noted in both Autosport and Motoring News. [1971 is one year where I've double checked every race in F1R against contemporary records] However, no one gives numbers at every race and there might well have been another Coombs car

Given that we know 24 to have been elsewhere, with continuous history, I don't think this is that car, but it could well be a misprint for another number. [It could even be a misprint for 4 which would be the easy solution] We don't know who had 722s 20 - 29 except for 20 [Keeler]; 23 [Folland]; 24 [Gubelmann]; 28 [Shell Arnold] and 29 [Calvert]

Chris

Chris

Well, we know it is, according to the ad, ex-Depailler, so that would point to 772-45. Don't know quite how that gets transposed to -24 but there you go, I agree it is unlikely to be -24 given what you have said. Do you have pictures or anecdotal evidence of the Ron Courtney car, e.g. did it have side rads and original nose or front rads with full-width nose? Also, any approx date when he bought the car, as there was quite a time lag between the two ads?

Do you know where -45 ended up and was this a front-rad car as described in the ad?

Cheers

Michael

Michael

What I was thinking was that Coombs might have had a fourth car, number never noted in period, from the range of chassis where we don't know the original owner, [for example chassis 25] and that Depaillier might have driven this in addition to 45, which seems to have been the last 722 built. It appears first at Rouen 30.6.72 along with Williamson's 722-41, which we have confirmed as a chassis no, from other sources. Just a thought that the Coombs car might have been 722-42 [which then gives 24 as an easy misprint!]

The next reference I have for "45" is that an ex Depaillier 722 is being rebuilt for Alan Rollinson to run F.Atlantic in 1974. There is no chassis number attached to the report, and by that time the car would have been to 74B spec I guess, with full width nose, but side rads.
Rollinson is entered in a 'March' at Oulton, 5.5.74 but DNA
Qualifies 20th at Silverstone 12.5.74 where the car is described is 'ex Coombs/Depaillier', result not known
I don't have any other record of the car appearing with Rollinson, nor anything which might be that car in the hands of another driver.
[However, I am somewhat shy of programmes and race result sheets for mid season 74, so he may have carried on for a while. If someone out there has the British GP programme for 74 they could tell us whether or not he at least entered the Atlantic support race.] Some photos from Atlantic would also be great, I can scan and return!

Chris

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Michael

What I was thinking was that Coombs might have had a fourth car, number never noted in period, from the range of chassis where we don't know the original owner, [for example chassis 25] and that Depaillier might have driven this in addition to 45, which seems to have been the last 722 built. It appears first at Rouen 30.6.72 along with Williamson's 722-41, which we have confirmed as a chassis no, from other sources. Just a thought that the Coombs car might have been 722-42 [which then gives 24 as an easy misprint!]

The next reference I have for "45" is that an ex Depaillier 722 is being rebuilt for Alan Rollinson to run F.Atlantic in 1974. There is no chassis number attached to the report, and by that time the car would have been to 74B spec I guess, with full width nose, but side rads.
Rollinson is entered in a 'March' at Oulton, 5.5.74 but DNA
Qualifies 20th at Silverstone 12.5.74 where the car is described is 'ex Coombs/Depaillier', result not known
I don't have any other record of the car appearing with Rollinson, nor anything which might be that car in the hands of another driver.
[However, I am somewhat shy of programmes and race result sheets for mid season 74, so he may have carried on for a while. If someone out there has the British GP programme for 74 they could tell us whether or not he at least entered the Atlantic support race.] Some photos from Atlantic would also be great, I can scan and return!

Chris

I hear what you are saying - it is possible that it could be something like 722-42.

Did you have a date for when Ron Courtney bought his car maybe that was driven at some point by Depailler too? 722-4 to 722-24 is an easy typo too...

Is John Coombs still around? ISTR he lives in Monaco, doesn't he own a D-type that ran there in the historics a few years ago? Anybody with any contact details perchance?!

Michael

Bryan

I agree it is odd, and have been puzzling over it since Adam published that information.
The U1 suffix on the plate simply means [I think] that it is a hors series development model. [There were often two of these, U1 and U2 for any works build run] One of Musetti's cars may have been 742-U1, but I'm beginning to think he just had a 742 tub and the actual plates, which probably were not attached to the cars, were for two far earlier models.

British teams often ended up with the U cars because they were cheap ways of getting a new car, since the works had already had considerable mileage out of them. [Both the kosher March 75Bs that appear in Britain, for example, are U cars - Derek Cook and Ray Mallock]

Chris

Dan
Mallock began with 742-12 in 1975, ex Jacques Coulon
However, when everyone managed to hit poor Peter Williams in the Thruxton chicane in the F2 race it didn't do the car much good.
A new car was built up around 75B-U1 though whether or not it kept the 742-12 plate for carnet purposes is a moot point.
There is actually a letter in Autosport from one of Mallock's helpers explaining this situation later in 75, because the car is mis-identified.

Chris

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

The Coombs cars in 1972 seem to be:

Chassis 4: Used by Jabouille, sold to Ron Courtney in N.Ireland in 1973

Chris

He didn't hang on to it for long then, did he, as I am looking at a copy of an ad for the car in the Aug 9th 1973 edition of Autosport? Interestingly, it is described in Courtney's ad as being ex-Francois Cevert and the pic of the car shown is of Cevert at Thruxton 1972, car no 44.

Just one other thought re 722s: I know that a 722 tub was used as the basis for Mike Beuttler's 721G F1 car, do you know which one, or was it just a spare, un-numbered tub? Same question, I guess, for the cars raced later in 1972 by Peterson and Lauda...

