Do you think the UK could host a top-line single-seater series...? [Archive]

spider

28 Jun 2006, 11:09

My passion and sector of employment is marketing, and I’ve always taken a great interest in that element of motorsport, studying series and how they position and promote themselves. Now, looking at Britain and our flagship series on 2 and 4 wheels, you’re looking at Formula 3 for single-seaters, BTCC for tin-tops and the British Superbike for 2-wheel-action.

In particular the BSB is booming at the moment, attracting Manufacturer backed teams and world class riders.

My question is, like Japan and America is the UK capable of running a top-line single-seater series? I know there have been previous incarnations with British F1/F3000/F2, but personally I believe if the series was correctly put together, in a sexy-GP2-style way, that it would be successful.

British Superbikes has big powerful machinery, the BTCC can attract top touring car talent to these shores and though F3 is all well-and-good, it is a youngsters category.

So could Britain establish a senior top-line powerful single-seater series? As I said, with the fascination surrounding A1’s debut at Brands I believe if properly promoted people would be interested in such a British series akin to Nippon/UK GP2…

Rob29

28 Jun 2006, 12:11

There have been several attempts,but the last one remotely successful was the Aurora F1 in 1979.
Theres a thread about a recent proposal here somewhere,forgotten what it was called but seems to have died anyway.

bella

28 Jun 2006, 12:26

i think it's interesting you mention gp2. in my opinion, gp2 marketing and their corporate identity seems to be aimed more at the drivers and potential drivers (and probably media) than the fans. after all, you can't really ask people to go to a f1 meeting to see gp2, it's just too expensive.

i think the success of a1gp was based mostly on curiosity. the marketing made it out to be a little more than it was, which was fine because the people attracted by the advertising rather than news in the media are the occasional fans who can't identify formula 3 (or for that matter, name gp2). it'd be very difficult to sustain a series on that curiosity, i think the racing would have to be absolutely superb to sustain it, and many many thousands would have to be thrown into the event organisation to make it something people don't forget once the initial curiosity has died down. it's not the motorsport fans that you'd have to worry about, more the vague supporters. prices would have to be fair, and to start with the names would have to be big.

having said that, in the current climate i don't think it's sustainable beyond a season unless serious effort was put into event organisation, entertainment etc. maybe ascar/whatever it's called now shows that there really isn't the market for it, regardless of how you market it.

then again, if you mention the gp2 brand, i think that's strong enough to support a rebranding of formula renault 2.0 to gp3 or whatever it would be called. when interest starts to die out a little, that would probably be a good way to renew interest in it, certainly with the increasingly growing fanbase amongst the f1 going public.

interesting thread, i'll be curious to see what angle others take on this and what everyone thinks :)

Stephen Green

28 Jun 2006, 13:39

An interesting question and an equally interesting reply from Bella.

In my opinion the UK is more than capable in running a major single seater series. However, I think there are lessons to be learnt from past attempts. For any series to be a success, it has to entertain! By that I mean not only the single seater series in question, but everything that forms part of the support package. The main series has to be something that will draw attention to itself through clever marketing of the drivers etc, and also by the cars being something spectators will want to see and listen to. This means that there would have to be a huge budget in place from the outset, surely a problem in itself in the current economic climate?

I believe A1GP had/has the right idea, but that's an international series. Another important factor would be for them to hold race meetings at all the major circuits in the UK/Ireland which is where Nascar went wrong in my opinion. There is no point in attracting paroquial support, it needs to be national.

As for the cars, I would suggest they need to be not only fast, but as loud as the current regulations permit. There needs to be overtaking and close racing for it to attract the publics interest.

I'm sure others will come up with yet more ideas but I believe the main criteria for success have been mentioned above.

AstroBoy

28 Jun 2006, 15:05

I think if British F3 is remarketed better it could fill gap you are talking about.

Look how popular it is at Zandvoort and Macau.

The rounds of the championship need to be promoted as events rather than just another race meeting.

Asian F3 does this and are now starting to get decent spectator numbers (20,000+ at the last event).

They have grid girls, stunt shows, podium celebrations, press conferences, race week media activities, golf tournaments, driver signing sessions, drifting displays, post race concerts, live television, etc, etc.

In my opinion the problem isn't with the cars (F3), it is coming up with the complete package for the fans (and sponsors).

Stephen Green

28 Jun 2006, 15:13

That was the point I was trying to make, we have to ENTERTAIN the viewers and spectators.

e12

28 Jun 2006, 15:28

Also make sure the tech package is economically sustainable. This is where CART/IRL have gone wrong. They are too expensive to run relative to public interest and therefore the amount of that money can be raised through sponsorship.

hotwheels

28 Jun 2006, 15:57

If you look only at the circuits available, Spain or Germany, for example, would be better positioned to host a top series. In fact Spain had the Super Nissan in the past.

I agree that the best thing to do would be to get back to a stronger Brit F3. I do think that the Euroseries is not suppoused to last too long, due to costs and the lack of manufacturers interest these days. So, national champs will be again on spot and British used to have the strongest of them all, mainly due to tradition, several professional teams around and the neighborhood to F1 headquarters.

