schumacher-hill 94 mpg

Does anyone have a mpg cl;ip of the schumacher-Hill incident of 94.I want to see what the fuss is all about.Please make suer its an mpg,mov or a avi clip and not a wmf,asf or even an avi using audio/video codecs.

http://www.f-1.ru/video/index_e.html

How do you make it load?

By clicking on the screenshot.


This link should take you there:
http://f-1.sovintel.ru:8101/94/adelaide/schum_hill_94.mpg

This russian fellow is getting popular day by day !, Do you know him, RussianFriend ? or does he post here ?

All the fuss is that Schumacher turned in on Hill because he know he was already out. If you get an on-board shot and watch Schumachers hands you'll see what I mean...

Originally posted by Damon
All the fuss is that Schumacher turned in on Hill because he know he was already out. If you get an on-board shot and watch Schumachers hands you'll see what I mean...

Yeah, but if you look from the OUTSIDE, it WOULD appear that he was trying to negotiate the turn, driving an admittedly damaged vehicle.

Was his "intention" to cut Hill off OR hit him? From the available far angle shots, it would appear to be the former rather than the latter.

Surely it must have been Hill's fault. TGF never makes any mistakes and nothing has ever or will ever be his fault.

Hi ttc, I agree with your point in part but does it really matter whether Schumacher was trying to drive into Hill or cut him up? His basic aim was to take Damon Hill out of the race...

Speed,

I got impressed by this guy two, about 1 month ago.
He has a huge movie archive, mainly Formula One, and that includes the 70's. I've downloaded the fatal crash of R. Peterson, wich unfortunately I saw live on TV.
I don't think he posts around here (unless he is RussianFriend !!). All I know is that he is living in Pain now !

Sorry ! I must be missing some keystrokes at my keyboard...

He's living in SPAIN now !

:)

Originally posted by Damon
Hi ttc, I agree with your point in part but does it really matter whether Schumacher was trying to drive into Hill or cut him up? His basic aim was to take Damon Hill out of the race...

No. If you concede the point that it's possible that Schumacher might be having difficulties handling his car with a damaged front suspension, then it could just have easily been Hill whose pushing it too hard, a la RB on RS in Sepang.

And even if you believe that MS should have given way, it is a very likely scenario that his car was giving him enough problem.

BUT, if you believe that MS intentionally turn into Hill, taking the huge risk of manuevering a damaged car and risking flopping over and killing himself, then you have to admit that not only is he one of the most brilliant racers/tacticians, he has to be the most gutsy of them all.

I'm NOT drawing a conclusion. Just pointing to a possibilities of what had really happened.

TTc, there is no way that Schumcher would have died had his car turned over at that speed, look at his crash in Melbourne during practice. 'Gutsy', I'd say stupid and desperate. Schumacher knew his car was too heavily damaged to be able to continue so he took his only remaining means of winning the title.

Agree with Damon. Same as he did to Jacques in Jerez - knew he couldn't beat him legally, so tried the only desperate illegal move he thought would work. Once it worked, once it didn't. The third time ... we'll see.

And I have to disagree (why do we NEVER agree on ANYTHING, Liz!!). How was TGF meant to do a "damage" assesment in the ten seconds or so it took Hill to catch him up, exactly?? If the car WAS damaged on the right front (probably was), how much control would he have had on the turn in to avoid an over anxious Damon?? Why was damon even ATTEMPTING to pass at such a ludicrous point on the track?? Why not wait a couple of coners?? See what the damge was like on the Schumimobile. In on S-bend and a right it's the Brabham straght and, if you take those corners right, even if TGF was not damaged you'd be all over him like a rash and slipstream past.

50:50, racing incident. Blah blah.

Originally posted by Damon
'Gutsy', I'd say stupid and desperate. Schumacher knew his car was too heavily damaged to be able to continue so he took his only remaining means of winning the title.

Damon, I couldn't agree with you more.

Michael simply took Damon off because he was going to pass him. TGF wouls have done EXACTLY the same had the situation been anywhere else.

