Chevron B48

Jeremy

The car Devaney had at Donington F2 a few weeks before that Phoenix race was a wide-nosed B48, ie like the B42. I think Rothengatter's Docking car had that nose too.

On this point the Gordon book says 8 B48s were made. I reckon 2 were works/Rahal, one each to, Trivellato for Stohr, Docking for Huub, Jochen Dauer (KWS ?), another works one for Gaillard, what about the other 2 ? Any ideas, perhaps the B49 was classed as a B48 in their records, even so that still leaves one. Far East maybe ??

Dan

According to the F1R,

01: Works-Rahal
02: ?? Listed in F1Rs index, but unless I'm going crazy, isn't listed in any race. So asssumed to be Dauer's??)
03: Rothengatter
04: Stohr
05: Listed as Rahal T-car at Thruxton, nothing more
06: RAM for de Dryver (possibly)
07: Listed as Rothengatter T-car at Thruxton, nothing more
08: Works (Gaillard, Devaney)

There was one raced in Japan by Team Phoenix for Fujita (05 or 07?). Dauer has a lot of DNAs up to Pau then disappears from the entries. Did he actually have a B48?

Jeremy

I agree with much of B48 listings, pretty sure Dauer definitely had one, didn't he finish quite well in it at one of the early season German rounds, thats in the top 10 I mean, not any higher !

I'd forgotten about the RAM/de Dryver car, but it does ring bells. Was he entered for one of the F2 races in 79, he did Aurora with RAM that year of course. I must admit when I saw the entry (in a Belgian F2 round??) I suspected it may have been the B42 they had for Regout that year updated, rather than a brand new B48.

The Japanese car may well have existed, it would make the nos add up, since I'm pretty sure Rahal did have 2. I think this 'cos 2 of the 3 that came to Britain in 80 were listed as ex-Rahal, that is the Booth and Baker cars. I think Robinson had '08' which he used from late-79 , the ex-Gaillard/Devaney one that EJ used at Phoenix Park. I suspect we may never the whole truth, I guess the Bolton records were not that important at the time.

Btw where can I get the F1R records, are they on the web anywhere ?

Dan

Robinson definitely had 08, Baker had 05, Booth had 01. I'd forgotten about Baker's car. I guess that wasn't the Japanese car then.

OK, fair enough - Dauer started with a B48 (un-numbered (by F1R) at the Nurburgring in April - crashed after 2 laps.

Jeremy

The race I had in mind for Dauer was at the Ring in 80, when he finished 5th in the B48. Pretty good effort that, though I guess the Ring was always good at throwing up big shocks. I also noted, from the same source, that Robinson also finished 5th at the 81 Silverstone F2 season opener in, it says, the B42, though I wonder if it was his B48. Were you at that race, I wasn't but I recall it was very wet, Thackwell won in the Ralt Honda, there were a few other 'odd' placings that day. I think he (Robinson) converted one of his cars into an Esprit GT car, any memories of this??

Dan

I saw Robinson's Esprit (based on the B48) loads of times, tried to get to as many of those Transnational GTs races as I could. Can't remember when he converted it, i saw it first in 1983. He was in the B42 at Silverstone 1981, the chassis he used for most of the 1979 Aurora series.

F1R has Dauer in (possibly) B48 06 at the 1980 Eifelrennen.

All.

The Huub Rothengatter car B48-79-07 , with it's Alan Docking modified bodywork was used by Australian Andrew Miedecke at Macau , and had a pretty good accident in Andrews hands.
Car returned to Aust. damaged and bodywork discarded , the rest of the car inclunding Hewland FG are still in this form residing in the Southern Highlands of N.S.W.
Neeeds a new tub, otherwise everything is still there less BDA.

Bryan Miller.

07 was the car used by Rothengatter in the (January) 1980 NZ Formula Pacific series

Have also just noticed that Steve Jewell was racing a B48/07 in UK late 1980s/early 1990s. He also had 08, but I have a clear mental picture of the two cars parked side by side in the Thruxton paddock
Make of that what you will!

Chevron B48s

Broadly agree with what's been said about who had what so far, but the description of the Jordan car as a 'B49' might be sort of accurate. F1R is often inaccurate on F2 chassis numbers [witness the Briggs Chevron B42s in 1978].

Jordan's was the car raced by Devaney at the Donington F2 round. It had earlier been raced by Gaillard in Euro F2. It was built as a development car in late 78 as an updated B42. Patrese races it in Macau '78, then it goes to Japan where Rosberg uses it in Japan GP [March 79, entered by Le Mans co]. Then it comes back to Europe.

Brian Robinson owns B48-08 in 1980 and 81, but I'm wondering if that was, indeed, this car, or if it was another B48 that didn't sell.

Chris

Chris

Thats very interesting re 4 B49s, I've mentioned on here before that I'd always thought Jeffrey's was the only one. How did the Opert/Tolama cars go in the US, and were they in the main series there ? There's certainly no mention of them in the 79 Autocourse Top 10 results.

I'm pretty certain Robinsons car was -08, he debuted it at Silverstone in Oct 79 Aurora, and it definitely looked like the one I'd seen at Donington with Devaney, and that EJ had at Phoenix.

Should we assi=ume that Huub did have 2 cars in 79, 03 & 07.

David, re the Jewell cars, were they both definitely B48s, or possibly B47s updated somehow. Brian Turner in Monoposto in about 85 had B47-08, I wonder whether there has been some number transposition here, as Bryan has B48-07 in Oz still. Also, we ssem to think Robinsons 08 was converted into a GT Esprit, I accept it could well have been converetd back.

Very very interesting !!!!

Chris

So as regards B48s, we're fairly sure that the works had 3, for Rahal 2 and Gaillard/Devaney (EJ)1 , though I think Gaillard had the 'Rahal/Ampex' car at Donington, when Devaney was in the one he (Gaillard) had used before( Not surprisingly these 3, 01-05-08, were the ones that ended up in Aurora the next year).Docking/Huub had 2, Stohr 1 and Dauer 1. That just leaves 1 car (06?) unaccounted for.

The B48 under Robinson's Esprit in 1983 was 08, the chassis plate was still there. That car was used by Bob Nelson in 1984. Also in 1983-84, Paul Rhodes had a B48-based Esprit, whcih I noted as 01.

In Aug. 1984 Rhodes drove a white B48 in a Mallory libre race, didn't see the chassis no., but "said" to be ex-Rothengatter.

In 1985-6, Rhodes raced a B48, but this was either Robinson's car, or his 1984 car with Robinson's yellow bodywork.


Then there was this dark blue B49, driven by Peter Oxley at Mallory in July 1984...

Chris/Jeremy

Blimey where to start !

The Rhodes B48-01 makes sense, we know its the ex-Booth car, I guess he used it both as an F2 and GT. I remember that Libre race, have the programme at home. I can't believe he would have had 2 of them so surely it was 01 in both guises. Unless... he had 3 chassis, 01 which you've noted as definite, the ex-Huub car by rumour, AND Robinsons 08. Would anyone be that daft to get 3 of the things.

The Oxley B49, I also saw at Mallory (we must have been following each other round the Paddock Jeremy, very weird !), I assumed it was a modified F3 B47, but perhaps it was the Hope Scott B49, I may have a picture of it, I'll look tonight.

B48s
I have Paul Rhodes in 08 in 1985 - was this too early for the car to have been converted back from its Esprit configuration?
Or did Robinson have two 08s?

David,

The Robinson/Nelson Esprit didn't apear in GT races in 1985 to my knowledge. The last time I saw it was August 1984, and I saw Rhodes' yellow B48 in April '85. Comparing my photos of Rhodes' car with Robinson's in the Aurora series, it looks like the same one

Did some research into some of these items last week, from old programmes, where I've noted chassis nos. Might help a little, but not a vast amount.

At the Donington F2 race in 79, B48s as follows: no 1 is works/DNS, 3 Huub, 5 works/Gaillard, 8 works/Devaney.

Dave

Are you sure of this, I thought we'd reached some agreement that the car EJ had at Phoenix in 79 was the ex-works B48-08, the one Gaillard used in Euro F2 that year, then Devaney at Donington. It was a yellow car, and did have the 'B42-like' wide Chevron nose.

I'm fairly sure it was a B49. I was at the race and it did look different to the B48. I'll check with the last Irish owner of the car that I think it was.

Also, B42-78-02. This car was widely regarded as ex Opert/Rosberg here. It is fitted with later (B48?) rear suspension. Patsy McGarrity told me this. Perhaps it was sold on to Opert as a spare. Any Ideas?

Dave.

At Donington on Sunday, I had a good chat with Steve Worrad of Maverick Motorsport. He was running Alain de Wagter (?) in the Derek Bell in a B48. Steve says its the ex-Huub car, no 7, and he also has the other one no 3.

I mentioned this thread, he said he'd be interested in looking at it, esp re B48s, and B42s, the latter being a model he's actively looking for one of.

Says he'd heard there were 8 B48s made, which confirms what we think. He's aware apparently of the ex-Stohr car, and also says the de Wagter, a Belgian, is in touch with and a mate of both Regout and de Dryver. I said that we were unsure whether the RAM car entered for De D in mid-79, (but not raced I think)was the usual Regout/Aurora B42 updated, or was a 'real' B48. If the latter, then our list of 8 is complete, but if so where did it go I wonder. Maybe Steve can help out here too !

All in all a very interesting chat, as ever not enough time to go into properly.

Originally posted by Dan Rear
There's also a picture of Patrese in a 'B48' at the early season Japan race, it looks quite a bit different too the other B48s pictured pre-season. Was this the oen later numbered -08, that we think was based on a modified B42 tub ?
Is this the photo you mean?

http://www.riccardopatrese.com/JAFSuzuka78.jpg
5th Nov 1978 JAF GP Suzuka - Chevron B48 Hart

B48-79-07 is as I reported earlier in this thread in Australia and has been since Andrew Miedecke stuffed it at Macau, and it has the plate on the car.

Bryan.

Bryan, thats interesting, I'd forgotten this when I was chatting to Steve W. Maybe he has -3, the other ex Huub car, and his other one is a further car still ...

He was adamant it was ex Huub, saying he has some original bodywork from it, showing sponsorship from Binair Computers, which is correct. He also says he has a wide nose, ie like a B42/40/35/29 etc, for it, which Huub definitely used at ceratin races in 79, the Phoenix Park Irish Atlantic for one.

So I wonder which is his other B48, perhaps -8, the ex works/Robinson car, that pictured above I think with Patrese at the JAF GP.

I tried e-mailing Steve W, message returned to me.

Dan.

The car here ran with Alan Docking modified bodywork, I am unsure whether this was done and run as modified in the U.K. or if the modifications to bodywork were only on the car over in this neck of the woods, but carried out in the U.K.

