March 782

It had to happen I guess, a thread on this classic.

Over on TNF someone posted re the above, wanting info on nos. built, Japanese cars, subsequent histories etc. Allen Brown suggested 10/10ths may be a more suitable home for the subject. I agree, bearing in mind our recent items on various Chevron/Brabham/Ralt/Lola and so on.

From memory I can't recall how many were made in 78, was it 22 ? I wonder whether any followed after, I realise the 79B was very similar, later Atlantics too.

Is it possible to build up a list of them I wonder ??

I believe 29 were built, though whether or not that includes Keiji Matsumoto’s Datsun-powered 782P I don’t know. On top of that were 19 near-identical 782Bs, at least one of which raced in Asia with a Datsun engine, though most went to the US for F/Atlantic. Not to mention 11 Formula 3/FSV versions (783)
I used to keep detailed records of every single-seater chassis number I could find, but it got to be almost a fulltime job and I had backed off before the 782 was invented. Can’t therefore help much with chassis numbers, apart from:
No.1 was the first (really), which Giacomelli drove at Donington late in 1977
No.9 was apparently raced by John Mortensen in the US in 1978
No.14 F2 1978, raced by Eje Elgh in Atlantic spec in NZ 1979
No.15 Bill Brack in Canadian Atlantic 1978
No.16 one of the 1978 works cars, raced by Teo Fabi in New Zealand Atlantic series 1979

March 782s are a bit of a mare because very few numbers are given in period in journals. Most that are are given in 79 or 80 and you can just about trace back to 78. Apart from that one is forced to rely on F1R who may well be at their most unreliable at this point!
There is also the 782/78B issue as Dave points out. This is more clear cut in the US than Japan where several 782s were probably converted into Atlantic/Pacific formula as time went by.
Of Dave's list I think 9 and 15 are 78Bs rather than 782s.

Here's my list with sources

782-1 Debuts with Giacomelli at 1977 Donington F2. Either this car or chassis 5 to David Franklin for hillclimbing, 1979

2: Toleman Group: Rad Dougall [F1R]; 1979: Paul Smith for UK Atlantic [ex Dougall and number given by AS] Retained to 1981

3 Not known

4: Not known

5: Patrick Neve, possibly the Bob Salisbury car - see below

6: Alan Docking for Alex Ribiero. 1979 Phil Dowsett [AS & MN 'ex Ribiero'. 1982: Dave Hoban [noted by Jeremy Jackson]

7: Works: Giacomelli 1978 car, this or 1 to Franklin, the other probably to Japan

8: Works: Surer

9: Works: Winkelhock

10: Salisbury: Bernard de Dryvre

11: Pierre Maublanc

12: Toleman: Rad Dougall Retained 1979 for Dougall and Tiff Needell

13: Project 4: Ingo Hoffmann

14: Project 4: Eddie Cheever. 1979: Works: Eje Elgh in NZ then returned to UK and sold to Charlie Kirkby for UK Atlantic

15: Not known

16: F1R says Maublanc. Dave McKinney has in NZ for Teo Fabi then sold to Ken Smith to at least 1982. Dave's report says this car was used by Zunino in 78 and I believe him, not F1R

17: Euroracing: Piercarlo Ghinzani

18: Astra: Piero Necchi. 1979: San Remo for Ariel Bakst, replacing car damaged at Thruxton, Pascuale Barberio at Misano

19: San Remo: Alberto Colombo. Retained to 1981

20: Benelli: Roberto Marazzi. 1979 San Remo: Badly damaged by Bakst at Thruxton, perhaps resurrected for Pedersoli in 1980

21: Not known

22: Not known

23: Brian Henton. Retained 1979 and run as rent a car for Hayje at Zandvoort and Ribiero at Donington

24: Gerd Bichteler. 1979: Klaus Waltz; 1980: Walter Raus for Jo Gartner

25: Not known

26: Stephen South; 1979: Adrian Russell

PM: 'Prototype modified?' Jack Kallay for Geoff Lees

In 1978 not known

Lehmann: Peter Scharmann/Helmut Bross [April]
Salisbury: James King/Gianfranco Brancatelli [April]
Gerard Pillon [perhaps a Maublanc car] [June]
Vicic [Japan]: Mark Surer [July] and probably Warwick [November]
Racing Team Combat: Hisayoshi Mitsuhashi [July]
Lista: Marcus Hotz [Sept. probably 2h, maybe the Scharmann car]
Fumiyasu Satoh [Sept, prob 2h]
Vicic: Giacomelli [Nov] 1979 Le Mans Co: Gabbiani, JAP GP 'a 782 used last season by Giacomelli'
Speed Star [Japan] Didier Pironi [Nov, prob 2h]

Chris

ISTR that the Easter 78 Autosport had a full list of F2 chassis at Thruxton that year. Think MAWP did the report, he was always a real anorak for tub nos. I don't have that issue, maybe someone else on here does ?? I think the 78Bs were numbered in different order to the 782s, that was the usual March way I believe, rather than being numbered all in 1 series.

Purely from memory, didn't Tolemans have 2 in 79, after they'd sold -2 to Paul Smith? Perhaps one was the Henton car -23. Did Lees have a Kallay car in 78/79, doesn't ring a bell with me unless it was in Macao/Far East/Japan.

I'm sure theres much more detail to come here!!

Dan

Lees used the 782 towards the end of the season mainly in the Aurora series. I vaguely remember him taking pole with it at Mallory in front of all the F1 cars [or was that South?]. Think he did a couple of Euro rounds with it

Did AS put the numbers in for Thruxton? Damn, missed that issue

Chris

Chris, I'm pretty sure the car Lees had from mid-78 was a B42, not a 782. Did well in a couple of Euro races, scoring points I think. At Thruxton that year, in Aurora not F2, he put the B42 on pole, was leading until quite close to the end as I recall, until he stopped.

At the previous Thrux Aurora he was in a 781, the car that Allison later had with RAM, and the one rumoured to be entering the Belgian GP with de Dryver that year, but didn't.

I think South did put his 782 on pole at the Brands August Aurora that year, before he sold it to Adrian Russell. Whatever happened to Russell I wonder, he was a consistent, if not quick, Libre/Aurora racer from end-77 to end 79, then just disappeared.

Slightly O/T, my mate Kim put his B35D on the front row at Mallory that year in the May Aurora race.

March 782 numbers from Autosport 30/3/78:
1 - T-car (Hoffman and Cheever)
2 - Dougall
5 - Neve
6 - Ribeiro
7 - Giacomelli
8 - Surer
9 - Winkelhock
10 - de Dryver
11 - Maublanc
13 - Hoffmann
14 - Cheever
15 - Zunino
16 - Jarier
17 - Ghinzani
18 - Necchi
19 - Colombo
20 - Marazzi
23 - Henton

Lees was indeed in a B42 at Thruxton in the September 78 Aurora round, but he qualified 5th. He did, however, lead into the first corner, and contnued to lead until he tripped over Dennis Leech's March, and finished 5th

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
14: Project 4: Eddie Cheever. 1979: Works: Eje Elgh in NZ then returned to UK and sold to Charlie Kirkby for UK Atlantic
Small point - Elgh's car in NZ wasn't a works entry. It was tended by Dick Bennetts of Project 4, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't a P4 entry either. My relevant programmes are buried somewhere and I've lent my other primary source out...

Originally posted by David McKinney
I've lent my other primary source out... Formula? Should I be looking?

One's familiarity with Geoff Lees's brief aquaintance with 782-PM probably depends on where you were at the Donington F2 meet and if you attended practice.

If you blinked you missed it. This was his only outing with the car [Chevron B42 elsewhere] and he ended up in the gravel at Redgate with assorted others on lap 1 of the first heat. Those further round the circuit were deprived of his company.

Chris

Originally posted by allenbrown
Formula? Should I be looking?
No, New Zealand publications

David
Elgh's car was run by Dick Bennetts. It would have been January 1979, and I have a feeling Dick was actually forming West Surrey Racing or had already run a F3 season under his own banner at that time.

David
I assume this is the car you are referring to. March 782-14-BDD

Teretonga, I think Dick B formed West Surrey Racing in early 81, in 79 and 80 he ran Project 4s F3 team, winning the UK series both years, with Serra and Stefan Jo. WSR came the next year, with Jonathan Palmer. So in early 79 he was still a Dennis employee, hence I assume the use of the ex-Cheever Project 4 782.

If this came back to UK after for Charlie Kirby, i wonder where it went after. Perhaps its one of the 'mystery' 782/79Bs in Britain over the next few years, eg Andy Barton, Roger Orgee, Tony Westwood, Malcolm Hull, Martin Mansell, Duncan Bain, Stewart Phillips, David Newall, etc.

Dick Bennetts' team in the 1979 NZ International series was called Dick Bennetts Racing with Malboro.

This is what David wrote in his Bay Park report.

...the Dick Bennetts/Malboro 782 March of Eje Elgh, which also has some sponsorship from Cotter Ford of Albany. This is 782-14, the car used in F2 last year by Eddie Cheever, and it has a Swindon motor in place of the BMW. Entrant Dick Bennetts was of course in New Zealand last year and the year before with Fred Opert's Chevron team, and this year is assisted by Kevin Stone, brother of Jim and Ross.

Gents, there's a good list of 782s over on TNF, posted by, I think, a chap who had strong March connexions. Seems pretty comprehensive.

Anyone know where the ex-South/Russell car, no 26, went after Russell. Someone in Scotland seems to ring a bell ???

Was it Jim Stevenson who bought the car from Russell ? The old brain's ticking over !! He later got a Mclaren M29, I presume the one Arnold Glass had in the 82 British F1 series.

Jim Stevenson drove an RT4-185 in 1984 before his M29, but can't remember him having a 782.