Just one other thought re 722s: I know that a 722 tub was used as the basis for Mike Beuttler's 721G F1 car, do you know which one, or was it just a spare, un-numbered tub? Same question, I guess, for the cars raced later in 1972 by Peterson and Lauda...And the Formula 5000 725 too.

Allen

Michael

What I was thinking was that Coombs might have had a fourth car, number never noted in period, from the range of chassis where we don't know the original owner, [for example chassis 25] and that Depaillier might have driven this in addition to 45, which seems to have been the last 722 built. It appears first at Rouen 30.6.72 along with Williamson's 722-41, which we have confirmed as a chassis no, from other sources. Just a thought that the Coombs car might have been 722-42 [which then gives 24 as an easy misprint!]

The next reference I have for "45" is that an ex Depaillier 722 is being rebuilt for Alan Rollinson to run F.Atlantic in 1974. There is no chassis number attached to the report, and by that time the car would have been to 74B spec I guess, with full width nose, but side rads.
Rollinson is entered in a 'March' at Oulton, 5.5.74 but DNA
Qualifies 20th at Silverstone 12.5.74 where the car is described is 'ex Coombs/Depaillier', result not known
I don't have any other record of the car appearing with Rollinson, nor anything which might be that car in the hands of another driver.
[However, I am somewhat shy of programmes and race result sheets for mid season 74, so he may have carried on for a while. If someone out there has the British GP programme for 74 they could tell us whether or not he at least entered the Atlantic support race.] Some photos from Atlantic would also be great, I can scan and return!

Chris

Hi Chris

I'm sure you've already got this but just in case:

722/41 was advertised by David Lambe AS 18/10/73 p57 as ex-Williamson/Patsy McGarrity.

On facing page (e.g. 56) is an ad for GRD 273 F2 car (two races from new) with a Leicester number. Would this be another ex-Williamson car, possibly being sold by Wheatcroft? I know he had a GRD initially, didn't he and then switched to a March?

On same page, Stan Mathews Racing are advertising his March 73B (only two months old) so an August 73-ish build. Again don't know if it helps!?

I was in Germany last week and saw a March 732 with an odd chassis plate. The plate number is 732-084. I lifted off the roll over bar and took a look at the number stamped into the tub, it was also 732-084. The plate looks like every other March plate I've seen, the car is definatly all March and looks original.
Any idea how this car came to be?
Are there any records showing tub number 732-084?
Jim Keller

The May ad sounds as if it is a follow-up to one which ran in Autosport 8/2/73 p60 - maybe they thought they had sold the pair and then one of them fell through. The full text of the Feb ad is as follows:

March 722 F2 Cars

Two 1972 Elf-Coombe(sic) F2 cars are offered for sale as rolling chassis units, including FT200 gearbox. One front radiator car with full width nose (parts for reconversion if required) and one conventional side radiator car. Both extensively rebuilt and checked and in immaculate condition. Spare wheels and other accessories available as required. Offers to John Coombe(sic) with a Guildford address and phone number.

The May ad reads as follows:

March 722/24

Ex-Patrick Depailler rolling chassis and FT200 gearbox with full-width nose and front radiators. Original nose and side radiators available. Fitted with 10s and 14s. Assorted spares also available. Offers please. John Coombs on a Guildford number.

So it sounds to me as if they sold the car with the conventional nose but still had the full-width nose car available. The ad is very clear about the car being ex-Depailler and 722/24, so I'm not sure where this leaves us! Perhaps the ex-Depailler bit is right but the chassis number quoted is incorrect. Don't know if ads were taken down on the phone or scrawled in handwriting but it could have been another number that sounded similar, e.g. 34 or 44 even? Any Coombs cars of those numbers?

Cheers

Michael

Chris et al

Just to note that John Coombs ran the same ad for March 722/24 in the October 25th 1973 edition of Autosport, p56. Although it was exactly the same wording, I would have thought that if the chassis number had been incorrect in the May ad, they would have changed it for the October one?

I know that you have already identified 722/24 as a car raced by Bill Gubelmann in FAtlantic. Is this perhaps a situation where one car could have had a frame number and the other a tub number, both the same? I still think something is not right here but I'm not sure what...

Jim,
Re your March sighting , I reckon that the plate is non original , and somebody at some time had the car and the chassis plate was missing , and found the tub number and made a new plate with the tub number as the chassis no. not knowing or caring that these two numbers never were the same , my 74B-12 is on tub 732-026 , and I am sure all the F3 cars used the same tubs as well .
If we knew the history of the car , maybe we could figure it all out.

Regards Bryan.

I thought I'd rescue these March 742 details from TNF and post them where they belong:

Originally posted by Adam F
I have some information from the March factory records :-

1974 F2 sales list
Note:- in some cases this lists the country agent (eg Trivellato for Italy) rather than the final team.

1 Japan Red
2 Japan Bright Blue
3 Obermoser White
4 Japan Red
5 Japan White
6 Japan White
7 Trivellato White
8 Trivellato Red
9 Kuwashima Black
10 Obermoser Blue
11 Obermoser White
12 Antar Red
13 Maublanc Bright Blue
14 Maublanc White (Schnitzer)
15 Trivellato Yellow
16 Maublanc White (Schnitzer)
17 Jagermeister Orange
18 ELF Black
19 B.P. (Lafitte) White
20 Trivellato Red
21 Trivellato Red
22 Trivellato Red
23 Harper White
24 B.P. White
25 Harper White
26 Trivellato White
27 Moser White/Orange
28 Jolly Club White (Ford/Holbay)
29 (no customer listed) White
30 Bang & Olufsen White/Red