Bryan.

Booth had the ex-works/Rahal B48 (01) didn't he? Then moved on to the ex-Purley/Evans Shadow DN9B.

One of the ICI B42s went to Ireland, can't remember off-hand on the other.

I'm almost afraid to add to this dauntingly complex thread but Adam Ferrington provided me with these notes from his hill climb records:

1981 - Norman Galbraith - Chevron B48-79-10 (ex De Dryver/RAM)

1982 - Ray Rowan - Chevron B48-79-04 (ex Terry Fisher)

1983 - Richard Brown - Chevron B49-79-02

1984 - Chris Knapman - Chevron B49-79-02 (ex-Brown)
1984 - Lyn Whitehead - Chevron B38-77-02
1984 - Richard Ames - Chevron B40-77-08

1987 - Stuart Ridge - Chevron B48-79-04 (ex Fisher, Rowan)
1987 - Dave Whitehead - Chevron B49-79-02 (ex-Brown)

Sorry if the B38 and B40 belong elsewhere. And yes, that Galbraith number really is a 10.

Allen

Blimey Allen, some interesting stuff there. On the Norrie G car, I don't recall him in a B48 at all, was he out much in it that year? Perhaps he got it when Robin Smith bought Chevron and took it all up North. Also is Adam sure on B48-10, I thought we'd agreed only 8 were made, and the RAM/de Dryver car was -06.

On the Rowan car, again I'm dubious. First I don't remember him in a B48 at all, second didn't Fisher have a B42 NOT a B48 ? Third, wasn't -04 the Stohr car, if so I wonder how it got back here, IIRC it was used occasionally in 1980 by some Italian.

Next, the Brown/Knapman/Whitehead car. I do recall these chaps in a 'B49' I'd always assumed it was a converted B47 F3 one. If they did have a real B49, it must be one of the Opert/Tolama cars, as Jeffrey's Hope Scott car was 01, and Lawrence's Far East one 04. If it was a B49, I wonder where the B47s all went ?

Any views Jeremy/Chris et al ???????

I can email Adam some questions. I guess the 48-10 bit is worth checking, isn't it? And Rowans's B48-04?

I would trust Adam on this as he's always struck me as highly meticulous.

Allen

Dan,

My 1981 notes (primarily from Autopsort & MN), have Galbraith driving a B48 fairly regularly. Occasionally referred to as a B48S, but no identity unfortunately.

I have Rowan in 1983 events in a B45... Now B45-04 would make sense... wouldn't it?

Jeremy, I stand corrected on the Norrie B48 issue, but B48-10 ???. Wasn't he killed later on driving, or am I getting mixed up, many apologies if I have. Rowan in B45-04 makes complete sense, given that car's history, you're right.

Allen, in the ubiquitous Chevron B29 thread on Ten Tenths you mention that you don't need information about Hillclimb Chevron B48s and B49s. Does this mean you can help with the following?

1) 1988 Steve Jewell's B48 - believed ex Bobby Rahal (I understand he owned the ex-Huub Rothengatter chassis as well).
2) 1993 Roger Kilty/John Roberts' B49 then running a 1.6 BDA

All the best,

Steve I do?!

I may be referring to the fact that Adam gave me a list of hillclimb chassis plate observations and that those include:

Norman Galbraith (1981) B48-79-10 ex-De Dryver/RAM
Ray Rowan (1982) B48-79-04 ex-Terry Fisher
Richard Brown (1983) B49-79-02
Chris Knapman (1984) B49-79-02 ex-Brown
Stuart Ridge (1987) B48-79-04 ex-Fisher, Rowan
Dave Whitehead (1987) B49-79-02 ex-Brown

Allen

Hi Guys and girls

I am trying to track the history of each of the Chevron B48's in particular chassis number 06. Would like to know who drove them when, and the results.

thanks

toshjaky@hotmail.com

You have of course seen this:
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45474&highlight=chevron+b48

Thanks David

I was aware of that thread but there appears to be no definate history on chassis 06.

I had been told that it was used at one stage by Rahal but is unconfirmed.

I want to check it out because my brother has owned the car for probably fifteen years and is now wanting to sell it. It would be good to know the history.

Tony

The known Rahal cars were chassis 1 and 5.
Chassis 6 is something of a gap: it may have been a Docking Spitzley car, may have been the original de Dryver car, but that begs the question as to why he then got chassis 10, or might indeed have been a third car for the works F2 effort.

Three questions that might help solve the provenance:
What colour is the original gel coat on the bodywork?
Who is the earliest owner you know, and where were they?
Any scrutineer's stickers anywhere?

Chris

Chris, I thought we'd agreed -06 was the RAM car, used once for Bernard de D, and once for Luyendijk. Seems to have disappeared then, perhaps it went downunder. Where do you get chassis 10 from for de Dryver ?

Steve Jewell hillclimbed and sprinted a B48 from 1988 onwards. He actually owned two chassis: a) the ex-Huub Rothengatter car, and b) the ex-Bobby Rahal car. He actually restored the Rothengatter car to the same stae Huub drove it in. Meanwhile the Rahal car had the sidepods removed and was painted a nice shade of blue.
Can anyone furnish the chassis number of the ex-Rahal car that Jewell drove?

THANKS :)

Steve, at least 1 of the Huub cars, -03 and -07 we think, is apparently still downunder. The Rahal cars were -01 and -05. Both came to England in 1980, with Warren Booth and Roy Baker for Aurora. The 3rd ex works car, -08, was bused by Gaillard, Devaney, Jordan in 79, and in 80 went to Brain Robinson. He later built it into an Esprit GT car.

Which ones Jewell had I don't know, anything in 'Uphill Racers' ? Also are you sure Jewell's were B48s, might they have been a B49, or even B47???

Steve, at least 1 of the Huub cars, -03 and -07 we think, is apparently still downunder. The Rahal cars were -01 and -05. Both came to England in 1980, with Warren Booth and Roy Baker for Aurora. The 3rd ex works car, -08, was bused by Gaillard, Devaney, Jordan in 79, and in 80 went to Brain Robinson. He later built it into an Esprit GT car.

Which ones Jewell had I don't know, anything in 'Uphill Racers' ? Also are you sure Jewell's were B48s, might they have been a B49, or even B47???

Steve Jewell's cars were both B48s - he went on to race in the Derek Bell series with the Rahal car. They came with the Rothengatter and Rahal bodywork. I was able to provide photos of the two drivers at Thruxton (Easter Monday). The idea was that Steve could restore both cars to the state they had appeared in with Rothengatter and Rahal aboard. However having done this with Rothengatter's car he adapted the Rahal car to speed event standards (no sidepods, small radiator, etc).

I'll email a contact who might be able to get me in touch with either Steve or his mechanic! :)

Jewell has (or had) 07 and 08

Jewell has (or had) 07 and 08
According to my contact Steve Jewell still has at least one Chevron (I suspect the ex-Rahal car). I am now awaiting a response to an email sent to Steve's compnay - so fingers crossed.

:cool:

According to my contact Steve Jewell still has at least one Chevron (I suspect the ex-Rahal car). I am now awaiting a response to an email sent to Steve's compnay - so fingers crossed.

:cool:

Did you get anywhere with this Steve ? If Jewell still has 07 & 08, I wonder which were the 2 that Alain de Wagter had/had. At least one was reputedly ex-Huub. Is this the same car ?

Did you get anywhere with this Steve ? If Jewell still has 07 & 08, I wonder which were the 2 that Alain de Wagter had/had. At least one was reputedly ex-Huub. Is this the same car ?

Dan, I'll punt off another email! Had no response but suspect things have changed recently at Steve Jewell's work place.

On the question of ex-Rahal & ex-Rothengatter - these were the cars that Steve Jewell said they were and I provided photos to Steve of both cars at Thruxton in their original trim.

Fingers crossed for a result!

My spies were in contact with Steve Jewell at Prescott on Sunday. The two cars that Steve ran were:

48-79-01 - ex-Rahal

and

48-79-03 - ex-Rothengatter

According to my spies he still has both cars! :cool:

:woot:

Steve, the -01 car went to Roy Baker for Aurora/FAt in 1980-81, don't know after that. The ex Huub car, -03, no idea after 1979. Anyone know ?

Steve, the -01 car went to Roy Baker for Aurora/FAt in 1980-81, don't know after that. The ex Huub car, -03, no idea after 1979. Anyone know ?

Steve Jewell was sprinting B48-79-01 in 1988, possibly also in 1987(?). It was in the 90s when I found out (a) whose car it had been and (b) that Steve also had the Rothengatter car.

Dan

I think that one of the Rothengatter cars went to Ireland and the other to NZ, so I guess that 03 is the one from the Emerald Isle.

When Steve Jewell took delivery of the Rothengatter car there were loads of oddball body bits. One of which was a sidepod 'painted all sorts of colours, like a test piece' I was able to provide Steve with photos of the car at Thruxton repleat with said side pods to prove that the rainbow effect was intentional.

Wasn't the 'rainbow effect' on the works/Rahal Ampex car, ie B48-79-01. IIRC the Docking/Huub car was all white.

Wasn't the 'rainbow effect' on the works/Rahal Ampex car, ie B48-79-01. IIRC the Docking/Huub car was all white.

NO

:cool:

steve did sell 1 b48 car to alan de wagter
alan now has 2 b48 cars 1 with 1600 bda reputed ex rahal car other has 420r in it

steve did sell 1 b48 car to alan de wagter
alan now has 2 b48 cars 1 with 1600 bda reputed ex rahal car other has 420r in it

Steve was running B48-79-01 at Prescott so -03 must be the one sold to de Wagter.

There is currently an advert on the EuropeanF2 website by de Wagter for chassis 03 & 07, with a pic of car minus sidepods. Contact details are for Steve & Alain, but don't know how long the ad has actually been there.

its about 6 -12 months old de wagter bought f1 car and was looking to out the f2 cars

There is currently an advert on the EuropeanF2 website by de Wagter for chassis 03 & 07, with a pic of car minus sidepods. Contact details are for Steve & Alain, but don't know how long the ad has actually been there.

Thats odd, I thought we'd confirmed one of the Huub cars was downunder ??

Anyone feel like putting together a summary of what we've discovered so far. THe main Chevron thread has got to an unwieldy length.

Allen

I've just been re-reading this thread to see if it makes more sense now and I'm still struggling.