Schumacher is ready to do ANYTHING to win.

Do I have to remind you that at the begining of the season Senna expressed his concern that the Benetton had some sort of traction control?

The FIA should not have allowed TGF to take part in the first three races of 1995. An at the end of 1997 they should have done the same.

And yet absolutely everyone who is ready to crucify Rubens for the same kind of stupid behaviour still maintains that this is "Michael's Brilliance."

Tristan, I think if you were old enough to watch F1 when Senna and Prost were rivals, you would have supported Senna. :) We are fated to disagree.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Liz

Tristan, I think if you were old enough to watch F1 when Senna and Prost were rivals, you would have supported Senna. :) We are fated to disagree. [/QUOTE

Be fair, senna only ever took out Prost, that was a personal greivance between those two. Schmuacher will take out anyone who's a threat.

Yeahgrrrrrrrrrdontpartronisemeyouschmoegrumblegrumblesulk.........

Erm, that turns out not to be the case. I personally have a FIA 1993 Highlights reel that shows Senna taking out TGF - and TGF in his pits screaming at a pair of his pit crew (who are stifling smiles) that Senna should be banned for doing it.

And to be REALLY fair, the grudge was solely Senna's, as he was convinced that there was a French conspiracy against him due to the fact they wouldn't let him have the side of the track he wanted (i.e. change the start order to suit him) and wouldn't let him get away with making an illegal restart after he and Prost went off. Prost had no grudge against him that caused him to misbehave.

Picky, picky!! You have one example, gimme a break.

Prost also took out Senna. In hindsight I don't think it can be said that any of those were worse than the other (but personal preference of course colours one's opinion).

Well, whether Prost took out Senna (in 1989?) or whether he simply did not allow Senna past when Senna expected him to let him by ("But I am Senna!") is a matter of heated debate and of course depends on which pilot you favour. But Senna certainly TRIED to take Prost out more often than vice versa. (On the other hand, Senna never threatened Prost with death during a TV broadcast.)

But the fact remains that more people believe TGF stole the 1994 WDC than believe he "won" it fairly.

Originally posted by Liz
Agree with Damon. Same as he did to Jacques in Jerez - knew he couldn't beat him legally, so tried the only desperate illegal move he thought would work. Once it worked, once it didn't. The third time ... we'll see.
I'm very sorry, Liz, and I mean this sincerely, but I have to contradict you here. Jerez wasn't the same as Adelaide. I have posted this once before. I watched the Jerez incident many times, several times using freeze frame on my video, and TGF did not just try to bang wheels with Jacques to put him off the track. There were two movements, after the first move towards Jacques, TGF saw the wheels would simply bang side by side and he jerked the steering wheel away from Jacques to aviod the wheel banging, waited till there was an overlap of wheels and then pulled his steering wheel towards the Williams a second time to try to launch the Williams into a roll. That's what made me so mad.
Rubens move was simply a bonehead move, an error of judgement, perhaps tinged with a small degree of stupidity. I didn't see any real malice in it. No, I'm not mad at Rubens anymore, and I only wish he would drive with a little more care.

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
There were two movements, after the first move towards Jacques, TGF saw the wheels would simply bang side by side and he jerked the steering wheel away from Jacques to aviod the wheel banging, waited till there was an overlap of wheels and then pulled his steering wheel towards the Williams a second time to try to launch the Williams into a roll. That's what made me so mad.
You mean like this?

Disclaimer: This is NOT intended to defend MS.

I'm probably totally off, but I've just looked at the video of Jerez 97 repeatedly, and I'm not exactly sure what was wrong with it...

http://f-1.sovintel.ru:8101/97/jerez/jerez97.mpg

It looks, to me that is, that MS was on his racing line and JV was coming out of slipstream and having faster speed.

It seems MS was already steering the car into the corner and JV drove by and that's when the hit occurred.

Ignoring JV car for the moment, would MS hands movements (steering) be any different going into that corner? From the side view, would his line be any different?

