gttouring 5 Apr 2006, 02:36 Drifting is a sport like figure skating is.
sure it takes skill, talent, dedication and money...
but it is not a quantifiable thing.
I love it. I drift my 240 in the indusrtial parks all over Orange county California...and i am going early to see it on Saturday at the grandprix of longbeach....
butit certainly doesn't deserve its own forum, a drfit thread in road car should be good.
it sure isn't Big enough in scope to merit more.
what are we gonna talk about? set ups? smoke tyres? Tarzan Yamada, Gushi? D1, Formula D?
the rules? it is so embryonic in its development as an organized even t not enough people are interested, and even i like it but it is not the pinnacle- Speed GT, ChampCAr, IRL , Formula 1, GP2, A1GP, BTCC, WTCC, STCC, ALMS,LMES, FIA-HGT, these are real racing sports, and much is happening to discuss. Drifting....i dunno
i am not flaming, but you must understand, it is like a boxing,Judo,UFC forum talking about pro wrestling.
BigDaddy 5 Apr 2006, 05:13 <snip>
Drifting is a motorsport and forgive me if I am wrong but this is a motorsport forum I signed up too???
Drifting in Australia is probably the fast growing form of motorsport where young people who want to compete in the national series don't need rich parents. It is only going to get bigger.
Al Weyman 5 Apr 2006, 14:33 My opinion of course but that just seems so pointless, the only benifactors must be the tyre companies, leaves me cold sorry but heck if thats what people want let them have a forum, no problem each to their own.
topwelshman 5 Apr 2006, 22:14 Lots of fun but I can't help thinking of teenagers in hoodies saying "yeah man" and "init" :rotate:
graham bahr 6 Apr 2006, 09:16 imho it is sort of a sport, a bit like syncronised swimming its technical and looks pretty but has got nothing to do with speed, i dont want to see it in the racing forum because its simply isn't, but neither does it belong in road forum, doesn't really fit in with trackday but thats probably closer to where it should go under the existing 10/10 setup,
that said i dont see why it shouldn't be given a chance of its own forum, if it doesn't get used it can be closed down again, but i suspect that once word gets out that there is somewhere on here to disguss it it will see lots of action, whatever we think of drifting it is car based and is'nt going to go away just because most of us racers dont like it.
"What colour neon lights should I put under my car?" ;)
Denis Bassom 6 Apr 2006, 10:48 "What colour neon lights should I put under my car?" ;)
Which ever ones make it go fastest, obviously!
My opinion of course but that just seems so pointless...
Well, yes, from a constructive perspective, it is utterly pointless...but, from that point of view, the rest of motorsport doesn't really serve a purpose either...
I was watching Speed the other day, as I am prone to doing, in the hope of coming across school bus racing, which is interesting, but I digress, the point is I came across a programme showing a round of/demonstration by some US based drifting championship.
I thorougly enjoyed it, and would absolutely love to go and see it live. Vroom-vroom-squeel-squeel and what not I find most entertaining. I think that is a distinction, though, I do tend to view it more from an entertainment perspective rather than sport. Not that I deny the skill involved, for there undoubtedly is that. Perhaps in time, as I get to understand the complexities of the judging mechanisms, and what not, I will end up viewing it as a fully fledged sport.
When push comes to shove, I am, in essence, ambivalent regarding a separate forum being set-up: however, I would happily see it given a go. :)
What is sad, is that most of the kids who follow it drive FWD cars..... aren't they missing something?
Higher insurance premiums, ;).
Higher insurance premiums, ;).
You mean £3250pa TPF&T for Denis' ol' Toyota Corrolla RWD that would drift like billy-o instead of £3245pa TPF&T for that 1.2Clio with 24" wheels, more plastic than the Toys R Us kiddies toys section, and a stereo soooo loud that when turned up, the alternator almost stalls the engine, and a hoooooge ironing board rear wing that offers lift instead of downforce?
I'll put a burberry cap on and take the Clio. Innit. yeah?
Rob.
I was more thinking the increased chance of accidents!
Denis Bassom 6 Apr 2006, 12:43 You mean £3250pa TPF&T for Denis' ol' Toyota Corrolla RWD that would drift like billy-o instead of £3245pa TPF&T for that 1.2Clio with 24" wheels, more plastic than the Toys R Us kiddies toys section, and a stereo soooo loud that when turned up, the alternator almost stalls the engine, and a hoooooge ironing board rear wing that offers lift instead of downforce?
I'll put a burberry cap on and take the Clio. Innit. yeah?
Rob.
My car is so old that they could get a limited mileage classic car policy! Cheap as chips and with a standard CWP it will do over 150MPH.
Al Weyman 7 Apr 2006, 00:59 Well, yes, from a constructive perspective, it is utterly pointless...but, from that point of view, the rest of motorsport doesn't really serve a purpose either...
Well yes it does, you get to beat (or be beaten) by other competors, what do you get form this? It is athe same as powerboating and skiing, I have mates who have boats but once you have gunned it up and don the bay a few times it becomes boring, no competitive element, now if you were racing said powerboats that would be different.
But in the powersliding championships they are competing...they are trying to outscore their opponents.
Anyway, competition or otherwise, I cannot agree that motorsport, of any form, really serves any constructive purpose (at least, not in an direct sense).
It is great, and I love it, but that is a different matter.
EvilPumpkin 7 Apr 2006, 08:49 Wow, this is fascinating. I can picture all you guys with pipes and wearing tweed caps and going "harrrumph" :p
The bottom line is that drifting is a competitive sport. Like just about every competitive sport in the world, it's based on a number of things, not least of which is skill.
And like just about every competitive sport in the world, it serves no useful purpose.
So like just about every competitive sport in the world, that brings it down to enjoyment for the competitor and entertainment for the fans. Since it obviously has that, I don't see the problem.
It's not something I find particularly entertaining, but the amount of spectators that these kind of events get pretty much speaks for itself in a time when your average club race meeting is lucky to get a couple of hundred people through the gate. It's also rapidly attracting large sponsorship deals as a result.
A forward thinking view would be looking at having a drifting round included in a normal race meeting in order to bring in new spectators who may then become interested in the circuit racing as well - and bring the sponsors in with them.....
Al Weyman 7 Apr 2006, 08:58 Come down to Brands on the 15th April and I will show you how a 500 + bhp rear wheel drive Camaro can really light up the tyres, no on second thoughts those Kumhos cost me £140 each :-(.
Thing is with this 'competitive' sport as opposed to racing, its like comparing Ice Dancing with speed skating. In the later it is simply down to the guy who skates the fastest without falling over in dancing it is at the whim of the judges and we have all seen over the years how biase they can be. A race, any type of race, in my opinion is not pointless as it shows who is the superior on the day, this lark just shows who has the most BHP in their rear wheel drive car. Also with the green lobby breathing down our necks this 'sport' does nothing to applease the Greens. You could say 'so what' but if and when they eventually close us down it will be a different story.
Denis Bassom 7 Apr 2006, 09:02 WWE wrestling pulls in huge crowds and features hugely talented athletes/actors.
It still isn't a sport though, it's entertainment and has it's place.
In the end a massive proportion of spectators want to see spectacular driving, collisions and crashes. Perhaps we just need to remove the non-contact element of motor racing to keep them happy? And maybe nominate one person per race to drive into a wall? And introduce a regulation only allowing huge V8's and 155 rear tyres (should keep Al and Rob happy!)?
EvilPumpkin 7 Apr 2006, 09:19 Thing is with this 'competitive' sport as opposed to racing, its like comparing Ice Dancing with speed skating. In the later it is simply down to the guy who skates the fastest without falling over in dancing it is at the whim of the judges and we have all seen over the years how biase they can be. A race, any type of race, in my opinion is not pointless as it shows who is the superior on the day, this lark just shows who has the most BHP in their rear wheel drive car. Also with the green lobby breathing down our necks this 'sport' does nothing to applease the Greens. You could say 'so what' but if and when they eventually close us down it will be a different story.
A race is totally pointless in the overall scheme of things. Who cares who is faster? Only the people competing and the fans. This is the whole point. Whether it's cars going vroom or 11 men in shorts chasing after a small spherical object, any sport, no matter what it is or what the format is, is pointless. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it though, since the point of it is enjoyment.
redshoes 7 Apr 2006, 09:46 A race, any type of race, in my opinion is not pointless as it shows who is the superior on the day..
or in some cases, who has the biggest cheque book / most BHP.
That said, I agree with you about drifting. I don't understand the point.
Al Weyman 7 Apr 2006, 09:56 Not always about money although this sport usually is of couses, because I said any race even those in field and track running events and all you need there is determination and of course the right physical build. Maybe a personal thing but I can always watch a race no matter what it is, but anything that is 'judged' by a panel of so called experts always seems a bit dodgy to me althogh I will agree like all these type of events they have entertainment value if you are into them so I won't knock them too much.
rallycrosscraig 18 Apr 2006, 22:09 there's no way it should be classed as a motor sport, in the uk best left to a bunch of hoodies in old nissans with neon lights in macdonalds car parks.
MagnetON 18 Apr 2006, 23:18 And yet "Auto Testing" which (from the ones I've seen) consists of doing handbrake turns in a cut-down mini through a course of cones is considered a motor sport??
Quannie 19 Apr 2006, 00:33 What sort of sport should it be classified as? Golf?
MagnetON 19 Apr 2006, 00:39 As far as I'm concerned, if it's got a petrol engine, someone driving on or in it, it's officially organised and has an element of competition then it's a motor-sport. And YES, that does mean that things like power-boat racing are motorsports, certainly for the purposes of discussion on this forum.
Quannie 19 Apr 2006, 00:45 Well Magnet, I like your way of thinking, because I agree 100%
I do too. One modification I would make, though, is that the engine need not necessarily be a petrol one.
Al Weyman 25 Apr 2006, 12:02 How can Powerboat racing be classified as Motorsports, don't follow that?
MagnetON 25 Apr 2006, 12:26 Ok, so what do you consider to be motorsports? And if you are going to say "wheels", then what do you consider snowmobile racing? ;)
silver bullet 25 Apr 2006, 13:09 If it's got a motor and it involves taking part in competitions IMHO it's motorsport.
All things included F1's to lawnmower racing, Top Fuel Dragsters To Tractor Pulling. Powerboat Racing to Rally Raids.
Al, if you want to see some extreme "wet" motorsport - take a look at Jet Boat racing. Big V8's, tiny boats, around a little course. A bit like a rally stage for boats. It's awesome to watch. As I don't like getting wet, I'll stick to the tarmac!!
And, yes, motorsport encompasses anything powered by a motor, petrol, or otherwise.
Rob.
cybersdorf 26 Apr 2006, 09:30 And, yes, motorsport encompasses anything powered by a motor, petrol, or otherwise.
http://espn-att.starwave.com/winnercomm/outdoors/gog/i/PG3_gog_STIHL_timber_Osh23.jpg
Al Weyman 26 Apr 2006, 16:27 As cyberdorf's picture graphically points out no I don't agree that everything with a motor in it qualifies as Motorsport and I don't think Motorsport News does either by their content and title. So what about racing airplanes and stunt flying, and for that matter model airplanes on a control line, I don't think so. In my book Motorsport is for wheeled vehicles mainly cars.
silver bullet 26 Apr 2006, 23:51 Point taken, regarding the chainsaw, that is how you say... the exeption that prooves the rule.:bag:
Maybe we should say wheeled motorsport & non wheeled motorsport.
Mind you aeroplanes have wheels ;)
Al Weyman 26 Apr 2006, 23:56 The word Motorsport surely comes form the word Motorcar not snowmobile, powerboat or anything else, I just don't getthe argument. Oh and not all airplanes have wheels:-)
silver bullet 27 Apr 2006, 00:21 I've just checked the Concise Oxford Dictionary and it says
motor sport n. = MOTOR RACING
motor racing n. the racing of motorized vehicles, esp cars as a sport.
Just to add to above definitions:
Motor
1. Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.
2. A device that converts any form of energy into mechanical energy, especially an internal-combustion engine or an arrangement of coils and magnets that converts electric current into mechanical power.
3. A motor vehicle, especially an automobile: “It was a night of lovers. All along the highway... motors were parked and dim figures were clasped in revery” (Sinclair Lewis).
The chainsaw example shows the exlcusion of driver/pilot control in our definition.
If we said anything that is motorised, moves along a plane, and requires a person to be travelling on it/in it as it moves along said plane? Something like that?
Al, motor racing clearly comes from the word motor. A motorcar gets the motor part because it has a motor!
How can you not call motorised boats competing on a circuit motor racing? What else is it?
Denis Bassom 27 Apr 2006, 08:50 I've just checked the Concise Oxford Dictionary and it says
motor sport n. = MOTOR RACING
motor racing n. the racing of motorized vehicles, esp cars as a sport.
What is the definition of "racing"?
Al Weyman 27 Apr 2006, 11:01 How can you not call motorised boats competing on a circuit motor racing? What else is it?
Thats obvious, its powerboat racing, simple as that, the Sky channels Men and Motors etc do not feature these sports nor does Autosport, Mororsport News and many other mags so thats good enough for me.
So in essence what this view that anything with a motor is motorsport says is that we can start a totally irrelevant thread here on Snow mobile racing or lawn mowers, school buses whatever here nothing to do with car racing (parc ferme aside) and that would be acceptable?
MagnetON 27 Apr 2006, 12:01 So in essence what this view that anything with a motor is motorsport says is that we can start a totally irrelevant thread here on Snow mobile racing or lawn mowers, school buses whatever here nothing to do with car racing (parc ferme aside) and that would be acceptable?
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40363
http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25952
Al Weyman 27 Apr 2006, 12:58 Does absolutely nothing for a purist MOTORSPORTS fan like me:-)
Does absolutely nothing for a purist MOTORSPORTS fan like me:-)
I am a purist MOTORSPORTS fan too.
Lawnmower racing is racing, and good fun too. A summer evening sport if you ask me! (it's a countryside thing Al!!)
To be picky, not much different to truck racing, just much smaller scale!!
Now tractor pulling is probably the greatest expression of horsepower through wheels of any sort anywhere on the planet. Imagine 3 x V12 supercharged Allinsons tuned, turning out 3000bhp each.... come on Al, that has to do something for you? Or 6 x Keith Black 500 Hemi's, each turning around 1200bhp.....
Rob.
Al Weyman 27 Apr 2006, 20:50 No sorry Rob all of those examples leave me cold especially that abonimation of motorsport, Truck Racing. I just hate it with a passion and see absolutely no scense in it at all, horrible smoking things talk about giving the green lobby ammunition. Tractor pulling another joke, I just don't get it sorry.
Woolley 27 Apr 2006, 22:05 Al, if you want to see some extreme "wet" motorsport - take a look at Jet Boat racing. Big V8's, tiny boats, around a little course. A bit like a rally stage for boats. It's awesome to watch.
Awesome doesn't do it justice. I got taken to see them, and to say that the reality didn't match the impression I'd formed from the description would be an understatement. Kind of like expecting to see an autotest and getting WRC instead. Fantastic. And the noise...
Sorry, I think I dribbled on my keyboard.
Al Weyman 27 Apr 2006, 22:14 Look I like power boat racing, got no problem with that but I would not want to buy my copy of Motorsport News or MotorSport and start reading about boat racing in there. Same as I would not expect to find a section on this forum dedicated to powerboat racing, its different does'nt mean its not good just not 'Motorsport' in the true and sense of the word/phrase/terminology. (IMHO of course).
Woolley 27 Apr 2006, 22:31 Yes, I know what you mean about the mag. The forum, though, is 10-tenths, and anything motorised being raced is up for discussion. I'm personally not too sure about the whole drifting concept as a sport. I enjoy ice skating, but I can't quite take ice dance as a sport either.
Actually tractor pulling wouldn't fit in here, because there's no doubt about that - it's probably closer to 24-10ths due to the amount of extra boost they run.
Al - you like tuning? Take one 6 litre tractor engine, normally producting 150bhp, then add two extra turbo chargers making it three stage, weld the head to the block to stop it from popping it's studs, and wind up the pump. Hey presto, over 1000bhp of nasty whistling smoky diesel (makes the truck racers look clean!!)
If you find it pointless, it's like the rally drivers who see what we do as pointless. We just go round and around and around...
Tractor pulling rarely makes it into the likes of Autosport or Motorsport News, but very very rarely find's itself in Farmers Weekly.
It's a countryside thing.
Oooooo Arrrrr
Rob.
Al Weyman 28 Apr 2006, 09:19 So if tha the concept lets foget the tractors lets just line up some Superflow Dynos and invite competitors along with their engines for a shoot out to see who gets the most power, actually I quite like that idea :-).
As for Ice Dancing I used to feel the same till I had this lady working for me who used to represent Great Britain and I tell you they are very tough and brave competitors, that can be one hard sport, the knocks they take is unbelivable as seen on the recent TV show, they are very tough cookies believe me.
Woolley 28 Apr 2006, 14:58 As for Ice Dancing I used to feel the same till I had this lady working for me who used to represent Great Britain and I tell you they are very tough and brave competitors, that can be one hard sport, the knocks they take is unbelivable as seen on the recent TV show, they are very tough cookies believe me.
Well off topic, I know, but I'm well aware of their skills, and it's fabulous to watch, but is it sport? err? I do amateur dramatics (musicals) which is similar, but it's not sport either. Really can't understand why some people take their plays to festivals. Competitive drama? No thanks.
So neatly back to topic. Drifting, very skillful, pretty spectacular, but sport? err? Not sure.
It certainly is motorized, though, and Nat+Club fulfills the role of 'everything else that doesn't generate sufficient traffic to justify its own forum' so it's fans are quite welcome to discuss it here.
So if tha the concept lets foget the tractors lets just line up some Superflow Dynos and invite competitors along with their engines for a shoot out to see who gets the most power, actually I quite like that idea :-).
Nope, that's not the concept.
The concept is to pull the "sledge" down the course, where the weight on the sledge is driven forwards onto the plate, and the speed that the weight, and the actuall mass, defines the difficulty of the pull.
It's about driver skill, as much as sheer horsepower/torque. Too many revs and you'll just spin, not enough and it'll bog down, get it right, and you should manage a full pull (pulling the sledge the full distance within the limits of the course)
It's "drag racing on dirt - gone mad"
Rob.
Thats obvious, its powerboat racing, simple as that, the Sky channels Men and Motors etc do not feature these sports nor does Autosport, Mororsport News and many other mags so thats good enough for me.
So in essence what this view that anything with a motor is motorsport says is that we can start a totally irrelevant thread here on Snow mobile racing or lawn mowers, school buses whatever here nothing to do with car racing (parc ferme aside) and that would be acceptable?
Yes, so you are talking about motorcar motor racing.
That is just one branch of it.
Why is snowmobile racing, lawn mower racing, or school bus racing not motor racing?
Ach, well, nevermind.
There are clearly irreconcilable differences in perspective.
Al Weyman 30 Apr 2006, 09:36 Well I think as it so happens that Drifting is probably a lot closer to what I have as a definition of Motorsport than any of the above cited examples.
Well, yes, I would assume it would.
It involves cars, therefore automatically must be closer by your defintion (I had presumed).
BigDaddy 5 May 2006, 19:45 You people need to broaden your horizons a little. I am a racer not a drifter, but I am fast becoming a fan of drift events because of the skill required to be successful at it.
Mark Twain 6 May 2006, 14:03 My thoughts on this thread is that it may be for the people interested in this particular form of motor sport to discuss it, not for us to discuss whether it is a sport or not, as the thread appears to have taken that direction.
I assume you refer to the motorsport answer to "come dancing", ie drifting.
Perhaps it could be said that it's taking the sport closer to the arts.... Perhaps we'll see Melvyn Bragg joining Brian Jones commentating at Brands yet!
I'm starting to warm further to the idea, and wonder about giving it a closer look - maybe even having a go, looks like fun. Perhaps I can convert some of the 1.2Clio kids into circuit racers instead of "Stereo-types".
Rob.
BigDaddy 9 May 2006, 02:03 Seriously if you don't like drifitng and want to keep bagging it, I suggest you don't even read this thread and especially don't make comment. I don't know who the people are you are talking about but I can only assume you are being sarcastic. You realise sarcasim is the poorest form of witt.
I'm not being sarcastic! I'm on side here... I see drifting as a motorsport, and one which you could almost describe as "power sliding gone mad" to the point of almost being a bit of an "artform".
(for our non-Blighty residents - Melvyn Bragg is a TV "arts" presenter, Brian Jones is a god amongst motor racing circuit commentators)
And since it's powersliding - I must be interested, as my own chosen mount has far more power than grip, drives at the "right" end, and probably fits the bill of a drifting type car quite well.
Wit? Some say I'm full of it. Oh, what? ahh yess, well it sounds like wit.
And the 1.2Clio kids - have a look here - www.barryboys.co.uk - and you'll see the kind of kids that style their car like drifters, but something is missing somewhere.... (RWD and enough horsepower for a start!)
If only they'd let us do donuts when we win without fining us for "driving in a manner incompatible with general safety"...... The spectators - they love it.
The officials see it as yobbish behaviour.
That's all by the by. I'm going to have a look at this drifting game, and may just have a go myself. Highspeed spectacular autotesting (another analogy).
Rob.
Denis Bassom 9 May 2006, 13:55 Seriously if you don't like drifitng and want to keep bagging it, I suggest you don't even read this thread and especially don't make comment. I don't know who the people are you are talking about but I can only assume you are being sarcastic. You realise sarcasim is the poorest form of witt.
Funny, thought this thread was entitled "Drifting Discussion" and it was on a Discussion Forum!
silver bullet 22 May 2006, 10:50 I saw a demo film at the Autosport show a couple of years ago. It was a Japanese guy driving a NSX around a full circuit. It looked spectacular to watch and probably great fun to do. There was not a do-nuts in sight, no burn out's or anything boy racerish. The guy had fantastic car control.
Quannie 27 May 2006, 14:09 thats what drifiting is about car control, nothing to do with donuts, if they do any donuts or are being stupid they get thrown out.
silver bullet 26 Jun 2006, 17:47 I think we need to stress the difference between the 'sport' of drifting, and the guys like steer from the rear and the likes of Terry Grant, who do nothing more than the boy racers in Tesco car park. That IMHO is not drifting.
The STIG 6 Jul 2006, 18:24 I think we need to stress the difference between the 'sport' of drifting, and...the boy racers in Tesco car park.
Unfortunatly, The boy racers are already trying to do drifting in supermarket car parks - possibly brought on by the recent fast and furious film..?
Video evidence here : http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d163/davestones/?action=view¤t=Bit_BotherAVI.flv
I say trying, because as that video shows, it rarely works!!
The result is, is that we'll see more of this sort of behaviour as drifiting gains popularity. and possibly a huge rise in the profits of clutch and tyre centres around the country!
To me, Drifting comes under the same catagory as "Crusing" - or in other words mucking around trying to cause as much noise and smoke as possible with very little worthwhile competition. It can't be good on the cars - they'll spend a fortune in tyres and heaven knows what it does to the condition of the track!
V8_TURBO 6 Jul 2006, 18:54 In scotland Drifting is taken as a serious sport.
In scotland Drifting is taken as a serious sport.
In Scotland the Haggis is taken as a serious food................
touringlegend 6 Jul 2006, 23:12 As silver bullet said drifting is a professional sport - I can't imagine the talent it takes to finely throttle the car while steering ever so gently, not enough that the car snaps away and enough to keep the drift working.
Don't see how idiots abusing their clutches and tyres in a supermarket carpark can even be compared.
And as the original title of the thread posed the question if drifting is a motor sport ? Well surely by definition of motorsport is sport using motorised vehicles - so it's got to be a sport in my opinion.
Slippy Diff 7 Jul 2006, 00:14 Drifting is a sport like figure skating is.
Both of those have an outcome decided by judges, right? So where's the sport in that?
silver bullet 7 Jul 2006, 09:14 Both of those have an outcome decided by judges, right? So where's the sport in that?So now your going to say that boxing is'nt a sport.
V8_TURBO 7 Jul 2006, 11:21 In Scotland the Haggis is taken as a serious food................
Duh, Its beautiful.
Anyway I went to a drift connection in Morrisons car park. It was great, until the police showed up and chased us all away. But the point was, wel, there was no point. Most other sports don't have a point either. But why do people do it? They do it because they like it.
The STIG 7 Jul 2006, 12:42 I went to a drift connection in Morrisons car park...
I rest my case, M'lud...
Oh and on the subject of what is or what isn't a sport - I ring church bells. Occasionally we have ringing competitions - where the ringing is judged by an independant judge who doesn't know which band is playing, but I digress- no one would ever call ringing a sport, yet it takes a lot of skill to win a competition.
Most sports are either scored by points (i.e. a goal in football/hockey/etc.) or by time (most (if not all) motorsports/Skiing/etc.) Where points are awarded by a judging panel, it remains a competition - but more of an artistic one - and not a sport per se.
well, that's my theory on it
Al, if you want to see some extreme "wet" motorsport - take a look at Jet Boat racing. Big V8's, tiny boats, around a little course. A bit like a rally stage for boats. It's awesome to watch.
I love that, I remember the first time I seen it on Motors TV!
Drifting is the utterly necessary, Dionysian counterpart to Motorsport's obsession with time.
Drifting is the utterly necessary, Dionysian counterpart to Motorsport's obsession with time.
:) Now that's a quote I like :Shake:
I have to admit I originally thought drifting was an utter waste of time and effort - but then I thought about it a bit. On the rally stage we always get the car sideways and frankly it's great fun tearing round with the back of the car hanging out at every opporunity - and people watching love it when the cars come flying round the corners with the opposite lock wound on :) (can also apply to circuit racers - Mr Thurston in his Escort springs to mind :) )
So drifting is a distillation of this - with the speed factor removed you can get bigger, more lurid slides and not worry about scrubbing off speed too much. So all good fun. The only remaining problem I have is how you work out who won - like anything based on a judging panel it's all subjective. With a race or rally there is a clear winner - first across the line / quickest time, awarding points on style etc is a less exact science but that doesn't make it a less valid form of competition.
:) Now that's a quote I like :Shake:
:laugh: I should leave it at this point and exit stage left really....
but...
I'm honestly shocked by some of the garbage being spread here. I really thought that afficianados of motorsport might realise that 'boy racers' have been about ever since... ooooh, since that infernal combustion engine was invented. Illegal races (Yes! They race! Against the clock and against each other! Let's close down all the race tracks!) and car park exhibitionism really isn't an issue. This isn't the place to be going all 'Daily Mail'.
I've only seen a few drift events, but I'm pretty taken by it. I don't think many people here actually understand how a drift competition works. The individual runs are judged on style, but in the two car runs there is a lead and a following car. If the lead car can pull out a gap without screwing up then it wins. Conversely, if the following car can keep up or overtake, then it takes the run. There are all kinds of strategies, feints, and generally competitive activity that can be compressed into these short runs.
And the D1 cars especially are great pieces of engineering. 'Motorsport' is the conjunction of two words - the sport doesn't exist without the engineering, and unlike drag racing, where the driver is often a token piece of meat, signifying the human endeavour that has gone into the production of the machine, a drift run is more than just the culmination of time spent in the workshop. Its a much more finely balanced moment where the input of the driver must equal the abilities of the machine. A proper team sport in other words.
(actually I'm being a bit unfair to drag racers, but only to make a point... there are ways in which drifting and drag racing are similar. They both take a quite narrow range of skills from the generality of driving and place them under microscopic and intense examination. They are the 'close-ups' of motorsport)
Drifting is definetaly a motorsport, series like D1 and Formula D get lots of spectators and sponsors, the competitors use cars with motors and compete against each other in the two car battle (Forget its proper name) while trying to Drift and overtake at the same time.
I really thought that afficianados of motorsport might realise that 'boy racers' have been about ever since... ooooh, since that infernal combustion engine was invented. This isn't the place to be going all 'Daily Mail'.
Yep. But at the moment 'official' drifting isn't high profile and most people will only be aware of it from hollywoods viewpoint or the local scallies ripping up Tescos car park. It's not a fair representation but it's something that the sport will need to address somehow.
I don't think many people here actually understand how a drift competition works.
I'm totally clueless on that front :) the only drifting I've seen 'live' is the demo stuff in the live action arena at the Autosport show.
And the D1 cars especially are great pieces of engineering.
Definitely :brm: some of those cars have outrageous amounts of power, the drivetrains must be fairly hefty to cope with all that grunt. They're certainly not held together with string and gaffer tape!
I don't think people are generally 'anti' drifting as a rule - I just don't think people know much about it and make judgements based on limited (and flawed ;) ) knowledge.
BigDaddy 8 Jul 2006, 05:48 I don't think people are generally 'anti' drifting as a rule - I just don't think people know much about it and make judgements based on limited (and flawed ;) ) knowledge.
The most intelligent thing written in this thread!!
It's not a fair representation but it's something that the sport will need to address somehow
It'll take time... I suppose drag racing is the case history to study in this respect. The formation of the NHRA, in the States, moved drag racing from outlaw status to legitimate sport. I'm not sure if there's any over-arching body governing Drift events yet. Maybe someone can elucidate that further...
Dani Filth 8 Jul 2006, 21:38 there are FIA sanctioned drag racing championships
regarding drifting .. i hate "drifting"(and "drag racing").. but not the sport part of it .. after all .. i like Tractor Pulling :)
there are FIA sanctioned drag racing championships
I'm sure there are... I'm just speculating as to what kind of organisation/s might develop to promote drifting as a legitimate sport. Is it even desirable to create large scale bodies to 'police' an activity still in the early stages of its life?
BigDaddy 9 Jul 2006, 01:55 Drifting in Australia is sanctioned by both the AASA and CAMS. CAMS is the FIA affiliate in Australia so I guess it must be some sort of motor racing.
Al Weyman 9 Jul 2006, 09:14 It might be some form of motorsport but motor racing, never!
Not sure whether you're looking over the edge or digging a deeper foxhole with that comment!
Al Weyman 9 Jul 2006, 14:45 Motor racing is surely defined as the one who goes from A to B the fastest is the winner be that against the clock or directly on the track not how many times he lights up or smokes his tyres on the way. I will concede by definition it can be construed as motorsport however.
Motor racing is surely defined as the one who goes from A to B the fastest is the winner be that against the clock or directly on the track not how many times he lights up or smokes his tyres on the way. I will concede by definition it can be construed as motorsport however.
Yeah, I see what you mean (though I think while single car runs fit your definition, the pursuit element of dual runs makes the whole argument a bit blurry again, since to keep up or overtake from an inferior start position is to prove yourself faster)
gttouring 9 Jul 2006, 16:40 drfiting is a motor event- but SPORT? Racing? NAY!
it is akin to figure skating as a "sport."
neat to watch but not real way to quantify excllence...
The STIG 9 Jul 2006, 16:51 I'm with GTTouring on this one. It's a Motor Competition but not a sport. Figure skating is also a performance competition but not really a sport as such.
silver bullet 9 Jul 2006, 17:05 It all depends how you define the word sport. I know some people who say there are only three sports, hunting, shooting and fishing, everything else are just games and hobbies.
I go with the Concise Oxfords definition :- Sport, A game or competitive activity
Baritone2400 9 Jul 2006, 17:41 really to me its like glorifed burnouts but since i tried it in my freinds 240 it actually does reqire some skill so yes it is motorsport
drfiting is a motor event- but SPORT? Racing? NAY!
it is akin to figure skating as a "sport."
neat to watch but not real way to quantify excllence...
Whatever...
Really, how many times are you geezers going to drag that one out?
I think the debate has moved on.
Slippy Diff 9 Jul 2006, 22:54 Whatever...
Really, how many times are you geezers going to drag that one out?
I think the debate has moved on.
I'd guess that you have more than a passing interest in 'drifting', competitor or organiser or fan?
Slippy Diff 9 Jul 2006, 22:58 So now your going to say that boxing is'nt a sport.
Err, yeah, by my definition. It's fine if one of the guys beats the living **** out of his opponent and knocks him out, but if it has to be decided by the judges it's all about who put on the best show.
Slippy Diff 9 Jul 2006, 23:00 Anyway I went to a drift connection in Morrisons car park.
I'm still wiping the tea of my monitor screen. Here lies the problem. Drifting will never be taken seriously whilst it is still linked to the baseball cap brigade.
The STIG 9 Jul 2006, 23:30 Here lies the problem. Drifting will never be taken seriously whilst it is still linked to the baseball cap brigade.
Thus another Stig Point (tm) is inadvertantly seconded...
There's no easy way around that though
Al Weyman 9 Jul 2006, 23:37 Ice dancing I would say is a sport, a ruddy tough one as well. I had this woman who used to work for me was a top exponent of the sport and one tough lady and the injuries she sustained was horrendus, takes a lot more guts than driving a racing car around with all the protective gear IMHO.
Slippy Diff 10 Jul 2006, 00:29 Thus another Stig Point (tm) is inadvertantly seconded...
Great minds. Well, mine is anyway.... ;)
BigDaddy 10 Jul 2006, 01:28 New Hoon laws in Australia give the police the power to impound cars. This will hopefully take drifting out of the industrial parks and onto the race tracks, especially if these people think they are going to lose their car. The drifters that compete on the track would never dream of doing it on the public streets, and are working hard to make drifting succeed.
Slippy Diff 10 Jul 2006, 01:46 Cool
http://lard.smugmug.com/photos/80596232-O.jpg
Not cool
http://lard.smugmug.com/photos/80596197-L.jpg
silver bullet 10 Jul 2006, 01:51 OK so drifting is cool, baseball hats arn't cool.
silver bullet 10 Jul 2006, 01:57 New Hoon laws in Australia give the police the power to impound cars. This will hopefully take drifting out of the industrial parks and onto the race tracks, especially if these people think they are going to lose their car. The drifters that compete on the track would never dream of doing it on the public streets, and are working hard to make drifting succeed.The sooner this happens the better. The distinction needs to be made between competitive drifting as a sport and illegal cruises.
BigDaddy 10 Jul 2006, 02:53 Whilst it takes place on the streets in its illegal forms it will never be recognised as a sport, just as a bunch of young hoons, so I guess we can blame the ********s that do it on the streets as to why so many people argue that it is not a sport.
EvilPumpkin 10 Jul 2006, 09:58 Ok so what about illegal street racing then? Does that mean that circuit racing is bad because people also race illegally on the roads?
Oh and I don't think it's baseball caps in general that are bad - just anything Burberry. Does anyone else remember when Burberry was posh? Sorry, that's totally off topic - I'll start a thread for that in PF! :)
Chris Y 10 Jul 2006, 10:27 Ok so what about illegal street racing then? Does that mean that circuit racing is bad because people also race illegally on the roads?
Not per se, but the damage to the image of the sport is the same. The difference is that circuit racing is more 'established' (in time if not popularity with the hoons). Drifting is in its infancy, and its image as a 'serious' sport/event/competition is being tarnished by the car park warriors.
I'd guess that you have more than a passing interest in 'drifting', competitor or organiser or fan?
At this moment in time, only a spectator. I wouldn't say fan, but only because my occasional job as a writer prevents me from being a fan of anything! :) Always need a bit of critical distance...
The STIG 10 Jul 2006, 14:22 New Hoon laws in Australia give the police the power to impound cars.
Here's the Ontario approach : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAICt5pACz8
Bout time they did this everywhere worldwide IMO
Al Weyman 10 Jul 2006, 21:09 My son James God rest his soul, was a young guy (18 when he died he would be 27 now) who owned a Mini and got in with a crowd and the thing was to do handbrake turns and fool about in general in car parks like these idiots are doing now (its hard to drift in a front wheel drive car, look at the idiots in the Escort in the video clip so yanking on the handbrake is the only way to step the backend out) which resulted in him wearing the rear brake shoes out a few months after I had fitted new ones.
On a return journey from one of these car park 'meets' he lost control of the car went head on into the oncoming traffic killed himself and the young lady (16) with him, seriously injured the young couple in the back and another young couple in the car he hit head on. The Police report had shown that the rear brake shoes had come delaminated and may have locked up a back wheel (we will never really know as it was left as an open verdict).
I have to live with this everyday and blame my passion for motorsport as a factor in all this although I never drive fast on the roads so please lets discourage this illegal practice in car parks and any form of Motorsport that allows cars to be driven back from any event on the road as no doubt some these Drifters will be and I would wager that many don't even change their tyres. Trailer to a proper organised event and I have no problem with this form of the sport as each to their own, anything else as promoted by these ridiculous Hollywood movies just ain't on IMHO.
Slippy Diff 10 Jul 2006, 22:49 OK so drifting is cool, baseball hats arn't cool.
OK, maybe I was being too subtle. The pic of the Burberry baseball cap was more of a euphenism for the type of person attracted to the display that is drifting; a male approximately 18 years old who is also remarkably spotty due to the amount of burgers consumed whilst parked up in burger joint car parks, small front wheel drive hatch with an assortment of plastic appendages, a girlfriend very much in the style of the Vicky Pollard character from Little Britain (yes we get it over here) and no regular job.
I know it's generalising, but tell me I'm wrong....
There is definitely an element of skill involved but at the end of the day, you can take drifting out of the car parks but can you take the car park out of drifting?
The STIG 10 Jul 2006, 23:32 A tragic tale Al, and one many young drivers would do well to read.
lets discourage this illegal practice in car parks and any form of Motorsport that allows cars to be driven back from any event on the road as no doubt some these Drifters will be and I would wager that many don't even change their tyres. Trailer to a proper organised event and I have no problem with this form of the sport as each to their own, anything else as promoted by these ridiculous Hollywood movies just ain't on IMHO.
I've seen cars being driven away from circuit races on the roads - although normally with a stack of tyres in the boot. Ditto Autotesting, Sprints and of course rallying.
Drifting however is the only motor competition which involves deliberately destroying the tyres. I would suggest that instead of insisting that the cars be transported via trailer (which involves taking an extra road driving test, another vehicle, a trailer, and lots of money) the tyres are checked by a suitable official before leaving the venue. Prehaps VOSA can be persuaded to have a checkpoint at the gate of the venue to enforce this scince it is a road traffic problem.
This of course, does not remove the problem of the Illegal events, but the only way of making this safe is to force the illegal "competitors" into entering a legal competition. This is highly unlikely however.
touringlegend 10 Jul 2006, 23:35 There was a very interesting feature on Drifting on Fifth Gear tonight in the UK. Be worth catching the repeat if you can.
Al, as The STIG says that hopefully is a lesson to many other drivers.
Trailer to a proper organised event
That's a harsh way to acquire wisdom, but its wisdom nonetheless. All the more respect for not allowing such a loss to taint your continuing passion.
Pretty much all the events I've been to, the cars have been trailered in. They're track cars, designed to a standard in order to do a very particular job. Though the D1GB rules are fairly clear in wanting to maintain a strong connection between competition cars and the production vehicles they are based on
http://www.d1gb.co.uk/rules.asp#1
the type of person attracted to the display that is drifting
You'll be glad to know that I'm a working class, middle aged, motorcyclist, with (reasonably) clear skin!
Slippy Diff 11 Jul 2006, 00:50 You'll be glad to know that I'm a working class, middle aged, motorcyclist, with (reasonably) clear skin!
:) So what do you ride?
BigDaddy 11 Jul 2006, 01:20 Sorry to hear that Al, I can see the points you are making now and they do make better sense to me. The Drift club that I am involved with offers a tyre changing facility at the Drift days and in no way supports or tolerates illegal competition, in fact the local police have even been present at the last 2 drift days. Your point about driving vehicles home, well thats always going to happen, but the good thing about drifting is half the cars aren't registered and never will be because they are imports that haven't been complied, well thats the case here anyway.
275 GTB-4 12 Jul 2006, 11:36 No way!! :rolleyes:
BigDaddy 12 Jul 2006, 23:55 No way!! :rolleyes:
Care to offer any sort of justification to your opinion or are you just going to leave it at that? very childish I think!
:) So what do you ride?
I've had a series of small bore sports bikes. Just sold a TZR125 (late eighties model without fairing) that I originally bought on a whim. Had ideas about restoring it, but it was just so much fun in London traffic, and so cheap to run, I ended up using it as my daily ride. Sold it to someone who would give it the tlc I was never going to find time for!
BigDaddy 17 Jul 2006, 06:02 There is still no legitimate argument to say that Drifting is not motorsport.
Slippy Diff 17 Jul 2006, 06:07 There is still no legitimate argument to say that Drifting is not motorsport.
Until I see it listed here (http://www.fia.com/sport/Championships/2006.html), I agree with 275 GTB-4.
BigDaddy 17 Jul 2006, 06:16 But who says that the FIA decide what is motorsport and what is not? Are they the self appointed rulers of motorsport? There is plenty of motorsport that happens that the FIA knows nothing about - think about it......
Slippy Diff 17 Jul 2006, 06:22 Are they the self appointed rulers of motorsport?Try telling them otherwise.
There is plenty of motorsport that happens that the FIA knows nothing aboutThey are the font of all motorsport knowledge. They may not know about those forms of motorsport that require a tin foil hat however.
BigDaddy 17 Jul 2006, 06:50 The AASA runs National motorsport events in Australia that the FIA know nothing about, Does Nascar fall under the FIA?
Al Weyman 17 Jul 2006, 21:34 Or short circuit racing!
Slippy Diff 17 Jul 2006, 23:08 The AASA runs National motorsport events in Australia that the FIA know nothing aboutOh, they'll know about it.
Does Nascar fall under the FIA?You can't use the US as an example. They take about as much notice of the FIA as they do of the UN.
Slippy Diff 18 Jul 2006, 01:26 http://www.arizonaliving.us/mccoy.gif
That's drifting.
BigDaddy 18 Jul 2006, 01:47 The only reason the FIA would know about is because CAMS are complaining because it is the people they screwed that are leaving them to run at the AASA events.
Why can't I use the US as an example, is that because it doesn't suit your argument? Is it because I have brought up a relevant fact?
Slippy Diff 18 Jul 2006, 01:58 Why can't I use the US as an example, is that because it doesn't suit your argument? Is it because I have brought up a relevant fact?
Woah woah, don't turn purple, it wasn't meant as a serious comment, I was trying to be funny (operative word 'trying'). The title of the thread reads 'Is drifting motorsport?' not 'please posts facts to determine whether drifting is motorsport or not'. In my opinion it ain't.
Taken from another site discussing the same question "I keep waiting for them to use skater-like terminology . . . "Joey just pulled a front-side juicy spliffer, and waxed Jimmy's Nissan into a radical a**hat grab. Whoooooa, man!"
BigDaddy 18 Jul 2006, 03:08 There are technical terms for all the moves.....
alfacors 22 Jul 2006, 10:10 Drifting is motorsport. It involves cars, it involves racetracks, and it involves a winner. Therefore it is motorsport. What is NOT, is motor RACING.
and FWIW, I am heavily involved in the Drift scene in NSW, with ties to Initial Drift Australia (the first CAMS affiliated Drift Club in the country) as well as the Drift Australia (National) Series. I am a circuit racer at heart though (albeit not a very good one!) and that is where my allegiances lie, but Drift is an emerging sport and is continuing to grow at a rapid pace. I've seen it grow from a demo at a Procar event in 2004 through to a National Championship the following year, to this year's Championships with double the fields of 2005 (and with a wait list for entries!).
Whether you like it or not, whether you consider it a motorsport or not, it's here and here to stay.
Whether you like it or not, whether you consider it a motorsport or not, it's here and here to stay.
I agree, and I, for one, think it is great that it so!:)
BigDaddy 24 Jul 2006, 01:05 Drifting is motorsport. It involves cars, it involves racetracks, and it involves a winner. Therefore it is motorsport. What is NOT, is motor RACING.
and FWIW, I am heavily involved in the Drift scene in NSW, with ties to Initial Drift Australia (the first CAMS affiliated Drift Club in the country) as well as the Drift Australia (National) Series. I am a circuit racer at heart though (albeit not a very good one!) and that is where my allegiances lie, but Drift is an emerging sport and is continuing to grow at a rapid pace. I've seen it grow from a demo at a Procar event in 2004 through to a National Championship the following year, to this year's Championships with double the fields of 2005 (and with a wait list for entries!).
Whether you like it or not, whether you consider it a motorsport or not, it's here and here to stay.
You don't have anything to do with the running of the DA events do you? Wayne?? :p
nickyf1 24 Jul 2006, 12:06 http://www.arizonaliving.us/mccoy.gif
That's drifting.
is it posible to have that as an avatar?
Well, I just gave it a go...but it would only show a still of the first frame in avatar form.
alfacors 25 Jul 2006, 12:12 You don't have anything to do with the running of the DA events do you? Wayne?? :p
LOL, I'm not Wayne, but you will see me at Eastern Creek this weekend shooting the DA Series ;)
Alan Cherry 25 Jul 2006, 20:30 Not a sport, but that is not mean't to say it has any less value - I wish I could drift like some of the demo's iv'e seen on TV. However IMHO a sport is the quickest/longest/highest and the words subjective and objective appear in the argument somewhere.
However half the sports in the Olympics don't fall within my Criteria of sport- so what do I know ?
It has a valid place in entertainment, and for those taking part- no reason why it shouldn't be mixed with more 'traditional' motorsport though !
Phil Morrison 26 Aug 2006, 13:29 What an interesting read!! :). I haven't got an hour to sit and read every post, but from scanning through, I've got to say that I'm refreshed to see that there are finally some positive comments coming from people involved in other forms of motorsports.
It's nice to see that we are starting to get comments from people who have actually seen drifting. Instead of just the usual 'I don't know anything about it, so it must just be about kids wearing hoodies pulling the handbrake in carparks' attitude that is all to common.
I am the current number one in the D1GB which is Europes premiere drift championship, and I'd just like to offer my services here if anyone has any questions on drifting :)..
I've got a few replys for some of the people have commented on this thread, who have obviously not been to a drift even.
I'm still ammused by people thinking that we don't go fast.. Just to let you know, the original layout we used at Rockingham for round one, involved an initiation on corner four at around 130mph. yes that is forcing the car to go to the lock stops at around 130mph.. We enter Silverstones Brooklands and 110mph sideways with a couple of feet between us.. Drifting is fast, and it's not for the faint hearted.
We've got drivers from all other forms of motorsports coming over to drifting, and the attitude is often that they think they will jump in a full works car, and kick our arses, as driftings easy.. isn't it?????
The latest driver to do this was Tiff Needel, who hopped into one of the most competitive cars this season for 2 rounds. This is one of the most famous people for going sideways in this country. He's a great bloke, and really seemed to enjoy himself, but didn't once qualify for the top 16 (and don't believe everything that you see on television ;) )..In reality it's not as simple as that. Yes there is an element of car setup involved in being at the top, but it's nothing like alot of other forms of motorsport where development time, equipment, and lets face it money have a very large sway on finishing position. Driver skill prevails.
For the record, even at the top level, we don't take drifting too seriously. It is entertainment, but then so is any other motorsport, and yes drifting is a motorsport.
Build yourself a car, get yourself a license, and come and feel the atmosphere on the startline, witness the commeradery if anyone has a car problem etc. But most importantly I defy anyone to not get out of the car grinning after their first succesfull run :cool: .
touringlegend 26 Aug 2006, 22:21 Hi Phil nice post. :)
I was at Knockhill the day after the Drift event there and was impressed by how well prepared the cars looked in the awning (and the track action!) - not sure if you stayed on for that - I think the lightning nearly killed us all that day!
nickyf1 26 Aug 2006, 23:23 I will see if I can get to the D1GB Next year.
Phil Morrison 27 Aug 2006, 12:32 Hi Phil nice post. :)
I was at Knockhill the day after the Drift event there and was impressed by how well prepared the cars looked in the awning (and the track action!) - not sure if you stayed on for that - I think the lightning nearly killed us all that day!
Hi :) I was just there the day before for the D1GB round 3, we decided to go back, as we had the whole trade stand set up, and nobody in Scotland buys anything :D:D.
It's a shame you didn't get to see the Saturday, as the Sunday only had a couple of the professionals stay on as far as I know, and the battle drift on the Sunday was some of the best we have done..
Knockhill was an absolutely awesome track, it required some serious faith initiating the drift at around 110mph with the completely blind falling right hander :cool:
touringlegend 27 Aug 2006, 23:32 I sort of know what you mean. It seems daunting enough at 45mph in an Ibiza Cupra. Pointing ahead! :p
s-crutineer 29 Sep 2006, 00:29 I've been involved in driftracing this year as an official.
Before my first event My only impression was from seeing a demo but TBH it really dosn't show it at its best .
I can honestly say that IMHO it's a motorport that should have a huge future! Certainly some of the closest and most exciting i've ever seen.... and as a scrut.. i see many events. Dont judge it from a demo or even worse from the idea of a "chav" handbraking a car round a carpark - the reality is very different!
what does sadden me is all the bickering like in here ..... surely we should all be united with a love of motorsport against numpties that would want to stop it rather than bickering about a definition of whats motorsport / racing etc?
Oh well .... where did I put my probans? I feel a flaming approaching:) and on my first post as well
turbodrift 30 Sep 2006, 19:29 Myself and my team have worked very hard to establish the sport of drifting in the UK. I have worked with instructors from silverstone and other venues to help them understand the ins and outs of this crazy sport. With entry of the D1 who use the race circuits it has shown that it can put back the excitment and fun of motor sport. No one can deny that motor sport has lost popularity in some sectors over the last few years.
Drifting will put back this wow factor and compliment some other types of motor sport. More race tracks are willing to work with us as we have proved we are a profesional organisation with Health & safety a priority however you can still have fun and excitment within the rules.
The €urodrift series acts as a feeder for new talent to go into D1 we tend to use more technical tracks like Teeside Autodrome and other Go-Kart circuits plus airfields around the UK.
I believe it is here to stay as a different form of motor sport entertainment.
www.eurodrift.com
www.driftuk.co.uk
www.driftskool.co.uk
Al Weyman 30 Sep 2006, 19:35 I was reading somewhere that drifters fully lock thier diffs, is this true and if so do they still use them on the road?
turbodrift 30 Sep 2006, 19:51 I was reading somewhere that drifters fully lock thier diffs, is this true and if so do they still use them on the road?
Some drifters do fully lock their diffs some do use them on the roads
dazbaz_99 1 Oct 2006, 13:14 Drifting IMO is motorsport yes, its driver and machine against other competitors therefore I think it should be counted.
Al Weyman 1 Oct 2006, 13:44 Some drifters do fully lock their diffs some do use them on the roadsThat must be fun chirping the rears on the road at every corner:) Isnt a full locked diff on a road car illegal in some parts.
turbodrift 1 Oct 2006, 14:40 That must be fun chirping the rears on the road at every corner:) Isnt a full locked diff on a road car illegal in some parts.
they are not illegal however i personnally dont think they shoud use them on the road as at high speed i have seen them blow.
Al Weyman 1 Oct 2006, 19:52 If you weld the spiders up thats what will happen, much safer to fit a spool, you won't break one of them!
Slippy Diff 1 Oct 2006, 23:18 What an interesting read!! :). I haven't got an hour to sit and read every post, but from scanning through, I've got to say that I'm refreshed to see that there are finally some positive comments coming from people involved in other forms of motorsports.
It's nice to see that we are starting to get comments from people who have actually seen drifting. Instead of just the usual 'I don't know anything about it, so it must just be about kids wearing hoodies pulling the handbrake in carparks' attitude that is all to common.
I am the current number one in the D1GB which is Europes premiere drift championship, and I'd just like to offer my services here if anyone has any questions on drifting :)..
I've got a few replys for some of the people have commented on this thread, who have obviously not been to a drift even.
I'm still ammused by people thinking that we don't go fast.. Just to let you know, the original layout we used at Rockingham for round one, involved an initiation on corner four at around 130mph. yes that is forcing the car to go to the lock stops at around 130mph.. We enter Silverstones Brooklands and 110mph sideways with a couple of feet between us.. Drifting is fast, and it's not for the faint hearted.
We've got drivers from all other forms of motorsports coming over to drifting, and the attitude is often that they think they will jump in a full works car, and kick our arses, as driftings easy.. isn't it?????
The latest driver to do this was Tiff Needel, who hopped into one of the most competitive cars this season for 2 rounds. This is one of the most famous people for going sideways in this country. He's a great bloke, and really seemed to enjoy himself, but didn't once qualify for the top 16 (and don't believe everything that you see on television ;) )..In reality it's not as simple as that. Yes there is an element of car setup involved in being at the top, but it's nothing like alot of other forms of motorsport where development time, equipment, and lets face it money have a very large sway on finishing position. Driver skill prevails.
For the record, even at the top level, we don't take drifting too seriously. It is entertainment, but then so is any other motorsport, and yes drifting is a motorsport.
Build yourself a car, get yourself a license, and come and feel the atmosphere on the startline, witness the commeradery if anyone has a car problem etc. But most importantly I defy anyone to not get out of the car grinning after their first succesfull run :cool: .
Nicely put. I don't doubt that there is a great deal of speed and talent involved, for the whole issue is that it's a judged 'sport'. One judge thinks you did a great job, another thinks you didn't :Shrug: who's right?
alfacors 6 Oct 2006, 09:20 There is no "right" in a judged sport. Look at the top level judges they use for the Olympics etc, and look at the wildly varying scores they give out. It's human nature.
Slippy Diff 9 Oct 2006, 23:13 There is no "right" in a judged sport.
I was asking rhetorically.
alfacors 10 Oct 2006, 02:39 A lot of people don't think of it in a rhetorical sense though. It's weird that guys who compete in a subjectively judged competition still don't understand the nature of subjective judging....... :(
If drifting gets popular enough, TC might be introduced for safety reasons.
Captain VXR 10 Jul 2007, 18:49 I doubt it - the roll cages in EDC cars are very well built and thick and also race car spec safety devices are used eg emergency engine cut off so the driver has nearly as much protection as a BTCC car
Jacko44 12 Jul 2007, 15:01 If you're versing other cars in racing-like competition... it's motorsport
Captain VXR 12 Jul 2007, 17:39 If you're ... versing other cars in racing-like competition it's motorsport
Are you saying rallying isn't motorsport then?
Motorsport = competitive competition in vehicles
Motorracing = versing other cars in racing-like competition
End of
duke_toaster 12 Jul 2007, 19:27 Or, my preffered definiton
Motorsport = a competition between participants in motor vehicles in which they compete to either complete a set course in the fastest time, be it simulatinously or separatly against the clock.
As there is no right in a judged sport, it can't really and IMO shouldn't be FIA or MSA sanctioned.
Al Weyman 12 Jul 2007, 21:20 I think VXR has a good point, if its using motors and is a sport then its motorsport surely whether you approve or not. And VXR I hope its a rear wheel drive Monaro you use for drifting because I watched some muppets in the paddock car park at Silverstone the other week tryingto 'drift' and XR3 and somehow it just did not work, wonder why? :-)
Captain VXR 13 Jul 2007, 21:41 I think VXR has a good point, if its using motors and is a sport then its motorsport surely whether you approve or not. And VXR I hope its a rear wheel drive Monaro you use for drifting because I watched some muppets in the paddock car park at Silverstone the other week tryingto 'drift' and XR3 and somehow it just did not work, wonder why? :-)
Front wheel drives can't drift and neither can 4wds. BTW I don't have a Monaro lol wish I had.
Al Weyman 15 Jul 2007, 10:12 I know, I was trying to be sarcastic/funny! Monaro would though. :-)
Nick101 16 Jul 2007, 12:39 from my point of view drifting is a motorsport show.
its a motorsport in that vehicles are used and compete, but i see it as a show as in that it is there to shock and awe people.
its a hard activity/hobby to classify i think. a lot of people would love to say it is a fully fledged motorsport but the atmosphere is a lot different and if it continues to be marketed as a motorsport it will die off.
its a long the lines of monster truck racing or something like that, yes there is a competition going on but also it is there to make jaws drop to the floor?
is that a rubbish analogy?probably!
Captain VXR 16 Jul 2007, 18:48 from my point of view drifting is a motorsport show.
its a motorsport in that vehicles are used and compete, but i see it as a show as in that it is there to shock and awe people.
its a hard activity/hobby to classify i think. a lot of people would love to say it is a fully fledged motorsport but the atmosphere is a lot different and if it continues to be marketed as a motorsport it will die off.
its a long the lines of monster truck racing or something like that, yes there is a competition going on but also it is there to make jaws drop to the floor?
is that a rubbish analogy?probably!
Its not a rubbish analogy at all Nick. Drifting simply is a motorsport but of a different sort to the usual
Captain VXR 16 Jul 2007, 18:49 Or, my preffered definiton
Motorsport = a competition between participants in motor vehicles in which they compete to either complete a set course in the fastest time, be it simulatinously or separatly against the clock.
As there is no right in a judged sport, it can't really and IMO shouldn't be FIA or MSA sanctioned.
How about motorsport = compeitive sport in vehicles :p
Nick101 16 Jul 2007, 19:18 good glad people got the analogy.
i often wonder how people involved in "normal" motorsport. regard drifting, i often see lots of club racers saying " oh yeh i can do that" but really its a complete different driving style. most race/rally guys who come along to drift events often find themselves struggling due to having to unlearn their own techniques.
i currently am one of the organisers and judges of the eurodrift pro/am championship. www.eurodrift.com (http://www.eurodrift.com/) and it is always interesting to read/hear how racers and rallydrivers and fans of traditional motorsport think of it.
a lot of people think it is daft or chavvy, but well thats there loss. i myself never think motorsport should be marketed as a traditional motorsport. it just won't work in this country i think there is too much of a stigma attached to it. i think other championships who do are marketing this way are making a mistake or at least in for a very long wait.
aside from all that, its brilliant fun in cars with a competitive yet friendly atmosphere so why should we have to label everything. :cool: :) .
silver bullet 16 Jul 2007, 20:33 Hi Nick and welcome to Ten-Tenths. :)
I like you're analogy ;)
I think there are a couple of reasons why Drifting has struggled to be taken seriously by certain sections of British motorsport.
Firstly films like Fast & Furious Tokyo drift, and the boy racers in Tesco car parks, with there maxed up cars. The general public associate this, and the cruise scene with Drifting.
Secondly. There is a lot of elitism in UK motorsport. Many people look down there noses at any form of minority or alternative motorsport, whether it be Drifting, Oval Racing, Off Roading, etc, etc. When in reality the people involved in these disciplines approach there chosen form of motorsport with as much professionalism, pride and enthusiasm as any single seater or tin-top racer.
I think anyone who criticises Drifting, without seeing it first hand, should make the effort to go along to a Drift Meeting. I think you would be amazed at the level of skill, the professionalism and the competitive atmosphere. Also you would be surprised at the size of the crowd, and the buzz around the place. It's totally different to your average circuit race meeting.
Jacko44 18 Jul 2007, 12:32 Are you saying rallying isn't motorsport then?
Motorsport = competitive competition in vehicles
Motorracing = versing other cars in racing-like competition
End of
If you're versing other cars.............. doesn't have to be at the same time.... hmmm dug meself a hole there
Captain VXR 19 Aug 2007, 14:11 Hi Nick and welcome to Ten-Tenths. :)
I like you're analogy ;)
I think there are a couple of reasons why Drifting has struggled to be taken seriously by certain sections of British motorsport.
Firstly films like Fast & Furious Tokyo drift, and the boy racers in Tesco car parks, with there maxed up cars. The general public associate this, and the cruise scene with Drifting.
Secondly. There is a lot of elitism in UK motorsport. Many people look down there noses at any form of minority or alternative motorsport, whether it be Drifting, Oval Racing, Off Roading, etc, etc. When in reality the people involved in these disciplines approach there chosen form of motorsport with as much professionalism, pride and enthusiasm as any single seater or tin-top racer.
I think anyone who criticises Drifting, without seeing it first hand, should make the effort to go along to a Drift Meeting. I think you would be amazed at the level of skill, the professionalism and the competitive atmosphere. Also you would be surprised at the size of the crowd, and the buzz around the place. It's totally different to your average circuit race meeting.
I agree 100% I went to EDC Silverstone and it was fab and action and tenseness was on a par with the btcc. Its a shame Maz (EDC commentater) got his flags mixed up, annoying the group of Poles who were probably the best fans where I was and certainly were the tidiest. Plus at EDC events you get Time Attack, a sport where heavily tuned cars do battle with hot laps an the cars represent renowned tuning companies in the pro class eg Reyland, Norris Designs and the club challenge for less extreme cars normally privatly owned. If you think drifting is easy get yourself to an EDC licensing day and you'll get squat. The organisers of Eurodrift (Drift UK) and the EDC organisers have been in the sport way before f&f td so they aint some profit loving jdm bummers
thejester 22 Aug 2007, 07:06 What a fascinating thread!
Well, it must be, as I've sat here and read 11 pages of posts.
Here in NZ, drifting is growing incredibly quickly. Thanks a great deal, I believe to the proximity of Japan and their well-priced, easily modd-able cars. Japan being arguably the spiritual home of drifting.
I have to say, while I am absolutely certain that by my definition, it's a sport, I often get bored and change channel when it comes on in the middle of my favourite weekend motorsport show. Although I'd happily watch it in the flesh, though more for the spectacle than the competition. On tv, it's a little dry, despite the feverish commentary style that seems to accompany it. For a while we saw some of the Japanese competition, which has clearly a high degree of financial backing, and that was somewhat more exciting.
I think the style of driving clearly requires a great deal of skill, but the competition format doesn't really do it for me. Rather than the short paired runs, I'd like to see longer individual runs to enable me to see, appreciate and compare the styles of the drivers. More of an x-games style format. Perhaps even a large course with various corners and soft obstacles to skim, with freedom to choose and create 'drift runs'. I think the present format straddles the fence, rather uncomfortably, between a head-to-head race and a more expressive/style contest.
Calorus 23 Aug 2007, 15:01 What a fascinating thread!
Well, it must be, as I've sat here and read 11 pages of posts.
Here in NZ, drifting is growing incredibly quickly. Thanks a great deal, I believe to the proximity of Japan and their well-priced, easily modd-able cars. Japan being arguably the spiritual home of drifting.
I have to say, while I am absolutely certain that by my definition, it's a sport, I often get bored and change channel when it comes on in the middle of my favourite weekend motorsport show. Although I'd happily watch it in the flesh, though more for the spectacle than the competition. On tv, it's a little dry, despite the feverish commentary style that seems to accompany it. For a while we saw some of the Japanese competition, which has clearly a high degree of financial backing, and that was somewhat more exciting.
I think the style of driving clearly requires a great deal of skill, but the competition format doesn't really do it for me. Rather than the short paired runs, I'd like to see longer individual runs to enable me to see, appreciate and compare the styles of the drivers. More of an x-games style format. Perhaps even a large course with various corners and soft obstacles to skim, with freedom to choose and create 'drift runs'. I think the present format straddles the fence, rather uncomfortably, between a head-to-head race and a more expressive/style contest.
The X-games comment says it all:
Drifting is to Racing, as
Figure Skating is to Speed Skating, as
Freestyle *MX is to *Motorcross, as
Showjumping is Horse racing.
It IS a motorsport because it is a sport, and it is automotive.
minimangler 12 Nov 2007, 00:35 Not come here before, so hello.
yes, it is motorsport; its a competition involivng cars.
thumbs up from me :)
Go on then, I'll chip my 2p's in.
It's certainly a competition in that dancing is, or figureskating is and I don't deny it takes a lot of skill to do. I think what gets people's backs up is that there's no definite measureable result, it's based on judge's opinoins, whereas racing, highjump, javelin, etc. have a definite output, times, height, measured distance.
Up unil recently within the world of motorsport there's only ever really been timed events, i.e. racing of some form, be it circuit, rally, hillclimb, drag, a million others.
I guess the argument arises in whether Motorsport can encompas something that isn't racing (which Drifting certainly isn't).
I believe it can.
ScottyGibbs 14 Dec 2007, 01:20 everyone seems hell bent on the idea that drifting isnt racing....
Do you not win a battle if you pass the lead car??? Isnt that racing? If anything drifting is the hardest form of racing. Passing is rare and anyone who can pull it off is a hero. If theres no passing, it comes down to the best execution over the course!
Keep in mind that a pass in drift only counts if done under drift conditions, no straightening and gassing it past ur opponent.
I drove in a motorkhana or as some ppl call em autotest recently and used a drift style to link the course's. Not only was it fast, but I beat a few ppl in my class who have been doing these events since before my birth!
Before everyone is so keen to compare it to figureskating or the alike... get ur backside in a drift car and give it a go. Id say majority of drifters have more skills than your average club level racer.
Yes I drift, yes I wear a baseball cap and no I dont drift on the street!! but if you think that the street element will ruin it for everyone, take a look at drag racing... that started from a street sport much like drift did in Japan... There will always be knobs out there that will try and use the street as a track, regardless of whats in fashion at the time..
orrmate 28 Dec 2007, 02:06 My view is similar to one already posted earlier in the thread. The way I've always looked at drifting is that its Motorsport, because it uses engine-power and it is a competition, but not Motor Racing, because the cars aren't physically racing each other. I also consider Rallying and Hillclimbing to be Motorsport rather than Motor Racing for the same reason (which probably won't be a popular view with some people).
Just one way of looking at it I suppose. To say it isn't MotorSport is unfair imo, especially if Freestyle motocross is considered Motorsport.
Captain VXR 31 Dec 2007, 13:12 everyone seems hell bent on the idea that drifting isnt racing....
Do you not win a battle if you pass the lead car??? Isnt that racing? If anything drifting is the hardest form of racing. Passing is rare and anyone who can pull it off is a hero. If theres no passing, it comes down to the best execution over the course!
Keep in mind that a pass in drift only counts if done under drift conditions, no straightening and gassing it past ur opponent.
I drove in a motorkhana or as some ppl call em autotest recently and used a drift style to link the course's. Not only was it fast, but I beat a few ppl in my class who have been doing these events since before my birth!
Before everyone is so keen to compare it to figureskating or the alike... get ur backside in a drift car and give it a go. Id say majority of drifters have more skills than your average club level racer.
Yes I drift, yes I wear a baseball cap and no I dont drift on the street!! but if you think that the street element will ruin it for everyone, take a look at drag racing... that started from a street sport much like drift did in Japan... There will always be knobs out there that will try and use the street as a track, regardless of whats in fashion at the time..
I'd say the EDC drivers are close to BTCC drivers skill wise especially Phil M, Maciej, Brett C, Mark L, Tony G and Mark J
royalwithcream 21 Nov 2008, 16:04 Hello, I've just joined the site and had a quick look through this thread. I drift myself (BDC) and the sport growing and being taken seriously is an area I've always been interested in.
Regardless of what you call it its growing at a massive rate, its an activity thats in a car and (ideally!) on a race track! Due to its accessibility at the lower levels its bringing in a huge amount of new participants and fans which is exactly what the motorsports industry needs in this time of heavy noise restrictions and unapproval of 'unsociable' machines by Joe Public.
Its a general trend across all sporting activities that people are tending towards more so called 'extreme' sports (a term I don't agree with after doing many all my life) that don't involve competition or racing against the clock, and are more about the actual feel of the sport such as surfing, climbing,etc. Drifting is motorsports for this generation.
IMO Drifting just needs to grow until there's enough people able to drift on full size tracks to run regular drift specific track days and it'll be accepted for what it is. Arguments about motorsports being a race against each other, against the clock, etc as far as I'm concerned are irelevent.
In most motorsports a complete amateur can get in the car and go out on a full racetrack with out crashing, drifting requires a lot more practice at less impressive smaller venues before the driver has enough skill to do this. Because of this many people in the wider motorsports industry only see drifting at smaller venues or they see lower level competitions held on slower and smaller tracks due to the difficulty in judging an event thats not against the clock.
The sport needs competitions to grow in both participants and financial backing, motorsports being expensive as they are, but my goal is to see full tracks being drifted regularly. I honestly don't think people could not take the 'activity'/'sport' seriously after seeing it done in this way?
Already this year Lydden Hill in particular has offered drift specific groups on their trackdays and Castle Combe has also opened the doors. Its looking likely that next year should see more tracks following this example as more people start drifting who can afford to do bigger venues.
Lydden Hill this year:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bwkYh5Qyg2I&fmt=6
I guess to try and make a point about all my waffle, drifting isn't only about what you see in competitions which can be hard to present in an accessible way. The sport is about the enjoyment of car control at speed and the adrenelin and fun you get from that. Contrary to popular belief you are still in control once a car has lost traction. Its the actual activity rather than who gets over the line first.
royalwithcream 21 Nov 2008, 16:05 Wow! just realised how far back this thread was last replied to!!
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