However, maybe I can add something on that Japanese B48. The only results I can find for a B48 in Japan are:

JAF GP (5 Nov 1978) - #2 B48-Hart - Patrese 3rd
Suzuka (11 Mar 1979) - #6 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Rosberg Ret
Nishinihon (8 Apr 1979) - #7 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Naohiro Fujita 6th
Suzuka (20 May 1979) - #7 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Naohiro Fujita Ret
Fuji (3 Jun 1979) - #6 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Fumiyasu Sato 9th
Suzuka (1 Jul 1979) - #6 Le Mans/Nikko B48-BMW - Stephen South Ret

I wonder if Rosberg, Fujita and South are all driving the same car in which case it looks like a different car to the one Patrese drove at the JAF GP (and at Macau 78 according to a comment above by Chris). If, as Chris has said, Patrese's development B48 returned to Europe for Gaillard and later Devaney to race in 1979, then it was back in Europe by late April 1979 for Gaillard at the Nurburgring and can't be the one Le Mans Company are still racing in Japan. Or did Gaillard have the new B48-79-08 at the Nurburgring and only use the development car on some other later occasion?

I also spotted that confusing RAM Racing B48-BMW being driven by Luyendijk at Zandvoort on 15 July. It first appears at Hockenheim on 8 April but doesn't appear often. If Adam is right, and I suspect he is, this car would be B48-79-10. The number of B48-79-06 that we used earlier in this thread came from F1R and had a dot after it in their book, denoting speculation. Adam's identification comes from seeing the chassis plate of Galbraith's "ex-RAM/de Dryver" car.

So I think we have:
Dev't car Works/Patrese late 1978 - can't work this out for 1979 (help Chris!)
B48-79-01 Works/Rahal 1979 - Warren Booth 1980-81 ... Paul Rhodes "ex-Rottengather" (as Esprit) 1983-84, Rhodes (as F2) 1985 ... Steve Jewell by late 1980s
B48-79-02 no idea [Works/Rahal spare Silv 79 F1R]
B48-79-03 Rothgatter 1979 ... Steve Jewell by late 1980s (maybe 08??)
B48-79-04 Trivellato/Stohr 1979 - Trivellato/rental/Tesini 1980 ... being advertised on the web 2006 (in France?)
[b]B48-79-05 Works/Rahal spare/Gailard 1979 - Roy Baker 1980-81 ...
B48-79-06 no idea, maybe Dauer's ... Tony C's brother c1990
B48-79-07 Rothengatter spare 1979 - Rothengatter NZ 1980 - Andrew Miedecke (crashed at Macau) - still in Australia in damaged state 2006
B48-79-08 Quasi-works/Gaillard/Devaney 1979 - Brian Robinson 1980-83 (became Esprit by 83) - Bob Nelson (as Esprit) 1984 ...
B48-79-09 no idea
B48-79-10 RAM/de Dryver 1979 - De Dryver entry only early 1980 ... Norrie Galbraith 1981 ...
[b]Dauer car Dauer 1979 (B48-Hart crashed at Hock; KWS B48-BMW crashed at Nurb) - Dauer 1980 (B48-BMW at Hock and Nurb)

What can we add to this? I struggled to make sense of it.

Allen

how many chevron b48 cars where made chevron story stops at B45 listing
le man co in japan would have had the 1 car only racing and it doesnt seem to show up in the 1-10 chassis range so it could be the developement car left in japan for 79 season they where also march agents as well

what car did Gaillard race? u have him at 2 chassis#

steve jewell had 2 b48 cars 1 was sold to the belgian poss rottengatter chassis who also owns 1 of the Rahal cars not sure which 1

Allen,

B48-79-07, all I can add at this point is that the bodywork was totally redone in the U.K. prior to Macau , and I am pretty sure it was done by West Surrey Racing, when I say redone I mean in a totally different type/style.

Bryan.

Drifty

Gaillard drove a 'new' B48, presumably B48-79-08, at two or three races early in the season and then disappeared for a while. When Rahal took over the Prophet drive in Can-Am, the regular 'works' B48 drive was vacant for Donington and Gaillard was brought back. According to Dan Rear's post above, Gaillard drove B48-79-05 with B48-79-01 kept as the spare while Devaney drove B48-79-08, said to be the car Gaillard drove earlier in the season. Rahal's regular car had been lengthened mid-season - do we know if Baker's or Booth's car was showing this mod in 1980?

Two things I forgot to add to the story up above: at Phoenix Park Sep 1979, Eddie Jordan drove the the ex-Gaillard/Devaney B48-79-08 (said to be a B49 but I'm sure Chris is right on this one) and Rothengatter had one of his B48s, also in F/Atl spec. As B48-79-07 then went to NZ as a F/Atl, it would seem likely that it was B48-79-07 he drove at Phoenix Park.

The Japanese car could be 02 or 06 or, as you say, the development car. It could even be 09. It's possible 01 was the development car and then kept as works spare in Europe in 1979 while a new 02-BMW went to Japan for Le Mans Company. Many things are possible :) Factory records really would help here.

Allen

The development car becomes chassis 08.
This may be of help too.
MN says the ex Patrese car is loaned to Le Mans Co for Rosberg to use in the Japanese GP.
MN says Devaney's Donington car is "The ex Patrese Macau chassis; an updated B42 which Gaillard drove earlier this year" If it bears the 08 plate by this time, and has to come back to UK for the rebuild, then I think the split is either after Rosberg's JAF GP appearance or after Fujita's 8 April outing. This would mean that by late April Fujita gets a new car which - if 08 is one new number allocated at this tim, as we know it is - suggests the otherwise unknown 09 as the "real" Japanese B48.

I think that 02 is the KWS car for Dauer, but can't find a note on my Chevron chassis history sheet as to why!!

Which car does Tom O'Leary get in 1981? There aren't too many options than 03.
I thought that Adam F had noted 48-04 as Ray Rowan's 1982 car, ex Terry Fisher.

Chris

I thought we were fairly clear on these Allen. 1,5 and 8 were the works cars, driven variously by Rahal, Gaillard, Devaney and EJ, 2 is Dauer, 3 & 7 Huub, 4 Stohr, 6 RAM.

The mystery items are the Japanese car, -09 perhaps, and the Adam note that Norrie G had -10. The Ray Rowan car was, I'm certain, actually the ex-Keke/Jim C B45, not a 48.

As an educated guess, the Norrie G car could be -10, a 'brand new' car, given his base, and that by then the operation had moved to Scotland. Maybe he had a word with Robin Smith there, and they knitted up a new car for him, based on an unused 1979 tub and numbered it the next in sequence, ie -10?????

u can ask helen malkie but they charge their normal hourly rate to serach thru files

Blimey, I'm in the wrong job dw!!!

rowan had b40 car for a few yrs sold that to john crowson in 98 ish martin o connel raced it thruxton 94 f2 race

duncan rabliagati charges for his march info and mrs M said they charge for their time to dig thru files
lola charge for the drawings to be dug out and printed on the time aspect
so yes we are possibly in the wrong job!
ok really we are saddos but lest say u where aske dby joe bloggs to research the cars history consider yr time at say £10 per hour
when u search the web scan yr books that u have bought read thru yr AS mags the rime soon knocks up !!

i have bought £3000 worth of books the past 5 yrs just to get the info i need !!

I thought we were fairly clear on these Allen. 1,5 and 8 were the works cars, driven variously by Rahal, Gaillard, Devaney and EJ, 2 is Dauer, 3 & 7 Huub, 4 Stohr, 6 RAM. Maybe Dan, but why were we clear? Maybe it's just that bane of the historian, "received wisdom". As far as I can see, the only reason for thinking RAM had 06 was because F1R called it 06 with a dot after it to show it was speculative. Do we have any other reason to think RAM had 06? Is there any supporting evidence? Anything at all?

Chris, yes you're right, Adam had Ray Rowan in B48-79-04 (ex-Terry Fisher) in 1982 then had Stuart Ridge in B48-79-04 (ex-Fisher, Rowan) in 1987. I had accepted Dan's view that this was actually B45-78-04 (ex-Crawford). However, we need to have a good reason for discounting Adam's contemporary observations; maybe the chassis plate had been overstamped following a rebuild or something. Crawford had the B45 in 1980 so does this mean Terry Fisher had it in 1981?

One more spanner to hurl into the works: Sports Extra in Autosport 8 Jul 1982 p45 has a feature on Robinson's newly completed Lotus Esprit where it says it was built on Robinson's "faithful Chevron B42". It repeats B42 in a caption of a picture of the tub. And talking of spanners, Richard Brown's "B49", identified by Adam as B49-79-02, is said (Autosport 16 Sep 1982 p30) to be "the ex-Bernard Devaney Chevron B47 F3 chassis, subsequently updated to B49 Atlantic specification for Scotsman Bill Ness". Some very odd things were going on at Chevron at this time!

Allen

ok really we are saddos but lest say u where aske dby joe bloggs to research the cars history consider yr time at say £10 per hour
Hang on, why is it we do this? For financial gain? I don't think so.

I research racing cars because I enjoy it. Some people enjoy crosswords, some Sudoku, some like building model ships; I enjoy figuring out old racing cars. I feel it's more productive but at the end of the day it's what used to be called a "hobby". If someone asks me to research their car specifically, I just say no. Unless I fancy doing it anyway of course, in which case I just do it and don't charge. If they wanted to buy my time, it would be a hell of a lot more than £10 per hour. Years ago, before OldRacingCars.com, I used to charge £500 per car but stopped because it was no fun researching some obscure sports car that I didn't care about.

While I might freely exchange information with anyone who can move my research forward, Vin and Helen are running a business. If an owner wants them to go through their old files, why shouldn't they charge a proper business rate? I suspect if enthusiasts/historians like us asked them, their attitude may be different. Maybe their attitude already has been different but they'd rather it wasn't broadcast? I don't know, I'm just speculating.

Allen

Allen, as ever you're right! We have no evidence to think -06 was the RAM car, at the time I even thought it was a B42 updated, which it could have been I suppose.

I'm still doubtful, purely from memory, on Rowan having -04 in 1982. I can't see why anyone, logically, would import a relatively 'poor' F2 car from Italy for the hills. Anyway, didn't Terry Fisher have a B42 around that time, not a 48. On the Jim C B45, I'm certain Vin Malkie had it in 1981, possibly 82 and 83 aswell.

Finally, the B49/47 issue, I've long suspected a number of the cars called 'B49s' on the hills were really 47s. They disappeared from F3 soon after 1979, and I reckon they would have been picked up cheap by sprinters/climbers soon after, and re-engined.

Allen, as ever you're right! I wish!
I'm still doubtful, purely from memory, on Rowan having -04 in 1982. I can't see why anyone, logically, would import a relatively 'poor' F2 car from Italy for the hills. Anyway, didn't Terry Fisher have a B42 around that time, not a 48. On the Jim C B45, I'm certain Vin Malkie had it in 1981, possibly 82 and 83 aswell. You've got me thinking now. Rowan only appears in the Sprint series Top 10 twice in 1982 and in pretty lowly positions whereas in 1983 he was winning rounds. Maybe he had a different car in 1982 to later years? Autosport don't report sprints in 1982 but Rowan is mentioned once, winning his class in a "B40". Maybe he had an older Chevron in 1982 and then acquired something newer for 1983, maybe something that had been updated at the factory and had acquired a dodgy chassis plate. You're right that Fisher had a B42 in 1980 but he only appears once, at Snetterton 10 Aug, and fails to start. His car has been identified as B42-78-14 and had a BDG at the time.