Other notes (from sporadic records)
5 "reported driven by Vonlanthen at Estoril"
8 "painted orange by Scuderia del Passatore" "raced by Giancarlo Martini"
12 "raced by Jacques Coulon", "Feb 75 converted to F. Atlantic became 75B-U1"
17 "raced by Hans Stuck as Jagermeister works car"
18 "Used by Patrick Depailler to win 1974 F2 Championship", "Nov 75 sold to Maublanc"
21 "driven by Truffo at Estoril March 75"
24 "rebodied with green & yellow special body" "Raced in 1974 by Laffitte" "1975 sold to Siegrist - repainted blue & white"
26 "24 March 75 Turizio - Scuderia Vesuvio"
27 "built for Silvio Moser but never raced by him" "1975 White & gold - Loris Kessel"
28 "raced 1974 and early 1975 by Carlo Giorgio"
30 "used as spare car 1975
U1 "spare (works) team car in black & blue Elf colours" "Dec 1975 sold to David Franklin"

And also this, from TNF again:

Originally posted by starlet
For the anecdote, and if I 'm right, there was an ex works 732 s/n 10, that has been upgraded in '74 specifications for the Brian Lewis Racing, and renumbered by March in 742/10B, as the 742/10 existed already.
The car was entered for Vittorio Brambilla in 1974.

And then this, taken from http://www.carclassic.com/stock.asp?StockID=102176.

Classic Car Collection's March 732/10
Chassis 732 / 10. Great car with great history: It raced in 1973 with the former Monaco F1 winner Jean-Pierre Beltoise and won the 1974 European championship with the former F1 Racer Patrick Depailler. March 732 are almost the same as 712 and 722. In 1974 all cars were modified by factory to 742 specifications with F1 front wing, 2 side water radiators, new suspensions and brake scoops. During 1974 season, March’s where so quick that they won all races but 1. The engine is a fuel injected Ford BDG, fully restored by Richardson and showing 296 bhp on dynotester. The gearbox is the standard Hewland FT200. This car has been fully restored with no matter of costs in 1996, then sold to current owner who has completed a detailled check-up and only raced 4 times in total during 2002 season. A large service has just been completed in 2004. The clutch is 0 miles and all safety elements have 2004 labels. The engine has completed a total of 2,800 km from Richardson rebuild. This car comes with FIA papers, it is a very quick car as the previous owner, Ludovic Caron, won 5 races and 9 pole positions from 1998 to 2000. This is certainly the very best of all the March 712 / 722 / 732 / 742 to collect.If we ignore the "misunderstanding" about it being the 1974 title winner, it is a 742 and it is ex-Depailler so it does help explain why there were so many ex-Depailler 742s around in 1975.

The chassis plate is shown on the web site and is worth a look - at least for compariso with other March chassis plates you may have seen ;)

Allen

I sometimes wonder if a car entering the March workshops for a rebuild ever left bearing the chassis plate it came in with...

Chassis 18 is now in the USA, where it was used in SCCA from 1978. So ex Depaillier? The gel coat is orange... Stuck orange.

I would, incidentally be suspicious of the claims for Depaillier having used a Brian Lewis car to compete in the 1974 European championship. Sutcliffe and Brambilla use 732-10 rebuilt, used by both Jarier and Beltoise in 73. But why would Depaillier want it in 74?

Chris

I would, incidentally be suspicious of the claims for Depaillier having used a Brian Lewis car to compete in the 1974 European championship. 'Suspicious' is a very polite word. I refered to it as a 'misunderstanding'. The spell-checker objects to all the better words, like the one that rhymes with rowlocks. Maybe a smilie says it best: :rofl:

Allen

Allen/Chris, was -28 the one Carlo Giorgio used right up to '79, variously updated ? I presume either -23or -25 is the one Ian Jacobs now has, ie ex-Harper/Purley.

Dan

Yup 28 was Giorgio's car
Do you know more about the back history of Ian Jacobs's car? I can get 23 as far as 1976 with John Walker, but know nada about 25.

Chris

Don't want to muddy the water here chaps (honest), but Motor Sport this month says (or at least implies) that Jacobs car is chassis 30.

"The March 742 in which David Purley start the 1974 European F2 championship is back in Britain in the hands on Ian Jacobs....Purley only raced chassis 30 a couple of times before switching to a Chevron"

Goes on to say Jacobs got the car from Alain Prat, after it had spent most of it's life in French hillclimbs.

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

772P-U2 was, I'm pretty sure, the 2nd 'real' 772P built. Only used once in 77 by the works, for marc Surer at the October Donny meeting. -U1 was the regular car used by Neve, then Ribeiro, Mass and Bruno.

For 1978 -U1 goes to Norman D for F2/Libre/Aurora, then into the Scottish Libre/Climbing scene. -U2 goes to Patsy McG for Irish FAt, then Kim Mather for Aurora. Kim says he's recently seen it adverted in the UK.

772P-U2 was, I'm pretty sure, the 2nd 'real' 772P built. Only used once in 77 by the works, for marc Surer at the October Donny meeting. -U1 was the regular car used by Neve, then Ribeiro, Mass and Bruno.
For 1978 -U1 goes to Norman D for F2/Libre/Aurora, then into the Scottish Libre/Climbing scene. -U2 goes to Patsy McG for Irish FAt, then Kim Mather for Aurora. Kim says he's recently seen it adverted in the UK.

I wasn't aware Jonathan Varley was selling -U2, I was chatting to him at the week-end and he never mentioned he was selling. Are you sure it wasn't -U1 that was for sale?

:)

Steve, Kim just said he'd seen 'my old March' advertised, I presume he meant his 772P, which was -U2.

Autosport 6 Sep 1979 p54: Tony Westwood was out at Prescott in his ex-Godfrey Crompton March 77P. 772P?