Serious questions. Flames will be ignored.

Thanks for the picture ttc. Yes!! Like that. Jacques was fortunate that TGF only hit the side pod and bounced away before the rear wheel of the Williams could ride over the front wheel of the Ferrari. The on board camera shots from TGF's car taken from above the air intake gave a very clear record of the whole incident.

Originally posted by ttc
It looks, to me that is, that MS was on his racing line and JV was coming out of slipstream and having faster speed.

It seems MS was already steering the car into the corner and JV drove by and that's when the hit occurred.

Ignoring JV car for the moment, would MS hands movements (steering) be any different going into that corner? From the side view, would his line be any different?

Serious questions. Flames will be ignored.
These are great videos, but unfortunately I did not get any sound in mine.
Yes, I think TGF's hand movements would have been different had Jacques not been there. The overhead shots gives him away. In fact, after denying any wrong doing initially, TGF admitted he did wrong and apologised for it. The FIA also found him guilty, and docked him all his points for the year, although what difference that made to him, we'll never know - probably nil.

Originally posted by Bononi
Speed,

I got impressed by this guy two, about 1 month ago.
He has a huge movie archive, mainly Formula One, and that includes the 70's. I've downloaded the fatal crash of R. Peterson, wich unfortunately I saw live on TV.
I don't think he posts around here (unless he is RussianFriend !!). All I know is that he is living in Pain now !

I've almost missed this.

No, I'm not this guy (at least because I'm not guy at all). F1-russian project has been existing for 4 years at least. It's not the guy but the very professional team (almost 50 persons). They are situated in Sankt-Peterburg. Their boss - Sergey Zavilevsky lives in SPB too (if his pager number is correct),if you need his contact details, write me.

Marina

I can agree with that sentiment, VB! :) Everyone should drive with more care. No matter what they are driving. And no matter what name is on their helmet. There is one set of rules and it applies equally to everyone.

"But I am Senna" notwithstanding.

Now, see this is my point with Shumi. I'll admit I'm not his greatest fan even if he is Ferrari, but often in this forum and in the media in general, he is unjustly villified and made to seem to look like "the bad guy" all too often.

Was Jerez a little dirty, hmmmmmyyyyyeaaaaaaahhhhalright fair enough. But many people blow incidents involving him, no matter how minor, out of all proportions. For example, those "swerving off the grid" incidents last year. Not pretty, I grant you, but legal, FAIR and not in the least bit dangerous.

...taht being said, another look at that video and... well JV does run VERY wide up the inside doesn't he?? Not the cleanest move I've ever seen now is it??

See what I mean?? Everyone jumps on the Schumi bashing bandwagon, but look at the evidence and it's not so clear cut. I think had this been any other pair of drivers at any other race at any other point in the feild and this would be a "racing incident". Anyone agree??

RussianFriend !

Sorry for this terrible mistake, but your nick doesn't never give me a clue. But Marina ! That's more that I could expect ! Despite the fact I have a sister with the same name, I had a girlfriend once with the same name too.
I just thought he or they live in Spain, because in the FAQ section it is told this way.

Rather to have contact with them, I prefer to know you more :) respectfully !

Oh, phooey, Tristan, the man's a dangerous driver who gets away with it, same as Senna did, because he's got a lot of important people on his side. And a person who habitually makes dangerous moves is bound to be vilified when he makes only stupid or perhaps "daring" moves that otherwise would pass unheeded - because everyone is watching for him to do something dangerous.

If you're looking for a candidate for "poor victim" you'd better look harder.

Bononi, you never miss a trick, do you? ;)

LAY OFF BONONI, I saw her first!!:) :) ;)

Meow!!! Hot chico latinos!!! I may assure you nobody of you had seen me yet....

As the topic descends into anarchy......

See, that's where me and Liz differ. IMO, Schumi has NEVER endangered another driver. Actually, I can't think of ANY driver who ever has. In Jerez, he turned into JV with the intention of stopping him getting past. A bit dirty, yes. Dangerous?? Err.... not really, now is it??