So are we concluding that the Rowan/Ridge "B45" wasn't the ex-Crawford car and that we actually don't know what it was?

Steve - help!!

Allen

PS Do you recall what Malkie was using the ex-Crawford B45 in? Libre?

Malkie was out in some of the few 'decent' Libre races in the UK in 81, eg the July 4th 81 Donington Open. He was 3rd, behind Val M's Bennepaldi, and Andy B's March '782'. In that race, which had a good entry, both Booth and Robinson were out in their B48s.

1 read terry / rod fisher cars as rown cars they live aprox 200 meters apart
2 yes you can read some of the b49 hillclimb /sprint car as f3 b47 cars in many cases
i will ask ray if he had b48 car its possible that he may have sold this to steve jewell later

Kevan, I'm struggling with your shothand again. Is it Terry Fisher and Ray Rowan you're saying live 200 metres apart? So the Chevron Terry Fisher drove at Snetterton in 1980 could have gone to Rowan for 1982? Could you ask Ray how many Chevrons he had?

I've just checked the Autosport Snetterton report and Fisher's car is described as the ex-Agostini/Brill B40, not B42. But it must be a B42 as Ago never had a B40. So this is the car Dan was asking about a couple of years ago - I'll add a comment to the B42 thread.

Allen

see my earlier comment re rowan chevron b40 martin o connel driving it in 1993
Mr Brown please pay more attention!!;)

just read yr other comment re archives ££ per hour
yes some people have a business to run so if there not welding a widget to a rocker at X£ per hour and sifting thru files they still need to charge their time
i doubt they would look at their files for us unless u flash the cash
i acquired the comment when i asked Helen about 1 car we own andwe wil be buying some parts later for it so i was not expecting this comment !

my point was that if u had to do research for a punter it would take more time than you realise and i appreciate that we are " train spotting" here and we do it for "competitive" reasons or cos we are do dumb do do sudoko/crosswords but life has become easier with the email web thing
how would i for example find u guys?
u dont drink in my local pub nor come to the races making yourself known
i have learne da few things just from these threads and "met " some guys that have been helpful off line for my own gain so i give back what i can in return
However i would be very irritated if i found a snake in the grass profiting from our ramblings and im sure we would all stop doing it

1 rod is rays brother in law
2 terry is "down" the street at present not sure oif they are related in anyway hence my vagueness

3 Ago B42 car was run by steve fitzsimmons sold circa 1999 & now in usa with bmw fitted in period Voxson livery

4 I will ask ray he called me other day to check i was still alive so 2 discussions in 7 days may be too stressful for him !!

see my earlier comment re rowan chevron b40 martin o connel driving it in 1993
Mr Brown please pay more attention!!;) Sorry! And you also said that Rowan sold a B40 to Crowson. The latter car would be this one:

B40-77-08 Opert for Laffite and others [Hart] 1977 - Opert for Prost 1978 - Gibson 1979 - Harper 1980 ... Ames 1984-86 ... Hill 1988-90 ... Crowson 2006

So that can't be the Rowan-Ridge car as that has a history from 1982 to 1987. So is the Martin O'Connel ex-Rowan B40 a different B40?

i will ask him

Ago did have a B40
He spent the winter of 77/78 flogging round in one. According to MN it was the ex Ardmore car [chassis 01 then] and they even reproduce a picture of it in Voxson livery.

The confusion of the B47/49 in the Brown car is interesting.
The Devaney B47 was chassis 08. The number and description as his car is given in a Chevron ad A/S 15.11.79 p. 59. I understand this to be the Griffiths car of recent years in sprinting and h/c.
49-79-02 is an interesting proposition because the number does not appear on the Chevron build record I was sent by Tim Colman. Only 1 and 4 do.
1 Andy Jeffrey, 4 Graeme Lawrence. However, we know 5 exists and did so in period. [Tommy Phillips]
After Jeffrey stuffs 01 rather badly he appears in what AS notes is a new car on loan from Chevron, and then a race later in what AS calls his original car repaired.
01 can be traced to Stu Lawson in early 1980 and I'm told by Tim Colman that this was Peter Oxley's car in 1985 [so not the Brown/Knapman car]
Chevron still have an old B49 that they wheel out for Masanori Sekiva in 1982 until the B56 is ready. Can't be 01, 04 [in NZ], 05 [in Seattle] so perhaps there really was a 49-79-02 which got stuck into the Devaney car.
Brown doesn't appear until Sept 82 [AS 16.9.82 p. 30] which is after Sekiva has finished with a B49.

£10 an hour? I'd want a sight more than that! This is for fun and relaxation. And doing Ralt RT4 histories really is like a giant form of Suduko.

Chris

Knapman told me he had f3 B47 car dressed up as f2 car on the hills

£10 per hour was a figure of speech- anyway what overheads do u have? office space secretary electricty phnoe line rental etc??

if yr doing it for "fun" and some one wants to pay u a fee of say £10-15 per hour i would have thought that as a bonus:rofl:
if some paid me £30 to drive their race car i would think i was in heaven instead it costs me £1000 to do a race!!:banghead:
sominks wrong somewhere!:error:

Chris

Is it a build record you have or a sales record? Is it possible B49-79-02 was built but not sold?

And isn't it a remarkable coincidence that Devaney drove both B47-79-08 and B48-79-08. They're not the same car are they? I can't see how they can be but with so many dodgy things going on at Chevron 1979/80 I had to ask.

Drifty - my overheads are a wife and two children!

Allen

would it be fair to say the b47 8 9 monocoques are the same so perhaps the engine gbox corners could be swapped around swiftely hence the same chassis tag on a tub enetered in different races
i cant see the same driver running the same serial no car from 2 different models what are the odds of that 1 in 20 perhaps

allen yr overeads can be reduced in 1 swoop
as a well known race driver told my father 20 years ago he got rid of his mortgage and wife in the same day -its called a divorce!!
The children can sweep the chimney`s for their keep

Ago did have a B40
He spent the winter of 77/78 flogging round in one. According to MN it was the ex Ardmore car [chassis 01 then] and they even reproduce a picture of it in Voxson livery.Where was he racing this Chris? Any idea what became of it after he got his B42? Barton by any chance?

For the record, Ken Brill's ex-Ago car is given by Autosport as B42-14 and unless Marcus took that number out of an old notebook for his report and was actually looking at a plate-less B40 (unlikely), that's a solid identification. So the Fisher car was almost certainly B42-14, not B40-01.

And yes, I know this post is now on the wrong thread.

Allen

Allen, don't think Ago ever raced the B40, testing only I suspect. Barton had his 'mystery F2 car' in early 77, before Ago got the car, so can't be the same one.

My tech knowledge is zero, but surely an F3 tub couldn't have been turned into an F2 car ??

Did Andy B use a B40 for a time in 1978, and destroy it too, or am I dreaming things?? If he did, was it the one Harper got later, ie -08 ?
Andy bought a B40 in time for the 1978 Bank Holiday Monday Croft meeting (see Autosport 8 June 1978 p51 and p57) but put it over the bank in practice. He never raced it again so presumably it was too bent even for Barton.
Dan, are you thinking of the mystery B35 he wrecked in 1977? I only knew about the B40 he had in 1978 because of you!

If B40-77-01 went to Ago after Ardmore for 77/78 testing, it's still in play as a possibility for Barton's short-lived car in the spring of 1978.

Allen

go look at any march f1 f5000 f2 f3 71-74 cars all same s=tubs but have different thickness bulkheads
ralts rt1 f2 f3 atalantic /super vee
rt3/5 tubs the same
would not surprise me if chevron f2 f3 was same tub

I'd agree with Drifty about the F3 and Atlantic tubs. Not so sure about F2 because of the extra tank capacity.
B48 prototype has a new tub I'd guess, because this was the tryout for the first ground effect car, so I presume they'd do something different to the B42, I've seen a photo of it with Patrese in, and it has B48 bodywork but probably still has 42 suspension. They then put a new tub in it in April/May.

I don't think that this would have been the F3 tub at that stage because the F3 drivers were still attempting to make the B47 work. 47-08 seems to survive as an entity because David Warner rents it for the British GP and Martin McCarthy for the TV race at Thruxton at season end.

Regarding the B49. I think 49-02 was built, intended for Opert along with 03 , and both were cancelled. 02 stays at Chevron until 1982. 03 don't know. Gaps in the Chevron number record sometimes indicate replacements for existing car, others are back-door jobs.

Unfortunately you do get drivers with the same chassis no on different models - DICK B****Y BARKER for one; Carl Liebich has Lola T460-HU18 from new and then goes and buys T360-HU18 second hand afterwards.

Ago did only test the B40 and did have a real B42. The B40 ref is MN 2.3.78 p.14

dw, fair enough, I bow to your far superior knowledge here (but can't you brush up your typing skills!!!). Allen, sorry I forgot the Barton B40 from early 78.

Chris, why do we know there were at least 5 B49s? 1, perhaps 2 for Jeffrey, one for Opert/Tolama, one for Lawrence, what is the Tommy Phillips one? And what about the Irish B53, that came out in 1981, can't recall the driver now, was this based on a spare B49 tub ???

This is getting good again, my hourly rate's going up ...!!

B49s
What Tim told me was in the record was
01 Jeffrey [independently observed early season]
04 Lawrence [confirmed by Dave McKinney]
05 Phillips [confirmed in the recent ad of this car]

Why the gap?
We know that there is an extra car in there as Jeffrey's replacement.
Opert never took a B49 in the end - ran B45 and B39 plus March in 1979.
Think we need to look to NW sprinters and h/c for the answer... I seem to recall a B49 for sale in Lancs in 1980/1 that couldn't be placed without an extra car existing, since 01, 04 and 05 were accounted for and one other car was still at works.

Chris

PS This is now keeping me from writing - only 180 words so far today and my target is 1000

As this is a, great, revival of an old thread, did we ever discuss B47s much? I'm intrigued by Devaney in -08 (B47 that is, not B48). Given that he was announced as the first McMahon Team driver that year, and pictured in a car quite early in 79, I assumed that car would have been -01, or -02, NOT -08. I wonder if the latter is the revised car he drove from about May onwards, with the wide nose, and other mods. That would seem logical, so I wonder what the others were numbered.

IIRC there were a total of 3 McMahon cars, or 4 with the -08 I surmised above, + the Roe car, ie 5. From memory we were told KWS had 3 cars too, also John Lewis had one later that year. So perhaps 9, the bulk UK based, and which could well have morphed into 'B49' Atlantic engined climbers later on.