And more on 722-29: Autosport 30 Aug 1979 p47 says of the March 722 of Peter Riley (Liverpool) that he "took delivery of the ex-John Calvert Formula Atlantic March from John Kitching and has been very successful in it over the last two seasons".

Might that be the John Kitchen [sp?] who I have sprinting a 722 in 1974 and which I thought might be the ex Mather/Calvert car because it was in teh NW?

chris

I thought I'd rescue these March 742 details from TNF and post them where they belong:

...
Other notes (from sporadic records)
...
U1 "spare (works) team car in black & blue Elf colours" "Dec 1975 sold to David Franklin" Autosport 13 Sep 1979 p39 says the ex-Franklin/Richards March 742/772 is now being hillclimbed by Norrie Galbraith.

But we have 742/U1 as the Howard Wood ex-Musetti car in NZ in 1977. Even having 742/U1 as a Musetti car disagrees with this. Which identity can we trust? Neither of them?

Allen

Norrie Galbraith told MN in 1980 that his car was the ex Depaillier car, engine and everything [despite Franklin having bought it as a roller, and not being a BMW and all...] But anyway, think this was main as the real Depaillier car is elsewhere [California]

Don't believe Musetti car was a 742 but a mod'd 732 tub stuck into an Atlantic set up

Chris

So should I take "U1" off the Howard Wood car until we know more?

catching up omn this thread
742u1 is being restored via me and is listed in single seater voiturette book as Val M at a 74 or 5 uk race

772p u2 is allegedely in canada being restored he bought it as a basket case
772p u is in uk with john holmes

742 30 is now owned by mark dwyer from jacobs
this car wa srun by Berndard de dryver
i was with the carand owner talking at BH festival and this man came over and said this is my old car and i said u must be B de Dryver he was a bit stunned !!:cool:

Hi Drifty

What history do you have on that 742-U1? It looks like there were two cars with that number applied to them at one time or another.

Allen

some how this march thread has had my info deleted from it when it was re posted
car was reskinned tub by Graham thurston and sold with new bodywork to current owner long time back
i cannot tell you wher it came rfrm with out reffering to my mails on other pc
also have 742 u2 car in same stable had 752 body & bmw in it car came in from bmw dealer showroom in Oz 10 years ago

Have some more information on the Roger Orgee "772"
An ad for the car in A/S late 1979 says it was built in 1978 on a new tub.
As the car is described by Orgee in 1979 programmes as a "742/772P" I'm
guessing it was a new 742 tub - though we might want to speculate how new
that tub was in view of our knowledge of March's recycling practices - clad in
772P bodywork.

Would it have ever carried a plate? I rather doubt it.

ChrisChris, I think we've speculated on this one before, IIRC the Orgee car had Friswell connexions, though it looked like a 77B/772P. In 1980 he described his car, presumably the same one, as a '782', and then a '79B'. I don't recall reading anywhere that he'd got a new car over the 79-80 winter, so I suspect it was the same one he'd had in '79, ie the 742/77B/772P/whatever (!!).Dan
The Friswell connection was the engine, according to a little Autosport piece in June 79. Originally a Geoff Richardson BD series.

ChrisChris

I think Dan could be right here. An article on Sports Extra 5 Jul 1979 p52 calls the car "ex-Friswell" and "742/772P", adding that the engine that came with it was a 2-litre FVD which has now been replaced with a Richardson BDA.

So does mean this is the ex-Beltoise/ex-Calvert 732 [01] which got a replacement 742 tub late 1976 after Friswell crashed it in practice at Oulton Park? Or is it the 73B that Friswell drove in 1973 and 1974 and I can last see in 1976 as Barton's "73B/75B". I'm guessing it must be the former.

Allen

Confused? you soon will be !!
a 74 tub is the 772p narrow tub
772 is wide tub and not competitive so bmw spat the dummy out at march to fix the problem hence the narrow tub being brought back into service

however when u look at march tubs the 772P had an angle on the tub towards the front bulkhead which is used on the atlantic tub allegedly

front rear bulheads are different for f1 2 3 5000 cars due to different engine bulkheads/ pick up points and suspension points/ strengths required

Right. So - just to show whether I'm paying attention - 742/772P would make sense as a designation but 742/772 wouldn't?

Please excuse me dumping this here but I've been searching high and low for this reference and eventually found it on the somewhat-forgotten Shellsport International Championship 1977 (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77916) thread.

I found another reference to a Musetti March: Autosport 6 Apr 1978 p58 mentions "Bill Wood (ex Val Musetti F2 March)". In the results (p59) it's called a March 752. Wood appears on other occasions in 1978 and the car is sometimes called a 762 but this is the only mention I've seen of it being ex-Musetti.I speculated at the time that it would be the car Divi had driven in 1977 but let's not get into all that again!

allen
yes in essence tr right but the march anorak man would be able to say that tub is not true 742 or 772P if it was viewed but all the parts will fit and to the average man it would look the part
ie 732 is same as 742 apart from bodywork then u want to fit a wishbone an dthe 732 will not fot 742 chassis but looks exactly the same
now you can see why a 732 can run in 74 in 742 body and 74b can run ass77b etc if u had a 3 year old car to do libre or hillclimb event would u enter as 74 model or 77 model?
is i so easy to swap over the bodywork !!


de dryver had 742# 30 car after purley ran B&O sponsorship
its possible the 742 could have been dressed as 782 bodywork wise but i suspect BdeD had the ££ to get newer car

Correct about the 772 tub - this was the first big difference in March design since they started. I think even a 722 could be fitted to 772P or 77B bodywork.
Interesting the Friswell connection on Orgee's car, and Orgee's remark about a new tub suggests that it might be the remains of 732-1 that he bought and reworked. I've got to email GF about his 73B this week so will also ask on this score.