This is why I feel that when the subject of "why people don't like TGF" comes up I often feel that people's judgements get very clouded. When has he EVER pulled a move that could be considered dangerous??

Calling someone dirty is one thing, but calling someone "a danger to others" oversteps the line between reality and exaggeration.

But hey, Liz, we never agree on ANYTHING!! TGF, politics, ketchup or BBQ sauce..... here's to discussion!! CHEERS! :)

Your looking through rose tinted specs. Lift the blinds and take a real look at what Schumachers like. Dangorous is dangorous when a car is flug into the air.

I agree with Liz on many things, but we disagree on some situations, Senna v. Prost being one, and our view on Jacques being another. And now I find myself disagreeing with her on TGF as well.

I actually agree with Tristan here. (WHAT??!! Wait a sec, that can't be right... something's wrong with this picture ;)) I don't see TGF as a particularly dangerous driver. He made IMO one huge bad mistake in his career in terms of unsportsmanlike behaviour, and that was in Jerez '97 when he tried to take out Jacques. That was certainly very unsportsmanlike, but in no way was it dangerous. The worst that could have happened to Jacques would have been that he would have been stranded on the side of the track. The speed and force of impact in that situation was nowhere near any level that could have launched Jacques' car into the air.

Concerning Adelaide '94, I never saw that as an act of unsportsmanlike behaviour from TGF. Damon could have been a little more patient in the situation, but then again that's easy to say from a spectator's point of view. He went for the gap, and they collided. A pure racing accident, simple as that. And you know I'm not a TGF fan.

Originally posted by R
I don't see TGF as a particularly dangerous driver. He made IMO one huge bad mistake in his career in terms of unsportsmanlike behaviour, and that was in Jerez '97 when he tried to take out Jacques. That was certainly very unsportsmanlike, but in no way was it dangerous. The worst that could have happened to Jacques would have been that he would have been stranded on the side of the track. The speed and force of impact in that situation was nowhere near any level that could have launched Jacques' car into the air.



I don't agree with this at all. Had the rear wheel of the Williams ridden over the front wheel of the Ferrari, the Williams would have been launched into the air.
And if TGF had not made such a bungled attempt at a dangerous move, he would not have apologised later, nor would the FIA have stripped him of all his points for the year. No way would he have had to apologise for banging wheels, nor have his points stripped. I guess we will just have to disgree on this behaviour of TGF. I don't suppose that was a dangerous move when he ran Mika into a concrete wall in Macau either. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

...to this day I've never seen that incident in Macau, only photo's. Anyone got a link to an mpeg please?

R, summit's up with you......

Hill later said about the incident that if he had known that TGF was damaged he wouldn't have tried to overtake there. If you miss an opportunity you may never get another. Unfortunately he went too soon.

BTW I didn't know this was such an ancient topic- I just saw it in "Who's online." I didn't trawl though the whole lot just to get at this!:rotate: :bag: :rotate:

I still think that MS went unpunished for his 1994 crassh into Damon Hill.

I agree with R and Tristan there. Not all fair the Jerez incident, but dangerous is exaggerating. And i would think it is unfair because Michael should have conceded that the corner was lost.

Quote VB"I don't agree with this at all. Had the rear wheel of the Williams ridden over the front wheel of the Ferrari, the Williams would have been launched into the air."

Pardon me if i am wrong. But you would have noticed that the rear wheel is much bigger than the front wheel, and that being heavier at the rear. I would think logically, the Williams won't be launched into the air, but the front wheel/suspension of Michael's car would be twisted. And they are in a braking situation, the force would be too small to launch it into the air.

Anyway, looking at the incident again...it doesn't seem that JV himself is too clean does it?