I would put my mkt money on Brit F3, instead of trying to set up a new series. There is too many competition around and costs would always be a thing to concern.

Very nice thread, BTW!

I think if British F3 is remarketed better it could fill gap you are talking about.

Look how popular it is at Zandvoort and Macau.

The rounds of the championship need to be promoted as events rather than just another race meeting.

Asian F3 does this and are now starting to get decent spectator numbers (20,000+ at the last event).

They have grid girls, stunt shows, podium celebrations, press conferences, race week media activities, golf tournaments, driver signing sessions, drifting displays, post race concerts, live television, etc, etc.

In my opinion the problem isn't with the cars (F3), it is coming up with the complete package for the fans (and sponsors).

Rob29

28 Jun 2006, 16:24

AstroBoy

28 Jun 2006, 16:48

Sorry,but I don't think F3 is powerful enough to be concidered here.Its really a training series of the 3rd division?
If we say divn one is;
F1
IRL
Champcars
A1GP
GP Masters

Then divn2 is;

GP2
F3000masters
EuroF3000
World Series Renault
F.Nippon
F4000
IPS
CC.Atlantic

I'm not sure how you came up with the 'division' theory, but I don't think I would put Formula 3 in a divison below F4000, IPS and Atlantic. Or F3000 for that matter.

Problem in the UK is there are now no race circuits that I would visit as a paying spectator.No facilities,you are pushed too far from the action,and no public transport to get you to and from the remote dumps that are used.

I agree that the facilities are not great, but i believe that if the whole 'show' was improved, you would get bigger spectator numbers. The BTCC got big crowds a few years ago, and the facilities haven't changed much since then.

Turn each round of the championship into an event.

F3 has proven that it can be popular to the fans - Macau, Zandvoort, Asian F3 - it just needs to be promoted correctly.

Rob29

28 Jun 2006, 17:41

I'm not sure how you came up with the 'division' theory, but I don't think I would put Formula 3 in a divison below F4000, IPS and Atlantic. Or F3000 for that matter.

Was based on engine power and size.F1/F2/F3. 2 litres and less looks like the third divn. EuroBOSS could be be more exciting to watch if properly promoted,and we are getting into historic racing here!

Noisy

28 Jun 2006, 17:48

British F3 is enough for Britain.

spider

28 Jun 2006, 18:30

AstroBoy

28 Jun 2006, 18:47

Was based on engine power and size.F1/F2/F3. 2 litres and less looks like the third divn. EuroBOSS could be be more exciting to watch if properly promoted,and we are getting into historic racing here!

Why does it matter if F3 is in your 'division 3'?

Why would engine capacity make it unable to be the top-line open wheel category in the UK?

You have Atlantics in division 2 - they are 2.3L (does 300cc really make much difference), and I would bet an F3 car would be faster in lap times.

You have F4000 in division 2 - they have slower laps times than F3, and are nearly historics

The British Formula Ford Festival used to get big crowds, but they were 1.6 and 2.0L, and still the fans came to watch.

It just has to be packaged as an event and promoted well....

kipper

28 Jun 2006, 21:26

BRITISH GRAND PRIX SERIES

20 cars, £1million entrance fee per team per season.
10 teams, 20 drivers.
Car example: Old Champ Car chassis combined with Cosworth engine
Gets my vote, plus their are soon to be good levels of redundant Lola Champ Cars available.

Circuits:

Brands Hatch GP
Snetterton
Thruxton
Rockingham
Donnington Park
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Silverstone

I suspect that the cars would be too noisy for Combe, whilst one or two other venues may require safety upgrades. That said if the events can pull in a good crowd then I'm sure any reticence to this may diminish.

Promoted through the UK Autosport/Motorsport News press. Terrestrial television coverage, with Richard Hammond, among others picked

I would say that terrestrial TV coverage would be a must; although why stop at Autosport/MN for exposure, adverts in the motoring sections of the weekend papers, plus also local media would help reach a far greater audience.

At each race there will be a launch ceremony. To encourage spectators to attend each round, there will be a GP Series season ticket – 8 rounds for the price of 6, as well as paddock access at each race.

British GP Series support Championship – Porsche Cup GB, British F3 etc?

I think inducements to get spectators to as many events as possible would have positive reprecussions on the number of spectators. Also paddock access (especially if free) would probably be very popular. British F3 would make a good support act, reinforcing the BGP's status as a premier category, plus there may be some progression from F3 into the new series.

The series would be exceedingly expensive to set up and would probably require a good number of individuals to gamble quite large sums on the series succeeding. Whether or not such individuals can be found and are willing to divert such sums into this given the other investment options, plus general unease over the state of the economy is a point that is open to conjecture.

bella

28 Jun 2006, 21:42

i think you'd absolutely have to find a willing investor to kick off all the fanfares, and personally, i'd suggest a year of test running of races and things just to make sure the races are actually interesting. it'd be terrible if say, the cars were actually too wide or big for the circuits. the investor would probably have to front up around say, £6million, which is a lot of money unless you're a big company and you'd get a massive controlling interest in the series. there's not too many individuals in this country who could front up that sort of money happy to lose it.

no, increasingly i'm falling on the side of it not being possible. call me a pessimist, but i wouldn't put that money forward for it.there's no gurantees in terms of spectator numbers, and i'm not convinced how much profit could be made.

edit: i base the £6million on the grounds that teams wouldn't be able to front up the entry fees immediately, in addition to buying the cars, spares, etc etc.

littleman

28 Jun 2006, 22:11

No chance. Modern single-seaters are technically brilliant but utterly boring to watch and ridiculously expensive to run.The paying public aren't stupid.They want close racing,endless overtaking,the odd harmless shunt and hero's to support.The cars should be fast,loud and have more power than the chassis can really handle.The BTCC comes closest to this except the cars are just pitifully slow.How about across between the DTM and Aussie V8's?Single-seaters could support but not headline.

Woolley

29 Jun 2006, 03:01

I'd have said unfortunately not. There's just too much competition for your money these days and what Europe doesn't need is yet another big Single Seater series. But then Stephen's post set me thinking. A1GP has a bit of an image problem as no-one really knows where it sits. The racing was fantastic entertainment, but the drivers were almost all unknown. The target audience would almost certainly have never heard of Robbie Kerr. There's also something of a problem with funding from the rumours abounding. Why not make more cars and sell them for national series. A British A1GP series with the top two drivers going on to represent Britain in the international championship could just be a goer, especially if similar championships happened in other countries. Many European countries could support a series, and some of the countries with less infrastructure could combine - a middle eastern series, a SE Asian series, etc. I know this is not quite the thrust of the original thread, but I suggest that mutually complementary series is the only way national front-line SS cahmpionships could currently prosper.

AstroBoy

29 Jun 2006, 10:51

I agree, I don't think that the ecconomy could sustain a new, major category.

IF they were to introduce a new category though, I don't think the old champcars are the answer. We don't need another 'nothing' cateogry. They look ugly too.

A British A1 Grand Prix Series would be interesting. But I doubt it would happen - not enough money around, and too much competition from GP2, F3000, World Series, etc.

I still believe F3 is the way to go. :)

It's proven and is a global category - they just need to promote the the rounds as events, like they do at Macau, Zandoort, and in Asian F3.

ianpearson

29 Jun 2006, 11:28

[QUOTE=Woolley]Why not make more cars and sell them for national series. A British A1GP series with the top two drivers going on to represent Britain in the international championship could just be a goer, especially if similar championships happened in other countries.QUOTE]

To do this you could also use the "Challange initiative" idea of city/regional sponsored cars, it goes against the grain traditional motorsport but would attract fans from a certain area to cheer on their car, as long as you don't get the punch up a la football after the race it could work.

AstroBoy

29 Jun 2006, 11:38

To do this you could also use the "Challange initiative" idea of city/regional sponsored cars, it goes against the grain traditional motorsport but would attract fans from a certain area to cheer on their car, as long as you don't get the punch up a la football after the race it could work.

A new category like British A1GP would cost huge amounts money to set-up and sustain. So limiting your sponsorship to specific regions wouldn't work.

International A1 Grand Prix is finding that problem - and they are working on an international level.

Good in theory, but in the real world it doesn't work.

Roninho

13 Aug 2006, 00:39

Just found some scribbling down of ideas i had...

BRITISH GRAND PRIX SERIES

20 cars, £1million entrance fee per team per season.
10 teams, 20 drivers.
Car example: Old Champ Car chassis combined with Cosworth engines

Circuits:

Brands Hatch GP
Snetterton
Thruxton
Rockingham
Donnington Park
Oulton Park
Castle Combe
Silverstone

Or have a chassis similar dimensions to existing Formula One car. V10 Judd power. Chassis designed by Lola? Delta Motorsports?

Championship an alternative to Euro F3, and Renault World Series, falling below GP2, and F1 in European Single-seaters

Must be placed above British F3, to be the UK’s premier single-seater championship.

Promoted through the UK Autosport/Motorsport News press. Terrestrial television coverage, with Richard Hammond, among others picked

Teams commit to 3 years to the British GP Series, 10-12 teams for the first season

£2.5 million per team for 3 years.
£25 million for the 10 teams.

Teams such as Carlin Motorsport, Super Nova, David Price Racing, Manor Motorsport, Double R, Hitech Racing, Fortec Racing – racing at the top-level in either the UK, or in the European racing series.

Jordan Grand Prix, along with other ex-Formula One team managers may see the potential in a project that looks to setup a top-level UK single-seater championship.

The sexiness of the series will be enhanced by top UK and European celebrities being invited to each round.

At each race there will be a launch ceremony. To encourage spectators to attend each round, there will be a GP Series season ticket – 8 rounds for the price of 6, as well as paddock access at each race.

British GP Series support Championship – Porsche Cup GB, British F3 etc?

Billboards around the country, and in major cities, along with Radio campaigns, and taking over papers such as the free Metro

Also, who better to be the man, the face behind the series than Lord March? With his contacts list, I'm sure it could be a go-er.

There would need to be a large cash prize for the series victor to entice a decent level of competitor.

If we can establish, through a Spanish Organising Group, a top-line -wheel category suitable for seasoned pro's, why can't we for single-seaters...?
I for one am very interested in the subject of a good o-w serie, and have been thinking of the possibilities for a long time.

There are however a couple of issues with a formula serie:
* Running costs: A technical package above F3-level will cost a lot of money. The gp2-car is imo a great car but i've read that a 2 car team needs 2.5 million euro. Euro3000-seats used to be +- 550.000 euro for 1 car. F3000 like 1.0 million.
* Position of the serie: Is this serie suposed to be a stepping stone to a f1-career for drivers? If it is not seen as such by f1-teams, there will be no young talents with money who buy their seat because it will not help them any further in their career. Imho the problem the superfund euro3000 serie had, talent with money picked F3000 or the world series because it was higher valued by f1-teams.
* manufacturer involvement: Is the serie going to have multiple manufacturers or 1 chassis/engine combo? There isn't a single formula-series in which multiple manufacters has not lead to huge costs. I don't know how it works in BSB, but in worldsuperbike there is a lot of manufacturer involvement but they still manage to attract 30+ competive bikes each race. Somehow it has not happened in formula-racing that multiple manufacturers and low-costs could be combined. And the disadvantage of a single manufacturer is that there is no $-support for teams.
* Action: There has to be enough action on track. Somehow the latest formula cars have allmost all resulted into boring racing. So the technical package has to take care of this.
* race tracks: As far as i know only Silverstone, Brands, Donnington, Rockingham and mondello park are Fia-grade 2 or higher. This grade is necessary for F3000 level racing if i'm not mistaken. Updating other tracks to this level can be very costly.
* tv-coverage: Superfund paid for everything including the live tv-production in the euro3000 championship. Still no decent tv-network wanted to air the races (motors tv ratings don't sell half a million sponsordeals for teams).
As i mentioned earlier running costs will be very high, so there is a very big need for good tv-coverage. I have not seen many series/sports that could land a big deal in their first year. And sunday two o'clock is quite full with big sports. Hard to sell for tv with all this competition.
* Tv-production:And how about tv-production, whatever tv-deal you get, that won't be payed in the first few years. Live tv-production is expensive, especially in motorsports (a circuit is long). CART paid $235.000 on tv-production per race in 2003.

Not trying to picture a very black scenario, just (imo) real issues facing any series.

I do feel that there is room in europe for a serie between F3 and F1 where a combination of young talents aiming for F1 and good career drivers who won't make it in f1 (the wilson's, firman's, mcnish's, etc.) battle it out with each other. However, you'll either need a big investor or a big manufacturer or a big network supporting you, and preferably all three!

Just one more remark: Wouldnt it be wise to have the serie aim at more countries then the UK alone? Like 2 or 3 (f.e. UK & germany, or France, Spain and italy)? That way the serie could still have a big enough presence in a country to be noticed all season long, and there will be more potential sponsors, tv-networks & exposure, public, drivers and tracks.

duke_toaster

22 Aug 2006, 14:10

Roninho

22 Aug 2006, 21:39

Here's an Idea (not intended at a particular country, it would be great UK/Ireland) : Formula 3 Turbo

Formula 3 chassis + 2L turbo road car engines literally straight out of the road car (Subaru engines would be popular) + wider tyres + more downforce. :)
This sounds good, just wondering about the extra downforce (why would you want that?).

Unfortunately the problem isn't finding a technical package, but finding 20+ drivers with money willing to race in this class. Most of the drivers in junior series are trying to make it up to F1 (or at least become a payed driver in a decent serie) and therefor will race in the serie that a) they have the budget for and b) is the best for the route to F1.

You can come up with such a great technical package, if this serie is not perceived as better for the career almost nobody will enter it. Look at the challenge initiative or power car challenge. It promises more races, more power en 200 mph topspeeds for the costs of F3 (with has less races, less power and lower topspeed). So even though the technical package of F3 seems less interesting, British F3 has full fields this year and the challenge is postponed due to no entrants.

luke

22 Aug 2006, 23:21

Its something I have thought about before. But we have the number 1 F3 series in the world. Although the Euro series is gaining some deserving prestiage (sp? sorry)
We have a touring car series that was one of the best infact the best as there was no oposition at the time for most of it. The BTCC you can hardly call the no1 and rightly so. But it is still good and 2nd to the World series in the Europe area...

Peter Wardle

22 Aug 2006, 23:54

Just so you know, The Challenge is alive and well and in the process of raising the money to build the first 20 cars and a few other things. Operating budgets are well less than half F3 and neither drivers nor teams are a problem, but raising the necessary money takes time and a lot of effort.

In the so-called ladder up to F1 there is only one thing that matters - how deep your pockets are. There are NO "series where drivers can earn money" Roninho in the present structure of the sport in single seaters at present which is why its so difficult for talented drivers without vast resources to get anywhere.

Even BTCC only has a small handful of paid drivers, the rest have to find about £300,000 of total loss money for a season, often out of tax paid money that adds up to 40% to the real budgets, whereas the Challenge is fully tax allowable since it can make money for the drivers and teams. This makes an additional huge difference to the real operating costs.

Its a hard world that we are working to fix but it takes time to get it right in a way that will ensure it is sustainable. If you can think of a better way that is actually practical then speak up!

How many of you have ever tried to raise £500,000 to do even one season of F3 without bottomless wallet parents, bearing in mind that there isnt even any worthwhile prize money.

No sponsors these days can get a worthwhile return from the National single seater sport as it is which is why they are staying away and doing more cost effective ways of promoting.

TV is now heavily overrated, normally has to be pre-paid for by the Series and then gets put on at highly unsocial hours for tiny audiences. The merger between TV, computers and telephones is playing havoc with the TV companies and their advertising income so pre-paid or sponsored pogrammes seem the only way they can make enough money these days. It was OK a few years ago but the world has moved on now.

Super Tourer

23 Aug 2006, 12:33

Just found some scribbling down of ideas i had...

BRITISH GRAND PRIX SERIES

20 cars, £1million entrance fee per team per season.
Not a chance in getting this
10 teams, 20 drivers.
DittoCar example: Old Champ Car chassis combined with Cosworth engines
Been done before with ex F3000 cars forming the British F2/F3000 championship back in the early 90's. Struggled for entries and drivers with budgets.
Circuits:

Brands Hatch GP - cars would be too fast for GP circuit in its current form
Snetterton - probably ditto
Thruxton
Rockingham
Donnington Park
Oulton Park
Castle Combe - see above
Silverstone

Or have a chassis similar dimensions to existing Formula One car. V10 Judd power. Chassis designed by Lola? Delta Motorsports? Non-starter - no manufacturer would design and build spec cars for a new series like this without manufacturer backing.

Championship an alternative to Euro F3, and Renault World Series, falling below GP2, and F1 in European Single-seaters. Very unlikely to happen, Euro series is well established as a proving ground and has big manufacturer support.

Must be placed above British F3, to be the UK’s premier single-seater championship. Been tried before - see 1st point! Running big engined cars in a national series is only really the remit of well funded 'gentleman' drivers. Zero teams would sign up to running cars above F3 in the UK - IMO

Promoted through the UK Autosport/Motorsport News press. Terrestrial television coverage, with Richard Hammond, among others picked. Be lucky to get any TV coverage at all let alone terrestrial, more likely is that the promoter would have to pay the productions costs in order for a satellite channel to show it at all - and on a revolving schedule.

Teams commit to 3 years to the British GP Series, 10-12 teams for the first season. Will not happen without guaranteed funding from the promoter - no team will commit to this.

£2.5 million per team for 3 years.
£25 million for the 10 teams.

Teams such as Carlin Motorsport, Super Nova, David Price Racing, Manor Motorsport, Double R, Hitech Racing, Fortec Racing – racing at the top-level in either the UK, or in the European racing series.

Jordan Grand Prix, along with other ex-Formula One team managers may see the potential in a project that looks to setup a top-level UK single-seater championship. Why?

The sexiness of the series will be enhanced by top UK and European celebrities being invited to each round. Inviting them to Snett and Castle Combe??? Why should they, and many will only come if you pay them - who will pay and why?

At each race there will be a launch ceremony. To encourage spectators to attend each round, there will be a GP Series season ticket – 8 rounds for the price of 6, as well as paddock access at each race.

British GP Series support Championship – Porsche Cup GB, British F3 etc?

Billboards around the country, and in major cities, along with Radio campaigns, and taking over papers such as the free Metro . Who will pay for this - the promoter????

Also, who better to be the man, the face behind the series than Lord March? With his contacts list, I'm sure it could be a go-er. Busy with Goodwood surely, and to be honest how many peoplemoutside of historic racing will even know who he is?

There would need to be a large cash prize for the series victor to entice a decent level of competitor.From where?

If we can establish, through a Spanish Organising Group, a top-line -wheel category suitable for seasoned pro's, why can't we for single-seaters...?

Remember British Formula F2/3000 series in it's latter years, running ex F3000 cars. The series struggled for entrants and often had poor grids and dull races. Sorry mate, IMO this is a total non-starter, the economics of it will never, ever stack up. The promoter for the series would need a stack of money to fund it and would see it burn before their eyes. A big engine UK Championship of the type you describe would fall at the first.

To put this into perspective, A1GP lost $212M in it's first year, although a 'world series', scale back those figures and you can see how much a national series would cost....even 5% of that is $10M and I can't see many promoters or teams willing to lose that sort of money.

Speedblood

23 Aug 2006, 15:15

Super Tourer

23 Aug 2006, 15:41

National Top line single seater series.
As great an idea as it seems, realistically it is a bit too much.

As it it's been said before there are too many factors that would prevent it from happening.

The best bet (IMO) would be to promote something like EuroBOSS. I know that does not get the coverage it deserves. On occasions when I've read Autosport or Motorsport news, their is usually one reference to the race just been, and is not in the international section. Usually national series in distant countries get more exposure. WHY?!

EuroBOSS has plenty of potential, it can make use of tons of "hand me down" cars from all sorts of series. Maybe only Silverstone, Donington, Mondello and Rockingham could host the races though as most other
tracks would either not have the safety requirements or in the case of Brands, a noise restriction. Still that would be a problem for any national series.

Well that's what I think, but other people may have better answers!

Speedblood

EuroBOSS is not a career series, its a series for wealthy guys to run their relatively modern (compared to TGP) F1 cars. This is a world apart from a big engined national championship along the lines the original poster was suggesting.

National Championship racing needs to end at F3 level, as driver you then progress to Euro F3 or WSR to get experience of other circuits and competitors. Moving up from British F3 to British F2 or whatever we would call it, will not add anything much to a drivers experience compared to racing abroad against different competiton.

Roninho

23 Aug 2006, 16:27

Super Tourer,
imo the only way such a national serie will succeed if it is considered a serie where drivers (& teams) can make a living. Just like this is possible in touring cars and sportcars. I totally agree that it makes no sence for a young talent to move up from national f3 to something like a national 'f2'-class when there are better alternatives for your career (gp2, world series, maybe eurof3). So the only reason to move up to such a serie would be the possibility to make money on it.

So the question is how come this is possible for bunch of drivers in etcc, dtm, btcc, sportcars, etc. and not in any formula serie (apart from F1 obviously)?
Simple, because these series have manufacturer involvement, tv-coverage with decent ratings, attendance and promotion all resulting in sponsors and $. Just subtract mercedes's and audi's involvement in DTM, and the serie will be death (or almost) pretty soon, because there isn't enough money around. I guess the only serie that could survive without huge manufactur involvement is le-mans, because this will attract fans & coverage anyhow.

As for Euroboss. Imo it doesn't really matter that much what the cars would be (euroboss, challengecar, f3 with turbopower, ex-champcars, etc.) for public and sponsors to get interested in this series in the long run, as long as there is money available to have tv-coverage, cars, promotion, etc. And so one returns where it all starts: money.

And i think you said it best: Why? Who would pay for this? And why?
Peter Wardle thinks he has found a solution for all this, and i wish him all the best. I for one remain sceptic and would not enter such a serie before it has proven itself as being the solution.

Peter Wardle

23 Aug 2006, 18:07

Spot on with a lot of that Roninho.

You are actually overlooking something though. Outside F1, and to some extent BTCC, National motor racing in this country is already effectively invisible for 99% of the population.

The public therefore have effectively zero knowledge of all the stuff like F3 etc. that us enthusiasts know a bit about, and I really mean zero. In a recent survey it was discovered that most of the people in Darlington thought the Croft closed years ago! They have also been progressively turned off by the over hyped promotion and advertising that promises action and has only delivered boring processions for years, so any word of mouth promotion has been powerfully negative. The result is audiences that would have fourth division football clubs running for the liquidators and a string of highly experienced talented drivers being forced out of the sport just because their parents were guilty of running out of money, some of whom having mortgaged the family home!

The public will only wake up to what they see is great entertainment at the top of the any sport, let alone ours, so we started with a clean sheet of paper instead trying to fit anything around what exists (and has become a real turnoff to everyone except a few very wealthy people who can afford it).

The Challenge has been designed to appeal to the 99% (well probably a bit less a first...) rather than the few current enthusiasts who are too few to actually keep the sport alive.

We are also going out into consumer land to educate and promote it in a way that is impossible for any other series and most other sports. Either we are right and a lot of fresh money will come into our sport over the next few years or we are wrong and it will fail. Time will tell.

Needless to say that we wouldn't be risking a sizable amount of time and money if we thought for a minute we were wrong. We are putting our money where our mouth's are.

Anyone else want to join in?

strider

23 Aug 2006, 18:25

Anyone else getting a serious feeling of déjà vu?

Suze

23 Aug 2006, 18:37

Strangely yes, I was thinking along similar lines....guess it will be coming next year then ;)

Super Tourer

23 Aug 2006, 18:53

Andrew Kitson

23 Aug 2006, 20:14

bella

23 Aug 2006, 20:31

if this turns into another challenge thread, i will close it. and i don't want to close a good discussion.

duke_toaster

23 Aug 2006, 21:13

Remember that - the one-make BMW county series in the late 70s? Cambs v Berks v Yorkshire v Lancs v Essex etc.. There have been many false starts and Euroboss is an example that crowds are not going to flock in despite the lure of fast F1 style machinery.

Cracking idea :)

No 4

23 Aug 2006, 21:45

Just to establish my credentials relative to the promotion of brands, I have created, developed and extended brands of all types, in both the UK and around the world. Household names that I have worked with include Finlandia, Carlsberg, Domestos, Tia Maria, Fat Face, Heinz and many more.

In my opinion, there is a fundemental question motorsport needs to ask itself, namely what does it want to be? Does it want to be an activity that is primarily for the benefit of drivers and enthusiasts, or does it want to an activity that appeals to the masses?

Personally I think there is only one option, i.e. an activity for the masses, as if the sport does not take this route, it will revert to being a minority sport and continue to decline.

Mass appeal requires any brand to have an ownable and sustainable point of difference, that sets it apart in the market place. It also means customers must come first at every level - they must be given a first-class product, a quality experience and, crucially, value for money.