Chris

Actually u can fit most bodywork to 712/3 tubs thru to 77B cars the 75 76 77 2 tubs where wider but i beleive you can get most of a later body to fit less the pods and fit the 742 crash structure side pods so this will explain why you find these 732 mongrel 77/82 libre cars

i can even supply u a 782 tub with dfv fitting 792 ish bodywork
go on tell me who had that car
pint on me to the 1st person who can !!

Val MUsetti had it last time it raced. The sister car was in a museum in Switzerland last time I saw it.

Actually u can fit most bodywork to 712/3 tubs thru to 77B cars the 75 76 77 2 tubs where wider but i beleive you can get most of a later body to fit less the pods and fit the 742 crash structure side pods so this will explain why you find these 732 mongrel 77/82 libre cars

i can even supply u a 782 tub with dfv fitting 792 ish bodywork
go on tell me who had that car
pint on me to the 1st person who can !!

Is this the Roy Lane '79S' Drifty ??

Is this the Roy Lane '79S' Drifty ??

If it is it subsequently went onto Ken Ayers who used it mainly in the British Sprint Championship as well as a few hillclimbs.

:beer:

Two posts from 15 Jul 2004.

The original tub colour looks as though it was yellow . It seems very odd that most of the major bits are stamped 732-55 , including this No stencilled on the fuel bladders with an April 73 date. I just bought Motoring News for 1975 and there are some very high 732 numbers appearing on the back of F2 grids that year. I'll find them again.As lighting fast and as responsive as ever, I've just found what I'd promised to look for. MN's report on Mugello in July 1975 gives chassis numbers for the whole grid and shows three 732s at the back of the grid. Roland Binder's car is unnumbered but Max Bonnin's is 732/59 and Luis de Almenara's is 732/44. These seem odd numbers to be showing on chassis plates but I can't see where else the reporter ("M.T.") could have got them from.

Allen

The transcribed March 732 build list I've seen has Binder's car as chassis 17 [not 18 as F1R] and it's the last built. Bonnin's car was the ex Brambilla chassis 5 and de Almanera's the ex Williamson chassis 14. I think the MN typesetter was ****ed.
Putting together the transcript with what we know of the earlier 732s from magazine observations on a good day...

1: Works car for Beltoise at Mallory [chassis number MN on debut] then Stuck. Not known 74-5 then 1976 John Calvert [G8 series, described as the Beltoise Mallory car] to Geoff Friswell and badly damaged at "Gold Cup" 1976. Maybe rebuilt by Roger Orgee on a 742 tub.

2: Unknown, therefore strong candidate for the Heroes Racing car of Hiromu Tanaka that appears in Japan F2.

3: Unknown

4: Brambilla family, for Vittorio. Used by Pesenti-Rossi and Colombo 1974, unknown 75 but seems to be the Brambillas experimental Lancia engined project in 76

5: Brambilla family, for Ernesto. To Max Bonnin 1974-76

6: Works, Jarier. Original tub badly damaged Thruxton, Easter 73 and rebuilt into 73A for Ray Allen to enter, but not appear obviously, in the F5000 class for the British GP that was projected and didn't happen.
Plate carried on a useful life with Jarier on a new tub

7: Jacques Coulon. Probably the Laurent Ferrier car of 1977

8: Colin Vandervell's F2 car.

9: Mike Beuttler, destroyed at Rouen, rebuilt as chassis 15 for Sutcliffe but may have kept 9 on it in light of subsequent observations. To Ken Smith [NZ] 1974 and Ken Shirvington 1975-78 at least

10: Works Beltoise then Jarier spare. 1974 Brian Lewis for Andy Sutcliffe/Vittorio Brambilla/Maxime Bochet. 1975 Roger Heavens: Antonio Prado. Allegedly sold to France for h/c 1977. For sale on Classic Car website in France in 2003, plate very new, allegedly having been rebuilt as 742 for Depaillier!

11: Bill Gubelmann 1973-76. Badly damaged at Mallory, when Wilds' Shadow landed on it and Gubelmann. Perhaps scrapped.

12: Brian Lewis for Jacques Coulon. Rebuilt as 74B? AS 25/4/74 sold to Mike Sullivan 'the ex Coulon F2 chassis' which is being updated to Formula Atlantic spec'. [Could be the older Coulon car chassis 7] If so, then tested as Atlantic by Crawford and Nicholson summer 74 then taken to Trois Rivieres for Depailler. Sold immediately after to SCCA driver Tom Sauerbrei. I've just traced Sauerbrei [who had the car to 1976 at least] and hope to learn more.

Plate on a 732 for sale in France 2003, but paper work for FIA says ex Joliat June 1793. Firstly see chassis 16 [new to Joliat in March records] and secondly, I didn't think there was much hillclimbing in France during the revolution.

13: Roland Salomon to 1975 then perhaps Beat Blatter on account of both being Swiss hillclimbers...

14: Wheatcroft for Williamson, unknown 1974 then de Almanera.

15: See 9

16: Jacques Joliat to 74, John Beattie [UK] since 1975???

17: Roland Binder to 1975

732-1 Works car for Beltoise at Mallory [chassis number MN on debut] then Stuck. Not known 74-5 then 1976 John Calvert [G8 series, described as the Beltoise Mallory car] to Geoff Friswell and badly damaged at "Gold Cup" 1976. Maybe rebuilt by Roger Orgee on a 742 tub.

Calvert was running a March in libre in 1975. I haven't yet seen it described by either rag but the Jock McBain Trophy program at Ingliston at the end of the season has a points table for the Scottish Libre Championship and lists Calvert's car as a "March 742 Ford". I'd presume that 732-1 with some 742 bits on it.

Who's John Beattie?