I wsa surprised to see this thread resurrected. Howver, I vowed many months ago that I would never revisit the Adelaide nor Jerez incidents again, so that explains my silence on this thread from now on. :bag:

Other schools of thought...
You could argue that he was over-the-top at Jerez 97, but I (alone, I know) don't buy that:the rules change when the championship is between two guys. Then, with everyone else making way, it is a different sort of race.
Peter Windsor (F1 Racing)

The only thing wrong with what Schumi did at Jerez...was that it didn't work.
Jensen Button

Those moments when a championship is on the line don't come around often. Michael doesn't ram cars every single race and when he did..there was never any real danger.

I think that regarding the Hill n Schuey incident...they should read about it from ATLAS F1, under the court section... arguments there are generally more well argued and presented...bar some troublemakers...and see how the case develop...

Originally posted by drexel
Those moments when a championship is on the line don't come around often. Michael doesn't ram cars every single race and when he did..there was never any real danger.

So you're saying simply because it's a championship deciding race, it's suddenly fine to be taking off opponents who happen to be going for the same title?

Sure, TGF doesn't take off cars every race, but it's those moments when he does that stick in memory, because he usually does it when he's under pressure........

And as for Button's comment concerning Jerez '97, I sincerely hope he never has a chance at a title......

Damon is not the cleanest driver in the world some of the moves that he made in 95 where pretty bad, trying to pass when there was no room (british GP?) and at monza. And Micheal start line tactics, look further down the grid it happens there to but does not get on the TV as much.

I'm enjoying these exchanges! :rotate:

I'm definitely with Damon on Adelaide 94.

And I'm a Senna fan..... nuff said!!

The only thing I have to say about this is that whatever Schumi has done has been done a hundred times before. Or a hundredthousand times. It's racing, sometimes people crash into eachother. If you villify one for it, you'll have to villify 'em all.

And as for the dirty or mean aspect. Sadly that's an aspect of every professional sport. These guys don't just want to win, they must win! There is no sportsmanlike behaviour in professional sports. Not when it matters.

Only Max and Bernie need further proof or admision from Schumacher to disqualiy him in 94. Is so evident.

Oh not this old chesnut being dredged up AGAIN!!

I've said this exact same thing a thousand times on this board, but here I go again....

Was it Shcumi's fault?? Yes. Was it some kind of deliberate take-out?? Debatable. Should Damon have even attempted overtaking on that corner, especially with Schumi's car potentially damaged?? NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS. So, would have Schumi have been expecting such a silly, desperate lunge?? Well... no.... but yes. Therefore should he have been banned?? No. Is it a "racing incident"?? Yes. Was it "dirty"?? Not really. Are they BOTH cretins for what happened?? Yes. The end.

Originally posted by Toth
There is no sportsmanlike behaviour in professional sports. Not when it matters.

Thats why the British are never absolute world beaters :( . We're too nice!!

Lets not go into this again, I think the thread covers all the arguments flying on what is a very voletile subject.

Sorry everyone, I saw a guest reading it in "who's online" and assumed it was a new thread that had taken off without me noticing, and I just dived into it.

Yes valve i mostly agree.There were definitely TWO movements on the steering wheel.Weather it was deliberate or just absolute desperation only micheal can really know.The way i like to say it is that micheals weak spot is that he is prepared to stop anyone passing him when he's DESPARATE.It's a personality fault.So,yes,both events(94&97)were both micheals fault no mater what the motive.

Seeing as he only does things like this when a championship is on the line,i wonder if we'll ever see it happen again-by the time someone can really challenge him for a championship he might be so old & mellow he won't do it next time!!!

THANKS FOR RESPONDING TO MY (sorry for caps) post of last year RWC, but as I said, I'm not going to buy into this argument anymore. I only checked this thread to see which way it was heading and I can see it is heading into the same blind alley. Adios amigos. :bag:

TGF will , as stated above by the enlightened, do whatever it takes to win a WDC. This is why when he starts talking about safety these days, it's all I can do not to shoot my tele and go jump off the Harbour Bridge.

i remember when i had an obsession with downloading clips of key points in F1 history from like 1980, ive got like 100+ clips thats over 200mb!!! :eek: