Williams will they ever return to the glory days ?

I have been a big fan of Williams over the years and who can not admire Frank Williams and Patrick Head for what they have contributed to motor racing.

But Williams have been so off colour the past few years. Their last win was in 2004 and they havent come close since then. Their last championship was almost 9 years ago. 9 years!! Their last championship challenger came in 03 some 3 years ago. And their last podium was Nurburgring 05 almost a year ago if i am not mistaken. Last weekend was even more damning... 9 finishers and the Williams car not even in the points finishing behind a STR.
This year there have had flashes but nothing more. At Monaco they were certainly capable of a winning but it seems that was a one off. Even last year they were strong at Monaco so maybe they are suited to the circuit.

Even Mclaren had their years in the wilderness but somehow I always got the feeling that they would rise again which they did. With Williams i am just not sure. Big name designers and engineers and sponsors are not linked with Williams anymore.
Sam Michael was appointed as technical director but apart from a win after a few races in charge he hasnt done much more.
The only spark of hope I see for Williams is Nico Rosberg. A young driver who i think the team can build around to return to their glory days. But how long before he sets his sights on moving elsewhere if Williams dont produce.

Next year and 2008 will be crucial IMO. New engines look likely in 07 and new rules in 2008 means all the teams will start on equal footing.

So the question really is can Williams return to the glory years or will they remain a midfield team for the rest of their years and slowly slide away like Lotus and Tyrell and many others.

I suspect that Williams will return to the glory days, most probably with a team built around Nico Rosberg. Whilst it is true that Williams have gione nearly nine years since winning the championship, they did look very competitive in the early part of this decade and it is not as bad as Ferrari's 21 years without a championship. Williams also have good facilities plus appear likely to have strong engines in Toyotas next year. I believe that these and a team built around Nico Rosberg could prove to be a strong line up in the seasons ahead. That said, I suspect that the next couple of seasons are going to be pivotal in being able to construct a car capable of using these strenghths, otherwise, as Ralf fan points out they could become akin to Tyrrell and Lotus in their last few seasons.

If the toyota engine proves to be strong -- I suspect they'll be back in the hunt for the championship.

you really can't expect Williams to be a title contender this year. their budget took a big hit when BMW left. they're a complete privateer team now. the only teams on the grid this year that don't have major factory support are the Red Bull teams, Williams, Midland and Super Aguri. and you can't actually count RB, because their budget is about as bit as a factory team.

it really makes a big difference.

why they weren't on the pace last year is a mistery to me. but it is likely the relationship between Williams and BMW was bad at best. they were blaming each other for bad performance in 2004 already. which doesn't help the case.

2000-2004 F1 was Ferrari 1, no other team could beat them. so you can't blame Williams for them. Montoya got close in 2003, and both Ralph and Juan were pretty fast in 2002 (in fact Williams had the dominant car that year, considering speed. but they had a lot of reliability problems).

1998-1999 was the same as what happened this year. Renault pulled out, leaving the team with Mecachrome engines (or was it supertec?) Benetton was terrible those years for the same reasons.

bottomline is: give Williams the factory backing they diserve, and they are championship contenders once more. but don't expect that to happen soon, even with Toyota engines

Renault pulled out, leaving the team with Mecachrome engines (or was it supertec?) Benetton was terrible those years for the same reasons.
It was both, in '98 Mecachrome built and maintained the engines and handed the commercial aspects such as securing contracts. From '99 Mecachrome did a deal with Flavio Briatore, who distributed them under the Supertec label, even though they were still Mecachrome engines. Regardless, Benetton badged theres as Playlife and as you say achieved even worse results as did BAR. Probably the only team to see an improvement in form from using the engines was Arrows.

It is hard to see Williams contend for the championship as long as its budget is so relatively small. The latest estimate from BusinessF1 had Williams at just $134 million--which is not much more than Super Aguri which was at a little more than $90 million. McLaren-Mercedes was at $400 million, Toyota at $393 mill., Honda at $381 million, and BMW at $378 million. Even the current model for achieving great results with a relatively small budget, Renault, is estimated to have a budget of $300 million.