Allen

Calert's March is finally identified in a MN report at Croft in August. It's a March 742 with a 1850cc BDA.

Chris,

See my email re. the Mike Beuttler 732-9 , this car run by Brian Lewis Racing was tended by Greg Mobbs from Australia , who I happened to talk to the other day , Greg was with Beuttler when he totalled the car and did himself no good , a new tub and other stuff was ordered for the rebuild and in anticipation Greg unrivetted the chassis plate ready to be re-installed on the new tub, however when it arrived the tub came with a new plate 732-15 , so Greg put the plate 732-9 in his toolbox where it remains to
this day in South Australia.

We may be able to solve some cars by looking at the tubs , as I have been lately , e.g. 74B-12M in the USA has a very different front angle on the top panel than has 74B-U1 , 74B-12M looks more like a 712/722 tub , with the downward slope starting at the shock absorber pick up cross beam rather that other cars starting about 6 inches further back and much less slope as well.

Unless a car was modified later , one definate clue is the rear gearbox crossmember on cars up to and including 1974 was a fabricated item , it appears that from 1975 on the cars had a cast magnesium rear crossmember , 75B-8 certainly does as do all others whose photos I have looked at , if we used this a guide it may tell us the cars origins.

Bryan.

Bryan

712M and 722 tubs should be differentiated; difference was that the front tapered down on the latter to accomodate the lower profile nose allowed by the use of side rads.
The 74B was originally designed with front rads, and mid season they began to run the F2 style bodywork with side rads. My guess that the difference between the tubs in U1 [probably in any case as we've discussed likely a 732 tub, similar front rad to original 74B] and 12 delivered after season had started in US/Canada, reflects the design modification.

Chris

12: Brian Lewis for Jacques Coulon. Rebuilt as 74B? AS 25/4/74 sold to Mike Sullivan 'the ex Coulon F2 chassis' which is being updated to Formula Atlantic spec'. [Could be the older Coulon car chassis 7] If so, then tested as Atlantic by Crawford and Nicholson summer 74 then taken to Trois Rivieres for Depailler. Sold immediately after to SCCA driver Tom Sauerbrei. I've just traced Sauerbrei [who had the car to 1976 at least] and hope to learn more

this carwas tony hansford in 96 ish restored and aced then sold to usa as 73 #1 car i beleive

john beattie is engine tuner worcester area

Two posts from 15 Jul 2004.

As lighting fast and as responsive as ever, I've just found what I'd promised to look for. MN's report on Mugello in July 1975 gives chassis numbers for the whole grid and shows three 732s at the back of the grid. Roland Binder's car is unnumbered but Max Bonnin's is 732/59 and Luis de Almenara's is 732/44. These seem odd numbers to be showing on chassis plates but I can't see where else the reporter ("M.T.") could have got them from.

Allen

Allen, I presume the MT you quote was Murray Taylor. A good journo, and ran a decent F3 team, perhaps not to be trusted on tub no.s though ! John Beattie is a new one on me too, has he ever raced the car ?

MT boasted in a column that MN had sent a journalist to every F2 race from 1973 to 1975. This makes them a very rich source for F2 chassis data - but, as you say, not perfect!

i wonder of the high chassis plate number could be misconstrued as AM number??

how many 732 cars where built? 20 odd? i do not have the march book to hand to check
how did the 733 numbers go? 1-20 like f2 cars did?
was wondering if it might be a mongrel 733 chassis with high number?? or should i exit stage left sit down and be quite till spoken to?

how many 732 cars where built? 20 odd? i do not have the march book to hand to check17. Scoll up nine posts.

too fat n lazy to do that!!
so what logic is there for these high chassis plate numbers then - is it possible the tub AM number was used to stamp up the plate by the team in ignorance?
we need a march employee now to answer this sort of querie

too fat n lazy to do that!!
so what logic is there for these high chassis plate numbers then Strewth - you want me to come round and read it to you?
Bonnin's car was the ex Brambilla chassis 5 and de Almanera's the ex Williamson chassis 14. I think the MN typesetter was ****ed.
That T330 still not finished then I see...

T330 tis for sale as I sold the car to the man!!
Now he has no time to do rebuild so if i can sell it and return him his ££ he will be happy but i suspect it will be mothballed for 2 years while he deals with another project he has going into

my own 290 is progressing slowly:cool:
where is 752#9 who had it etc
i have plate for 732=13 ( i think poss 12?? ) on my desk somewhere under all my mess twas given to me with a 733 roller i inherited from france (well it was sold to me as an f2 car!!) but it was definatly f3:rofl:

Drifty

Do you mean to say that that highly polished 732 with a too new to be true chassis plate on it [reading 732-1] that appeared a while back actually held the remnants of Depailler's Trois Rivieres car?
Who owns that car now? What kind of "history" was it sold with?

752-9 was works car initially for Leclere/Tambay then Stuck. I think that as the two Elf drivers later got the magnesium tubbed 12 adn 19, 9 was probably the one that the works tell MN was kept with an alloy bulkhead to cope with Herr Stuck's more vigorous approach to kerbs.
Where did it g? My money's on Japan

Now back to work [to answer Drifty's enquiry I'm writing an accompanying essay for an artwork that's being made to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the Aberfan disaster] and at some point you may be able to see me talking about it late night on BBC.