B47s
McMahon 3 cars for Jordan, Johansson and Devaney [and maybe 03 originally for Devaney]
Michael Roe
Three KWS
One Trivatello in Italy for Gianluca Messini (but by 1982 there are two of these popular beasts running in Italy!)

The John Lewis car was quite possibly built outside the works run as Lewis often finished his cars after hours at the Chevron factory where he worked.
His B34 is a problem for me...

Get anywhere near 1000 yesterday?

1 what are you writing Chris?
2 sue griffeths has chevron b47 cum 49 for sale Jordan`s f3 chassis with 2litre millington in it
3 i do accept that some guys will get 2 or 3 cars that have same serial no on different models usually eiether collectors seeking chassi no 1 or works drivers getting the 1st cars each season but its rare to get high numbers unless you have made it a mission
4 Dan "brushing up on typing skills" is a possibility but like Bob Geldofs dishevelled look or Merzarios cowboy hat ths could be my trade mark (maybe i should copyright it?:rofl: ) however i cant type and read screen at the same time its the same as i watch the urinal so i dont get it on my shoe by looking elsewhere:cool:
5 fuel cells may be bigger in some chassis but often the f2 car will have extra tanks in chassis side to accomodate the longer races/greater consumption- if you consider making cars you would look at a cost saving exercise and utilising the same chassis size is a boon along with the uprights

Drifty's unique spelling is how I worked out who he was.

If an average run of production cars is, say, 8 per year then the chances of a repeat customer getting the same chassis number is simply 1 in 8. So you'd expect it to happen quite often. However, not that many customers go back for the following year's car as the difference can be quite incremental and a 'kit' would probably do the job. Also, drivers move category, change constructor and move from second-hand to new. So it's only the Bill Bracks of this world who even put themselves in that 1 in 8 situation.

Having said that, whenever I see a driver with the same number two years running, I start digging to see if it could be an updated car. I think one of Matich's McLarens was such - with the model number on the old chassis plate just overstamped. (But try telling the present-day owner that!)

Allen

I can only add on the March 74B and the B29 Chevron I am currently playing with the fuel tank issue with bag tanks is a non issue , they simply installed a longer/shorter bag for the Formula needed and put in a closure plate to stop it sliding forward is what seems to have happened if a shorter bag , e.g. atlantic versus F2 .

Drifty/ Kevin , don't obtain any typing skills please , I obtain much enjoyment trying to figure out what you are saying.

Chris , I know off thread , any help on The March 81A-15.?

Bryan.

Re single chassis for different formulae, I recall Autocourse being especially dismissive of the B48 (David Hodges maybe) in their 79 F2 report. OTOH something like "...Chevron merely dolled up their existing uninspiring chassis...", implying B42 and B48 tubs were v similar.

Could this be one of the reasons the issue seems so complex 25 years or so on? And why 2 Italian 'B47s' appeared in 1982, Chris?

The Chevron book says Southgate's brief was "to produce a 'wing car' version of the B42".

Bryan i agree on tank issues lola t290 has same thing add in side tank for more fuel/longer events
was "typing" australian to assist the poms for their overseas trips but im even confusing the natives!!
the more real pom beer i drink the worse i get but hey no fear of that happening down there with the cold p155 u guys have

i read my chevron book that the B42 was same tub shape as b48 with GE bodyshape "add ons" to a wing car design

the italian trivellato team had 2 cars 1 for Stohr has that been listed before?

there is a b48 roller for sale in uk i have a foto of it from owner i believe its trivellato car will look for it it may have chassis no on it or i will ask him directly
also getting new ID tag and enrolling on pitman typing class !!

Where's evidence for 2 Trivellato cars Drifty, I'm sure only the 1 for SS. Too much beer's not good for you...

Yes Dan the ugly woman at 1 pint is better looking at 5th pint!!
i saw in chevron book stohr and another driver as the trivellato reference to the 2 cars

Further complicating things B48/49 wise, I see that Roy Baker entered his ex-Rahal B48-05(?) in an early 1980 UK Atlantic race. He later reverted it to F2-spec.

Guys I have spoken to Ray and asked questions and had the following answers are you happy now??
Allen DONT mention the Musetti car !!:rofl:

1 Did you have chevron b45 car? I believe ony 1 survives of the the 4 built now in usa
No-I had b48 chassis with plate was updated from b42 then back dated to a b42 spec with 48 tag -ken brill raced aurora as a b42.Later I sold it to stuart ridge to david seton in scotland then to another sprinter hillclimb man carl amos lost track here where the car wentI ran it as "B45" in atlantic spec. Terry Fisher had it in 1981 from Brill

2 The B40 car you had in 93 is the car that Crowson now has ?
yes
Allen Brown said B40-77-08 Opert for Laffite and others [Hart] 1977 - Opert for Prost 1978 - Gibson 1979 - Harper 1980 ... Ames 1984-86 ... Hill 1988-90 ... Crowson 2006

3 Did you have any Chevron b48 cars?
I had pukka car 1980 from creighton brown/ Project 4 set up but not run as project entry was like a new car !!
I sold to norrie galbraith 80 or 81 - he ran with bmw engine?
car then poss to father/son yorkshire painter decorator type people I cant recall their name right now( i kno wu guys ar escreaming it!! ) may have had the car ( they also had other chevrons & ralt f3000 cars) then to steve jewell Im sure it was the "Hark sound "team car for huub rothengater
Allen Brown said
Ray Rowan in B48-79-04 (ex-Terry Fisher) in 1982 then had Stuart Ridge in B48-79-04 (ex-Fisher, Rowan) in 1987


4 You had march 742 or B car was this ex cramer car?
No car was bought from leeds willy wood/ bill wood was the ex musetti car in 762 format ex aurora The carwas then sold to john beattie raced in monoposto he fitted 742 body back on it

5 Are rod fisher and terry fisher related? no relation
rod is Ray brother in law -terry is few 100 meters down the road

Ray said he also later had march 783 ex chico serra converted to "78b" spec fitted the 762 bdx and added the ft200 to it Later I sold to brian fisher who shunted it then sold as damaged parts car to??:cool:

Guys I have spoken to Ray and asked questions and had the following answers are you happy now??
Allen DONT mention the Musetti car !!:rofl:

1 Did you have chevron b45 car? I believe ony 1 survives of the the 4 built now in usa
No-I had b48 chassis with plate was updated from b42 then back dated to a b42 spec with 48 tag -ken brill raced aurora as a b42.Later I sold it to stuart ridge to david seton in scotland then to another sprinter hillclimb man carl amos lost track here where the car wentI ran it as "B45" in atlantic spec. Terry Fisher had it in 1981 from Brill

4 You had march 742 or B car was this ex cramer car?
No car was bought from leeds willy wood/ bill wood was the ex musetti car in 762 format ex aurora The carwas then sold to john beattie raced in monoposto he fitted 742 body back on it

Ray said he also later had march 783 ex chico serra converted to "78b" spec fitted the 762 bdx and added the ft200 to it Later I sold to brian fisher who shunted it then sold as damaged parts car to??:cool:

Anyone have the chassis numbers for these three cars by any chance?

steve i said the 48 car was chassis no as per allen browns comments

the Huub R car # is mentioned elsewhere on this thread
i had to leave somink for u guys to look up:laugh:

Steve

The B42 was B42-78-14 - ex-Agostini (1978), Brill (1979) and Fisher (1980).

The March '742' is a mystery much discussed on the March 722 to 772 thread. Musetti had two cars to similar spec: one that may be linked to the Matthews 723 and/or 73B; one that we haven't yet been able to trace. One went to Howard Wood in New Zealand and went to Bill Wood in Yorkshire.

Drifty

Is John Beattie the engine guy?

Allen

yes beattie is engine guy i told u that 2 weeks ago please keep up with the plot- thought u had gone on yr holidays
if yr saying B42 was the Ago f2 car i think thats in usa ex fitsimmons car or did he run 2 cars
the car was plated as B48 not 42 just ran in 42 spec again has 1 of us lost the plot here?:rofl:

The March '742' is a mystery much discussed on the March 722 to 772 thread. Musetti had two cars to similar spec: one that may be linked to the Matthews 723 and/or 73B; one that we haven't yet been able to trace. One went to Howard Wood in New Zealand and went to Bill Wood in Yorkshire
does this make 4 cars then when yr talking about 2 similar cars or am i missing somink here ( wrong thread i know but 1 car in 742 bmw spec was in OPz came to uk in 96 ish from bmw dealer-Miller time here)

yes beattie is engine guy i told u that 2 weeks ago please keep up with the plot- thought u had gone on yr holidaysAs I'm way behind the plot, what else did you tell me about this one? Do we know where the March went after Beattie? Do we know where it is today?

does this make 4 cars then when yr talking about 2 similar cars or am i missing somink here ( wrong thread i know but 1 car in 742 bmw spec was in OPz came to uk in 96 ish from bmw dealer-Miller time here)No, just the two. One that we've discussed with Bryan (can't remember where it is today) and the one that went Musetti-Bill Wood-Beattie and would be very good to trace so we can find out what tub is in it.

Allen (on hols but with nothing else to do until after lunch)

oops

1 Did you have chevron b45 car? I believe ony 1 survives of the the 4 built now in usa
No-I had b48 chassis with plate was updated from b42 then back dated to a b42 spec with 48 tag -ken brill raced aurora as a b42.Later I sold it to stuart ridge to david seton in scotland then to another sprinter hillclimb man carl amos lost track here where the car wentI ran it as "B45" in atlantic spec. Terry Fisher had it in 1981 from Brill This matches what Adam had told us some time ago about the chassis plate on Ray's car:

I'm almost afraid to add to this dauntingly complex thread but Adam Ferrington provided me with these notes from his hill climb records:

1982 - Ray Rowan - Chevron B48-79-04 (ex Terry Fisher)

1987 - Stuart Ridge - Chevron B48-79-04 (ex Fisher, Rowan)So it was a B42 but with a B48 plate. So why was the plate from B48-79-04 being used?

Allen

Ray said car was B48 not 42 car it was an updated 42 chassis made into 48 car hence plate is B48 car did get tunred back to 42 spec easy t do remove sid epods just like making march 742 into 732 or 772P etc

i believe the 42 48 tub is same chevron book said southgate basically made wing/GE car from B42 as the B48

I dont know Beattie to speak to im sure someone does so they can call him ask the impertinant questions on march:laugh:

Been on hols, so only just picked this up!

I read into Drifty's notes/comments from Ray R, that the car he called a 'B42' was in fact the 'missing' ex RAM/Harksound B48 from 1979. The car entered very occasionally that year for de Dryver and Luyendijk in F2, and which then disappeared as an F2 car. The fact Ray said it was like new, may confirm this history, only raced twice, I think, in 79. We tentatively listed it on page 1 of this thread as no. 6.