Your brain/memory may be better than mine though!

Jeremy/Chris, researching some old stuff for John Humphries, I've been looking at old Mallory progs. A few more odd Marches have revealed themselves.

First Roger Orgee has a '782' in early 1980. Is this an update of his previous, ex-Friswell I think, 742/772P/77B?
Tony Westwood has one, called a 78B at times, John Bowtell's is apparently a 77B, Martin Mansell's a 782. Duncan Bain has a '782' and Stuart Phillips one called, in 1982, a 'March 80/81, though I've seen it called a 782 before. In 1983 I see David Newall in a 'Staggers Jeans' 78B Atlantic.

Finally, and I'd completely forgotten this one, a chap called Bob Simpson at Mallory in late 1982 has a 'March 77/782 Hart 2000'.

Any recollections/ideas on these ???

I seem to recall Stewart(?) Philips in an 80A, or am I confusing him with someone else?

I saw Newall's car in 83, but not close enought o be able to give it an identity.

I think that the Phillips car was the ex Nick Adams/Carlos Ulibarri car 80A-18, but haven't got round to checking 1982 Atlantic reports yet.

Dan, I'm interested in your attribution of the Friswell '742' as the basis for Orgee's variously updated car. What's the evidence. I have Orgee in a 722 in the 1979 series and Libre races but did he buy something marginally newer!!

Incidentally the Friswell 742 [I take it you mean the car he uses in 1976 G8 races] is actually two cars. He starts with his 73B retitled. Bends that and sells it to Andy Barton, and replaces it with what seems to have been March 732-1, raced early in 1976 by John Calvert.
[When Calvert races it the car is described as the one driven by Beltoise at 1973 Mallory F2, where he famously showered the timekeepers with bits of exploding BMW; Friswell is said to get it from Calvert in MN] Friswell had a big accident in it under my nose at Oulton at the end of 76 and I don't know where it goes from there.

Chris

Chris, on the Adams/Uliburri 80A for Phillips, it could well be the one, especially as one of our Irish friends thinks its over there now. Can't remember which thread this is on, but its pretty recent.

On the Friswell/Orgee car,thats from dim and distant I'm afraid, so no hard evidence. My memory tends to be quite reliable for these 'vital' matters though !! Orgee certainly had it from early 79, quite well turned out too,

I saw it at the Steele Dixon Trophy race, Silverstone April 79. Described as a 772 (which it certainly is NOT) Cosworth 2000cc. He also used it in FAt that year, so maybe he alternated between engines, don't think he was out in Aurora F2 though that year, or ever. He had a March the next year, called a 782/79B, the next year, which I always assumed was the same car updated.

From your notes, if it was ex-Friswell, I suspect the 1st one, ie ex-Barton. As I recall by mid 78, Andy B had the 'real' 77B, ex-Scheckter, so Orgee maybe bought the older car from Andy. Pure supposition here of course !

Friswell had a big accident in it under my nose at Oulton at the end of 76

Was that his accident at Water Tower?

Chaps, I've just borrowed a fabulous collection of Autosports from January-March 1979. Haven't studied them all yet, but on the 782 front, they confirm that the ex-Bruno car, -7, did got to Franklin for climbing. Also that Andy Barton had got a very badly damaged 782, for little money, that he was in the process of doing up. I presume this is the one he used from mid-79 thru to 81.

More info to follow as and when I get my head stuck intyo these !!

Further to above, I've seen that Douglas & Gavin had got 2 782s in early 79, reportedly for Godfrey Crompton to use on the hills, and that they're ex-Salisbury cars, so presumably nos 5 & 10. Also reports that the Barton car was a rebuild of the one Hoffman crashed in the Temporada late in 78, no 13? Finally the one Fabi had in NZ in Jan/Feb 79 was the one that Jones used in Macau late 78. Did we say earlier that this might have been the Zunino one, which would fit given his works connexions in 78, and those of Fabi later. So could this be no 15, or perhaps 16.

In 1983 and 1984 Ecce Homo hillclimb races started Georg Neugebauer with 782-22. Picture from 1983 you can find in photo-archive at www.eccehomo.cz

Michal

Still on my Donny April 11 thoughts, Andrew Peach was entered in a 782 in the Derek Bell. I spoke to a member of his crew briefly about the car, which is nicely turned out, partly in Toleman livery like Dougall's. He told me its NOT an ex-Toleman car, apparently they got it with full history unknown, but think it belonged to a hillclimber over here at some point. They're in the process of getting the a genuine plate to put on it, but are NOT trying to pretend its something that it isn't, if this is clear !!

Hillclimb Val Des Terres (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/c156080_1.html)

I have uploaded some Hillclimb pictures now, there seems to be a couple of 782's a 791 there.
Any pointers on the unnamed ones will be useful
Thanks:beer:

Nordic, some great pictures there, very much memory joggers! The one in picture 2, the blue one, doesn't ring any bells with me, but certainly looks like a 78 car from the high cockpit surrounds.

I think the Franklin car was ex-works/Bruno from 78, that he got in early 79. The Cheltenham Cameras car is Alan Richards' ex-Franklin car, I think an ex-Zunino 772 that DF won the Hillclimb and Sprint champ in 78.

The Cramer one is, IIRC, one of the Douglas & Gavin cars I mentioned earlier, reputedly ex Bob Salisbury from 78. Finally the Lane car I'm not sure about. As I recall it was described in period as a '79S' whatever that means. I wonder whether it was built on a 782 tub, or maybe 79B, it certainly looked like that from pictures, rather than a 792 modified. Any ideas Chris/Jeremy/David/Allen ???

Btw is that a Chevron pictured next to the blue 782 (picture 2)? If so who's ??

Nordic,

Great photos yet again!

"Hill03" is Malcolm Dungworth's Pilbeam MP22 (chassis 03 I think).

Agree with Dan on the Marches, although I've nothing further on the origins of Roy Lane's car.

I think the blue March ("Hill02) is Godfrey Crompton's "79B", or at least the logos match the ones on his car from a photos I have in 1979. The Minolta car with the Dulon would be Alan Richards'"77B"

Just for interest, I apparently have chassis No'9 in my workshop and apparently it is David Franklins old car?

Originally posted by Nordic
Hillclimb Val Des Terres (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/c156080_1.html)

I have uploaded some Hillclimb pictures now, there seems to be a couple of 782's a 791 there.
Any pointers on the unnamed ones will be useful
Thanks:beer:

The blue Minolta March 782 was the Cheltenham Cameras car of Alan Richards.

Alan can be found at Shelsley's Bottom Ess supplying his superb bacon baguettes on race days. Commercial ended, (thats a freebie you owe me Alan.)

There was a March test day at Shelsley in the 70s with Derek Bell driving Godfreys Cromptons car. This was the subject of an MAC picture quiz 2 years ago. Godfrey did write in with all the deatils of chassis and history. Will dig it out.

Nice pics by the way, Nordic.

Further to the last post I have dug out MAC News No 105 in reply to the previous editions picture quiz.

Godfrey Cromptons March 782/792B was driven at Shelsley by Derek Bell in May 1980 for an article in Cars and Car Conversions by Russell Bulgin. Derek recorded a time of 32.08 secs after diagnosing a problem that had beset Godfrey for sometime.
He also drove the Pilbeam MP22 of Alister Douglas-Osborn recording a time of 27.75secs.

1981 (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/c164077.html)

I have names for some of these, any help gratfully recived. I am most curious about the sports car (chevron BMW?) I know it wasn't 80 or 81, I suspect it was 78.
any takers?:)

Nordic, again some intriguing photos !

The Chevron will come to me in time, I bet Jeremy knows straightaway (!) did Richard Thwaites have a B19 on the hills at one point, with a 3litre BMW ?? Whether this is it I don't know. The Lane cars are interesting, I think the one Ken Ayres has here is the ex-Roy March 79S, the one Lane himself has is, I think, Pilbeam DFL, is it the ex-Neve circuit racer updated ?

The le Tissier car I'm not sure about, a Chevron rings bells, can't be certain though. Also the Green and white Castle Block March is a new one on me, it says 'Ford V6' on the nose, maybe the ex-Cramer 76A ?? Also the Franklin Wendy Wools 782 looks a little odd, no side-pods. Had he removed them by then, the car looks pretty naked without them !

Dan,

I can't think who was using this Chevron circa 1980, it is the 3-litre BMW engined car, that Tony Bancroft (aka Spotty Smith) using around 72-73. Thwaites raced this car in Historics 82-83 as well as something else, a B16 I think, but it's not him at the wheel here.

le Tissier's car was one of your favourites I think! I seem to recall he ran the B30. (I hope! Don't want to get too red-faced here - don't think it's the B32, although that was on the islands at some point)

Terry Smith & Alan Payne both ran "761s! around this time, and Paul Edwards ran the 76A in 1980, Nigel Bigwood in 81.

Thanks for your help, i have tracked down the programs for the hillclimb 78-81, and all the info you have given is correct and the updated info has been added to the pictures.
The Chevron BMW sports car was driven by D Garnett. He crashed it in 78 in Jersey so the picture must have been 79. It was replaced in 80 by the Pilbeam MP43 sports car seen in the 80 gallery. I am pretty sure the Ford V6 Powered March was driven by J Jack.
The Lane car in 81 acoroding to the program is a March 802-812
looking at the programs there sure was a mix of cars there between 79-81

Nordic, yes now you mention it, IIRC Roy L did have an 802/812 after his '79S'. Any knowledge of this one Jeremy ?