Chris

I was barely around for the Aberfan disaster- was that was the slag heap slide in wales that killed the school children??
when u say late night tv u mean after 11 pm?

re march cars
i often wondered if #19 was misprint for 9 in the book so yr saying stuck had 2 chassis 9 & 19

re march 732 cars i may have confused you
732 Coulon car (# 12 ) was converted to 73 B #1 by factory and sent to usa
the chassis came back to uk many years ago Tony had the car he restored it in stp coulon colours but ran it as 73b 1 car in hscc events he sold the car to usa ( i saw it BRICS 2002?) so the f2 car is now atlantic car and chassis 12 does not exist but i am sure i have the tag!! i must find it i think the petty coat government has intereferred with the pot i left it in years ago !!
its at times like this i am reminded of the t shirt i saw
it takes 32 muscles to frown but only 4 to ***** slap

Yesterday , I went a-trolling through race-cars .com archives looking at tub photo's , results ===

All the 712/722 type cars front alloy panel starts the downward slope at the front shock absorber cross beam, then all the 732/73B/742/74B etc. start further rearward at the support beam inside the tub connecting the front two magnesium bulkheads , approx 6 inches further rearward.

Until , the fly in the ointment was 742-13 Jimmy Missuet car which was as per 712/722, am I being suspicious in believing March may have sold an old 712/722 dudded up as a new 742 to some unsuspecting French Hillclimber.
I would love to know what the tub number was on that car.

Bryan.

Bryan

Funny you should mention this as I was talking to a someone yesterday who has extensive experience of these cars on this very subject.

He told me that there is no downward slope at all on the 712M/713M/71BM tubs (see "712M/18" on race-cars (http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/march/712m18/712m18ss.htm)) then it starts at the dampers on the 722 tub (see "722/8" (http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/march/722008/722008pd.htm)) and then slopes from the rear pickup for the front suspension on the 1973 tubs (see "732/10" (http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/march/m73210/m73210pe.htm)). That seems to match the race-cars.com photos.

I'd phoned him to see if he could identify a tub that was under a mid-1980s Can-Am car. He identified it as a 1971 March chassis which matched what Chris already suspected.

Allen

Allen

The reason for my renewed interest is it looks like 74B-12M is coming over here, no not me, and I will get to look at the tub number finally in a few months , and that car looks like it is on a 712/722 tub , which is what I have suspected all along , as a wild guess , I think that will turn out to be 71B-12M , rejigged and replated somewhere/sometime IN PERIOD.

Bryan.

See my Chevron B18 post. Kim M added something on his March's this morning. Forgot to ask where the ex-Coaker 712M went, do we know this anyway? Or was it written off in Mike's accident at Oulton? He said their dad insisted it be sprayed yellow from the original green!

The ex-Calvert 722-29, after Kim went to a mate of David Aukland's. Kim couldn't remember his surname, John something, a St Helens Estate Agent, who climbed it. After that it went to Peter Riley.

The next March, the 'bitza' 742/752/74B' etc, was the ex-Multiglide car. Kim recalled it as being a 712M originally, he picked it up down south, and fettled it at Bicester with various new/used parts. He confirmed Alan Jones had had some outings in it in Atlantic. It had various engine problems, but went well otherwise.

I asked which was the best car he ever drove, he said without hestiation, the works 792 at the Brands Aurora 79 race.

Fascinating conversation, to me at least, Kim very happy to discuss the 'good old days' !!

Great work Dan!

The ex-Calvert 722-29, after Kim went to a mate of David Aukland's. Kim couldn't remember his surname, John something, a St Helens Estate Agent, who climbed it. John Kitchin?

The next March, the 'bitza' 742/752/74B' etc, was the ex-Multiglide car. Kim recalled it as being a 712M originally, he picked it up down south, and fettled it at Bicester with various new/used parts. He confirmed Alan Jones had had some outings in it in Atlantic. It had various engine problems, but went well otherwise. That will be the car that Chris lists as 712M/"9". It appears on the build record as 712M/10 for Jaussaud but then chassis 9 and 10 swapped plates during 1971 and the ex-Lauda 712M/9 goes to a French hillclimber wearing "712M/10" and Colin Andrews gets 712M/10 wearing "9".

So that makes it a 712M/74B/742 I reckon. I think I'll list it during Mather's time as a '742 [712M/"9"]' as he called it a 742 more often than anything else. Or something like that.

Allen

782 was the best pre GE car 792 suffered from porpoising as march did not get the GE concept working at that time 802 was a better car

842 was allegedley the best f2 car even RT said it was better than rh6 but he had the motor to win over bmw but in japan nakajima 842 honda was the winner!!

Allen, re 712M/9 (or 10). It may have been called a '742', but also a '752'. Kim says some of the parts he collected from Bicester were off the various real 752s damaged in the Thruxton accident at the start of that year, ie a sidepod from Depailler, and a top section, I think, from Ronnie's car. So perhaps '752' is more accurate...

He first entered it as a 752 (at least I assume the journalist took the info from the programme) in early 1975 but it was later referred to as 74B, 742/B, 752/B and then 742 in reports. A curious case of the spec seeming to go backwards.

I've already altered my database (it's a quiet day!) and found the quickest thing to do was to leave the specifications as I already had them (i.e 752, 74B, 752/B etc) and just set the underlying identity to be 712M/"9".

When we've talked about how to describe these bitzas in the past, I think we settled on combining the original spec and the latest spec and not worrying about the intermediate specs. So if a 712M had 722 bits still on it from 1972 and 73B bits from 1973 and 74B bits from 1974 and 752 bits from 1975, it would just be a 712M/752 in its final form. So, on reflection, how about 712M/752 [712M-"09"] for Kim's car? And, to make it all consistent, when John Sheldon raced it once at the end of 1974 as a "74B", I'll change that to 712M/74B.

Allen

Dan - did you ask Kim where the 712M/742 thing went after him?