It also begs the question was it the same tub as RAM used in 79 in Aurora F2 for Regout/Garon, ie B42-9, the ex ICI 78 car. If it was a wholly different one, I wonder why they didn't use the newer car, the B48, in Aurora, rather than the older B42? One for John MacD maybe !

But Ray also said he got it from Terry Fisher who had got it from Brill. He said it was a B42 (which was right for the Brill/Fisher car) but updated to B48 and with a B48 plate (which agrees with Adam's observation of the plate as B48-04).

The "almost new" B48 he had was a separate car wasn't it? That's how drfity has listed it. It went to Galbraith where Adam observed the plate as B48-10. Ray said he bought it in 1980 and sold it in 1980 or 1981 so that's before he started running the B42/48.

Allen

Allen

yes allen yr right the new "unused " b48 was the Harksound car that later went to Scotland for Norrie to run

the fisher brill b42 cum b48 plated car car was the aurora car and later turne dback into b42 spec WITH b48 tag
ray ran it as a B45 just to confuse the enemy !:cool:
so Dan did u have too much sun or was it to much beer on that club 18-65 holiday you went on?:laugh:

Sorry chaps, my mistake entirely. Ray had both a B42 (ex Ago/Brill/Fisher) AND the ex-RAM B48 I assume. But why did Ray get the car, the B48, from Creighton Brown/Project 4. Was there a connection between that team and RAM whop ran it in 79?

So let me ask a simple question!

What would be the correct way of listing the Ray Rowan B45?

a) B45-78-04
b) B42/45-78-04
c) B42/48-78-04
d) B48/42-78-04
e) B45/42-78-04
f) B45/48-78-04

or what?

:hair: :banghead: :ouch:

g) None of the above.

It's not a B45 and was never B45-78-04. That number was applied speculatively on the B45 thread and we now know it's wrong. Nor was it B48-79-04 as that plate doesn't belong on the car and its real identity is B42-78-14, albeit well modified.

I plan to call it B42/B48 [B42-78-14] as it was B42-78-14 updated to B48 spec. I'm then going to use the footnote facility on OldRacingCars.com to add the other important information that it was entered and typically reported as a B45 and that it carried a plate saying B48-79-04.

Beat me to it Allen! Another related issue, what happened to the real,, B48-79-04, the Trivellato/Stohr car? Did this come out occasionally in 1980, Daniele Tesini rings bells...

Dan u brought the RAM thing into the thread !"!
I reported on what the man told me directly
That was he took the car from C Brown and the car was a P4 car but not entered by P4 tean and was used once or twice
He also mentioned the harksound part

Stve e the car was NOT a b45 it was RR enetering it as that cos he had no idea what to call the car i think it had 1600 motor and b424548 is same car parts
the car was a B48 plated car that was an updated 42 car by chevron who fitted the 48 tag along with the 48 parts
yes car went back to 42 spec and RR ran as b45 in its entry but it wasnt a 45 car
anyone still confused?

i added my notes as AB was tip tapping as well so i missed his comments and yr subsequent comment
what do u mean real b48-79-04 car??
the RR car was that car chevron would not have put 2 cars out with same tag:laugh:
my understanding is the car was b42 upgraded to 48 spec AND tag was applied
the other B48 car that was the hardly used car he sold later to Norrie was another plate
or have i lost the plot here and need to refer back to the man hmself to ask for plate info

g) None of the above.

It's not a B45 and was never B45-78-04. That number was applied speculatively on the B45 thread and we now know it's wrong. Nor was it B48-79-04 as that plate doesn't belong on the car and its real identity is B42-78-14, albeit well modified.

I plan to call it B42/B48 [B42-78-14] as it was B42-78-14 updated to B48 spec. I'm then going to use the footnote facility on OldRacingCars.com to add the other important information that it was entered and typically reported as a B45 and that it carried a plate saying B48-79-04.

Thanks Allen. I will follow your example above.

i added my notes as AB was tip tapping as well so i missed his comments and yr subsequent comment
what do u mean real b48-79-04 car??
the RR car was that car chevron would not have put 2 cars out with same tag:laugh:
my understanding is the car was b42 upgraded to 48 spec AND tag was applied
the other B48 car that was the hardly used car he sold later to Norrie was another plate
or have i lost the plot here and need to refer back to the man hmself to ask for plate infoNo, you haven't lost the plot. Not quite, anyway.

Dan's suffering from ferry lag but his question about what became of the "real" B48-79-04 depends on F1R being right that 04 was the Trivellato/Stohr car. I don't think we have any other evidence that it was 04 so maybe the 04 plate was unused in 1979 for some reason. As we are now pretty confident that the RAM car was 10, not 06, it's possible the eight B48s went from 01 to 10 with two numbers being unused. Anything's possible.

Here's an idea thats just come to me.

That year, 1979, when Project 4/ICI ran the semi-works 792s, Stephen South was the second driver. I recall now that he'd been rumoured to be running a 'works blessed' B48, prior to his getting the ICI drive only just before the 1st race that year at S'stone.

I wonder whether he'd bought the B48, using the proceeds of his 782 sold to Adrian R, and then gifted the car to Project 4 as payment for his drive that year. That would explain why the car was hardly used, and why Ray R bought it from Project 4. So if this is correct, the car may have been no. 4, which means the RAM/Harksound/de Dryver car may well have been no.10. Which only leaves 1 B48, no.9, not accounted for.

Lots of ifs there I realise !!!

1 B48 for sale i asked the owner for info as i have some fotos

Yes, still have the B48 it is chassis no.B48 04
It was the trivellato car, originally driven in B42 form by Agostini (I have met him and he told me about it). Then modified at the factory to a B48.

this car came from Mr Slinn he got it from Bodini in italy What number did Ago have on B42 as i thought that car is now in usa after steve fitsimmons had it in uk back in 95-00
My info came from Tim Colman of the Chevron register, not anybody I bought it from. B42 chassis no. B42 78 14, again info from the register

I believe these B42 cars where returned to factory to be updated to B48 as oppossed to buying new cars as the tub engine gearbox uprights etc where all the same so why spend more ££ buying a new car with the same parts on it-- what needs to be established is a list of B42 cars with cross reference to B48 chassis tags & vice versa

There's a B48 updated from B42 ex Agostini for sale in this weeks autosport which must be (famous last words) the above mentioned car.

Must admit having read this thread I've lost the plot. My understanding was B42-78-14 was the Trivellato Agostini car, but are we now saying this car was updated and given a B48 identity B48-79-04. If so why do we have B42-78-14 in the USA with chassis plate and B48-79-04 (apparently) for sale in Autosport with chassis plate.

yes the car is the car i mentioned updated etc
and i know lee chapman ha sthe Voxson car
that car was the fitzsimmons b42 car he race din 98 -2000 in DBT
i was aware of these quirks but i resisted in making the comment as u have done for fear of creating confusion!
be interesting to hear what others have to say or Chevron records reveal
i have my own theory that i cant print here!!!

If so why do we have B42-78-14 in the USA with chassis plate and B48-79-04 (apparently) for sale in Autosport with chassis plate.

In some instances all that is left of a racing car is the chassis plate and dependant on the history of the car that carried the plate it could that the chassis plate is worth a lot more than any other complete car of the same model.

I have even heard of duplicate chassis plates being issued by manufacturers which is why there are sometimes two cars with the same chassis number.

Of course I am not suggesting that this is what happened in this case.

;)

My understanding was B42-78-14 was the Trivellato Agostini car, but are we now saying this car was updated and given a B48 identity B48-79-04. If so why do we have B42-78-14 in the USA with chassis plate and B48-79-04 (apparently) for sale in Autosport with chassis plate.Yes it was updated and yes (according to Adam) it wore chassis plate B48-79-04 but that's not the same as saying that it was the B48-79-04. Maybe there were two chassis plates.

Allen

ok when does the B42 car cease to exist?
when it is updated to the B48 - even if it has the same tub gbox ( poss motor??) uprights etc?

or is the 1 car still able to have dual identity if it wanted to!
ie race 1 week as B42 then midnight oil burning to convert to b48 for the next weeks racing and wear either of its tags?

on paper there where not 2 cars built only 1 with modifications made

Who said the B42 ceased to exist?

It just got updated and acquired a dodgy plate. It's still the same B42.

Racing cars often have multiple identities. Look at Heskeths turning into Williams, Huffakers turning into Finleys, Chevrons turning into Tondellis... And we all know one model can turn into the next as we've discussed March single-seaters and Chevron sports cars before. This looks like a B42 became a B48 for a while and then went back to being a B42.

I don't know anything about the ex-Slinn/Bodini B48 but that could well be a car that was a B48 all along.

Allen

Thats what I thought Allen. I have loads of detailed photos of the car including one of the plate from when my dad owned it.

Who said the B42 ceased to exist?that sthe point im raising the car is NOT b42 when it has B48 updates ie bodywork and any other mods plus the b48 tag - what car is it NOW b42 or B48

It just got updated and acquired a dodgy plate. It's still the same B42.

Racing cars often have multiple identities. Look at Heskeths turning into Williams,yes i agree but if u had say the car as willaims FW 05 can u go build the hesketh that does not "exist" or vice versa- and u forgot the Maguire & Fittipaldi /Wolf !!!:rofl:
Huffakers turning into Finleys, Chevrons turning into Tondellis..stretching the truth here they where always Chevrons Eris was playing silly wotsit for his own ego!!.

And we all know one model can turn into the next as we've discussed March single-seaters and Chevron sports cars before. This looks like a B42 became a B48 for a while and then went back to being a B42. did it? we have 2 cars in uk is B48 with the B42 story and usa the B42 !!

I don't know anything about the ex-Slinn/Bodini B48 but that could well be a car that was a B48 all along.that i sthe UK b48 for sale today car as i said earlier i cant make comments here but make yr own conclsuion and look at WW2 and who changed sides!

what car did yr dad have the B42 or B48

Sorry, B42. See the B42 thread for further info.

I'm struggling to keep up with you here Kevan.

The Tondelli appears to have had different bodywork so that might not have been pure ego. The Hesketh 308C became a Williams with just a coat of paint. The McGuire was a Williams with some minor mods. The Apollon was a Williams in new livery. The Eifelland was a March with different bodywork. It's not a case of recreating a car that doesn't exist - it's a case of reversing some mods and putting the car back in original spec. The original car did not vanish in a puff or purple smoke, it just got modified - like all racing cars do.

which Tondelli? ive seen the b19 as a tondelli but its b19
send me fotos of the "tondelli" car

yes re willaims hesketh Maguires etc i am splitting hairs i know they are the same car but they do get new plates new ID so whats in a name and plate?
with the b42 to 48 its a similar thing
where does 1 draw the line in the sand and make a statement?

i turn up with the Ago B42 car to get fia papers and u turn upsame day with the B48 car
So who gets the prize and who goes home as the weakest link - goodbye?

i turn up with the Ago B42 car to get fia papers and u turn upsame day with the B48 car. So who gets the prize[?]I'll try again!