Key to this is an acceptance that sporting integrity and entertainment are not in conflict. Look at the way last summers Ashes series gripped the nation, first-class sport, first-class entertainment.

However, in my opinion, motorsport will never move forward as long the many vested interests within in it are allowed equal airtime. What is needed is a strong visionary leader, with an absolute mandate to bring the sport kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Think what Clive Woodward did for English rugby, motorsport needs the same.

Rob29

24 Aug 2006, 10:38

A great idea but one I fear will never happen. Noise is the biggest problem closely followed by cash. Every circuit in the land is having enormous 'noise' problems - even somewhere like Snett in the middle of nowhere. Until the majority win against the minority that complain in this country, things will not change. The days of contemporary big banger single seaters are surely gone?

The idea of a British A1-GP sounds interesting - call it the 'county championship'!
Remember that - the one-make BMW county series in the late 70s? Cambs v Berks v Yorkshire v Lancs v Essex etc.. There have been many false starts and Euroboss is an example that crowds are not going to flock in despite the lure of fast F1 style machinery.I hope that is not the case Andrew.I would say that cash is a much more important problem than noise.Though local residents may have a claim if circuits are used every day of the week for boy racer track days,whereas they were only used Saturdays & Bank Holidays when they moved in?
Euroboss problem is only people who can afford it are rich gentleman drivers.If and when Sarah Kavanagh and Jodie Hemming reappear I might have some interest.
I would like to see a city centre based championship with a round in each major UK city.

ss_collins

24 Aug 2006, 12:23

Now thats makin sense - unfortunatley it can't happen in the UK with the Road Traffic Act - best we will get for now are the demo runs (or Hyde Park).

Problem is that this is all very academic - there simply aint enough money in the sport. Also theres something of a situation that has not been raised here - a big single seater series to entertain the fans - well to entertain the fans you need entertaining drivers - and in the UK up coming single seater drivers are dull as ditchwater. None of them have individuality or personality (spiky hair with highlights does not qualify as either), a entertaining series would need some proper stars. It also should not be one make, keep the technical interest going. It needs to be wacky races - Dick Dastardly, Penelope Pitstop, Slagg Bros. etc.. not a grid full of Peter Perfects in identical Turbo Terrifics.
You need some Pat Pendings with Convert-a-Cars, and some cash strapped plucky lads with a cobbled together hack that they valliantly campaign against the odds (guarantee that they will be the most popluar team). Stop it from falling into the we must be professional (PR assisted) world of pro single seaters.

Comments about branding from firms like Hienz are spot on - can you imagine the Hienz Beanmobile (livery is just beans!) racing against the Wibbly Wobbly Wonder special? (or am I just thinking of NASCAR?)

DSM

24 Aug 2006, 12:35

Rob29

24 Aug 2006, 13:38

Now thats makin sense - unfortunatley it can't happen in the UK with the Road Traffic Act - best we will get for now are the demo runs (or Hyde Park).

Can be done,as was proved with the Birmingham Superprix,and a couple of rallies I believe. I also remember going to kart racing in the streets of Hull.
What is needed is the Road Racing Act to to promoted in parliament to avoid the need for a separate Act for each event.

ADEE

24 Aug 2006, 13:39

...

In my opinion, there is a fundemental question motorsport needs to ask itself, namely what does it want to be? Does it want to be an activity that is primarily for the benefit of drivers and enthusiasts, or does it want to an activity that appeals to the masses?
...
However, in my opinion, motorsport will never move forward as long the many vested interests within in it are allowed equal airtime. What is needed is a strong visionary leader, with an absolute mandate to bring the sport kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Think what Clive Woodward did for English rugby, motorsport needs the same.

Totaly agree with the analysis. Look at what has worked over the years and you will find a 'strong visionary leader': F1 - bernie; WRC - dave richards; BTCC in late '80s/early '90s - alan gow(?). unfortunately we are a bit short of those at the moment - not too many popping their heads up at the MSA, BRSCC, BARC etc... in fact interesting that you mention woodward & rugby & then heinz gets mentioned - put the two together and you have will carling's 57 old f*rts reference...draw your own inferences!

Not sure i agree with your opinion that m'sport needs just to appeal to the masses - there is room for both streams to co-exist but they MUST do as you suggest and know what avenue they are going down. it is no use a little club meet trying to 'appeal to the masses' - if there were a dozen paying spectators at Pembrey last weekend for instance i'd be amazed. these sorts of events should be organised by the competitors for the competitors - look at the success of james tucker & britcar to see that works. then focus on a couple of main pro & semi-pro series for the fans.

so what needs to happen... 1. MSA stop proliferation of series & amalgamate / simplify classes etc. 2. clubs focus on either pro series for spectators or clubbies for participants, not both. 3. MSA focus on reducing costs for ALL series & introducing green initaitves.

then we may get some entreprenurial talent to help promote this fantastic sport!

ss_collins

24 Aug 2006, 14:46

Your comment about current racers is rather sweeping and does nothing but illustrate that you don't know many!

As for the rest of your post, which I appreciate is not serious, why not just go banger racing? But that won't work either, judging from our local track, which struggles to keep going with exactly your formula!!

We can agree to differ on the drivers there! Though I will say this - if they have personality and individuality then why do they never show it?

ADEE agree with you there - but the MSA will not act - they don't see it as being their remit.

In the current climate I cannot see a road racing act being passed.

Funny - last time I looked the short oval promoters were rolling in it.

kipper

24 Aug 2006, 21:58

Totaly agree with the analysis. Look at what has worked over the years and you will find a 'strong visionary leader': F1 - bernie; WRC - dave richards; BTCC in late '80s/early '90s - alan gow(?). unfortunately we are a bit short of those at the moment - not too many popping their heads up at the MSA, BRSCC, BARC etc... in fact interesting that you mention woodward & rugby & then heinz gets mentioned - put the two together and you have will carling's 57 old f*rts reference...draw your own inferences!
I'd agree that for a single seater series such as those described within the context of this thread would require someone of entrepreneurial vision. Of those quoted above, they have all managed to make themselves a good amount of money for themselves as a result of their efforts. I have my doubts that anyone could get such a series off the ground due to the fact that in the UK, the bulk of the attention (and money) is levied towards F1 and the BTCC so in effect anyone wishing to create a new series would be fighting for a space in what is already a crowded market place. In addition, an entrepreneur would need probably need to develop a whole new motor racing package to compete against the BTCC and its support races in generating revenue.

so what needs to happen... 1. MSA stop proliferation of series & amalgamate / simplify classes etc. 2. clubs focus on either pro series for spectators or clubbies for participants, not both. 3. MSA focus on reducing costs for ALL series & introducing green initaitves.
There are a couple of problems with this in that as I understand it the MSA can only control series that feature 'championship' in their title. Therefore, I don't think that the MSA are in a position to prevent competitions that are called Challenges, Series or Cups. I don't also see the benefit of clubs focusing on either Club or Professional series, for whilst some clubs such as the 750MC or HSCC fit nicely into this framework, others such as the BARC don't. For instance, should they jetison the BTCC and F3 championships and focus on the likes of Pick Ups, Track and Race Saloons and Formula Renault BARC. In all cases each championship can be argued to being succesful, so why should clubs be forced to give up some of their best championships?

Therefore of the three suggestions, I'd argue that number three is probably the most desirable course of action. So perhaps the MSA should concentrate on promoting the sport to a wider audience (such as environmentally friendly elements or attempting to organise a street race), which is probably the best way of getting more spectators to the venue. If these were to focus on the higher echelons of the sport (such as BTCC or a new single seater championship), then it is possible that should a spectator enjoy what they see, they'll make return visits and maybe contemplate attending a club event.

duke_toaster

26 Aug 2006, 17:59

I agree that motorsport needs someone to bring it in to the 21st century.

Here's another idea of mine, but this would be better to be a European Championship (so it's not totally in the rules): The Million Euro Series.

Simple : A 5 race schedule. Formula 3 cars with 2L turbo road car engines, but these would be one make. This sounds odd, but this is how several sports leagues in the USA run/ran (the XFL did, but this wasn't what brought it down) : it would be a single entity championship. All 20 of the drivers are under contract to the league. Also, a lottery would take place at the start of the season to put the drivers in teams. The driver salaries would be standardised at around €15,000 a race (the schedule would be designed to allow drivers to compete in F3/GP2/A1GP as well. However there is a catch: there is €1,000,000 (yes, you have read right, 1 million euros) winner-takes-all prize money for the driver in each of the 5 races in the season. This would motivate almost wreckless driving at the front.

It would be a single entity league : which could be the problem. It could only work that way really with the standardised salaries.

Also, how's about racing on Wednesdays and under floodlights?

Roninho

26 Aug 2006, 23:40

Again: who is going to pay for this. You're talking about paying for running 20 f3+cars for 5 races (20x 100k), paying drivers (20x90k), paying to hold the races & rent the track (5x50k), and 1 million in purses. Add in promotion and you're over 5 million, and you don't even have the tv-production expenses and tv-time buys into that figure.

The formula you described sounds like a great race to watch, but as i said before it isn't a problem to develop an interesting formula.

Super Tourer

27 Aug 2006, 18:16

kipper

27 Aug 2006, 19:06

Sorry, complete non-starter there is no way a National or even an International series could sustain that financial model without serious manufacturer backing.
I'd agree that paying out €5 million in prize money, plus €1.5 million (20 drivers for 5 races at €15,000) in wages would make such a scheme unsustainable and a very risky investment in a series which may fizzle out after only a year or two should it not prove popular.

Lottery for teams, why would drivers go for that?
It may not prove to be a problem if all the teams have had comparable amounts of success and facilities, however recruiting enough may prove to be difficult. Also of course, financing a team could prove difficult as there may be insufficient time to obtain enough sponsorship so the running costs may need to be supplied by the series backer.

the schedule would be designed to allow drivers to compete in F3/GP2/A1GP as well.
The problem with obtaining drivers from this level is whether they would have the profile to attract enough media attention to warrant a backer providing substantial amounts of financial support. In my view the idea is a good one in terms of the quality of racing it would probably provide, but that the realities of implementing it make it unworkable.