Best National & Club Racer

I know that there was a thread concerning the 'all time greatest' in the F1 Forum recently, being fairly new here I wondered have we had a similar discussion on purely British National series and Club racing?

If not, why not start nominating and lets get some action going. Give them mods something to get their teeth into.

I bet few would disagree with the inclusion of Gerry Marshall (or would they?)

I'll put up Jim Russell, John Cleland and Dave Baldwin.
Any advances.....?

Gavin Wills, Simon Davey.

I'll put up Jim Russell, John Cleland and Dave Baldwin.
Any advances.....?
I've never heard of the first and last names but would you consider John Cleland a club racer?

Me :-)

I wouldn't include Cleland, although he got his reputation in club/national series, he obviously is more well known for his 2-litre Touring Car exploits.

I'd put forward Gerry, Whizzo, Tony Trimmer, Peter Baldwin, Tony Lanfranchi, Fluxie, John Brindley.

Or how about Martin Stretton, Mike Schryver,(ok has raced historics on wider stage) and people like that?

There'd be some decent names for such an accolade i'd say.

Gerry Marshall for me is probably at the top. Others that spring to mind who seem to be able to drive the wheels off anything and anywhere are Willie Green, Barrie Williams, Mike Wilds (even though he did a few GP's), Syd Fox - remember The Old Nail, Bob Berridge, Frank Gardner (Club?). Currently Nelson Rowe seems to be putting his Historic FF1600 in places it has no right to be in!

Chris Summers, Jim Moore, Robin Darlington, Alan Rollinson, Tony Dean, Andy Barton, Kim Mather, Alo Lawler ...

Tony Lanfranchi?

1) Gerry Marshall

2) John Cleland (thundersaloon era)

3) Martin Stretton

Some of you may be interested in browsing this old thread; I think it was my first ever thread, and the emphasis was on drivers of historic racing cars but there is plenty of overlap and some names will be very familiar!

http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35597

I've never heard of the first and last names but would you consider John Cleland a club racer?
never heard of Jim Russell? He started probably the most famous racing school after he finished racing... obviously not as good a brand name as I thought!!

I think Gerry Marshall, Flux and Tony Lanfranchi (and possibly Sytner) have to be up there - Stretton and Hadfield have both failed in modern cars so I dont think that they can be included in the same level, Whizzo is another contender.
The trouble is that back in the 50's and 60's the F1 drivers also did tin tops etc.. so its difficult to differentiate the two, otherwise you would include Duncan Hamilton etc..

Win Percy. Ahead of any of the above IMHO.

For thoughly nice blokes I would say John Cleland, I shared dinner with him once when he gave away our prizes in the ModProds end of season bash, he would'nt take a penny and considered it an honour, proper geezer. Mind you Patrick Watts did the honours the following year so I will have to include him as well! Gerry was very good but could be a bit of a bully on the track I always thought (sorry fans) bit like Shuey.

I think Gerry Marshall, Flux and Tony Lanfranchi (and possibly Sytner) have to be up there - Stretton and Hadfield have both failed in modern cars so I dont think that they can be included in the same level, Whizzo is another contender.

That's an interesting one actually simon.

You say Stretts failed in modern cars but he had a crack in average GT2 Porsches a rubbish Lotus GT1 in '97 or '98 so I don't think we got a proper indication of the guy's ability then. He even told me once that the prep of the Lotus was how should we say...dubious, to say the least, and he stopped driving it for fear of hurting himself or others!

It's like Peter Hardman, another amazing pedaller of historics (they both have to be 2 of the top 5 guys in that level at present), who was a quick man in single seaters until he hit money problems.

Hardman was up agaisnt an amazingly strong Formula Ford 1600/2000 and F3 generation that included the likes of Morris Sala, Mo Gugelmin, 'Wal', Martin Donnelly, Julian Bailey, Victor Rosso, Dave Coyne, Gerrit Van Kouwen, Anthony Reid & Tim Davies etc... and he was on a par with them.

I am led to believe that whilst Stretton is very quick he is very hard on cars and for that reason I wonder if he would have been able to be competitive over a season - others have flitted more successfully from historics to modern so I dont think he is up there.