The B42 that at one stage wore B48-79-04's plate was not B48-79-04. That was a separate car in a separate place.

Both cars would therefore be eligible for FIA Heritage Certificates.

And the best news is that the B42 in question (now a B42, always been a B42!) is (continueing exchange rates allowing) on its way back here.

well Simon has now answered the question that has been burning our brain cells

So somewhere down the line the records are incorrect on the B42 being updated to B48 so who can you trust these days for info factory records or car owners!!:p

I give up!

So what is this then, and is it on the right thread?

'Chevron B42 Ex-Agostini converted at factory to B48 rolling chassis. Offers. Tel no. 07831-206470' - Advert in the current A/S (18/01/2007)

Obviously not the one in the USA - in any sense!

That's Drifty's number isn't it? :)

very droll Allen ring me up and abuse me:rofl:

that is the car for sale:-
ex Italian to uk sold twice B48 rolling chassis with what appears to be agreed as the real factory built and supplied and raced by Trivellato Team B48 79 04 car and not the car in the USA. That is B42 with B48 body etc fitted & B48 79 04 plate fitted to it in 82 ish by Mr Brill and was always a B42 with a minor ID crises

and was always a B42 with a minor ID crisesAt last we agree Edna!

Im sending you the cleaning bill for the dresses with all the excitement and confusion i had an accident!!

Bottom line is B42 is B42 and the B48 for sale is a TRUE un adulterated B48 Trivellato car and will have no disputes for FIA papers & be a worthy car in racing for someone

Surely the Ago B42 and the Stohr Trivellato B48 were completely different cars. Stohr used his from early 79 to mid-season, Ken Brill was out in the Ago B42 in mid 79 too. They can't have been one and the same car.

Clearly they aren't the same car. As Drifty said it's not until 1982 that the Brill B42 gets the B48 'upgrade' [and that's a questionable concept]. Presumably that's when it gets the B48-04 plate, or am I missing something too. While all this upgrading is going on the ex Stohr car is happily minding its own business somewhere else. It's a simple matter of the plate moving over; doesn't mean the two identities are elided. Eventually, it would seem, the Stohr car got its plate back

March did this all the time... [Allen, how the hell are we going to explain what happened to 712M-10, given that even before it was "restored" and the old car thrown away, it wasn't that chassis anyway]; it looks like Brabham did it [hence the mess over BT23-4] and I'm starting to think that Chevron records are the rockiest of the lot.

Chris

Clearly they aren't the same car. As Drifty said it's not until 1982 that the Brill B42 gets the B48 'upgrade' [and that's a questionable concept]. Presumably that's when it gets the B48-04 plate, or am I missing something too. While all this upgrading is going on the ex Stohr car is happily minding its own business somewhere else. It's a simple matter of the plate moving over; doesn't mean the two identities are elided. Eventually, it would seem, the Stohr car got its plate back

March did this all the time... [Allen, how the hell are we going to explain what happened to 712M-10, given that even before it was "restored" and the old car thrown away, it wasn't that chassis anyway]; it looks like Brabham did it [hence the mess over BT23-4] and I'm starting to think that Chevron records are the rockiest of the lot.

Chris

A lot of this was due to the Carnet Regulations as it paid once you had paperwork for a car (e.g. BT23-4) you kept that even if you bought a new chassis or three! In fact Braham would sell a BRAND new car to a European driver, remove the chassis plate from a 'works' car and send over the paperwork relevant to that 'old' chassis number. That way all sorts of duties were avoided.

:rotate:

[Allen, how the hell are we going to explain what happened to 712M-10, given that even before it was "restored" and the old car thrown away, it wasn't that chassis anyway]Still not figured that out yet :)

Carnets tended to be for THAT teams cars not customer cars so Tyrrell 011#1 and 2 would be on carnets and chassis 3 & 6 woul dbe shipped raced etc but plates 1 & 2 would be "on the car" for shipping reasons and put back in mechanics pocket at the other end
Brabham would not do this for their customers that would be ther own problem

Re the Brill B42 getting the B48 tag
That was in theory never off the factory supplied Trivellato team car and is the "innocent" bystander here. Why the tag was fitted using an existing number is the "mystery" when they should have gone for the last number plus 1 to save face but then again in 1982 who gave a monkey`s ?
IF you knew where 04 chassis was, it would not come back to bite you then

Stoopit question I know, but a relevant one perhaps if the plate made up for Brill's modification was a duplicate number done three years after the model was built.
But
Do we know if the plate that Chevron used in 1979 build [ie Derek Bennett era] was identical to that used in 82 once the firm had gone bust and been taken into new ownership? Could we therefore, with B48-04, tell which was an original 79 plate and which the copy.

Chris

I would think a chevron plate is a chevron plate at that time all blanks with chevron bolton address on then stamped up when needed
we know March plates changed shape style colour with the different eras
( wanna buy some!!??)

Did Chevron Scotland re make the plates for the 2 or 3 cars they made?

I would think when Brill B42 was meddled with someone had a plate in their possession and stamped it up 2 pop rivets and away u go
Wanna buy some??

u deserve it just as allen gave to me!!!
read the posts u will see there are 2 cars 1 b42 1 b48 car the 42 had the b48 plate (recent posts then go back 2 or 3 pages for the other Brill B42/48 comments ) added in 82 it is NOT a b48 car
th ereal B48 is the real car
why did Brill fit b48 plate who knows!!

why did Brill fit b48 plate who knows!!Aaargh!!

Brill didn't. That plate went onto it about 1981 or 1982 when Rowan had it.

I have just been flicking thru 1980 AS mag found the september Aurora Oulton Park race report with chassis numbers
chevron b42 05 bob howlings
chevron b45 04 jim crawford
chevron b48 01 warren booth
chevron b48 04 brian robinson ( is this the B42 with the 48 plate on it?
chevron b48 05 roy baker
plus march f2 cars

march 792/2 divina galicia
marcj 802/2 Kim mather

Drifty, some of these are wrong, or you've read them wrong... Robinson B48 was -08, his B42 was -17. Kim's 802 was -22.

Im going home right now to re read the magazine !!

re checked all are correct as per AS sept 25 1980 except the march 802//22 i didnt hit the button for a 2nd time !!

In same mag AMCO has advert for b42 roller for sale

I know they are are for other treads but the same readers follow them all

Project 4 has 802 f2 cars for sale
2 ads for 782/78B cars 1 is ex cheever p4 car
Argo JM6 Guerrero tassin F3 cars for sale
plus the DAF 33 Supersaloon roller

plus hillclimb foto of Galibrath in 742/782 bodied wendy wools march

Robinson B48 DEFINITELY -08!! -04 was the Stohr/Trivellato car. The 782 added was I presume the Charlie Kirby car, which may have gone to Duncan Bain in 82-83, tho' thats only a guess...

yes agree the b48 04is the trivellato Stohr car its odd they used that chassis number unless Robinson borrowed the Rowan Brill car?
did Brian turn the 48 into the GT esprit?
yes Kirby was the March 782 advert;)

Found libre seasonal survey report Dec 1980 it mentions Brian robinson as a chevron b42/b48 driver
is that insinuating he ran a b42 car updated to b48 or the fact he races both models from his stables

Drifty, Brian R did turn his B48 into the Esprit, winter 81-82 I think. I can't see him borrowing the Brill car, at that time he had the 42, the 48, and his mate Tony Dean another 42, so no reason to borrow the Brill car.

Late in '78 he and Dean between them bought 3 of the 4 Briggs/Gethin B42s, numbered, I think, -05, -17, and -19. Warren B bought the 4th, -16. They raced the 42s between them thru' 79 Aurora and Libre.

Brian R bought the B48right at the end of 79, and for 80 used the 42 and 48. 42-05 was sold to Howlings/AMCO who used it in Aurora/Libre thru' 1980.

so in theory the 3 cars for sale will be 3 out of these 4 cars
as Howlings was selling his B42 thats chassis 5 accounted for
without looking up the STD codes its hard to say who was selling which car

On the 782 thread on here, Chris kindly identifies some of the 1980 Phoenix Park Irish Atlantics from the Mondello pics thread. One of these he says is Tom O'Leary in a B48. This is a new one on me, which car is it??

On the 782 thread on here, Chris kindly identifies some of the 1980 Phoenix Park Irish Atlantics from the Mondello pics thread. One of these he says is Tom O'Leary in a B48. This is a new one on me, which car is it??

No-one know anything about the O'Leary B48??? On the pic I mentioned, it has a 'Grange' sticker on it, so I assume its the Brian Rob car, borrowed by O'Leary ?

highly likely as Brian had both his chevrons thru till 85 ish
i recall seeing f2 and GT car side by side at donington i reckon that was 83 or 84

All.

The Huub Rothengatter car B48-79-07 , with it's Alan Docking modified bodywork was used by Australian Andrew Miedecke at Macau , and had a pretty good accident in Andrews hands.
Car returned to Aust. damaged and bodywork discarded , the rest of the car inclunding Hewland FG are still in this form residing in the Southern Highlands of N.S.W.
Neeeds a new tub, otherwise everything is still there less BDA.

Bryan Miller.

The above post is from a few years back. This car / box of parts is back in the UK with its Australian owner.
I'm told the tub is repairable , if anyone is interested please contact me and I can have photo's or contact deatils emailed to you.
Anyone out there who wants a box of bits Chevron B 48 project please contact me as the car is for sale.
There is a comprensive photo collection and a photo af the car in Macau and at Hockenheim.:rotate:

i thought Huub car was run by steve jewell now sold to belgian who has the Rahal car
i know of another b48 sitting in a shed for rebuild will get plate # next week when i am back there seems it last ran in FA trim

I understand that the crashed car was taken to OZ from Macau by Andrew Miedecke who sold it to a friend who is still its present owner.
It is "rumoured" that somebody else was claiming to be selling the same chassis number B48 a while back I understand.
I understand that the provenance of the car can be proven beyond doubt and anyone interested can deal directly with the Australian owner (UK based along with the car at present) if seriously interested parties contact me:rotate:

Elwyn has finally found his way on to the internet.
The history is bulletproof.
Bryan.