The Jack March I'm still not sure about, did he really trail to the Islands from Scotland, if so a very dedicated chap he must have been ! If it is him, then by the shape of it I'd suggest the ex-Norman D 772-3, tho' I definitely don't recall this being fitted with a V6. Also I think most of his cars were painted in 'Jack Crane Hire' decals, not Castle Block Ltd. My money would still be on one of the '761s' Jeremy mentioned above, any history on those ones too Jeremy ?

Finally I think you're correct, as usual (!) on the Noel le T B30, ex-Purley, and you're right one of my faves!!! Didn't Evan Clements have a go in this after Purley at one point, Mike Wilds too as I recall, then transformed into Mick Hills M1 later still.

Jack was a dedicated chap!, his time in 81 was 34.58, looks like he only did one run though.
If the castle Block car was not his, the other options are a March 74B driven by A Sauvarin as the listed engine size was 1998 I discounted him or R Le Page in a 76/80B but his listed engine size is only 1598.
A Ford V6 has a cc of 3000? unless its not in the program or its not a called a march.

Lane had 802-26 after the 79S.

The B30 transformed into Jeff Wilson's M1, not Hill's - That was based around the ex-Durex T400 (HU8).

Not sure on the "761s", my (attempted!) quotes were because I were unsure exact what type they were, 761s or not. At least one of them was Repco-engined, IIRC

Just seen some more A/Sports from 79, apparently Tony Westwood was out in one of the Douglas & Gavin, ex-Salisbury, 782s in a Hillclimb early that year. I guess this was the one he used in Atlantic in 1980.

the list has chassis 7 as Bruno "Jack o Malleys" car then sold to david franklin
franklin had chassis 9 (winklehock car) the car was also owned by bill morris
the car currently has DF name on the body work
if anyone knows of another car that DF had please advise

BMW museum also has "782" in museum not usre if its real 782 or 783 converted i did see this in 95 in german race shop under a sheet and was told it was jack o malleys car destined for BMW Munich museum
toleman cars
these 2 are in UK
1 is not being used
the other is with Mr Peach imported back from usa nd being restored with the view to being raced
the car mr peach is currently using is a converted f3 car used on the hills as F2 BDG spec car for many a year by chris drewitt
ive also been told of 1 782 in SA the respondant told me its a henton car he did quote a # but ive to look back thru my old emails for it

Originally posted by driftwood
.... ive also been told of 1 782 in SA the respondant told me its a henton car he did quote a # but ive to look back thru my old emails for it

Look at this thread : http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?threadid=67701&perpage=40&display=&pagenumber=2

post 45, there is Ian Scheckter´s 782 in one of SA museums.

Michal

driftwood:
I thought Billy Morris's car was ex-Cramer (later Jimmy Jack)? Unless he had more than one
The BMW factory museum has 782-22 (not one of the original team cars). Perhaps they have more than one
There are three Toleman 782s mentioned in this thread...

wouldnt like to say u thought wrong but i know the car came from morris and it has DF name on the bodywork so if u have an inkling that bill had more than 1 782 let me know more!
i will also ask bill the direct question this week
re toleman782 cars
i have had it said there where possibly 3 toleman cars but i checked my Duncan R & Sheldon book and toleman had 2 cars listed at the races but 1 car was with a different # to the others at 1 race i recall
i will check again

I have 2, 12 and 23 as Toleman numbers (and I think that info came from this thread - have you checked?)

I have no knowledge of the Morris car other than the fact that is was reported at the time as I've relayed

not looked at my book yet i know the keeper of rad dougal 782
known history from dat 1
the other car peach has in from usa i have the # in an e mail i also spoke to peach re the car then the ZA guy said thete is 1 henton car in s africa again an email i have has the # quoted
i await commenst bfrom bill m re any 782 cars he or franklin had etc

782# was quoted as in ZA
12 is peach car
23 should be the other toleman team car a buddy is the "keeper" of
i will check this point

Driftwood, interesting stuff on 782s. Car -23 was I think NOT an original Toleman one, but the Henton 78 car. When Henton went with Toleman in 79 with the RT2, I assumed he brought -23 with him as a 'dowry' ! By early 79, the real Toleman car -2, was with Paul Smith, so they used -12 and -23 while getting the RT2s up to speed. This is how I thought things were anyway, feel free to correct me.

On the Peach car, the one he raced in DBT at Donington April 11, is NOT a Toleman car, a chap I spoke to confirmed this, despite the livery. You infer he has another one too, I presum this second one is ex-Toleman.

I wonder, could we do an updated list of cars as we now think they may be, including the various 79 onwards UK hillclimbers ??

"On the Peach car, the one he raced in DBT at Donington April 11, is NOT a Toleman car, a chap I spoke to confirmed this, despite the livery. You infer he has another one too, I presum this second one is ex-Toleman. "


i am hesitant is passing to much info on peach cars as i have been privvy to some info on his cars and it is perhaps not fair on these guys and better for them to officially provide the info should they read the forum
however i make some commnents to assist in queries

I have corresponance from the guy u spoke to and i have verbally discussed with mr peach his cars
its not a big secret but i feel its his place to say more of what he has !
im sure in time the cars will be on the track

henton was in 78 driving the #23 car as henton racing
and in 79 used the car for some races ar toleman team entry as well as rt2
#2 was used by rad in 78 1st half of season as i mentioned before and perhaps yr right paul was using this chassi in 79
i will ask him now

See the Cicale thread for news of an ex-Toleman 782 going Can-Am in 1980.

Allen

Allen, I saw this, and immediately thought of the car DW mentions that Andrew Peach has, ie one AP imported from US, thats reportedly ex-Toleman, so presumably either -12, or the ex Henton -23.

Dan

Somewhere - and I hope I can find this in my notes - I saw an advert for a Marguey saying it had been rebuilt with a "new" March 80A tub. If this is the same Marguey, it implies the original tub was written off.

Any idea how different the 782 and 80A would have been?

What do we know about the Peach car? I'm afraid I haven't followed this thread in too much detail.

Allen

tubs are different -i think 78 is wider 80 car is GE car!

DW knows more about the Peach cars. From earlier on this thread, he has 2 apparently, one a proper ExToleman 782, and imported back from US, the other from the hills over here, and based on an F3 tub IIRC.

DW was/is, quite rightly, a little reluctant to go into too much detail, feeling some of the info may be private.

Over to you DW !

Chris/Allen/Bryan/Dan/David and others,
Back from a 6 month sabbatical,thought this would be a good thread to get back into the swing of things.
Spoke to Mr Tilanus at length last night.He personally purchased and packaged two March 782's from Paul Smith in the Autumn of 1981.One was a complete car,the other a freshly repaired tub by Gomm with enough parts to complete except a gearbox.This tub had and still has the original chassis plate 782-2.The car,painted in Ian Schekter colours although he never drove it,is complete and in a local museum.
A guy by the name of Evan Boddy bought 782-23 from unknown seller in the UK in 82/83.Apparantly Brundle test drove it before cash changed hands and it was shipped to SA.It was never used here in F.Atlantic,and lost its gearbox to a sports car project.Tilanus now owns it,and it has its original plate attached.
Hope this is of interest
Ian

i was told all this months ago by BT it has cast a shaodw over 2 cars with same plate no
hence why i never mentioned it
Peach car is correct car
car in museum is a replica of sheckter car for display purposes

Kevin,
Lets be clear,the car in the museum is not a replica,it is a March 782 that has a fully known racing history from the time of its arrival in SA.The fact that the bodywork has been painted in Lexington colours is mainly irrelevant.As for the chassis plate it carries,i will inspect it with Bernard and then offer an opinion as to whether it is an original,re-issued copy or fake.
Ian

Ian, I presume 782-2, the one you say is now in Lexington colours, is the ex Paul Smith car. He got it from Tolemans late in 78, and used in UK Atlantic pretty sucessfully in 79, then half way thru' 1980. He then put a Hart in it, and used it in some F2 races that year, plus a few Auroras. Very smart car at the time, in BMTR dark green.

Are you saying 782-23 was also bought from Paul S? I can't think why Brundle drove this (if he did). By late 82 he was well into F3, and the 782 would not have been worth testing surely if he was looking at going F2 in 1983. In the end he stayed in F3 of course. Did he have any connecton with Paul S/BMTR ?? Its a new one one me this rumour.

Dan,
No,782-23 did not come from Paul S.I do not know at this stage who sold it to Evan Boddy,but either the seller or Evan knew Brundle and he drove it simply to confirm that it was in working order.Sorry,i did not mean "test" as in racing parlance.
Ian

782-12 (Or at least, the ex rad Dougall Thruxton winner, which I hope is the same thing!), previously used by Les Edmunds until 1989) was used on the hills here by Phil Price, from about 1997 onwards. It ran with a finned nose cone a la Pilbeam MP something-or-other.

OK, let me see if I can put the pieces together f the Toleman March 782s? Please correct me if I get something wrong.

782-2 - Toleman 1978 - Paul Smith late 1978 (Atlantics then F2) - Tilanus autumn 1981. Retained 2004.

782-12 - Toleman/Dougal 1978, Toleman 1979 ... Les Edmunds c1989 ... Phil Price c1997 ...

782-23 - Henton 1978 - Toleman 1979 ... Evan Boddy (ZA) 1982/83 ...

782-?? ... Toleman 1979 - Dick Guider 1980 (Can-Am up to 1984) ...

Anyone know the history of the Les Edmunds car prior to 1989 or how to fit Peach's car into this?