Hardman is a different story - a good friend and occassional co driver of mine who has infinitely more talent and knowledge than me in these matters has co driven with Peter Hardman on several occassions and not only rates him highly but says he is a thoroughly nice guy to boot.

Going down the historics route is a tricky one as a hot shoe will look better than perhaps he is given so much of his competition are, like me, gentlemen drivers of capped ability!

However to single some out Schryver, Ollie Bryant, Bill Wykeham, Diffeys, James Shead (had to include him!) and even some posters on this forum from up north!!

An interesting selection, alright, but when someone says they have never heard of Jim Russell!!! Well, I ask you!!!

A lot of names are fairly recent or current drivers and I was tending to think more 'historically' (no pun intended) I was not thinking purely in terms of drivers of historic cars either, but names that have graced the national/club scene over a long period.
In some ways you could include Stirling (sorry Sir) Moss as he raced at all levels in the UK and still does. (I only say this to butter up JT)

As an aside to Simon D, my wifes maiden name was Drabble, we may be related. Shock. Horror.

And who the blazes is Dave Baldwin? Thanks chunterer, I just could not think of his first name when I launched the thread. Peter of course. (bauble loses 5 points)

anybody at the Bentley Drivers next Saturday?

A lot of names are fairly recent or current drivers and I was tending to think more 'historically' (no pun intended) I was not thinking purely in terms of drivers of historic cars either, but names that have graced the national/club scene over a long period.I agree.

Chris Summers, Jim Moore, Robin Darlington, Alan Rollinson, Tony Dean, Andy Barton, Kim Mather, Alo Lawler ...

That's why I chose drivers who had excelled at club level but never competed at the very highest levels of motor racing.

Allen

I think Rick Morris deserves an honourable mention....

John Fyda, european clubmans champion, scottish clubmans champion, he did get as far as British C2 championship and Thundersports but didn't excell in either of those. Fairly handy in our old Mallock Mk3 and his Lotus 22 in historic formula junior throughout europe. Worth a mention I think!

Will Hoy? Got as far as Le Mans and BTCC, he used to dice with John in the clubmans in the 80s.

Can somebody do a 'vote for' voting thing where you can vote ...

Not really, John, at this stage. We've already had about 40 names, which is way too big. I think we are trying to cover a very substantial amount of ground here - 40+ years worth of Club and National racing will throw up big numbers! That's about as long as I've been attending motor racing meetings and there are one or two names that even I've never heard of, although Jim Russell is not one of them! If we could break it down into classifications or specific periods, maybe we could try a poll or polls!

Tony Sugden, Jon Fletcher, Vernon Davies, Johnny Blades, Alex Clacher, Ken Bailey .... oh, so many.

I wouldn't be inclined to include Tony Trimmer - super guy, great driver, but he did a bit of F1, didn't he?

Trimmer did lots of F1 but never actually qualified for a GP in his six attempts so he's not counted as a F1 driver in the various "bibles". He mainly drove in Shellsport G8 and Aurora.

Johnny Blades was quick. Good addition.

Any way we could wean our 40 down to ten for a vote?

Allen

I saw my first motor race in 1951 on the Isle of Man and my latest one on Sunday at Silverstone, so if I do not recognise a name included here - well no way would I concur with their selection and there are a lot I don't recall hearing.
Call me arrogant, and many do, but I was thinking of much loved household names, of which quite a few have been nominated so far. I think that gfm has a good idea and perhaps, John we should try and set some parameters for different categories. Otherwise I can see blood being spilt - probably mine.

Best National Driver; just flirting with International?

Best Club Racer; Purely club events.

Most Prolific Driver; Appearances and Variety of races?

Best Historic Driver; Mainly Vintage/Historic cars.

Who the Heck is Al Weyman? Or is that Nowayman?

(No offence Al - only kidding.)

How about best 1960s (and earlier); best 1970s; best 1980s, best 1990s and best post 2000? Top 2 qualify for the overall poll? Or am I complicating the hell out of a simple question?

tony sugden for me , hes won more than 660 races in a career spanning six decades

Or am I complicating the hell out of a simple question?

No, it is a complicated question to start with, given the different perceptions and opinions and the period we are trying to cover and we now have about 50 names and rising. I'm not at all sure we are going to achieve anything too definitive here, but if you can agree the classifications and then proceed through an elimination process, just maybe we can have a poll at the end of it. In the meantime, I reckon I've got a couple of months to twiddle my thumbs, waiting! :laugh:

How about Nick Whiting,(special saloons), Bob Jarvis (modsports Davrian), Mick Hill- (V8 Capri & 5 litre Chev. Beetle) John Homewood (Sunbeam Imp) who had or still has the most wins at Brands Hatch, and who could forget Peter Day in his amazing 2 cylinder BDA powered Fiat 500 (The "Mighty Mouse")- whatever happened to that amazing little car?

Cheers, Siggy.

and who could forget Peter Day in his amazing 2 cylinder BDA powered Fiat 500 (The "Mighty Mouse")- whatever happened to that amazing little car?

Cheers, Siggy.
Fiat 500 with a 2 litre BDA - probably running in the HRSR HSCC series!!!!
sounds awesome!

Fiat 500 with a 2 litre BDA - probably running in the HRSR HSCC series!!!!
sounds awesome!

It was half a BDA!

It was in a mini to begin with, which he destroyed at Silverstone. The Fiat was very fast, noisy and a bit of a handful!

An interesting thread (and some interesting names and justifications!).

I'd agree with names already suggested: Gerry Marshall, Barry Williams, Will Hoy and Ian Flux.
In addition I'd also suggest Alastair Lyall (very talented and would always drive the wheels off everything he ever drove, and won the first race at the re-opened Donington park) and Mike Newman who always gave 100% effort, and raced just for fun.

What do you have to say about that?

(Yes, I admit there's a bit of a Saloon Car bias to my choices!)

Just out of interest Jim Russell was also Emerson Fittipaldi's manager from FF at the JRRDS to F1 with Lotus. Ralph Firman was his F3 mechanic.
For me it's a hard choice between Fluxie, Whizzo, Ian Taylor, Gerry Marshall, Tony Lanfranchi, Jim Walsh, Dave Brodie or Pete Baldwin. I guess Gerry has to top the lot really...just for his antics in the bar?

How about Geoff Friswell and Crighton Brown from Clubmans, Cedric Bell from special saloons, Jim Walsh and john Oxborough from FF1600, Chris Meek from
special saloons and production sports cars. The list goes on.

I'm sorry I asked now!

Ian Taylor was a bad ommission and of course in a way connected to Jim Russell in so much as he has a race school still carrying his name.
I think Gerry has to be the ultimate Clubbie Hero as Andrew says for the fact that he was larger than life as well as successful

Judging by the nominations so far, it has to be:

1. Gerry Marshall
2. Tony Lanfranchi
3= about 20 others

How about excluding ANYONE who has, or still is, been paid to race or driven works cars.

My vote: A man who has financed his racing for around 30 years himself. Was superlative in an Austin Healey 3000, stunning in a 23B and is able to completely run rings arund the competition on the streets of Monaco in a Merlyn Formula Junior.....Denis Welch.

How about excluding ANYONE who has, or still is, been paid to race or driven works cars.

My vote: A man who has financed his racing for around 30 years himself. Was superlative in an Austin Healey 3000, stunning in a 23B and is able to completely run rings arund the competition on the streets of Monaco in a Merlyn Formula Junior.....Denis Welch.

Not detracting from his ability but as someone whose business is prepping Austin Healeys should be quick in them! I would imagine that after his clients have paid to get their cars to the meeting his cars go for free (nothing wrong in that I would do the same) and is able to test a lot more than a normal "gentlemen driver". So in short it goes back to what I said earlier hot drivers in historics against gentlemen drivers is not the same as a hot driver in a current series. But if one is going down that path Simon Hadfield or David Piper are probably even more impressive....

How about excluding ANYONE who has, or still is, been paid to race or driven works cars.


A very grey area and virtually impossible for us here to establish who has or has not been paid to race a car. Therefore best we keep it to drivers who have made an impression in club racing to be worthy of our list yet never made it to F1. Otherwise all of my recommendations (except maybe Jim Walsh) are deemed as pros! An example, say you have your Brabham F3 car in the mid 60s. I can image the conversation 'let's give the car a run out in the libre race at the weekend and get 'so and so' to drive it, find out what's wrong with it. I'll give him a tenner for his trouble' Paid to race?

Likewise Denis has his garage business. Presumably he draws a salary and presumably some of his time in business hours is spent fettling, testing, qualifying or even racing one of his cars? Is he paid to race - by his company? It could get messy.

I'm at work,am I being paid to add to this thread? Well no but where do we draw the line?

Surprised to see no-one has mentioned Albert Betts or John Gott yet, surely two of the club racing 'greats' from the sixties?


.....and harking back to current historic drivers, Justin Law has certainly made his mark. It would be interesting to see him in a modern.

Good choices John. Interesting that Justin Law has been seen at the Revival in Albert's old famous Jaguar UXF 363 that his father now owns. John Gott (was chief constable of Northants IIRC) had some great races in his Healey 3000 with John Chatham's similar car DD300. Reminded now of modsports club drivers, how about Brian Hough, Jon Fletcher, John 'plastic' Pearson.
However due to the huge variety of cars raced by Gerry, Tony, Whizzo ( also known as the 'squeaker') and Fluxie ( Colin Blower too?) they must be at the top end.

Comment Tally vous, or something like that to John Elwin. Welcome John,see you at Goodwood?

Bob B aka Bauble

Yes Bob, you certainly will see me at Goodwood - it's almost my local circuit! All I have to do is find somewhere to stay........

Andrew, I'd certainly agree that Whizzo in particular belongs at the top of the tree given the length of his career & the fact that he is still winning.

I too grew up at Snetterton & have memories of Albert Betts driving the Jaguar to the circuit & then racing it, his young son acting as pit crew. Even in the sixties most saloons were trailered to the track, so for me he rather epitomised the spirit of club racing.

I remember my Dad saying that Albert would go around all the other competitors from his area at scrutineering to pre-arrange a lift home should he shunt UXF 363 at the meeting! I think Roger Taylor (with the Dagenham Motors Anglia then Escort) and Terry Croker lived his way. He did badly shunt it one day, clipped the Russell bank and had a huge 'end-over-ender' down the pit straight, however it was straightened out to race again. I recall beautiful paintwork on that MkII, metalflake two-tone green.

Am I right in thinking that UXF gained the metalflake paint job in the course of the rebuild following that accident? I don't think I have any early pics to prove me right or wrong.

I remember Roger Taylor too; I think his was the first racing Escort I ever saw. I didn't go any further than Snet in those days so had to wait for things to come to me!

Am I right in thinking that UXF gained the metalflake paint job in the course of the rebuild following that accident? I don't think I have any early pics to prove me right or wrong.

I remember Roger Taylor too; I think his was the first racing Escort I ever saw. I didn't go any further than Snet in those days so had to wait for things to come to me!

Roger's Dagenham Motors Escort was the first one I saw too in early '68 I think, before the Broadspeed and Mann Gp5 cars. Perhaps his father being a director of Ford UK had something to do with it! Not sure on the Jag paintjob, but the way it is now in dull grey-green how Albert had it in the early to mid 60s. Of course in the late 60s it grew wider boots and arches. I saw it again in the car park at Brands in around '79/80. I looked horrendous - massive wide tyres and arches, over the top, really lowered but still in two tone metalflake.. Glad Don Law rescued it and put her back to life.

I've never heard of the first and last names but would you consider John Cleland a club racer?

Never heard of Jim Russell??!! If it wasn't for him and his racing school we would have never heard of the likes of Emerson Fittipaldi. He also won the
500cc championship three times and a great sports car driver who was on the verge of F1 before an accident curtailed his career.

Steve B

Likewise Denis has his garage business. Presumably he draws a salary Is he paid to race - by his company? It could get messy.?Why would it get messy? He's making a living that pays for his racing.


I'm at work,am I being paid to add to this thread?Of course your not :rolleyes: but do you pay for your own racing out of the money you earn? Presuming you race.

Hmmm, Gerry Marshall and Frank Sytner. One who must think he's on the local 'figure of eight' banger track each weekend and the other who was prone to using bully boy tactics occasionally.

My vote for Club Racer would ultimately go to the bloke who preps his car when he can, usually late into the night before the race. Loads up wife and kids in a dog-eared Ford Transit campervan and travels 200 miles for a ten lap race that has cost him approx 160 pounds to enter; if he's racing at Brands on the short circuit he'll get about ten minutes racing for his money.
The trailer has seen better days and has plenty of miles under its belt. His race car, also his pride and joy, ain't gonna win no concours but every weekend it is pressed into service. They go without the usual family holiday abroad each year, prefering to head to Spa for a few days and take an extra day on the way home to keep the kids happy.
Once back at home the race car is put in the shed and won't be looked at until the night before the next race meeting. He'll be back at work on the Monday morning earning the money to go racing.

My vote for Club Racer won't go to the fella who turns up at the circuit just in time for signing on after getting changed in his behemoth of a motor home that someone else drove to the circuit. His car has been scrutineered and sits in the pit garage ready to go as ten guys have worked on it non-stop for the past week since the last meeting. He doesn't know how much the entry fee is someone else does all that. He's stopping at the Michelin Star rated hotel that's closest to the circuit that also has the necessary facilities to keep his missus happy, spa pool, beauty salon etc. He doesn't go without the usual family holiday, prefering to travel straight to their place in Provence; they think the locals are lovely and friendly but in reality the locals despise them.

Stereotyping?? Maybe :stirrer:

.... but do you pay for your own racing out of the money you earn? Presuming you race.

SD, Andrew paints racers for a living ....... rather well, as it happens. ;) I don't think it allows him time to race!

Take a look!:-

http://www.andrewkitson.com/pages/main.html

Creighton Brown has been mentioned here as a worthy candidate.
Sadly he has passed away from cancer. This dreadful disease has again taken away a great racer and a super bloke. Great memories of his clubmans battles against his friend and rival Will Hoy who we know also succumbed to the disease and their awesome F1 engined Tiga Hart turbo in Thundersports that they shared in the mid 80s.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=29028

That's sad news Andrew. He had some great races in Clubmans, which at the time was probably at it's peak. I didn't realise Camborough Pigs was his own company - it was an odd company to sponsor a racing car!

Slippery Diff, I have my cars prepped because I do not have enough skill to do it myself and I dont want to compromise my safety. That hardly makes me a chequebook racer as I trailer my car to the track and help in any way I can. I think your stereotypes are cliched to the point of having no value.

I consider myself a clubbie, however I dont consider myself eligible for the rollcall of the great and good!!!

Slippery Diff, I have my cars prepped because I do not have enough skill to do it myself and I dont want to compromise my safety. That hardly makes me a chequebook racer as I trailer my car to the track and help in any way I can. I think your stereotypes are cliched to the point of having no value.

I consider myself a clubbie, however I dont consider myself eligible for the rollcall of the great and good!!!
Can someone please tell me where to find the 'tongue in cheek' smiley?

Simon, I was in the same situation. I could do basic jobs at the circuit, change pads, fix small problems, replace broken items etc, I've even helped pull apart gearboxes and engines in the paddock. I still had my car prepped professionally though but still consider myself a typical clubbie racer. I've spent my fair share of nights in a tent at the circuit. I've slept in my car occasionally. Once or twice though I had my car shipped to an event simply because I was offered a cheapy.
Those stereotypes may be cliched, but they exist and are at race meetings all over Europe every weekend. The clubbie racer who scrapes together a bit of spare cash to allow him to race a few times each year, far outnumbers the cheque book racers. Some series organisers would do well to remember this.....

Creighton Brown has been mentioned here as a worthy candidate.
Sadly he has passed away from cancer. This dreadful disease has again taken away a great racer and a super bloke. Great memories of his clubmans battles against his friend and rival Will Hoy who we know also succumbed to the disease and their awesome F1 engined Tiga Hart turbo in Thundersports that they shared in the mid 80s.
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=29028
Andrew, would you happen to know Mike Keeling?

SD, no I don't, why do you ask?

SD, no I don't, why do you ask?
He's a motorsport artist. Did a painting for me.

On the basis of whats being said above, Jon Fletcher is someone you might consider for this title.

This thread appears to have run it's course, so having started it I suppose I should try and finish it.

I would not dare to presune to pick a 'winner', however, it seems that Gerry Marshall would not offend too many people. (?)

When you consider how he died, well it reminds me of the comedian Tommy Cooper who died on stage during his act. A fitting way to go for two very different but consumate performers.

Thank you for all of your contributions and reminding us of just how many names have added lustre to our sport at every level.

Kind regards,

Bob.

For me being a relative newbie I would include Simon Hadield in this, have seen him driving any number of different cars and he always seems quick!

Also somsone like Stu Kestenbaum and who is that guy that everyone gets into their car to set it up! Dives in Gt's, think he drove the Stealth?

Others for me would be Vergers, Whizzo and guys liek David Leslie, basically people who can get into anything and be quick!!

My vote for Club Racer would ultimately go to the bloke who preps his car when he can, usually late into the night before the race. Loads up wife and kids in a dog-eared Ford Transit campervan and travels 200 miles for a ten lap race that has cost him approx 160 pounds to enter; if he's racing at Brands on the short circuit he'll get about ten minutes racing for his money.
The trailer has seen better days and has plenty of miles under its belt. His race car, also his pride and joy, ain't gonna win no concours but every weekend it is pressed into service. They go without the usual family holiday abroad each year, prefering to head to Spa for a few days and take an extra day on the way home to keep the kids happy.
Once back at home the race car is put in the shed and won't be looked at until the night before the next race meeting. He'll be back at work on the Monday morning earning the money to go racing.


Bill Cox then?

Bill Cox then?

A true club racer. I think his old Capri was built from scrap yard bits!

A true club racer. I think his old Capri was built from scrap yard bits!

...or his old WRC Chevrolet (what a beast!)

Brian Hough Tvr Tuscan Modsports driver killed 1973 at Thruxton, has anybody any stories or pictures.

I'd like to second Simon Davey here.

Incidentally, can anybody help me get back in touch ith him?
I seem to have misplaced contact details.

I had a number of races with Gerry, and it was always great to watch him from behind (where I usually was). Hardman (like Dron in some ways) makes his cars dance on tip-toes through the bends and makes you realise that you can go faster than you are, Gary Pearson has great on-the-limit consistency in whatever he is driving which you wish you could emulate, Whizzo is quick in the dry but simply awesome in the wet. Never raced with Stretton, but drives with great commitment.

But I suspect that a lot of historic drivers really rue the day that Win Percy found himself unable to drive.

Having competed with a lot of the NAMES on this post; Bill Cox, Alex Clacher, Terry McNally, Les Nash, Peter (my main antagonist over the years) Baldwin, Nick Birch, Ray Payne ( fed up yet?:laugh: ) I could go on like this for months.
Brain Tarrant, Norman Lackford, Bill Shepherd, and my hero of course ROGER WILLIAMSON, et al. But my vote has to go to a friend sadly missed, a man who had he been built like twiggy, would have most definately been in F1.
GERRY MARSHALL.
Gerry.

Don't forget 'Ginger' Marshal - Reliant Kitten - Balders

Having competed with a lot of the NAMES on this post; Bill Cox, Alex Clacher, Terry McNally, Les Nash, Peter (my main antagonist over the years) Baldwin, Nick Birch, Ray Payne ( fed up yet?:laugh: ) I could go on like this for months.
Brain Tarrant, Norman Lackford, Bill Shepherd, and my hero of course ROGER WILLIAMSON, et al. But my vote has to go to a friend sadly missed, a man who had he been built like twiggy, would have most definately been in F1.
GERRY MARSHALL.
Gerry.
Are you gonna make this years Donington meeting Gerry if i can arrange a pass!

here's an odd nomination

Peter Collis (Slick 50/MG & i think TVR's now)

after seeing him at Mallory Park racing his MGB flat out,including doing the Devils Elbow on three wheels as a mark of respect to a competitor who was killed the day before

db