Unless Williams get backing from a manufacturer it will remain a midfield team. It is now a fading 8th in the WCC and hasn't scored points in quite a while. The most damning evidence is the Indy result. As Ralf fan astutedly noted, only 9 cars finished but Williams--on Bridgestones--still couldn't score a point...

IMO, answering the question in the title is YES. Williams has a background of raising above the troubled times and start winning again, I don't see why not now.

Troubled times at Williams these days. however never write them off. They can be winners again - and will be winners again. They have proven it time and again.

The Williams factory is 8 miles from my house. They're most certainly our true 'local' team. I sincerely hope they will get back to winning ways, and I think they will. Frank and Patrick are wiley old sods, and know exactly what is required. They will get back I'm sure.

They certainly have the calibre to get back up there. My only concern is, though possibly badged a Lexus engine, i can't help but feel that Toyota would be mighty peeved should Williams be beating them week in week out.

Yes, Lexus is good from a marketing point of view, but the fans of F1 (the guys who matter when it comes to racing) know that it's just a Toyota engine under the hood.

Williams are actually doing much better than I thought. Like everyone else they need a powerful / reliable engine with a decent R&D budget coming with it. Cosworth is not in a position to offer that. I don't know about the Toyota / Lexus deal everone is talking about but if I were a car manufacturer I would join in f1 with Williams.

P.S I forgot to add that there would be a clause in my engine supply agreement that they must give a racing seat to JV.

it certainly doesnt appear good in the short term. Frank has been on record as saying there arent enough sponsors around anymore, and that combined with the fact there are limited manufactureres available for backing shows hints that sir frank is a man without too many short term fixes, mainly to their funding problems. I don't see williams turning their fortunes around in a season or two. Last year, they went cold during the mid season as Sam Michael is on record saying their williams car doesnt suit many tracks. Magny Cours will be one of these tracks. They are never an entity to be written off however, as Sir FW and PH know how to win in motorsport, and i've no doubt they are likely to do so again in the future...

Williams had a good chance in the mid-couple of years with BMW, they did come close.. but as is being proven now - the weaker part of that relationship seems to have been WilliamsF1.

I can't see the toyota engine necessarily being that good - williams had the most powerful engine with BMW and they still couldn't win - what makes me laugh is that at the start of the season - on the switch to V8's - people where saying what an advantage williams could have using cosworth engines - because building V8's is what cosworth do... and rosberg/williams/cosworth combo was a proven winner - and BMW where too arrogant .. and so on... well.. now they're getting stuffed!

Can Frank's health stand up to running an F1 team for another 3-4 years - Will Patrick Heads Face implode with disgust at the teams finishing position in the WCC. Is Nico's future as bright as the early hype suggests? Will Sam Michael ever do anything useful? and can Mark Webber finally win a race?who knows... but I can't see them being back in contention until 2008/9 personally.

Williams had a good chance in the mid-couple of years with BMW, they did come close.. but as is being proven now - the weaker part of that relationship seems to have been WilliamsF1.

well, not necessarily. All that is being shown at the moment is that bmw have more capacity and spending power to move on. At the start of the year, the williams looked to be a better (albeit fragile) package than the bmw. but no surprise to see the limited budget yielding limited progress...

I can't see the toyota engine necessarily being that good - williams had the most powerful engine with BMW and they still couldn't win -

I agree with you that i don't think the toyota engine will make a big difference (if indeed that is what they're getting). Its highly debatable that the bmw was the most powerful engine, though it didnt appear to be lacking too much by any means. MT was on record as saying that the engines in F1 don't make too much difference anymore, as there's not much between them. It's the integration of this package which plays a more significant performance rol.

what makes me laugh is that at the start of the season - on the switch to V8's - people where saying what an advantage williams could have using cosworth engines - because building V8's is what cosworth do...

That pretty much was the case (ie cosworth). It could be said that the others have made up some ground which the cosworth looked to have in the initial races, and hence williams was initially at the pointy end of the grid (albeit made of glass)...

and rosberg/williams/cosworth combo was a proven winner - and BMW where too arrogant .. and so on... well.. now they're getting stuffed!

These are just your own words.

The rivalry between williams and bmw this year has at least added something interesting to the mid pack racing. They both appear to be pretty even at this stage of the year, after williams had a bit of a head start in pace, but i think it will be a reasonably even battle in terms of points and performance by years end. Next year i expect bmw to be a better package. Though williams do punch well above their weight, and i wouldn't discount them, even when the situation looks grim.

ya they can they do have a good car and cosworth has been good till they go.

These are just your own words.


Those are fair points, but actually, I did an advanced search before posting for "williams cosworth advantage" and put in a date range for the end of last year. It bought up about 10 threads.. I went through them and copied and pasted some of the things people were saying about 10-12 quotes... I actually decided not to post them though as it would have seemed a little arrogant.

What Dr Thiessen said about engines not making so much difference probably has a lot of truth to it.. now the FIA have strangled engines designers with regulations it does make it alot harder to find any improvement.

Just a thought: Ferrari have passed through some 20 yrs of defeats and disappointments. Thewn they bounced back.
Why shouldn't FW get back on top again?
Maybe it will take some more time, but they'll surely make it, in less than 20 years.

... and Williams would be about to lose Budweiser as sponsor according to this: http://www.homeofsport.com/f1/news/item.aspx?id=16295

That's one problem really, but how big was this sponsorship ?

Not major, although not something you'd like to lose all the same.

I think the weak link is Webber. They should ax him and bring on someone who knows how to develop the car! JV perhaps if they dont renew him at BMW.

IMO webber dont belong in F1 he is useless and getting outraced by a rookie.

Williams car is the problem, thier aero is crap. They need to improve, the drivers look good Webber was great at Monaco, Rosberg is moving forward, the engines seem to be ok, the tyres are a bit up and down but the car needs to use its aero better.

They will have an upgrade for France,but so will everyone else.

An upgrade would be good, in all weak spots.

Yes they will return, they have before and they will again....remember Williams Renault.:)

I think Williams are in big trouble. Their worst day was when BMW grew frustrated with Williams and went to form their own team. Plus they lost Juan Pablo, and even Ralf - who were a strong driver line up, regardless of their personal issues. Anyway, losing BMW was a big blow, and losing Juan didnt help either - Now with Cosworth engines, its unrealistic to expect much from them, Williams have always had a poor chassis with a great BMW engine powering them to wins since Adrian left for Mclaren - almost every press release for the last 2 years has Sam Michael promising "new parts" on the Williams each weekend, yet it doesent really result in much, does it?

Webber too is quite overated in my book - Rosberg is a star for the future, but not very experienced in setting up a car or doing much development work - so really, Williams are in trouble because all the top manufacturers have their own teams, and even if Williams get customer engines, they will always be a step or two behind the works team's engines.

So..unless they get another manufacturer to join up with them, ditch Webber while they`re at it....and most importantly sort out their technical and aero issues...Im afraid we're going to see a continuous decline of what was once a great team.

I think the weak link is Webber. They should ax him and bring on someone who knows how to develop the car!

I'll start off by saying I have absolutely no idea as to how much driver input into developing the car has proportionately on the overall performance.

That said, I'd like you to look back to last years Red Bull car, and how pleasantly surprising it (and DC's) performances were last year. I'd argue (although I am unsure as to how successfully) that Webber contributed to the development of that car in the two years he was at Jaguar.

Similarly, you could argue the same in Gascoyne's case for Renault. They didn't win anything while he was there, but the foundations he (might have [I don't know enough to be honest]) laid put the team in a good position to progress. Another possibility is that Gascoyne's absolute rubbish, and was the cause for the downfall of Jordan's successes, his departure at Renault was the catalyst for their recent successes, and now that Toyota have sacked him they'll win races within the next year or two.

In short, I couldn't agree with you more. Webber would look more at home (npi) infront of a super nes than he would in a Super Aguri. He's the cause for Williams' demise and current form, and he should be ashamed of himself!

Perhaps if he moves to Renault next year Williams will be able to go back to their glory days and win the WCC ;)

Now moving on more seriously (not that the previous stuff I've said isn't serious ;)) to the question of whether they'll recover - I'd certainly like to thinks so. People have already alluded to the fact that history has shown that they have bounced back from low periods, which tends to suggest they can and will again at some point.

IMO their problems are very deep seated and unlikely to go away any time soon. Both Sir Frank and Patrick Head have made some serious strategic mistakes which are the main cause of the predicament thay are in:

1. They should never have let Adrian Newey Go - They should have moved heaven and earth to keep him - more money, even an equity stake in the team - designers like Newey are worth their weight in Gold - something that Frank and Head simply haven't ever been able to get their head around. Remember Brawn and Willis also worked at Williams at one stage!

2. They should have sold a stake (a majority if need be) to BMW who would probably have leapt at the chance in the early days of the partnership - Ron Dennis did exactly that and just look at the relative health of Mclaren-Mercedes Vis a Vis Williams.

3. Also it seems that their is no real depth to the Williams management team. Sir Frank and Head are very autocratic and with Sir Frank's health clearly not getting any better and Head appearing to be less involved who will take over in the future? Sam Michael?

Maybe one of the current drivers will get involved when they step away from the drivers seat

To be competitive in F1 in the 2000's you need to be a manufacturer-based team... there's now no other way. Its not even a money thing, as Red Bull can evidence. When Williams were BMW's manufacturer team they were winning races. Today they're a privateer again, so its unlikely that they will win in that guise.

So... now to a hypothesis. Toyota could possibly be experimenting with Williams, with a view to developing a technical partnership with them and long-term shutting down the cash sucking, poor performing, Cologne edifice. If that was the case, who would dare write Williams off for further wins and possibly even titles in the later half of the decade with somebody like Rosberg at the wheel.

I think whatever they do they will get support from their fans, which won't help them win races! I want them to succeed more than anyone because they have always been privateers, as was Eddy Jordan, and show the big manufacturers it's more than just about how big your budget is, but then I live in cloud cuckoo land and whilst the PD is in charge, money will always speak, so whilst I really hope they will bounce back, unless they get a major spnsor it ain't gonna happen, which is a real shame.

A scenario with Williams as the partner Toyota team is probably the only way Williams can return to the front. Sam Michael has essentially churned out slow car after slow car, and it's true that they don't have much management right at the top, with the key figures getting older and lacking anyone to replace them. Ferrari had a long run without success, but they had Fiat behind them, and eventually ended up with some big sponsorship deals based largely on their heritage. By contrast, Williams are losing sponsors quite regularly. I hate to say it, but I don't see them really recovering.

Boots,

You might be annoyed to hear a message of hope from me but I think there is still very much hope for Williams if that Toyota / Lexus deal materializes. This could be an indication that Toyota's patience with its full scale (and expensive) team is getting very thin. They might very well ditch their team to concentrate on the sole engine supplying if they were to realise that they are doing as good as mere supplier of Williams (and for only a fraction of costs) than as a full team outfit. Honda too might be about to reach the same conclusion.

The important for Williams is to survive one more year. Hopefully, life will be far easier for f1 private teams by 2008.

I think the weak link is Webber. They should ax him and bring on someone who knows how to develop the car! JV perhaps if they dont renew him at BMW.

IMO webber dont belong in F1 he is useless and getting outraced by a rookie.

Well ,you will be happy to know that JV has just been announced as a 2007 Williams driver. He will fill in the time between races by running the Williams aero team. The team has announced Webber's poor fluid dynamics knoweledge as the main reason for the split. Apparently the PhD in aerodynamics he brought with him to the initial job interview was forged.

Expect a Championship or two in 2007

Well ,you will be happy to know that JV has just been announced as a 2007 Williams driver. He will fill in the time between races by running the Williams aero team. The team has announced Webber's poor fluid dynamics knoweledge as the main reason for the split. Apparently the PhD in aerodynamics he brought with him to the initial job interview was forged.

Expect a Championship or two in 2007

:rofl: :rofl:

damnit, Frank should have known there was no such thing as The Royal University of Queanbeyan!

I think the weak link is Webber. They should ax him and bring on someone who knows how to develop the car! JV perhaps if they dont renew him at BMW.

IMO webber dont belong in F1 he is useless and getting outraced by a rookie.


outraced by a rookie huh? yeh nico the wonder boy was so impressive in canada, blocks his team mate then crashes out on the first lap. and it was in another race hwere he tried to put his team mate in the wall down the straight.

you prove your stupidity by saying jv can make up the performance gap for williams to other teams, if that was so, why isnt bmw winning?

i knew i shouldnt have biten but comments like that are just so annoying.

Come on, come on! Don't get too excited or some Big Daddy is going to appear here with a big stick :admin: ;) (I hope the wink is clearly seen!)

Do you mean who ?????

Ryan, read the FAQ, Attack the post, not the poster, please.

Took the words right out of my mouth...

ok then i'll attack the post some more.

It states that webber is getting out raced by his rookie team mate.
Webber on 6 points with several chances to be on a podium (reliability prevented this)
Rosberg on 4 points with a good debut but has done nothing since (except block his team mate and crash).

I can't remember a race where rosberg looked to be near a podium.

JV has done alright at BMW this year but would certainly not close the gap, as no driver could. its simply to big.

Webber doesn't belong in f1?
He has gone from a minardi drive to jag to williams. he has consistenly beat his team mate. He put minardi in 5th, put jap on front row of qualifying and has driven the wheels of the williams this year. Not to shabby.

The post is an outright webber bash.

he has consistenly beat his team mate

Heidfeld missed too many races to make that judgement - my opinion is that quick nick would have beaten webber last year - but like I say, we can't really tell.

One thing I've learned watching F1 these past 16-odd years.

Don't ever write off

a)McLaren
b)Williams
c)Ferrari

They always bounce back.

Simple and direct. ;)

Sadly I am not so sure about Williams immortality. In the past great teams have fallen (Brabham, Lotus,...).

Top teams can rebound from bad seasons because they have: (1) resources (money from sponsors, makers), (2) knowledge about how to do things. Money comes to team because of expectations of success. The more distant in the past is success, more difficulties to attract money. Knowledge can fade as time pass, when key people change.

When too many years without major success happen, money begins to disappear and, in turn, it's more difficult to recover, so a negative feedback appears. A downward spiral was the fate of some of the formerly mentioned disappeared teams.

I don't know if this is the case now for Williams, but a beginning of a downward spiral can be see there. I hope they recover, this time at least. But don't forget a main law: "everything eventually will disappear" (except possibly Bernie). ;)

The only criticism you can really make of Webber this season is that he is still making many poor starts, whereas Nico has usually got off the line very well. Otherwise, I've been impressed with his driving under an increasingly-desperate looking situation.

The only criticism you can really make of Webber this season is that he is still making many poor starts, whereas Nico has usually got off the line very well. Otherwise, I've been impressed with his driving under an increasingly-desperate looking situation.

May i ask what races youve based that on? Youre the first ive seen thats (openly) criticised his starts this year.

Careful boots, when criticising Webber. ;)

Careful Knowlsey, when cautioning people about criticising Webber :p

Ahem, this thread is about Williams and its future. Although Webber is still a Williams' driver that doesn't mean he's the main subject of this thread. The next posting about this driver here and this thread will be closed.
If you like to talk about Webber feel free to open a new thread, though there's already others threads about him.

Do i wish Williams to be back to the glory days? Definitely.

Team Williams had a strong history, and although history doesn't garantee a place on the grid, i surely don't wish to see Williams depart.

Part of the magic of having Williams around is not purely because it is an independent team, but because her founder is still heading the team, and i pretty much admire that man.

I fear for Williams, because in F1, things may go in cycles, but sometimes, teams find themselves in a downward cycle that just worsen, and they never recover. They can only rely on their past glory (as recent as almost 10 years ago) for so long.

To compound matters, i feel that the team is a shadow of it's former self. Remember the days when talents such as Newey, Ross and the likes are hot in demand by other teams, how Head is greatly respected for his engineering abilities, and how Team Williams is remembered as THE Engineering team, who won't budge for driver BS because they know they have the best car, and any decent drivers can win in them.

The confidence and the depth of the team is lost. Head seems to be losing touch while other engineers are now credited. Sam Michael is not the talent or next Head as Williams hoped. And despite new technology in the windtunnel and stuff, the team "feels" outdated in knowhow. Aerodynamics and engineering are no longer a forte, and their cars are just normal, not cutting edge anymore.

I am sad to see Jordan disappear, to see Minardi gone, to see Sauber being swallowed up. To see Williams go down the drain would be unbearable.

I find it sad that team owners are often forced to swallow their pride and give up their teams to manufacturers just to keep the team intact, and have the owner being assigned some pathetic "goodwill" position within the team with no real effect. For that i salute Frank for keeping his status and not budge and give in. But in the long run, it may shake the future of the team.

Which is the reason why i hope FIA would seriously consider setting a secondary constructor table for privateer teams. It may lack the glamour of the current WCC, but it rewards the best of the independent teams, and help ease the way when private teams have to source for fundings.

It's a tricky time for FW - although the BMW relationship never really gelled - I recall posting at the time that losing manufacturer support was a bit like getting fired from a well paid job - all of a sudden you lose the big pay cheque, the expense account, the company phone/laptop and the company car, and life doesn't look so easy or lucrative.

SFW recently highlighted how BMW had picked up Dell, O2 and Intel as 'sponsors', factory teams with big contracts to award and a network of suppliers to hit will always suck in deals. Whereas Williams have yet to fill the former 'HP' space on the car and a year like they are experiencing will not help their marketing team.

Will Willams be in the hunt for WCC/WDC titles, in the short/medium term probably not - F1 is a money game, and while it's fair comment that Honda and Toyota have not used their great budgets effectively, the current front runners are probably spending two or three times what Williams are able to.

I would love to see Williams come back next year with more support, a factory engine and do well. My concern is that their thinking on the aero front has been their undoing over the last couple of years and it appears it may be the same this year.

*double post*!

So good they named it twice..........

Webber should be axed, he is a waste of space at williams! they should have re hired montoya!

yeah great, thanks, you've already said that :rolleyes:

perhaps look at the wisdom and conversation promoted by super tourer and GT_R as a model for your future posts and add to the conversation.

I hope this thread doesnt get closed as there are some interesting posts..... :order:

they should have re hired montoya!

Apparently they tried, and even he didnt want to drive for them.

Nevermind then. But Im serious Webbers days in F1 are numbered, he has not dones anything in the 4 seasons he has raced in F1. I would be happy to see him go than the likes of JPM or JV thats for sure.

Nevermind then. But Im serious Webbers days in F1 are numbered, he has not dones anything in the 4 seasons he has raced in F1. I would be happy to see him go than the likes of JPM or JV thats for sure.
To be fair, Webber's results in F1 haven't been the best but given that he has had to endure Minardis and Jaguars and this years Williams is far from competitive, this is hardly surprising. The driver is only part of the package and in F1 a driver needs a strong car in order to get the top results on a regular basis.

With regard to Williams returning to the competitiveness experienced in the past, this is unlikely to occur by getting rid of strong experienced drivers, which Webber could be argued to be.

Nevermind then. But Im serious Webbers days in F1 are numbered, he has not dones anything in the 4 seasons he has raced in F1. I would be happy to see him go than the likes of JPM or JV thats for sure.

I guess you also think Red Bull made such an impression last year because Webber got out of the 3rd year of his Jag contract