Allen

Allen,

Les Edmunds ownership appears to go back to at least '84, as I have 3 sprint results for him in a 782 that year

Not a 100% sure about this but I think the Peach 782 is a pukka F2 with most of its history on the hills. Originally hillclimbed by Bill Woods and the tub was a 77 F3 built up with F2 suspension.Later hill climbed with continued success for many years by Richard Drewitt(?) until about 2001/2002.I remember seeing the car at Shelsey Walsh and it looked and sounded great. No doubt that if this is Peach's car its a good un with very good history.Not sure of the chassis number though.

if u had read the earier thread details u will see that 1 f2 car mr peach has is the chris drewitt f3 tub "F2" car he ran with BDG this car now runs hart in DBT events and cannot get fia papers as its not an F2 car
he has purchased from usa a pukka plated f2 car and no doubt its the can am car u guys refer to in the earlier thread as
1 its logical!
2 i recall him saying it came with some odd body parts but the f2 body had toleman on it

Re other toleman cars
where are the RT2 cars?

Originally posted by driftwood
Re other toleman cars
where are the RT2 cars? On another thread (http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46930). Nearly all sorted out now.

Originally posted by driftwood
mr peach ... has purchased from usa a pukka plated f2 car and no doubt its the can am car u guys refer to in the earlier thread as
1 its logical!
2 i recall him saying it came with some odd body parts but the f2 body had toleman on it Can you say more about these "odd body parts"? Has anyone else seen these?

Allen

i havent seen them-they havethem and im convinced ( trying to recall what was said as i didnt pay to much attention to those dtails ) they mentioned they are can am body parts
and its logical
why else would a 782 be in usa? Polak had 1 car in his collection
78A/B cars raced in atlantic & S Vee

What Ian says about the 782 and spares sold by Marc Smith to Tilanus makes complete sense with the car's history. At the first race of 79 [Mallory, 11 March] Smith had a big accident after a collision with Andy Barton. The tub was badly damaged and Smith missed the next few races - returning at Brands on 29 April. Press reports were that the car had been rebuilt around a new tub at March.

Now the fact that Ian says the plate is on the spare tub repaired by Gomm, not on the running car, suggests to me that this is indeed the original Rad Dougal tub, as rooted at Mallory in 79 and eventually rebuilt as a spare by Smith rather than being put in the skip, or used by March as the basis of a new car.

Chris

Hi, the former Salisbury 78-2 no 10 (Bernard de Dryver) was the hillclimb car of Chris Cramer. It's sill alive and now in my garage.

znarfg, good to know the car is still 'alive'! What are your plans for it ? Does it still have the semi-ground effect pods fitted, or is it in original 782 condition ? Do you know who had it after Chris C ?

Hi Dan,
the car was sold from chris c. to the new owner in Germany. The new owner never drove the car. Chris C. has had a accident, due that accident the bodywork was destroyed and the car has got a new cassis. The son of Chris C. drove the car later, without the sidepods and with a 2 liter Hart 420 R. Now I have make a new origial 782 bodywork. Next year I will go with the european f 2 club (www.europeanf2.com)
Not bad my English!???
Franz

Originally posted by znarfg

Not bad my English!???
I'm sure we can all understand it perfectly well

Franz
i can supply probably the new body work and i have some used parts for 78 car might be F3 i need to check the shape
see also www.f2racing.com
send me private message

Cramer (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p3867690.html)

Cramer 2 (http://rupert8766.fotopic.net/p3867691.html)

Here are a couple of photos of the Cramer March in action in 1980

they look 792 ish for ground efect tunnel or home made specials

I thought this thread needed an update. I've based this on Chris's early post plus the later additions:

782P-1 Prototype - won 1977 Donington F2 race- 1978 used for testing

782-1 Ron Dennis [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: T-car (Hoffman and Cheever)]

2: Toleman Group: Rad Dougall [F1R]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Dougall] 1979: Paul Smith for UK Atlantic [ex Dougall and number given by AS] Retained to 1981; Tilanus autumn 1981. Retained 2004.

3: Forti - Necchi [TNF-AF];

4: Markus Hotz [TNF-AF];

5: Bob Salisbury [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Neve]

6: Alan Docking for Alex Ribiero. Alex Ribiero [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Ribiero] 1979 Phil Dowsett [AS & MN 'ex Ribiero']. 1982: Dave Hoban [noted by Jeremy Jackson]

7: Works: Giacomelli 1978 car. Team (works) - Giacomelli [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Giacomelli]; [David Franklin 1979 according to Dan but see 782-9]; so to Japan?

8: Works: Surer. Team - Surer [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Surer]

9: Works: Winkelhock Team - Winkelhock [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Winkelhock]; David Franklin 1981 [AF, so presumably his 1979 car]

10: Salisbury: Bob Salisbury [TNF-AF]; Bernard de Dryver [Easter 78 Thruxton: de Dryver] ; Chris Cramer 1979 [AF]; James Jack 1981 [AF,Mason] ... Germany ... 'znarfg' 2004.

11: Pierre Maublanc; Maublanc [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Maublanc]

12: Toleman: Rad Dougall. Toleman - Rad Dougall [TNF-AF]; Retained 1979 for Dougall and Tiff Needell ... Les Edmunds c1989 ... Phil Price c1997 ...

13: Project 4: Ingo Hoffmann; Ron Dennis [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Hoffman]

14: Project 4: Eddie Cheever; Ron Dennis [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Cheever]. 1979: Dick Bennetts: Eje Elgh in NZ [confirmed by DM] then returned to UK and sold to Charlie Kirkby for UK Atlantic

15: [Easter 78 Thruxton: Zunino]; TNF-AF: Team - Zunino - the following note is added :- "at the end of the season, converted to Formula Atlantic spec by Vince Higgins, working for Teddy Yip. The plan is that it will be raced in Macau by Alan Jones on hire to Teddy Yip. It will then be rented to Murray Taylor for Marc Surer to race in the Tasman series. It will then be sold in New Zealand."; Dave McKinney has in NZ for Teo Fabi then sold to Ken Smith to at least 1982.

16: [Easter 78 Thruxton: Jarier], F1R says Maublanc. Maublanc [TNF-AF] ...

17: Euroracing: Piercarlo Ghinzani; Maublanc [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Ghinzani]

18: Astra: Piero Necchi; Forti [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Necchi]. 1979: San Remo for Ariel Bakst, replacing car damaged at Thruxton, Pascuale Barberio at Misano

19: San Remo: Alberto Colombo; Pavanello-Colombo [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Colombo]. Retained to 1981

20: Benelli: Roberto Marazzi; Pavanello [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Marazzi]. 1979 San Remo: Badly damaged by Bakst at Thruxton, perhaps resurrected for Pedersoli in 1980

21: "Pavanello - Ghinzani - Chassis plate altered to read 782 F2/18" [TNF-AF]

22: Markus Hotz [TNF-AF] ... BMW Museum [DM]

23: Brian Henton; Brian Henton [TNF-AF]; [Easter 78 Thruxton: Henton]. Retained 1979 and run as rent a car for Hayje at Zandvoort and Ribiero at Donington ... Evan Boddy (ZA) 1982/83 ...

24: Gerd Bichteler; Hotz - Biechteler [TNF-AF]; 1979: Klaus Waltz; 1980: Walter Raus for Jo Gartner

25: Hotz [TNF-AF]

26: Stephen South; "Stephen South - Oct 78 sold to Alo Lawler" [TNF-AF]; 1979: Adrian Russell; Godfrey Crompton 1979 [AF]; Roger Philpott 1981 [AF]; Roy Lane 1981 [AF]; Norman Galbraith 1982 [AF] ...

27 Le Mans [TNF-AF]

28 Le Mans [TNF-AF]

782-S1 Polifac Show Car [TNF-AF]

PM: 'Prototype modified?' Jack Kallay for Geoff Lees

In 1978 not known

Lehmann: Peter Scharmann/Helmut Bross [April]
Salisbury: James King/Gianfranco Brancatelli [April]
Gerard Pillon [perhaps a Maublanc car] [June]
Vicic [Japan]: Mark Surer [July] and probably Warwick [November]
Racing Team Combat: Hisayoshi Mitsuhashi [July]
Lista: Marcus Hotz [Sept. probably 2h, maybe the Scharmann car]
Fumiyasu Satoh [Sept, prob 2h]
Vicic: Giacomelli [Nov] 1979 Le Mans Co: Gabbiani, JAP GP 'a 782 used last season by Giacomelli'
Speed Star [Japan] Didier Pironi [Nov, prob 2h]

Key for additions: Easter 78 Thruxton = Autosport's report on that race; DM = David, AF = Adam's hillclimb notes; TNF-AF = Adam's post on TNF.

Allen

I don't think Hotz would have had a second-hand car, he was the March agent for Switzerland (and Germany?) und usually ran brandnew machinery - will look into it!

Hotz car would be a car for Freddy ( lista) lienhard to race and ran by hotz

Hotz had virtually retired after winning the 1977 Swiss Championship, driving a 762 at first (sold to Gerd Biechteler in May) and then a brandnew 772, which he sold to Fredy Lienhard after securing the title well before the season's end. Lienhard won once in it, but then Hotz reappeared (same car?) for a couple of hillclimbs and Fredy had a new 782 the next year - hm...

Anyway, in '78 Hotz won at Les Rangieres in a LISTA/Buler-sponsored car, presumably Fredy's, but at Dijon in September he appeared "in a car borrowed by Peter Scharmann" - bingo, Allen! Nothing in the Hockenheim report about the identity of Hotz' car, but Locher's is described as ex-Ribeiro!

Hotz still looks after freddy`s cars today after all these years

Allen, 782-26, the South/Russell car I'm sure goes to Jim Stevenson in 1980 for Libre/Aurora, tho' I don't think he did any of the latter. Where after that I don't know, given the geography, maybe it is the Galbraith one? I'm pretty confident the Salisbury cars, -5 & -10, went to Douglas & Gavin late in 78, and were used by Cramer and Crompton into 79.

Correction: the September circuit race of the Swiss Championship was also at Hockenheim in '78, not Dijon - that was '77, the race won by Lienhard.

