Lola T70 Mk3 coupe

I am looking for information on the following cars ,i allready have a chassis no thread for these car see the chassis thread.

SL73/116 Listed as being shipped to Japan 25/5/1967 who to ?

SL73/119 Listed as sold to the USA 5/7/1967 possibly driven by Peter Revson?

A lot of the early cars are listed as being for John Mecom in the USA was he an importer of Lola cars to the US?

Any further bits of info would be most valuable.


:brm:


Pete

I have a photo of the LOLA T70 MK3/116 at the PARIS AUCTION

at porte de versailles the 10.10.1998.

I don't know of it was sold.

I shall have a glance yo the catalog of the auction to find some information.

I have also a photo of the SL73/119 at MONTHLERY in 1998.

this car belongs to day at CRAIG JONES.

I found the sales catalog.

it is said :the car presenred was finished in spring 1967.

send to JAPAN the 26 of MAY with a classic V8 CHEVY.

after a succesfull racing life in JAPAN the car was bought by BILL HALL

at SHEFFIELD and completly restore.

it cost 120.000english pound on three years from 1992 to 1994.

nothing more about the history.

I think there was at least three or four LOLA T 70 3 in JAPAN

in the 60-70 ths.

some were engaged by the TAKI RACING TEAM.

Im afraid the info is all rather dubious on this car 116 is still in japan never left the country
how do i know?
well i have all the cars photos and the plate the owner has had the car 20 years and he bought it from the man who ha dit for 10-15 years who bought it from Taki team
the other Taki car was converted to Spyder format with different bodywork

When Bill Hall acquired the T70 he asked Starkey to trace the History and this is what he came up with !!

There is also a fake 116 car in usa bar painted in the wrong colours
The Japanese Taki team had 2 cars and 1 car wa swith another
2-3 cars came into Japan to do some races and left again
with out my notes to hand i cnat tell the facts but i have a book of the racing and i had listed all the cars and drivers from 67-70 and with the aid of a japanese man who took many fotos in that period :cool:

The car in the auction has wrong plate on it draw yr own conclusions !!!!!

The advertiser says the car is in Tustin CA but he seller is in Japan.

http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classiccars.php

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3248/116lolamk31avu5.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=116lolamk31avu5.jpg)

For sale here:-

http://www.guikasgtc.fr/cadre.asp

wrong car that is 111 not the other car

Now THAT is interesting website. Thanks for the link...

wrong car that is 111 not the other car

???.You've lost me there 'drifty'. Just scroll down the page. There is a MkIII (111) and also a IIIb, which I have mentioned on the IIIb thread in the chassis archive.

For sale here:-

http://www.guikasgtc.fr/cadre.asp


If only I had lots of money - I would be in Racing Car heaven!!!

Some Lola T 70 Spyder and Coupe sold in Bonhams/Goodwood auction last month. Not exoensive

no plates or history or needed maximum restoration thats why they were "cheap"

This is my Lola T70 SL73/116, I purchased it through John Starkey in 2005 from Abba Kogan. The car came to me from the UK and previously resided in Japan. The Lola came w/ full documentation and FIA paperwork, car also has the original Lola chassis plate. www.kellysolympian.com/images/lola2.jpg

Many thanks for your post Jeff, at least we now where 116 is today.
I do a lot of family geneology and trying to find the where abouts of cars is far more difficult, than tracing people.:)


Regards
Pete

Jeff i do not believe your car is real 116 car that is still in Japan never ever left teh country i have done a lot of research into the T70 cars that raced in Japan
Taki racing had 2 new cars 1 is 116 coupe other was made into open top car with modified M8 Mclaren style body

do you have any paperwork to show car came form japan
i know 116 in japan still has its original import papers

What is your opinion of the 116 car listed in the ad as posted, and currently said to be in CA?

Thanks,
Jeff

The advert gives minimal information so it would be very hard to draw any conclusion. I would be most interested in a summary of the documentation that came with the car.

Does the documentation give a list of previous owners which would establish the provenance of the car? Provenance is pretty straightforward to check and confirm and is a much better guide than FIA papers or a chassis plate. Probably half the racing cars I've seen this season wear replacement chassis plates but most are on original blanks so it's hard to tell the difference until you learn to recognise the tell-tale indicators. FIA papers, at least until the new Heritage Certificate, do not establish a car's identity as it's possible for two cars to be registered with the same 'identity' in two different countries. The burden of proof for these papers simply wasn't high enough.

Allen
OldRacingCars.com (http://www.oldracingcars.com)

i have fotos of the 116 car in japan and been trying to by the car
its been thier since day 1 had 3 owners taki and 1 in between the curent owner i was dealing with
the car is not In ca its still in japan
however i have tried to contact the current advertiser and had no response i am now asking my 2 local 2 people to contact them
jeff im afraid i am suspect of yr cars ID i dont want to say too much here but i am in close contact with 1 of the previous owners and i did ask recently how he came to have the car etc and i was not "dazzled"
my money and im not a gambling man is on the japanese car being true

It really is a great shame that along with the old FIA papers there was not a print out of a lie detector test.

Welcome Jeremy.

The usual problem with the old papers was the sin of omission. So a 1972 car might say in the owners section:

1972 Bloggs [read out of Autocourse]
1973 Smith [read out of F1 Register]
1994 Jones [first known owner of the car being registered]
2001 Arthur Proud-Owner

Giving the impression that Jones bought it direct from Smith when in fact there's a 20-year gap and huge uncertainty. These papers were allowed to go through unchallenged far too often.

My attitude to the old FIA papers if that - as documentation of a car's history - they are often right but equally often wrong. I would certainly never accept them as objective evidence. Authentication is a more complex process than reading FIA papers and looking at a chassis plate.

It is a great shame that so many buyers of cars over the years were presuaded that the presence of an HVIF indicated that the cars were correct- though that is what Appendix K demanded.
With the HTP without a chassis number, though this is not to everyone's taste, at least the incentive to deceive is gone and the bonus that came to a sucessful fraudulent application is now out of the way..
As the correspondence about the Lola's flags up its rather hard to greet a new owner with the words '' Welcome to the owners club ''of a particular chassis number.
Seriously though there is a major caveat, one all the HVIF run out at the end of 2006 and two the history paragraph does not necessarliy reflect reality.

You are absolutely right about the incentive to deceive going away with the new Historic Technical Passport. Presumably that was the thinking behind its introduction and I agree with that thinking. The problem that seems to be emerging is that many owners still seem to believe that the HTP validates a car in some way and are grumbling that "all the fakes are getting papers".

The Heritage Certificate is the only document that authenticates a car but the cost of that, and the lack of any requirement for one, means that few are being applied for. I hope that changes.

Education, education education I suppose. I really can't see this thing about cost. Explain it to me ;the cars cost- even at the least least 25,000 pounds and another 3000 a year to run plus hotels etc etc, so why is there this thing about spending 1500 Euros on an HC. Maybe if it were 10,000 euros it would put the thing in perspective.
I suppose there is some resistance from those who had HVIF issued by authorititave ASN in the first place but the bad ones were so bad that they did discredit the system.
As you say no one has to have one.

You are absolutely right about the incentive to deceive going away with the new Historic Technical Passport. Presumably that was the thinking behind its introduction and I agree with that thinking. The problem that seems to be emerging is that many owners still seem to believe that the HTP validates a car in some way and are grumbling that "all the fakes are getting papers".

The Heritage Certificate is the only document that authenticates a car but the cost of that, and the lack of any requirement for one, means that few are being applied for. I hope that changes.

Presumably the new HTP is also a way of avoiding potential legal action against the issuer.

The old papers never claimed to authenticate a car's history - the wording on the front page included a disclaimer about their accuracy.

Problems only occurred when people started to associate 'FIA papers' with authentication/originality despite the two issues being unconnected.

They have now removed any possibility of people assuming the papers authenticate a car's 'history', which seems quite sensible given that a continuous history does not mean a car is to original specification, and that they aren't necessarily the best people to verify a cars history.

As for the cost of an HC, the value of a car or its running costs should have no influence on the cost of any item (doing so is quite possibly illegal), on the same basis why doesn't a Ferrari GTO owner pay far more for his tyres (or any other similar component) than someone who uses the same item on a less valuable car.

Before parting with 1500 euros I would want to be sure of the competence of the people responsible, especially when the amount is non-refundable etc. Before submitting such an application it would be fair to at least inform the owner who the experts are who will be verifying his story.

Of course if they do all the research themselves then such an amount is probably a fair reflection of the amount of work involved (far less than Ferrari charge), but if they still require the owner to provide all the research and information, and merely verify that, then it would seem to be rather excessive.

Of course if they do all the research themselves then such an amount is probably a fair reflection of the amount of work involved (far less than Ferrari charge), but if they still require the owner to provide all the research and information, and merely verify that, then it would seem to be rather excessive.

Well said
1500 euros for some poncy pen pusher to agree with all the research you have done ( sorry jeremy no offence to you but you know what i mean! )

We had this sort of garbage with labour government and that arrogant oscar winning actress charging as transport minister truck owners £300 road tax up from £500 or whatever it was
so people took the trucks to france registered them theire fitted 1000 mile range tanks and never spent a penny on UK soil yet where a british company

so no wonder no one has paid the 1500 euros for a certificate
These days it takes 1 day a few phone calls a posting here to verify cars history-its a small world today
Pick a few cars and i can have the info for you in say 48 hrs of who did what when and why and can even start to disprove certain cars as fakes or 1 of 2 or 3 with same plate # etc

What should happen is the fee is the same for any HTP fia papers & the fia inspectors armed with the info the car owner is giving them sit and do theor own research confirming the cars staus asa genuine article or a replica and then the car is give some certificate to say its the read Mccoy or a ticket to say its a copy car
If the car is not built to the regs the inspector makes his notes of what is wrong and your given 3 months to rectify the problem ie DFV engine in a ferrari or brembo brake son a Drum braked F Junior car

Also papers should be able to be withdrawn as soon as a dispute rears its head and then the problem can be dealt with swiftly by panle of 3 judges from FIA
perhaps a stage further any fake con cars be crushed that will stop the Bull sh@@#rs

Would you guys like me to split the last few posts off into a separate thread?

Would you guys like me to split the last few posts off into a separate thread?

Haven't we already discussed the new FIA forms before anyway?
Sorry for sidetracking this thread.
Peter

Peter, yes, I think you are right, although there appear to be new perspectives on here (perhaps, I should merge them with the old thread!).

No problem with 'sidetracking' in this case, Peter, since it was an inevitable and logical consequence of exploring the authenticity of Jeff's acquisition.

I am looking for information on the following cars ,i allready have a chassis no thread for these car see the chassis thread.

SL73/116 Listed as being shipped to Japan 25/5/1967 who to ?

SL73/119 Listed as sold to the USA 5/7/1967 possibly driven by Peter Revson?

A lot of the early cars are listed as being for John Mecom in the USA was he an importer of Lola cars to the US?

Any further bits of info would be most valuable.


:brm:


Pete

Hi Pete,

Do you have any info on SL71/41? I am looking into purchasing it. It doesnt have any known history.
Steve

Hi Steve,

Unfortunately i dont have any history for this car SL71/41 only what you probably allready know that is was sent from the factory to John Mecom 22/8/66, and was entered at Laguna Seca no 43 but DNS.

In all probabilty it has stayed in the States as very few SL71's went to Europe, Surtees,Epstein,Renwick,Maglioli,Sid Taylor, Red Rose Racing ETC.

If i get any information i will pass it on.


Pete

This is my Lola T70 SL73/116, I purchased it through John Starkey in 2005 from Abba Kogan. The car came to me from the UK and previously resided in Japan. The Lola came w/ full documentation and FIA paperwork, car also has the original Lola chassis plate. www.kellysolympian.com/images/lola2.jpg
It is two years ago when this was posted, yet I think this period is too short to fully convert a T70 into a Lotus 30. At least that is now shown when I click the link;)