maltafan 30 Jun 2006, 18:38 Towards the end of the Montreal race, Kimi Raikonnen got stuck behing 2 lapped drivers under yellow flag circumstances, thus giving Alonso an 4 second lead.
Do you think that drivers should be allowed to overtake lapped drivers under yellow flag conditions? Does it make sense for the 2nd driver to be stuck behind 2 backmarkers because of the yellow flag.
Read more here (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/27830/)
Knowlesy 30 Jun 2006, 18:42 It is frustrating, but only fair I feel.
Alonso has lapped the cars, Kimi hasn't. So why should Fernando lose out by having Kimi moved directly behind him. It's bad enough he has lost a thirty second lead!
Dave Brand 30 Jun 2006, 18:59 Do you think that drivers should be allowed to overtake lapped drivers under yellow flag conditions? Does it make sense for the 2nd driver to be stuck behind 2 backmarkers because of the yellow flag.
Do you understand what the yellow flag means? It means that there is a hazard on the track & drivers must be prepared to stop if necessary. The safety of marshals, etc., working trackside & of the drivers themselves is much more important than a few seconds lost or gained...:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Under local yellow, definately NO. The rule is there for the safety of workers. Under safety car conditions, again no, unless in controlled shuffling of the pack -- so go full course, clear up the incident, then spend a lap getting the backmarkers out of the way, then go green. That could work, but that's the only way it could work.
Even then -- do you want to? The sfety car freezes the race where it was -- why give the trailing driver free passes past backmarkers? It could have been the case that the leader lost time spending 2 laps going past -- why give the second place car an advantage?
Luck of the draw -- leave it the way it is.
Ian Sowman 30 Jun 2006, 19:34 I think the original poster is referring specifically to situations where the safety car has been deployed and not in normal yellow flag conditions, although this isn't very clear.
Do you understand what the yellow flag means? It means that there is a hazard on the blah blah blah blah... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Did you follow the link to read the article, or did you just assume you knew best?
AdamAshmore 30 Jun 2006, 20:04 Do you understand what the yellow flag means?
I think (or rather I hope) that there is a translation problem here! I think the situation isn't referring to yellow flags. Which, obviously, there should not be any overtaking under at all, ever. I think this is referring to a SC situation after the incident that causes the full course yellow (in US speak) has been dealt with. It is changing the order of the pack before the end of the safety car.
I am against it. If you have two back markers between you then you should have overtaken them before the yellow like the leader had. You have already gained from the SC by getting all that time back.
However I do think it was daft how the first lapped car behind Alonso didn't get a move on at the restart and thus held Raikkonen up. They need to be told to get on with it.
AdamAshmore 30 Jun 2006, 20:06 Thread title changed to reflect the topic more accurately
Here is another link for those Autosport subscribers: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/52814
It may be frustrating for a driver behind to have to overtake lapped cars before getting to fight with the leader after a safety car period, however, I feel that no rule changes should be implemented regarding this. If it were to be introduced for the first and second placed runners, then why not the third and fourth placed? This would probably result in a need to get all entrant on the lead lap together, then those a lap behind following them, then drivers two laps down thereafter and so on. With all the overtaking that would need to take place, I think it would probably negate the purpose of a safety car. Also it could be argued that by leaving lapped cars in order, then it offers some compensation to those who may have seen big leads disapeer.
...mimic American racing rules...
Haven't seen that done in IRL/CART myself? Is it a NASCAR thing?
Racer Scott 30 Jun 2006, 22:07 Totally unfair to give them a lap back just for the sake of giving the second place man a run on the leader.
Because that's what this is about, isn't it - introducing an artificial closeness to the race...
goodhorsehymn 30 Jun 2006, 22:29 I understand your point there...but F1 is supposed to be thinking of the fans, and working out how to 'make the show better'. It would certainly help to do that. But yes, its perhaps not fair on some drivers.
AdamAshmore 30 Jun 2006, 22:36 Show? Or Sport?
Is the principle aim to entertain the fans (falsely?) or to find the fastest?
If it entertains along the way then great, but let us do it naturally. If we force it then it isn't real sport or even the best entertainment. If we do it falsely then we can never have the ultimate highs and we are settling for a mediocre middle ground.
To improve the sport (and show) we should concentrate on the cars and the racing. We should not help those who are behind, we should not penalise those who have done well to lead. Those who demonstrate the skill we crave to see.
It is not meant to be easy to beat the best.
BootsOntheSide 30 Jun 2006, 22:38 Presumably maltafan also thinks that, when a soccer team has a player sent off, the score should be reset to 0-0, so as to make it 'fairer' for the 10 players they have left? Alonso had lapped 2 extra cars and deserved an advantage from that. NASCAR is welcome to rules designed to contrieve a show, but F1 should never lower itself to that.
Knowlesy 30 Jun 2006, 22:40 And that is spot on, Adam.