Elwyn has the car in Woking, Surrey I understand, where he is working at present.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42843483@N00/698872367/
:rotate:

thats b48 side pod attached to a b40 42 nose cone!
what £ does he expect for the wreck

1 roller here for sale clean tidy less gbox but it has ft200 sitting on the floor £15k

Hi Driftwood,
The details were passed to me and I remeber seeing this thread a long while back.
The car is of no interest to me but I thought someone on TT may be interested or know someone who is. The car ran different side pods and nose cone to what it ran in Euro F2, I'v also been sent a picture of the car at Hockenheim and very recent photo's of all the parts that are for sale and a brief history of the car and contact details for Elwyn Bickley the owner.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42843483@N00/698872345/

If you use the private messaging here and leave me an email address I can forward all the photo's and details as the price is negotiable with the owner and I do not want to upset the site.
On a personal note I know that the gear box and some suspension parts are quite rare and valuable!!!
:rotate:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42843483@N00/698872345/

1

During my converstaion with Warren B last week, he showed me an invoive for his buying the B48 from the works, dated late Sept 1979. The invoice, which I have, is signed by Nigel Dickson, and states clearly "... Chevron B48-79-02..."

Now, where does that leave us...............???????

confused?
need new chassis list created with all comments per car added in so we can see wood from the trees !!

Do we have field observation of the plate on Booth's car in 1980/81, or just the press observation that the car was 'ex Rahal' [meaning probably 01 or 05 where we do have 1979 observations]. Ex Rahal to a journalist in 1980 could be a convenient way of getting rid of him, or the reporter making an assumption [as opposed to saying ex Dauer, which is what we have if the car really was 02]
The other possibility is that the car really was ex Rahal but just happened to be wearing another plate. [Chevron following that happy March practice of switching plates around during end of season rebuilds.]

Chris

Reprise of B48s to de-confuse Drifty.

1: Works car for Rahal. Chassis no noted AF at Donington; noted on Gaillard's car by AF and DR at Donington. Noted AS Oct 1980 on Warren Booth's car, suggesting that the typist hit the wrong key on that invoice...
Noted 1983 on Paul Rhodes's car and described as 'ex Booth'; Steve Jewell 1988 to at least 2005

2: Not observed in Europe, so a good chance that this was the car sold to Le Mans Co in Japan for Naohiro Fujita

3: Docking: Huub Rothengatter observed AF/DR Donington

4: Trivatello: Siegried Stohr observed AF Thruxton; probably Danilo Tesini (Vallelunga) then chassis no noted AS on Brian Robinson in AFX in Oct 1980
This plate or a duplicate worn on B42-78-14 from 1981 or just after.

5: Works: Bobby Rahal spare, chassis no observed AF Thruxton; Gaillard Donington [DR Obs]

6: KWS: Jochen Dauer [F1R] in 1980 [speculative]

7: Docking: Huub Rothengatter (spare) observed AF Donington, later used at Macau and in NZ [observed DMk]

8: Patrese [Macau 78 and Japan late 78] as P car then rebuilt in the production series in typical Chevron style, raced as P in Japan by Rosberg [March 79] Then works:Gaillard/Devaney to Robinson late 1979 [Devaney MN Donington report "The Patrese Macau chassis an updated B42 which Gaillard drove earlier this year] Also Jordan at Phoenix Park, Sept 79 ['Devaney's Donington F2 mount' MN 27.9 Chassis 08 observed AF/DR Donington

09 Unknown

10: RAM: Bernard de Dryver/Arie Luyendijk 1981 Norrie Galbraith [HC] 'ex RAM De Dryver' and chassis no AF notes; f.s AMCO Racing A/S 14.1.82 p. 61 'ex Galbraith'

Chris

and what about later car owners etc
i know 1 ex rahal b48 was owned by simon hadfield raced hscc with 1600 bda sold to worrad who sold to alan de wagter in belgium not sure if its #1 or#5
alan later bought of the steve jewell cars ( Steve had 2 retains 1) i beleive a Huub Rothengater car could be #3 or 7 but Catman said #7 is in pieces in wokin owned by an ozzie? so it must be#3
#4 is in Uk less eng gbox came in from Italy in 1999/2000 like this
was advertsised for sale early 07 as a B42 updated to B48 but this is not correct as the B42 that WAS dressed up as a B48 and wore the b48-02 plate was later turned back into B42-78-14 raced in HSCC races then went to usa in 1998/99 with BMW power and now back in the UK

It is possible that warren Booth had B48 #2 car Chevron could have brought the car back any record of Fujita racing the car in japan f2 in 1980?
If not maybe Chevron took the car back and sold it in sept 79 to warren? unless u think its another car say #1
maybe we need to link the car back perhaps if it is #1 Simon can advise where he bough the car from to see if we get a direct line back to warren?

alan later bought of the steve jewell cars ( Steve had 2 retains 1) i beleive a Huub Rothengater car could be #3 or 7

I can cofirm that Steve Jewell did have two B48s, one of which was an ex-Rothengatter car. When he bought the ex-Rothengatter car it came with partial bodywork which included one side pod. This was painted in stripes of various colours which Steve thought was a test to see which colour looked best but was in fact the car's original livery. From memory the Rothengatter car, which Steve never used in sprints/hillclimbs, was the early chassis number - i.e. 03.

:photo:

well that stacks up with the idea of Ozzie man having #7 in pieces

Given that we have rock solid observations of 1 and 5 as Rahal's cars in 1979 from three different people [Adam Ferrington; Duncan Rabagliatti; Dan Rear] at two different races.
Given that we have AS [Marcus Pye?] noting Booth's car as 01 in 1980, and a description as ex Rahal and given the subsequent observation of what's said to be Booth's car, in subsequent ownership, as 01 [Jeremy Jackson]
I'm pretty convinced that there was a discrepancy between what was typed on Chevron's invoice and the plate on Booth's car.

Chris

well that all makes sense & eay to mestype isntit?

A few additions.
Reprise of B48s to de-confuse Drifty.

1: Works car for Rahal. Chassis no noted AF at Donington; noted on Gaillard's car by AF and DR at Donington. Noted AS Oct 1980 on Warren Booth's car, suggesting that the typist hit the wrong key on that invoice... Warren Booth libre and Atlantic 1981. Noted 1983 on Paul Rhodes's car and described as 'ex Booth'; Steve Jewell 1988 to at least 2005

2: Not observed in Europe, so a good chance that this was the car sold to Le Mans Co in Japan for Naohiro Fujita

3: Docking: Huub Rothengatter observed AF/DR Donington

4: Trivatello: Siegried Stohr observed AF Thruxton; probably Danilo Tesini (Vallelunga) then chassis no noted AS on Brian Robinson in AFX in Oct 1980 [Shome mishtake, shurely?]. This plate or a duplicate worn on B42-78-14 from 1981 or just after.

5: Works: Bobby Rahal spare, chassis no observed AF Thruxton; Gaillard Donington [DR Obs]. Roy Baker Atlantic (1 race Oct 1979) and 1980 Aurora.

6: KWS: Jochen Dauer [F1R] in 1980 [speculative]

7: Docking: Huub Rothengatter (spare) observed AF Donington, later used at Macau and in NZ [observed DMk]. Bob Fearnley UK libre 1980.

8: Patrese [Macau 78 and Japan late 78] as P car then rebuilt in the production series in typical Chevron style, raced as P in Japan by Rosberg [March 79] Then works:Gaillard/Devaney to Robinson late 1979 [Devaney MN Donington report "The Patrese Macau chassis an updated B42 which Gaillard drove earlier this year] Also Jordan at Phoenix Park, Sept 79 ['Devaney's Donington F2 mount' MN 27.9 Chassis 08 observed AF/DR Donington. Brian Robinson Aurora 1979 (one race only Oct 1979), Aurora 1980, libre 1981 (at least one race).

09 Unknown

10: RAM: Bernard de Dryver/Arie Luyendijk 1981 Norrie Galbraith [HC] 'ex RAM De Dryver' and chassis no AF notes; f.s AMCO Racing A/S 14.1.82 p. 61 'ex Galbraith'

Chris

Chassis 4: I agree that the noting of Robinson in 1980 with this chassis is problematic, especially if it's just turned up from Italy, as Drifty suggests.
Could this have been the beginning of the confusion of B42-14 with a duplicate B48-04 plate on it? Did Robinson send a Chevron B42 back for a rebuild as a B48 in 1980, and the new owners made up a new plate for it?
I'm not even suggesting that B42-14 was the car that Robinson had done, but this might have been the moment that the plate was created.

It would be very useful, I think, if we could pool EVERY B42-B48 observation for UK races in 1980-81

Chassis 7: Given that David McKinney noted it in NZ in early 1980, where it finished up very badly damaged, and given the continued presence of the remnant of a B48 with this plate on it in Australia until recently, I'm a bit sceptical of that Fearnley observation in 1980. What's the evidence [or is this indeed another duplicate plate spun out by the new owners on a rebuild of something else entirely]?

Chris

I pretty much agree with all thats on Chris' list, and suspect that the Nigel Dickson invoice is a typo. The Robinson notation as -04, can't be right surely. We know he had -08, -04 was in Italy at least until mid-1980, I can't see it'd have come back to the UK, and anyway even if it had, surely he wouldn't have bought another B48.

The Fearnley 1980 car, which I vaguely recall as being described as ex-Huub, why can't it have been -03? Much more likely than -07 I'd have thought, given that Docking took a car downunder in early 80, and we know that -07 is still there. I presume -03 stayed in Bolton/NorthWest after the 79 season.

And the Steve Jewell 'coloured sidepods', Steve, suggest, I reckon, ex-Rahal, rather than ex-Huub. Rahal had the rainbow coloured Ampex stuff on. So I wonder if Jewell had an ex-Huub car, presumanly -03, and the ex-Rahal/Baker -05?

i have foto of b48#4 ive touched the car and i know who sent the car from italy to UK but i did not read the plate plus i know the man that has the car today and had the long debate over B42/b48 thing pointed him to this thread and he accpted what we have
dont forget Robinson had b42 car as the GT car or was it the B48 as GT car and the other car in Libre spec

Chassis 7: Given that David McKinney noted it in NZ in early 1980, where it finished up very badly damaged, and given the continued presence of the remnant of a B48 with this plate on it in Australia until recently, I'm a bit sceptical of that Fearnley observation in 1980. What's the evidence ?

Here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.asp?RaceID=X5FA) and here (http://www.oldracingcars.com/results/result.asp?RaceID=X4CE). Note the quote from Autosport's Aintree report. I have over-assumed on this one I think.

The Fearnley 1980 car, which I vaguely recall as being described as ex-Huub, why can't it have been -03? Much more likely than -07 I'd have thought, given that Docking took a car downunder in early 80, and we know that -07 is still there. I presume -03 stayed in Bolton/NorthWest after the 79 season. Good point. I agree.

Allen

1 major telling point is the hart 420R fitted Steve jewell had 2 cars fitted with harts
the Docko car was then in 1600 bda trim for FA racing