Fredy L. and Markus Hotz were old buddies going way back - it was Lienhard who bumpstarted Horag (Hotz Racing Arbeitsgemeinschaft) in '68, after HAS (Hotz & Hofstetter Automobile Sulgen) had collapsed due to Hofstetter pulling out. The first batch of the Horag HAS 3 was built in Fredy's basement for a couple of friends.

Re: 782-18 in 1979 - At Enna, both Bakst & Barberio in 782s. F1R records them both as -18.

This was Bakst's final race of the F2 year, so Barberio at Misano for -18 is OK?

I don't have an Autosport/MN report, so was Barberio's -18 at both races, or was Bakst in the usual car at Enna, or is one -20 rebuilt, or...

Guys,
RE 782-23 ex Henton.I see from A/S at the end of 1980 that Evan Boddy has a classified ad " March 782/B wanted " and that Henton is advertising 782-23 for sale.Boddy has a London phone number as his contact, although he was resident in ZA.As a) he is now deceased and b) the car was never entered in a ZA F2 race I can't work out when it actually arrived here in ZA.
Does anyone know if this car ran in the UK in 1981 or 82 with another owner before Boddy bought it, or can we assume Boddy did in fact buy it from Henton at the end of 1980 ?.
Thanks
Ian

re Gailbrath car was he driving 782 for the TV demo when he was killed?
re Douglas & Gavin cars i read AS a while ago circa 1980 with the cars for sale inc photos

Originally posted by Dan Rear
Allen, 782-26, the South/Russell car I'm sure goes to Jim Stevenson in 1980 for Libre/Aurora, tho' I don't think he did any of the latter. Where after that I don't know, given the geography, maybe it is the Galbraith one? I'm pretty confident the Salisbury cars, -5 & -10, went to Douglas & Gavin late in 78, and were used by Cramer and Crompton into 79. My attribution of 782-26 to Crompton is due to a comment in Adam's 1981 hillclimb list which calls Galbraith's 782-26 "ex-Crompton".

Adam - could you check your original notes on this?

Could Crompton have crashed 782-5 during 1980 and bought 782-26 from Stevenson to replace it?

Thanks

Allenm

Originally posted by allenbrown
Could Crompton have crashed 782-5 during 1980 and bought 782-26 from Stevenson to replace it? Crompton destroyed/wrecked/wrote-off his 782 at Fintray 15 June 1980.

But he raced again at Bouley Bay six weeks later in a(nother) 782 before producing a 802 in time for Prescott in September.

Allen

OK, I can't figure it out. Crompton appears to have rebuilt his 782/79B but his 802 is ready by August so it's hard to believe he bought another 782 just for a couple of months.

Galbraith's 782P is out during 1980 at the same time as Crompton's 782/79B but is said to have started life as a 742.

Stevenson's 782 appears several times early in the season but goes missing after the 11 May Ingliston race.

So I'm baffled...

"Galbraith's 782P is out during 1980 at the same time as Crompton's 782/79B but is said to have started life as a 742"

u cant make a 742 into a 782 tubs are different!!:nyah:

"782P" is what he called it. How much it looked like one is anyone's guess.

Ray Rowan also had a 742-BDX in 1979 that was described as a 742/782 in 1980 and 1981, Ted Williams had a "772/782" in 1978 and Richard Ames had a 752/782 in 1981. For some of these guys, I guess the addition of a 782 rear wing may have justified the new name.

However, I think I read in "Northern Lights" at the beginning of the 1980 season that Galbraith's March had been brought up to full 782 specification by Robin Smith - or Robyne Smythe as he may then have been.

Allen

!"782P" is what he called it. How much it looked like one is anyone's guess."
Its possible that he had fitted 782 bodywork to make it look" modern"- Im sure 1 of our wonderful readers will send in a photo to satiusfy your curiosity !!:laugh:

"Ray Rowan also had a 742-BDX in 1979 that was described as a 742/782 in 1980 and 1981,
Ted Williams had a "772/782" in 1978 and Richard Ames had a 752/782 in 1981. For some of these guys, I guess the addition of a 782 rear wing may have justified the new name."

I would suggest these guys ( except Rays 742 car) had wide tub cars and easy to "update" the car to 782 body wing spec and maybe they fitted some different uprights and retained the march tub:rolleyes:
uprights on march cars are the same from 72-77 for sure maybe even thru to 79 models ( i leave room here for an amendment form another reader to confirm this statement or recify it where necceassary):unworthy:


However, I think I read in "Northern Lights" at the beginning of the 1980 season that Galbraith's March had been brought up to full 782 specification by Robin Smith - or Robyne Smythe as he may then have been.
Smithy has also been smithy as far as i can recall and at the time in question he was still in Scotland and not wales:beer:

Hello all,
the former Jo Gardner car(782-24) is owned by JB-Racing in Germany.

Does anybody has information about 772-7 , 762-6, 732-084
Many thanks

732-084 is an interesting number as the build record I've seen only goes to 17. Tell me more! Could it be 732B-4?
732-8 was Colin Vandervell's F2 car.

762-6 was a Project 4 car in 1976, largely driven by Vittorio Brambilla
772-7 was a Euroracing car, alloted to Pesenti-Rossi by F1R.

Chris

Andy Barton's selling some random bits on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7933568014&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

all parts sold !!
re732-084
i bet the number is the Arch motors frame number under the rollhoop and we all know there is no cross reference of arch # to chassis nos

Allen,

Sorry for not responding earlier to your question re. 782-26, but I've just returned from a week or so in France.

I have dug out the original programmes, which I summarised for the notes I gave to you during the summer.

It IS possible that the "ex Crompton" note which I attributed to Philpott's 782, related to the next car on the entry list.

I'll e-mail you the scans and then you can make up your own mind.

Hi Adam

I see what you mean. The comment is ambiguous.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/EntryList-Loton-81-04-20A.jpg

I think it is safest to remove "ex-Crompton" from our history of 782-26. The evidence we have left suggests it goes from Stevenson in 1980 to Philpott in 1981 and thence via Lane to Galbraith.

Then it appears Galbraith's '782P' is a red herring as he appears to replace it with a Chevron B48 in 1981 and then return to the March fold with the proper 782-26 in 1982.

Allen

Allen,

Yes, the note is ambiguous.......I probably didn't realise it was going to come under such scrutiny, all those tears ago!

Adam, some really interesting stuff there.

What does your writing say next to the Philpott 782, I can't make it out ! Also the notes next to the Williams 762, is it "ex Turnbull" ?

The Richards ex-Franklin car I presume is a 'real' 772, the ex-Zunino one DF had in 1978 ? The Harvey 792 ex-Henton is the one BH's team ran for Locher and Lopez in 79 is it ?

Finally the Ted Williams RT1 that he was entered in. Where did this car come from do you know ??

Questions, questions !!

Adam, some really interesting stuff there.

What does your writing say next to the Philpott 782, I can't make it out ! Also the notes next to the Williams 762, is it "ex Turnbull" ?

The Richards ex-Franklin car I presume is a 'real' 772, the ex-Zunino one DF had in 1978 ? The Harvey 792 ex-Henton is the one BH's team ran for Locher and Lopez in 79 is it ?

Finally the Ted Williams RT1 that he was entered in. Where did this car come from do you know ??

Questions, questions !!

Dan,

The note against Philpott's car says "? ex Frank(lin), ex Rich(ards)" but I think this probably refers to Ames' car above.
As far as I remember this WAS a 752.

Yes, it does say ex Turnb(ull) against Williams' 762

I never saw Ted Williams in the Ralt RT1. No more idea as to which car this was.
But, does my memory tell me that Rob turnbull once drove a Ralt?

Adam, from memory the Franklin/Richards car was a 742, ex Depailler I seem to recall. Rob T did have a RT1, from about 1976, nrand new I think, he later wrote it off I believe, though Catlow's Atlantic RT1 was said to be based on a damaged hillclimb tub...

Dan

AS report for the Atlantic round at Brands 15.3.81 describes Catlow's RT1 as 'ex Turnbull' and Catlow also used the car at end 1980.
Who had it before Turnbull?

Chris

Chris, think Rob T had it from new, certainly it was one of the very early ones.

Dan

If Turnbull had it from new it must be mid 77 to end 77 as that is where gap in AF's Ralt records is [and we know 10 of those missing 24 cars from other sources]

My guess is 2h

Chris

Chris, Turnbull had it the year after he dominated the 1600 class in Climbs with a BT35, was that '76. If so, then the RT1 was new from spring '77.

Dan

That narrows it to one of 3 cars
71, 74 or 75

we know production up to 70, 72 was Eden's car for Tony Rouff
73 was a Ralt American car for Craig Hill which went to NZ in the end
76 was for Mario Pati and 77, used by de Angelis and Brancatelli in F3 was delivered in June.

can we eliminate any other cars or do we have observations of this car in Turnbull's or Catlow's hands?

Chris

I have noticed this thread has drifted north of the border...
Early hillclimb memory is Rob Turnbull's RT1 well off at Doune, Apr 78 - Usually a sign that hefty damage had been incurred. Can't remember it being out after that -Did Rob get rid of it after that in a written off state?
Norrie Galbraith's B48 Chevron was "book ended" by two Marches. Prior to the Chevron, he had a 742 updated to, at least look like, a 782. Even at 13 years old, I could tell it was not a true 782. His 2nd march was a true 782 and sadly this was the car that he was killed in.
I remember Jim Stevenson's car was 742/782. I am not sure if that was Norrie's car or not.

Chris, do you have access to the Chris Mason 'Uphill Racers'book ? I don't but I saw it once and was very impressed by its detail. I suspect the answer to the Turnbull RT1 may be contained in it.