It's a lot more interesting when the competitors get bunched up together for a restart. F1 has a chronic problem with providing excitement, moving lapped cars out of the way would improve it.
Knowlesy 30 Jun 2006, 22:54 Oh yes, immeasurably.
Perhaps they could bring out the pace car at five lap intervals as well, to provide a-thrill-a-second.
Racer Scott 1 Jul 2006, 00:40 It's funny how these things are so-often knee-jerk.
A slow Jarno Trulli at a restart in Canada and suddenly people want the rules overhauled.
Knowlesy 1 Jul 2006, 00:48 Yes. I mean, it seems the race was much more open until the safety car came out and gave Jarno Trulli the chance to wreck everything. ;)
In fact, seriously, we got a position change out of the safety car. Michael got past Kimi after all.
Racer Scott 1 Jul 2006, 00:50 Absolutely - a safety car ultimately changed the order of the top three (and fooled some people into thinking Ferrari were on the pace ;) )
enemy-ace 1 Jul 2006, 00:55 In regards to Champ Car I like the idea. But SC periods or full-course yellows are more prevelant in American racing and thus this type of situation is accounted for in the race strategy.
In regards to F1 I am against the idea. A SC period is pretty rare so for some driver it would be like winning the lottery.
I have to say however at the time of the race I did wish they would move the backmarkers out of the way. However after my head cleared ;), I am glad they didn't. Alonso fully deserved the win and it would have cheapened the race IMO, and I am a Maclaren supporter.
BootsOntheSide 1 Jul 2006, 11:18 I can't believe some people are in favour of this idea. there are much better non-artificial ways to increase the excitement in races, changing the aerodynamics or using less Tilkerings for example. Alonso had 2 cars in between him because he'd lapped them and Kimi hadn't. Imagine a situation where a team-mate of the 2nd place driver intentionally crashes to trigger a safety car, so as to increase his team-mate's chance of snatching victory.
Dave Brand 1 Jul 2006, 13:19 Did you follow the link to read the article,
Yes I did; whatever the article says or doesn't say, I stand by my opinion that overtaking under yellow flags or behind the safety car, for whatever reason, should not be allowed.
or did you just assume you knew best?
Do you really think comments like that, & changing my quote to 'blah blah blah....' are really the stuff of mature, considered debate? By all means disagree with my comments, but don't sink to the level of, however mild, attacks on me as the poster. (And yes, to save anyone commenting, my original post was possibly too personal!)
"It is not meant to be easy to beat the best".
Yes,spot on Adam (even if it is a little bit hard to take).:)
ASCII Man 1 Jul 2006, 13:38 How about introducing a 'double row' system like in NASCAR (Oh my God!), where cars on the lead lap stay right and the lapped cars stay left of the track?
Absolutely - a safety car ultimately changed the order of the top three (and fooled some people into thinking Ferrari were on the pace ;) )
So what should happen is that on the lap that the safety car comes in all the drivers should get into a postion where they are at the same gap to each other as when the safety car came out.That,to me,would be how it should be done.The safety car should not give 'any' advantage.
AdamAshmore 1 Jul 2006, 14:28 I like that idea. Too difficult to do, but in an ideal world...
I like that idea. Too difficult to do, but in an ideal world...
This is Formula one,nothing should be too difficult.:)
The gaps wouldn't have to be exact,plus or minus a second or two maybe.
It can't be right that MS is 30 seconds behind the leader and then suddenly is right there with him!
slightly off topic, but check the saftey car and medical car totally going for it at Indy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pCF6xEVobo
1:59.00 or something, not bad!
AdamAshmore 2 Jul 2006, 10:26 Cool. Interestingly they seem to be testing the timing too. All four of them are quicker that RSC? ;)
That was good,could be the start of a new race series,where the safety car and the medics are already out on track and maybe there could could be another car with marshalls in that can be 'dropped off' when necessary.:)
johnh875 2 Jul 2006, 16:51 So what should happen is that on the lap that the safety car comes in all the drivers should get into a postion where they are at the same gap to each other as when the safety car came out.That,to me,would be how it should be done.The safety car should not give 'any' advantage.
Surely it would be technically possible to have a link from race control to the ecu that activates a speed limiter, like the pit lane limiter which could be applied in the relevant sector affected by the incident or the whole track. This would also ensure the drivers actually slow down under yellows! If you look at speedway cars they have a big yellow light on the dash that is activated when there is a yellow flag.
Surely it would be technically possible to have a link from race control to the ecu that activates a speed limiter, like the pit lane limiter which could be applied in the relevant sector affected by the incident or the whole track. This would also ensure the drivers actually slow down under yellows! If you look at speedway cars they have a big yellow light on the dash that is activated when there is a yellow flag.
Yes,good idea.......like i said,it's F1,so anything is possible.:)
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