Allen

maybe car should be 712m (#9) / 752 or 74B or 74b(712m#9 ) ??
with its full title we know its the same car with an ID crisis not 2 or 4 different cars as it can appear
a su know know allen u can take 712 fit panels and make it any model u like
only when u get yr wisbone to fit to a car do u then realise 712 bone doesnt fit 732 or 75b 77b car but tub/ naked car looks the same at 5 paces:rofl:

Dan - did you ask Kim where the 712M/742 thing went after him?

Allen

Sorry Allen, no, we got sidetracked into the B34D/772P/802and tyres issues! Next time.

However, OTOH wasn't it to Warren B?? Kim also mentioned in chatting Paul Gardner, wasn't him was it?

... tub/ naked car looks the same at 5 paces:rofl:Not with what I've learnt in the last 24 hours about the slope at the front of the tub. I can now tell a 1971 tub from a 1972 tub from a 1973-74 tub and I even think I can tell a 77B/77P tub from a 1974. Well, I think I can...

You said that the 752, 762 and 772 had wider tubs but the 77B and 772P had the narrower tubs again. What about the 753, 763 and 773? And the 75B and 76B? Did they all keep the 712-based narrow tub?

Allen

... and what about the 1978 cars? What were they?

OK the Mather car being the ex Multiglide car poses a number of problems!

Let's start with what the Multiglide car really was...

It was a March 712M and it carried plate 712M-9.
However its identity is inseparable from the histories of 712M-10 and 11.

9 originally a works car for Niki Lauda, 10 and 11 for the Shell-Arnold team for Jean-Pierre Jarier and Jean-Pierre Jaussaud respectively. Then at Rouen [27.6.71] Lauda appears in a new car ‘built in four days’ [MN] and carrying the plate 712M-10. [MN 17.6.71 p. 22 reports that Ganley wrote off Lauda’s car in testing at Thruxton.] MN says that Jarier appeared in Lauda’s old car bearing the plate 712M-9. At Mantorp MN has Lauda back in 712M-9, though given Lauda’s status as works driver this may well have been the car debuted at Rouen. The March sales record has 9 sold to French hill-climber Gerard in 1972, but carrying the plate 712M-10. 712M-9 is noted by Adam Fairnington on the Mike Sullivan Racing car in British Atlantic in 1974, when raced by Alan Jones. (This car was also raced by Richard Robinson and John Sheldon). However! This car was noted by AS in 1974 as being ‘ex Colin Andrews’. Andrews used a 712M in British Atlantic noted several times as ‘ex Jaussaud’ by both MN and AS. Though Jaussaud ran 712M-10 [once] as well as 11, this suggests that this is the original Shell Arnold car [712M-11] carrying the plate from Lauda’s original car [9].

So the lineage on the cars looks like this: after 1971 11 carries 9; 9 carries 10; 10 probably carries 11. But in 1971 10 was originally 9 and the original 10 seems to have been scrapped.

Now throw this in...
Norman Dickson "74B" Oulton 26/5/75 described as ex Multiglide AS 29.5.75 p. 37. An ex Dickson March is for sale in A/S in 1976, up in Aberdeen...

Oh great, at least it's not complicated then...

Anyone got Norman Dickson's number? He was at the McFestival the other week wasn't he?

Just had a really nice email from Geoff Friswell about his March 73B

Turns out it was an ex works 732, chassis 3. Geoff still has the plate in his tool box. Thinks it might have been ex Jarier, but interestingly this number is previously unknown in period so perhaps it was the test car, or maybe Jumper ran it when journalists and F1R were looking the other way.
It was being built up as an Atlantic for a quick FF driver [Parsons or Pearson?] when he got banned for running a breaking the seals on his engine before the scrutes got to it. [Richard Parsons rings bells here]
Bill Stone did a deal with Geoff and Geoff's dad paid 5 grand for it as a roller to replace his very bent TS10.

The car used in G8. Geoff can't remember who it came from [so we need to check the Calvert bit of the story] but it was rebuilt and sold to Roger Orgee as a roller.

With the information from Drifty on 732-12/73B-1 [or should that be U1?] I'll try and sort out a revised 732 list in the next couple of days

Chris

PS to Drifty - yes Aberfan was that mudslide on the school. 128 kids were killed, most of the children in the village.

Chris/anyone
send me any questions u have for roger Orgee on march cars i have his email and tel no but Ive not spoken to him for a long while so i can interrogate him
see chevron b48 posting i had some musetti 742 info as well that will depress allen brown :p

i will eventually find that march tag but im sure its the coulon f2 732 tag that was converted to 73B1 its now fir sale in us of a again

Drifty

Having 732-12 converted into 73B-1 is a bit of a problem 'cause we know that Choularton's real 73B carried that plate [Adam F observed at Oulton in 1973] and it certainly wasn't that car. So do we have two 73B-1s?

March practice for that kind of late season conversion/build outside the production run would surely have been to put one of their funny lettered plates on it. U1 or R1 or T1 would make sense.

Questions for Orgee. After he bought it from Friswell did he re-tub it again, or just live with the 742 tub that Fris put in late 1976? Can he remember if the plate was still on it [ha ha] or even the tub numbers...
Who did he sell it to and when?

Chris

Chris re 732-13 or 13 whatever coulon "works" assited stp car was is the car that Tony rebuilt to race as 1600 bda atlantic car in f2 colours he said it was converted at factory way back then! he had the file and got the fia papers on the car and then he sold it to usa
will ask roger the questions now

Chris,

In case you have forgotten , the other period ''lurker '' we have is the car March lent to Harry Stiller/ Bev Bond late in 1973 , which after Harry advised was not my car that they ran in 1974 gives us another car that could have had any old plate / identification , and where , if anywhere did that go , or did it get pulled down and rebuilt as ?????????????

Bryan.

List now needed to see where these cars are many of us are confused :rofl:
as allen is on holiday maybe he is willing:laugh: