Instructors

Anyone here ARDS instructors?

Seems to be some UK confusion about what qualifications are necessary for MSA or MSV tracks.

MSV seem to have a policy that you dont need ARDS as long as you are approved by them, but most insurance requirements require ARDS.

We are currently updating our list, so if any of you want to join in email team@easytrack.co.uk or post here.

Be glad of your views anyway :)

Hi Tim
Welcome to 10 Tenths, it's always nice to see new posters ;)
I have copied your post to our Track day forum as it may be of use to them as well.
Regards
Tim.

MSA don't actually run any tracks, so am a little confused over what you are asking.

MSA approved tracks. i.e. Mallory, Coombe etc non msv

I held an ARDS Instructors licence up to 2003, and I'm trying to get it back at the moment (like pushing water up hill with a fork!)(I used to be sponsored by Silverstone Drive)

MSV employ their instructors on a formal contract. Jonathon Palmer never signed up to ARDS, as he didn't think it was necessary with the way he ran Palmersport at the time, and now MSV.

The other circuits went about it to "control" the quality of instructors working at the various race schools & experience centres. It brought in grading, like we have in our race licences, but you only progress if the school that sponsor's you, decides you have met their requirements for "promotion".

I had an ARDS 'C' but spent a lot of my time doing 'B' duties, and taming wayward billies who otherwise didn't listen and could be construed as downright dangerous!.

I thought that when JP took over BHL that the ARDS thing would collapse, but it seems to be continuing with strength.

There are quite a few ARDS venues that are not "active" race circuits. Like Goodwood, Aintree, Three Sisters, etc.. Some are used as sprint venues, some not even that much!

The big ones are Silverstone, Rockingham, and Thruxton.

Rob.

Thanks Rob

I think its the inconsistency from circuits and insurers. I believe there must be some sort of maintained standard for instructors to establish a grading so we know what an instructors abilities are.

At present MSV are the fly in the ointment as its dificult to gauge ability and insurance companies still want some sort of recognised qualification. I would always like to see a 'qualified' guy in a car 'just in case'.

I also believe we could go further with grading. Some B ARDS instructors have the paperwork to support their status, but cant brief a driver!!

Off topic..... I believe you are at Donington this weekend? I'll pop over and say hello.

MSA don't actually run any tracks, so am a little confused over what you are asking.
I think Tim is asking if there are any instructors out there that would like to join the Easytrack mob.

Tim,

Sent you an email but just to add some of those points here also.

First it's worth looking what ARDS actually means and is. It stands for Association Of Racing Driver Schools and is effectively directed by and represents the owners and operators of what, for want of a better word we refer to as Racing Driver Schools.Of course, very few of the members of ARDS run what would be considered a School for Racing Drivers and those that do it represents a very small part of what they actually do. The vast majority of what they provide and therefore what ARDS instructors do is provide Experience days, either as "gifts" or as corporate events.

That's purely down to supply and demand and economics and is effectively the state of the industry. These same organisations also provide the assessments and do the license applications for ARDS instructors. Essentially they are looking for a person who would be competent to provide instruction on these gift days which is much more about observational and interpersonal skills than anything else.

Prior to getting to this stage, the potential instructor must have gained a National A Race license which in turn means they would have to have passed an ARDS Race License Test and got 6 National B license signatures (which could be achieved by completing 6 races or 5 races + marshaling day). This means they should have a reasonable knowledge of circuit safety, an appreciation of race line and some "basic" understanding of correct driving technique. It does not indicated any particular driving skill or understanding beyond the very basics of brake, turn, clip and exit (albeit smoothly & in control although being quick is not a requirement).

So, even by the time an instructor has got a National A race license and passed the initial ARDS Instructor Assessment they do not need to have any particular level of driving skill or understanding beyond the brake/turn/clip/exit mentioned before. However, this is often enough, coupled with reasonable observational and interpersonal skills for them to make a quite adequate experience day instructor. What they of course lack is the experience to deal with every eventuality they might encounter whilst in car next to a customer. This is purely down to time spent in the job and you never stop learning.

What you also need is lots of bottle. Sitting next to anyone driving on a track at speed can be quite nerve-racking but on an average gift day you'll sit next to 25-40. IMO you also have to love the job, well, maybe love is a bit strong but to drive 1, 2 or more hours to a track, put in what is often a 10hr day, often with few breaks and rarely very long for lunch and then drive back home again for what is very little money it's not exactly a good earner.

So, after that slight diversion, back to MSV. They didn't feel the need to employ ARDS instructors, their insurance didn't demand it (although may well have been cheaper) and they felt their own assessment was sufficient for what they wanted to provide. Also, there probably wasn't sufficient numbers of ARDS instructors around at the time their business really took off for them to call on. Certainly there weren't many who would work for the very low rates they were offering and also those who would agree to the exclusivity they wanted at that time, not sure if this has now changed.

Whatever the pro's and con's of the two approaches EVERY instructor MSV & ARDS does a damned difficult job and you have to respect all of them for that. Yes, there are vastly different levels of ability and instructors have their strengths and weaknesses and I guess where Tim is coming from is that there is no way he can gauge this from any particular document of even based on amount of experience.

IMO the demands of a trackday instructor are very different than that of an experience or even a Race School instructor. In both of these you are usually working in a car that you KNOW, you know the level of prep it has had. You know the track quite well and how it works in that environment with other gift days going on alongside it. You know that the other cars on track have an INSTRUCTOR sat next to the driver who hopefully is very observant and in control of his customer. What you don't know is anything about your customer and what they might do on track and believe me there is a huge variation. Of course they are rarely familiar with the car, the track or track driving skills and most will not be driving at a particularly rapid pace (not as the average trackday driver anyway).

The trackday driver knows his car well, he is obviously a track driving enthusiast and if he's been on a few trackdays he will in all likelyhood have gotten to the stage where he is driving as fast as he can. The instructor doesn't know the car, the level of prep, he knows that pretty much every other car on track does not have an instructor in it and has a similarly "quick as he can" driver.Also, your "customer" is not in a supercar that he is driving for the first time and which probably has much more performance and grip than he realises. He is not going to be content with brake here, turn here, clip there and exit over there. He wants you to get him to drive quicker than he is already. He has likely fell into the "brake as late as possible" trap and that unless the tyres are squealing all the way through the corner he is not going fast enough.

There was a move, about 3 years ago, to introduced an "ATDO accreditation" to a ARDS Instructor license. What this entailed was that a trackday company who you had worked for (think there was a pre-requisite number of days) and who were happy with the work you were doing signed some form you sent off with your annual ARDS Instructor license application. Many of us did this but nothing ever became of it. You needed to be a Grade B ARDS as well which meant you had done a year or two of work for your sponsoring school and they were happy with you and felt you capable of the requirements of a B Grade instructor. This did not entail carrying out group briefings although all instructors should be capable of providing a basic in-car brief. Only Grade A is a sign that you are able to and have given group briefings and that you have done a year or so of Grade B type work.

The ATDO accreditation was a good idea. Of course there needed to be some way of an instructor who had not yet worked for a trackday company to "get in the loop" but i'm sure something could have been sorted out, like a recommendation from place of work or other (ATDO approved) instructor. Even then however it was more to do with who was available rather than much else.

There have been ideas and moves from instructors (who are equally as frustrated by these issues) to have a sort of grading system for actually instructing ability (understanding of and skills in teaching performance driving and very high level of observational and interpersonal skill). This was coupled with an organisation specifically to look after the interests of instructors and provide more transparent information on issues such as insurance cover etc.

I'm not sure anything will come of this but I think we just have to understand that there are varying degrees of skill levels that instructors have, a good trackday instructor wouldn't necessarily be a good experience day instructor and vice-versa. An MSV instructor may be very good but with an ARDS Grade B or above instructor at least you know they've passed an ARDS race test, raced at least 5 times, passed a "Racing School" assessment and successfully worked in a race school environment, probably for a couple of years. I would say that you could be assured of them having a good level of observation skills, some degree of interpersonal skills in dealing with track drivers. A good amount of experience in what sorts of things you are likely to be presented with on track. The fact that most will have worked for/at a number of different operators and venues and have had the commitment and passion to have raced, gone through the licensing procedures, often paid for instructor training and assessment and pay each year for the ARDS license I think adds more creditability although again I'm sure there are some very professional, highly committed non-ARDS instructors out there.

All of the above is very much a generalisation about instructors, track drivers and operators and I'm sure there are many exceptions and I hope my comments are taken in the spirit that they are intended (i.e. informational and personal viewpoint). Also, apologies if it's a little disjointed I have had to do it pretty much piecemeal as, like many instructors, I have a business to run also.

M.

PS. posted against this post in the Racers forum as it seems to be getting the replies more than the Trackday forum.

M, nice comprehensive information.

Some super points here that need digesting.

Thanks to all Instructors who have sent info so far, keep em coming! We will respond to all in due course.

Thanks for the information. I've been working as a winter driving instructor for my employer both in the classroom and from the passenger seat. I also have extensive experience working with corporate groups and have some racing and rally experience. I've received a lot of kudos for my teaching and instructing and I feel I've reached a level now where I'm ready to be a full time year round instructor and have started looking for jobs. Teaching driving skills is something I love doing.

Any further tips or tricks for someone new to the industry is appreciated.

Here in the USA most instructors seem to be getting $250-$400 a day when you are new, with the most experienced people commanding over $1000 a day. How does that equate with the UK for pay?

It seems a lot of racers aren't good teachers and companies are always looking for instructors with good teaching skills and people skills? Am I right or is it tough to get a job?

What do employers of instructors really look for on a CV?

Also are there any good educational experiences one should have to further their ability as instructors? I'm going to continue to further my own racing ambitions as much as possible.

"What do employers of instructors really look for on a CV?"


In the first instance a recognised qualification acceptable to a given insurance company.

The problem as has been comprehensively covered is that Instructors may have qualifications but only have limited abilities or experience. Here is where we have problems with new (to us) Instructors.

Recommendations help, but on occasion this also can fail as Instructors look after eachother (rare, but does happen) and perhaps havent themselves enough feedback from another Instructors work. We have also had great results from recomendations.

Given that Instructors generally have specific qualities/experience/ability, the only way forward is by experience. This can be costly (it may take several events to find out if an Instructor has the abilities you are looking for) and even costlier if he believes he is qualified for certain tasks which he clearly isnt.

There is a requirement in general for diferent Instructors of varying abilities/qualifications. Assesment is probably the best way to determine if an Instructor meets a specific need.

Instructors who can give a competetant major briefing are actually relatively rare, but basic level guy's are also quite necessary for basic instruction. So a complete cross section is needed. sadly it seems the employers carry the financial burden sifting the ranks

Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, it is one of the things that sets a briefing instructor apart from someone who is excellent at instructing in the car. I would say this - I do not see how it requires an ARDS-A to be a briefing instructor, over and above the requirement for in-car instructing. We all know people who are darned good at standing up in front of a menacing crowd and doing a good safety/instruction brief, yet are not the best in-car, and consequently, there are people who are dynamite in-car, but fall to bits in front of the "class".

I agree that Assesment is the best way to determine (a) instructor's training requirements, and (b) promotion / upgrading. However, what happens if the chief instructor "doesn't like you much"?

Here in the USA most instructors seem to be getting $250-$400 a day when you are new, with the most experienced people commanding over $1000 a day. How does that equate with the UK for pay?

Well, put it this way, I'm off to the travel agent tomorrow to book my flight :)
Seriously though UK rates are way lower than that, right at the bottom of your "new" scale even for experienced people on gift/corporate type days. There is little difference actually between rates for fairly new instructors and vastly experienced ones. You tend to get the "better" jobs as a more experienced instructor and the as the rates are generally linked to the job you do you the income is (very) slightly higher.

M.

Oh yes, the pay....

Which is one of the reasons why these days I concentrate on my "proper paying" job rather than instructing. In fact, since 2003, I haven't done a day, but I'd like to do some again as I miss it (the job of instructing, not the wages!)

I used to enjoy doing the "Supercars" at Silverstone, even if it was millions of laps of the National Circuit day in day out.

ABS training was another favourite on corporate days. Just a shame that the artic disappeared, having a HGV1 had it's merits. It was enjoyable teaching people to reverse something a little bigger than a Mondeo!!!

I do not see how it requires an ARDS-A to be a briefing instructor, over and above the requirement for in-car instructing.

Rob,

It's the other way around, or at least according to the ARDS intructor licensing guidelines (which we used to get but not recently and can't find my old copy, so this is from memory).

As I recall, in order to qualify for an upgrade to A you needed to have done at least a couple of years as a B Grade and have the ability to perform or have performed briefings. As you say, the briefings side of it is not that relevant unless an employer has that requirement. What an A Grade does demonstrate is that you have "served your time" at B Grade to the satisfaction of your sponsoring school and they feel you are worthy of an A Grade.

I'm pretty sure there are some Grade A instructors that have never done a "group" briefing such as a trackday company might require but could, if required, get by.

As I read it, When Tim mentioned "but cant brief a driver!!" I took that to mean an individual driver in-car. Even a Grade C instructor with a few days under his belt should be able to do a fairly comprehensive in-car brief. Many school operate experiences where the major part of the brief is in-car with the instructor (not flags etc. but basic techniqes (line, braking etc.)).

M.

"As I read it, When Tim mentioned "but cant brief a driver!!" I took that to mean an individual driver in-car. Even a Grade C instructor with a few days under his belt should be able to do a fairly comprehensive in-car brief. Many school operate experiences where the major part of the brief is in-car with the instructor (not flags etc. but basic techniqes (line, braking etc.))."

To clarify;

This is no disrespect to a Instructor who can instruct but struggle to brief or de-breif. As I mentioned there is the need for guy's at all levels. There are some who are happy and suited to perhaps working with an experience company but may in fact find themselves sat next to a more experienced seasoned driver on a trackday!

I personally beleive the grade system is a good benchmark, but as we have covered, some circuits/organisers/experience companies dont need/recognise. So we have 'Instrctors' who may in fact have no qualifications but can be suited to certain situations.

For the record, we use Instructors with necessary qualifications.

Hope this helps

The comment about sitting in a car with an experienced seasoned driver reminds me of a time when I instructed in "Supercars" at Silverstone, and the guy who was my pupil was a former Swedish Rallycross Champion who had also done racing, but was touring Europe having a go at every major circuit.

After showing him the way around the circuit once, I was able to relax and enjoy the ride. He was excellent, and listened to my advice, and it was like a sunday afternoon ride once he got used to right hand drive, and he sighting points had to be 3-4ft further to the right....(he would be that much away from the apex on a right hander, or over the white line on the left, etc..!!)

I used to enjoy the odd challenge too - wayward billy, who knows everything there is to know, like you can take Vale flat in 4th in an Elise.

Enough remembering the past....

Rob.

Well, put it this way, I'm off to the travel agent tomorrow to book my flight :)
Seriously though UK rates are way lower than that, right at the bottom of your "new" scale even for experienced people on gift/corporate type days. There is little difference actually between rates for fairly new instructors and vastly experienced ones. You tend to get the "better" jobs as a more experienced instructor and the as the rates are generally linked to the job you do you the income is (very) slightly higher.

M.

Wow. I get $300-$500 a day to teach winter driving skills for the road. I don't have any formal qualification for that, just heaps of experience and the ability to teach it. I also drawn on my various racing experiences and apply certain lessons from that to what I teach.

I have the ability to teach in a classroom, but also do just as well instructing from the passenger seat. I think most people are strong in one area or another, I'm lucky in that I can do both quite well. That dates back to when I was 15-16 years old in the cadet corps were I was required to give briefings in a classroom, but also had to coach rifle shooting skills one on one. I'm sure I wasn't perfect to begin with, but learned each skill requires a different approach.

Also, I think it is very important whether teaching in the classroom or sitting in the scary seat, that one understands that some learn by hearing, some by seeing, some by touch or feeling and one has to be observant of your students and adapt to that.

I change my style also depending on whether people are over confident or under confident and whether they are men or women. With women I always say "well, how did you feel about that?" and then go from there.

I change my style also depending on whether people are over confident or under confident and whether they are men or women. With women I always say "well, how did you feel about that?" and then go from there.

I find women are the best pupils. Women listen.

Like has been said, most male Billy's can't be told anything. They've been driving for years and are above petty things such as how to brake in a straight line and even, hold a steering wheel correctly.

Women just listen and do exactly as you've said. They don't have the "better idea". And it's very satisfying when you teach them, because when they are driving very well, you know your doing something right.

What circuits do you work at in the States for that sort of money??????

Definetly agree ladies/girls/women listen whereas men are hard work

If during a drivers briefing you asked the guys to raise thier hands if they thought they were competent drivers with talent almost all are likely to raise a hand. If you however asked if those who 'we not very good' to raise hands..... Nah, its not going to happen is it?

In my experience female's REALLY want to learn. One of my daughters has been driving in excess of 100 mph since she was 13 and constantly wants to improve so she wouldnt be a 'typical' girl driver.

On the point of instructing accross the pond, the comments about not needing a qualification, especially if they are being paid, is a worry. One of the reasons we choose 'qualified' instructors is, if anything went wrong and we had a legal case arise due to an on track accident etc, a legal team and indeed the Insurers would want to know what qualifications the instructor had to assess whether blame would lie with someone 'at fault' possibly due to lack of qualifications.

Agree 110% about women drivers, they almost always says "I'm quite nervous so I won't be going very fast" and by end they are usually going as fast as any of the guys. Big generalisation of course as we generally see 6 guys for every 1 girl so they tend to stick out more .... uhum, perhaps I should rephrase that, you notice them more .. uhum, well you know what I mean :)

I also found it odd that, in such a litigous country as the USA they are not more obsessive about certification etc. However, I worked for Skip Barber School there many years ago now (mid 90s) and I don't think there was any equivalent of ARDS (didn't come in in the UK until 95 as I recall). I'm not even sure what the situation is in the US now as regards Race School instructor licensing. I imagine that, unlike the UK, a US instructor would not regularly work for 3-4-5 or more different race schools and probably 3-4-5 more manufacturers and event organisations. So they would no doubt be assessed by their employer and based on this would be deemed to be proficient (for insurance issues).

I know quite a few specialist (non ARDS) instructors who do things like Skid Control (proper, not gift) and various types of driver training (private race coaching, defensive driving, performance car driving etc. etc.) all extremely proficient guys but as they have no need to find work with an ARDS organisation, they have no need to pay the £85 a year for the license but also, you need an ARDS affiliated Race School to actual put in for your license and renew it each year (you can't do it as an individual).

M.

There is another benefit towards being ARDS recognised as well.

Personal satisfaction. You know you've set a standard to be accredited by. You have your badge on when you get in the car and that badge basically says "I am an accredited Instructor to do this".

It must help with the Billy's as when they see the badge, they see that you have achieved a level rather than just doing it. I know, I know. There are lots of very good Instructors that aren't ARDS accredited, but I'm not making comparisons.

Another advantage is you open up more opportunities for work. Those without their ARDS, can only work at non-ARDS schools etc. Those with it, can work at all.

If it opens up the opportunity to "x" amounts of pounds a year, is it not worth the £85 at the start of the year.

.

On the point of instructing accross the pond, the comments about not needing a qualification, especially if they are being paid, is a worry. One of the reasons we choose 'qualified' instructors is, if anything went wrong and we had a legal case arise due to an on track accident etc, a legal team and indeed the Insurers would want to know what qualifications the instructor had to assess whether blame would lie with someone 'at fault' possibly due to lack of qualifications.

For the very specialized skill I teach(winter driving), I wouldn't even know how to get formally "certified" or "qualified" for that particular skill, other than just having the experience and safety record I have. Neither would my employer. Keep in mind, I'm not instructing on a race track or teaching racing, but winter and defensive driving for the street.

In the USA there is nothing like the ARDS and probably never will be because so many schools are so different and each school I suspect hires someone who fits their requirements and needs. However, as I am interested in eventually teaching at race or high performance driving schools, sure I'd like a piece of paper saying I was 'formally qualified' but where in the USA would you get such a thing and would it even matter to potential employers?

In regards to the liability issue in the USA, nowadays you pretty much have to sign your life away anytime you do anything remotely dangerous, thereby nullifying the liability for the most part.

I'm insured, the pupils are insured, the vehicles are insured and if an issue did arise, everything is covered.

Has anyone done any consumer ride and drive events and what are your experiences?

Not sure what you mean by that.. perhaps it's what we call trackdays - where joe public take their own car, pay a fee, and run on the track in a non-competitive footing.

If so, they are quite well run over here these days. You have the odd idiot who shouldn't hold a road driving licence, let alone be allowed on track, and some people who have the talent, but not the inclination to go racing properly.

Rob.