Cameron, I'm certain the Stevenson car was the genuine 782, no 26, the ex South/Russell car.

Originally posted by Dan Rear
Chris, do you have access to the Chris Mason 'Uphill Racers'book ? I don't but I saw it once and was very impressed by its detail. I suspect the answer to the Turnbull RT1 may be contained in it. On p283, Mason says it was "a new Ralt RT1 fitted with a 2.0 Cosworth BDG". His first outing appears to have been at Loton on 11 April so the car must have been delivered quite early. He isn't evident at the three Sprint Championship rounds before 11 April.

Originally posted by Dan Rear
Cameron, I'm certain the Stevenson car was the genuine 782, no 26, the ex South/Russell car. Could Galbraith and Stevenson have done a swap? Or do we need to dig up the reference to Stevenson's car being South/Russell again and check?

Allen

Allen, I'm certain Stevenson's was ex-Russell. Can't see why he would have swapped it for Galbraith's older car, unless he took it in part-ex and moved it on. Which year are we in here, 1981,82,83 ?? I recall he had the ex-Leslie/Duffield RT4 in about 1983, then a Mclaren M29C after that, and then the GRID ?

If he did take the ex-Norrie/Richards/Franklin 742, I wonder who had it from him.

The ex Fabi 782 March i believe is with Warren Heron in Pukekohe ,New Zealand,I will confirm chassis number and inform on Monday,

That's actually another ex-works F2 car, c/no 16, raced by Fabi not in F2 but in the NZ F/Pacific series. Heron has owned it since 1983, I believe

Yesterday I've saw the 78-2 S1. It's in the "Mobile Tradition" in Munich.

For Information:

The March 782-02 is currently in the ownership of Phil Price and has been for some time. As far as I can tell its ownership trail is as follows -

1978 Toleman Racing car delivered with Hart 420R fitting kit.
Rad Dougall raced the car throughout 1978.
Toleman were having problems with the Ralts so had the 782 chassis fitted with 792 sidepods.
Rad Dougall won the Thruxton Rd of the Euro F2 Championship in 782-02.
Toleman sold the car at the end of 1979 but here the trail goes cold until...
Paul Smith acquired the car and installed a 1.6 BDA for FAtlantic.
Smith later sold the car to Roger Orgee who continued to race the car in FAtlantic until he sold it as a roller to....
Les Edmunds in 1983. Les installed a 2.1 BDX and later a Hart 420R. Les then removed the engine and the 782 was pushed to the back of the garage whilst Les fitted the engine into a Sports Libre.
Phil Price acquired the car as a roller after Les Edmunds death (1995) and rebuilt it with a 2.5 Hart 420R. Phil still has the car sat in his garage and is open to offers! :cool:

Steve, I don't think 782-2 went from Paul S to Roger O. Paul S used the car all thru' 1980, first in F At, then with a Hart in F2/Aurora. I saw Roger O's 782 in an April '80 Atlantic race at Mallory, Paul S was also there, so it can't have been the same car. I reckon Roger O's car may have been a 'bitza' based on his 742/772P tub.

I see that you live very close to me !!

With respect to the previous info:

This was given to me by Phil Price. He was closely linked with Les Edmunds rebuilding the Hart engine. Is it possible that the 782 went to Roger Orgee in some swap deal? Before being swiftly sold on to Les Edmunds?

DAN - Is there a NW get together soon?

Steve, as soon as I know of one, we usually have them monthly, I'll let you know. Overon the 'other Forum', they're usually sorted out.

For no apparent reason, I thought of 782s this morning, in particular the Martin Mansell F At car. From trawling the thread I don't think we ever clarified this one. Anyone any new thoughts in this area, its far too fluffy for TNF...

Have some more information on the Roger Orgee "772"
An ad for the car in A/S late 1979 says it was built in 1978 on a new tub.
As the car is described by Orgee in 1979 programmes as a "742/772P" I'm
guessing it was a new 742 tub - though we might want to speculate how new
that tub was in view of our knowledge of March's recycling practices - clad in
772P bodywork.

Would it have ever carried a plate? I rather doubt it.

Chris

Jeremy Shaw (who I usually trust as a good source) say "Andy Barton has acquired a new March 79B". Not sure about this one though, I reckon it was probably a 782 updated.

Chris, I think we've speculated on this one before, IIRC the Orgee car had Friswell connexions, though it looked like a 77B/772P. In 1980 he described his car, presumably the same one, as a '782', and then a '79B'. I don't recall reading anywhere that he'd got a new car over the 79-80 winter, so I suspect it was the same one he'd had in '79, ie the 742/77B/772P/whatever (!!).

Dan
The Friswell connection was the engine, according to a little Autosport piece in June 79. Originally a Geoff Richardson BD series.

Chris

Thanks Dan. Barton's "new" car is described as a 78/79B later in the year, so goodness knows.
It wasn't the ex Scheckter 77B further updated, because that's for sale alongside
the 78/79B at the end of 1979. Could be a real 78B underneath it all, but I'd agree
more likely 782.

Chris

Chris, as ever you're ahead of me, my memories were based on that AS piece! I presume Roger O is still around, is he contactable I wonder ?

yes he is i have tel email info

Chris, you're right re the 77B, 'cos we know Muter raced it alongside Andy a year or so later. IIRC, I've speculated before that I think it may have been based on the ex-Project 4/Hoffman 782. Can't recall where it went after Andy, though by '81, he'd modified it to look much more like a 792 as I recall.

yes he is i have tel email info

DW, could you ask him what, if anything he recalls re this March?

will drag and paste all the info mentioned and mail him

Andy Barton's 79B was not his old 77b converted. He ran both cars simultaneously fro Dave Muter and Cameron Binnie. I can't remember the 79b in 782 trim but I do remember it being described as a 78/79b. Dan is right, he modified it heavily with a 792 style nose. Don't know what happened to it.

Cameron,
Does the name Colin Burbeck ring any bells with you ?.He apparantly ran a March 782 (modified sidepods) between 1986 and 1996 with a Hart 2L in Scottish/Northern England hilclimbs, and then until 1998 with a BDD.It was then bought by a friend of mine," restored" by Simon Hadfield and now resides in Cape Town.
Cheers,Ian

Name rings a bell with me, tho' as a Northern/Scots FF racer in mid-late 70s. I don't recall him in a March, anyone else ??

Colin Birkbeck I think. Like Dan name resonates as FF1600 driver in late 70s.
Maybe did libre races up at Ingliston with it?

Dan/Chris,
Many thanks,now that I have the name spelt correctly I see that he is still competing in various events in a Mitsubishi Evo.Will let you know what he recalls of the March 782 if he replies.
Ian

I have just trawled through this thread to see if I could find any reference to a 782 being campaigned in hillclimbs and sprints by Martin Brockhouse. He used the car from 1987 to 1991 inclusive. He ran the car with a 1.6 BDA installed.

Can anyone confirm the chassis number of the 782 that was run by Les Edmunds? It is alledged to be the Easter Thruxton winner used by Rad Dougall.

I have 782-5 re-emerging in 1983 and 1984 with Keith Cox driving. Anyone know if this was either re-tubbed or just straighten?

I have 782-9 with Bill Morris in 1987 to 1992.

Finally I have David Franklin with 782-7 from 1979 to 1981. Did he switch at some point from -7 to -9?

782 Dougall Car Is Mentioned Before With Phil P
782-9 Is Ex Winklehock Car Destined For Usa When Its Finally Restored
Franklin Had 2 Cars So I Assume Yr Saying He Had Chassis 7 & 9-#9 Went To Bill

Just been looking at Japanese F2 results and they really liked those 782s. Even allowing for some of their many 752s being upgraded (Japan only imported one 762 and no 772s), there still appear to have been six 782s racing in 1979:

Diatone Racing (Le Mans Company) - two cars one for Keiji Matsumoto and the other for guests
Speed Star Wheel Racing - two cars for Kunimitsu Takahashi and Naoki Nagasaka
Tomei Jidousya - for Kenji Takahashi
Masami Kuwashima
Richard Geck (maybe his 752 upgraded)

As only two 782s are shown as being sold new to Japan, this implies three or four more going second-hand. Leading contenders would be some of Ron Dennis's cars (782-1 and 782-13), some works cars (782-7 if Franklin didn't have two, and 782-8) and Jarier's Maublanc-run cars (782-11 and 782-16). This would explain why we are missing so many 782s in 1979.

Allen

Allen, I think 782-13, or the remains of it after Ingo bashed it up in the Temporada, became Andy Barton's 782/79B in 79 over here.

Having just come to this forum, these two brief observations may be appropriate.

Thruxton F2 1978 782-20 BMW Roberto Marazzi (Scuderia Carlo Benelli) and Thruxton F2 1980 782-20 BMW Oscar Pedersoli (Sanremo Racing). This, I hope, confirms an earlier post. Did Bakst use this chassis at Thruxton in 1979 or a 792?

Thruxton F2 1980 782-23 Hart Wolfgang Locher entered by British Racing Team. Presumably this was Brian Henton in some guise.

Both of those very useful. Thanks.

I think I feel another summary coming on.

Having just come to this forum, these two brief observations may be appropriate.

Thruxton F2 1978 782-20 BMW Roberto Marazzi (Scuderia Carlo Benelli) and Thruxton F2 1980 782-20 BMW Oscar Pedersoli (Sanremo Racing). This, I hope, confirms an earlier post. Did Bakst use this chassis at Thruxton in 1979 or a 792?

Thruxton F2 1980 782-23 Hart Wolfgang Locher entered by British Racing Team. Presumably this was Brian Henton in some guise.

Alan/Allen (this could get v tricky!!), from memory Superhen's Team was "BFO Racing", ie British F1 Racing, a hangover from his '77 GP effort, with that dodgy '761'. Did Locher race at Thrux in 80, I'd thought he finished with F2 the year before, with the BFO 792? IIRC he had a big'un part way thru' 79, and Cocho Lopez took over the ride, or was it the other way round?

Re the Italian matters, presumably Colombo bought 782-20 from Benelli after 1978, and raced it alongside his own car thru' 79 and 80, after he'd given up on the 792, and before he got the Tolemans. I wonder if -20 was the one that ended up with the wonderful Roberto del Castello aboard.

"Alan/Allen (this could get v tricky!!)" Dan whats the tricky part??
the info u gave or the fact we now have to allen/alan browns on this thread!!

That we now have two Alen Browns

Allen

I vote that the two Alan/Allen Browns be given the special task of sorting out Mike Stow's and Dick Barker's BT28/29-20...

I think that 782-20 was the chassis Bakst damaged at Thruxton in 1979, and
San Remo subsequently ran him in chassis 18 at Nurburgring

Chris

Yes, definately agree 2 x Browns allocated to sorting the mentioned Barker confusion , with or without their agreement.
Bryan.

...with or without their agreement.Which will not be forthcoming. We'd need at least a third Allan Brown if not a fourth.

Perhaps someone would care to adopt a pseudonym - rather like Barker's
BT28-20 plate at Mallory...

chris

I owned chasis 782-7 in Japan. Formula 2 spec came from Giacomelli to Kenji Matsumoto who won the Japan F 2 Championship with the chasis in 79.

I drove it there in 80 finishin 5th in the championship with the best finish 3rd in March or so of 80.

The chasis was severly damaged in August of that year (roll over) and completely re-done by Kaira (former fitipaldi mechanic)

I believe the car still exists and is owned by a dentist there named shimizu
who still keeps it in F-2 spec

Loved the car

I should have mentioned that the 782 -7 chasis was always powered (and still is I think) by BMW m12/7 engines - Japanese versions had several builders. This one always had Matsura engines

I posted a message today - owned #7 and drove it In Japan

Hi - Richard Geck here - No the 782 was the Giacomelli car that went to Matsumoto then me
I also had a 752 bought from Fuschida

Best finish for me in the 782 was 3rd

Welcome Richard!

Thanks for clearing up that your 752 and 782 were separate cars. There seem to have been quite a lot of 782s in Japan in 1979 - do you remember others being imported at that time?

Do you recall the chassis number of your ex-Fuschida 752?

Steve - are you able to look up your source for Franklin having 782-7? We need to review all that now.

Allen

In 1979 Japanese GP Gabbiani appears in a 782 entered by the Le Mans Co that AS describes as 'a 782 used last season by Giacomelli'. Giacomelli appears November 78 in Japan with a 782 entered by the Vicic team. Could this be chassis 7 entering the country after its Euro F2 service?

I wonder about David Franklin's descriptions of his cars sometimes.
The 742 was supposedly ex Depaillier, but then so was the 742 used by Bernard Chevanne in Euro F2 in 1976, and the plate off Depaillier's car is on
a car in California, bought from Europe.
Ex Giacomelli tub maybe?

Chris

Chris

I have no problem with Franklin having 782-9 (as observed by Adam) but Dan told us in 2004 that his Autosport "confirm that the ex-Bruno car, -7, did got to Franklin for climbing". This caused us to believe Franklin had two 782s which can't be right. I am inclined to believe that he only had one 782 and that was 782-9. The reference to him having 782-7 can probably now be put down to a typo of Franklin misdescribing his car to a journo.

Allen

Steve - are you able to look up your source for Franklin having 782-7? We need to review all that now.

Allen

Through a third party I have solicited the following comment from David Franklin who is just about to depart for Monaco:

" I owned only one 782. It was the ex-Giacomelli car which Bruno used just in the last 2-3 races in his F2 championship year and it was immaculate when I bought it."

The car was sold on to a driver in Cornwall and thence to Bill Morris in South Wales. I believe Morris still owns the car. I will try to confirm this through various contacts!

:)

If you guys were paying full attention, I told you a long time back, maybe P3 (yes, quite correct - #43 - JT) of this thread he did NOT have 'Jack O' Malley's' (Giacomelli) car, it was Winkelhock's car:woot:

It's being rebuilt for the owner who took it from Bill, & DF allegedly got "humpy" with BM when the truth was coming out in the late 90`s over the car not being 'O`Malley`s' car !!

I believe Mr Gecks comments above that he had BG car in Japan, as
Le Mans co were March agents and would get works cars sent to Japan F2 races for a Euro driver, ie a works pilot, and then the car would be sold to a domestic team or driver for the following season as Euro races finished 1 month before the Japanese series.

I have not had time to work out who the Fuji 1000 winner was but as he has now "fessed up", it saves me looking up his race results!!:cool:
He also fills in blank spaces in F2 car history of Japanese cars as these guys do not keep records or take much note of these facts ( I dont think they have anoraks in Japan), so unless a car changes hands from 1 known race person to another it's hard to track down chassis history
Richard, are you in USA or Japan?

So are we now saying DF had 782-9 all along, which was the Winklehock car for the bulk of the Euro F2 season, but Bruno used that car for the last few races. If so, which one did Winklehock use, -7 before it went East ??

If this is the case, then DF and Richard G are both correct - and me also !!

The main importer to Japan was Le Mans Shokai
they brought in at least five cars maybe six - and put european drivers including pironi, daley, giacomelli, surer , cheever and one or two more in those. they also brought in the 79 and 80 series cars which is when I left japan. Everybody came to race Rosberg, South, Needle, Thackwell, Elg Gabiani and more -

Le Mans always kept two cars for those drivers - two other chasis went to Speed Star Racing for Fujita and Motohashi or sometimes Takahashi Kunimitsu who was a former bike champ.

The racing there was great - it is nice to look back to see names like Rosberg, Pironi and Lafite finishing behind me - but the truth is I learned a lot from those guys - wish I kept the chasis and the great BMW engines.

My first Prototype Race I destroyed one of the 75 S chasis you were talking about in another thread. Do not know the chasis number - later drove a Chevron B36 BMW and later Mazda 2 and 3 rotor - winning a few races driving with Hiroshi Fuschida -

Good old days

Nice to find you guys - I am now in Japan.

Did no racing since 81 with 1 or two exceptions - a fun Motorola Cup race in aCobra R and Daytona 24 hour in 2000 (disaster but fun) Spend my time doing some instruction for the porsche club and BMW

Remember this puzzle over the Orgee "782"?

For Information:

The March 782-02 is currently in the ownership of Phil Price and has been for some time. As far as I can tell its ownership trail is as follows -

1978 Toleman Racing car delivered with Hart 420R fitting kit.
Rad Dougall raced the car throughout 1978.
Toleman were having problems with the Ralts so had the 782 chassis fitted with 792 sidepods.
Rad Dougall won the Thruxton Rd of the Euro F2 Championship in 782-02.
Toleman sold the car at the end of 1979 but here the trail goes cold until...
Paul Smith acquired the car and installed a 1.6 BDA for FAtlantic.
Smith later sold the car to Roger Orgee who continued to race the car in FAtlantic until he sold it as a roller to....
Les Edmunds in 1983. Les installed a 2.1 BDX and later a Hart 420R. Les then removed the engine and the 782 was pushed to the back of the garage whilst Les fitted the engine into a Sports Libre.
Phil Price acquired the car as a roller after Les Edmunds death (1995) and rebuilt it with a 2.5 Hart 420R. Phil still has the car sat in his garage and is open to offers! :cool:
Steve, I don't think 782-2 went from Paul S to Roger O. Paul S used the car all thru' 1980, first in F At, then with a Hart in F2/Aurora. I saw Roger O's 782 in an April '80 Atlantic race at Mallory, Paul S was also there, so it can't have been the same car. I reckon Roger O's car may have been a 'bitza' based on his 742/772P tub.[QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Chris Townsend]Have some more information on the Roger Orgee "772"
An ad for the car in A/S late 1979 says it was built in 1978 on a new tub.
As the car is described by Orgee in 1979 programmes as a "742/772P" I'm
guessing it was a new 742 tub - though we might want to speculate how new
that tub was in view of our knowledge of March's recycling practices - clad in
772P bodywork.

Would it have ever carried a plate? I rather doubt it.

ChrisWell it turns out (drifty's been talking to Roger) that Orgee did buy a 782 from Paul Smith at the end of 1979, the same time he sold his 732/742/772P "up north". He updated the 782 to 79B spec with bits off Andy Barton.

So how could Smith have continued to race a 782 after selling one to Orgee?, I hear you ask. Simple, he had two: "the Rad Dougal car and a pile of parts". Smith kept one car, the one that later went to Tilanus and flogged off the other to Orgee. Having retubbed his 782 after an accident, Orgee recalls selling it "to another chap from the frozen north (Huddersfield?)" - is this roughly where Les Edmunds is?

I have 782/12 recorded as Paul Smith's F2 car in 1980 - I'll go find out where I got that from. I see above (page 2) that we are quoting Autosport identifying Smith's car as 782/2. Could he have had both?

Allen

I have 782/12 recorded as Paul Smith's F2 car in 1980 - I'll go find out where I got that from. I see above (page 2) that we are quoting Autosport identifying Smith's car as 782/2. Could he have had both?The number 782/12 for Smith's 1980 car comes from F1R (F2 at Zolder and some rounds of Aurora) but Autosport's 1980 Aurora reports clearly show it as 782/2. I think F1R have read the "ex-Dougal" description and assumed that means it was Dougal's 1979 Thruxton winner. It wasn't. Smith acquired Dougal's 1978 car 782/2 before Dougal won Thruxton in 782/12.

Toleman kept 782/12 through 1979 and also had Henton's 782/23 in the team through the season. So, unless Smith acquired 782/12 or 782/23 from Toleman at the end of 1979, and I see no reason to believe that, the car that went to Orgee was built from spares and has no claim on any chassis number.

Allen

I have just trawled through this thread to see if I could find any reference to a 782 being campaigned in hillclimbs and sprints by Martin Brockhouse. He used the car from 1987 to 1991 inclusive. He ran the car with a 1.6 BDA installed.

Can anyone confirm the chassis number of the 782 that was run by Les Edmunds? It is alledged to be the Easter Thruxton winner used by Rad Dougall.

I have 782-5 re-emerging in 1983 and 1984 with Keith Cox driving. Anyone know if this was either re-tubbed or just straighten?

I have 782-9 with Bill Morris in 1987 to 1992.

Finally I have David Franklin with 782-7 from 1979 to 1981. Did he switch at some point from -7 to -9?Steve

We don't know what the Brockhouse car is.

The Les Edmunds car is now known to be the Paul Smith 782 bitza.

The Keith Cox 782/79B is presumably the Crompton car, which Dan has identified as 782-5 on the grounds that both Salisbury cars went to Douglas & Gavin for Crompton and the sister car (782/10) became Cramer's mount. Crompton did have a major wreck at Fintray 15 June 1980 but was back out six weeks later so it looks like it was repairable. Do we know for sure that Cox had the ex-Crompton car?

Morris had the ex-Franklin car so both of those should be 782-9. I think we straightened out that it was 9, not 7, a while back. There's nothing to suggest Frankin had two 782s.

So that just leaves Brockhouse to figure out.

Allen

... and Peter Warren, 2.0 March-Hart 782, tenth at Weston 7 Oct 1989.

Remember this puzzle over the Orgee "782"?

Steve, I don't think 782-2 went from Paul S to Roger O. Paul S used the car all thru' 1980, first in F At, then with a Hart in F2/Aurora. I saw Roger O's 782 in an April '80 Atlantic race at Mallory, Paul S was also there, so it can't have been the same car. I reckon Roger O's car may have been a 'bitza' based on his 742/772P tub.

Having retubbed his 782 after an accident, Orgee recalls selling it "to another chap from the frozen north (Huddersfield?)" - is this roughly where Les Edmunds is?
Allen

Les Edmunds came from down on the South coast so the frozen North reference would not be our late lamented Les!

:)

Guys below is the email from Roger Orgee regarding his cars and i have set him some questions so u dont have to ask them!

Here goes,memory may have faded,it's not me racing now but my son,Roger jnr in F BMW!
MARCH 742.
bought this off Jonathan Buncombe (who bought roller off Geoff Friswell) JB fitted an FVD motor and I raced it at one Silverstone libre race and intended to do F2 Aurora with it.
Saw sense at the last minute and fitted a Richardson Atlantic motor and entered Hitachi Atlantic in 1979.
As car was a real 742 it's running gear was too heavy for Atlantic so I bought a load of 772p lightweight bits off Kim Mather and got it down to a competitive weight and 772p spec.
Sold it up north as a roller at the end of 79. do u recall who to?
ATLANTIC racer male white straight!! -The 772p suffix was to add value!
so u added on a dummy 772P plate or infered car was in 772P trim INFERRED
(See here:- http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82121&page=11 - JT)

MARCH 782/79B
bought a 782 off Paul Smith (of BMTR ) Paul built this from spare parts he had in stock so God knows what the plate was!
aha this is going to be fun Smiffy said he had the rad dougal car and a pile of parts
1 car was built and sent to ZA to bernard tilanus the other is in maidstone went sprinting both cars have 782 #?? tag on them both claim to be the REAL dougall car !!
The car was then converted to 79B spec,mainly ground effect pods etc off Andy Barton. Ran in 1980 Hitachi Atlantic best place third at Thruxton.Binned it big time at Oulton park,new tub provided by Andy Barton.
Sold complete car to another chap from the frozen north (Huddersfield?) at the request of the bank manager!
Bill woodl/willy wood by any chance??

LYNCAR BDX
bought this in 83 of Keith Corridon in bits.I think it became a kit of parts backwards against the armco somewhere as the casing was bust. It was originally Atlantic spec (Villota?) but Martin Slater of Lyncar (Lyn and Carol) wondered how the name came!! had fitted full ground effect side pods and exhaust system. no idea of chassis no though.
fitted full F2 Spec BDX complete with John Dunn megaphone system,and won BRSCC open series 2 litre class in 1984 or was it 85? brilliant little car,we never changed anything.Had it rebuilt at Slough where I did most of the work as Martin was building the six wheeled armoured vehicle used in Aliens 2!
Sold the roller to a dealer in Trowbridge,where it stayed for ages, and the engine to the USA (first time I ever made a profit from a racecar).
Last heard of at Brighton speed trials looking 'orrible without its pods!
(See here:- http://www.ten-tenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87593&page=3 - JT)

Next car was the ex Danner F3000 March 86B,any questions?
u mean 85B that he won the euro F3000 c/ship! yes,WON BRITISH OPEN in 1987,ran it in 88 and sold it less dfv and bought 88d reynard f3000.
that car had v6 GA in it to go sprinting now less engine
Thought it was written off at sprint meeting as GA and polar moments didnt mix! sold it at end of 88 less DFV



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Drifty
Question to Orgee
The 1979 car. to Atlantic racer in the North. Tony Westwood? John Bowtell?
[These are only unidentified Marches in 1980 series]

The Paul Smith car
A/S gives chassis no 2; ex Rad Dougall MN 8.3.79 p.2
We know that he stuffed it really badly at R1 Mallory, 4.3.79 and does not appear again until 29.4.79 Brands. So clearly didn’t have a second tub then. AS says Gomm built replacement tub
Did he then get a third spare to accompany one in the car and the write off
Sells car plus write off to ZA and sells spare to Orgee?

Or how about this? Sells the lot to Orgee in early 1980 to fund his F2 car and then it goes on its way to S.Africa via the chap in the North of England. It doesn't show up before 1983 if I'm right. If Smith uses a 782 in 1980 it's 782-12 right? BTW what is evidence for 782-12 as 1980 car?

The bit about 782/12 being his 1980 car is wrong. It got into my data from F1R records (via a contributor) but Marcus Pye's reports in Autosport state 782/2. I'm 90% sure F1R got this wrong and attributed 782/12 to the car because it was said to be ex-Dougal.

I was mystified why Smith would have had two tubs even though Simon Hadfield told me the other day that Smith got mountains of spares from Toleman. However, you've demonstrated that he didn't have a spare tub at first so must have acquired it later. Maybe the first tub was straightened out later and formed the basis of the Orgee car.

I believe we have covered the march 782 rad dougal( 2 cars ) elsewhere
so lets rewind
we had it from the 2 horses mouths about the 782 cars ( there are "issues" here with this car that "cross my bows" so i have to be careful in its discussion hence me getting the info direct from smiffy to avoid a nose being put out of joint!!!:p )

1 smiffy told me and i did report that he did have 2 "cars" and sold 1 directly to Bernard tilanus to ZA ( & BT also told this directly to me ) and 1 stayed in UK ( so i assume that went to Roger O ) this car has now rolled around uk in sprints and is now "lodging" with Mr P the engine builder but owned by his buddy for many years
Smiffy has said words to the effect of no idea what is which but he had the parts /cars tubs/ and they where sold - also back then who cared!

2 i do not believe he had a 3rd tub never mentioned this but next time i get my tyres fitted i will ask him

3 i think you may be right the bent "original" tub was repaired and car made up and the "original" car has new Gommy tub fitted and is the "continuous car-he cannot recall who had what car

4 yr question has been raised

Allen

What if F1R was right? Both 782-2 and 782-12 are ex Dougall
I can't quite fathom the logic of selling one - especially one with a nice new
Gomm tub - and buying another, but who knows.
What else could 782-12 have been doing in 1980

Chris

can we have a list printed of all the 782 car owner drivers so i can keep up with the plot
i cant be good looking AND intelligent ALL the time
Toleman ran 2 cars henton and dougal
1 car was BH own car he brought to the team ( part payment deal? )
1 was RD car
the 2nd toleman car has come back to UK from usa ( used in can am format) last year with mr peach # 6 rings bells maybe im wrong hence list request
in 79 RD ran car for a few rounds as RT2 was ready for BH form R1? and RD got his later in the season

Based on Adam Ferrington's copy of build records; F1R; various observations and press notes:

782P-1: Debuted by Giacomelli Sept 1977. Test car 1978, destroyed in accident Sept 78. [Geoff Lees' sole 782 outing?]

782-1: Project 4. Spare for Cheever and Hoffmann, not known after 78

782-2: Toleman: Rad Dougall. 1979 to Paul Smith, then ??*!

782-3: Astra: Pierro Necchi, possibly destroyed in accident at Pirelli test track in March, see MN 13.7.78 p8

782-4: Marcus Hotz, not known after 78

782-5: Bob Salisbury: Patrick Neve/James King/Gianfranco Brancatelli
1979: Douglas & Gavin for Godfrey Compton

782-6: Alex Ribiero; 1979: Phil Dowsett [FAt]; 1980: Dowsett; 1981 unknown; 1982: Dave Hoban [FAt]

782-7: Works: Bruno Giacomelli perhaps to Japan late 78; 1979: Keiji Matsumoto; 1980: Richard Geck

782-8: Works: Marc Sürer not known after 78

782-9: Works: Manfred Winkelhock/Bruno Giacomelli last 3 races; 1979: David Franklin retained to 1981; 1982: Fred Davies

782-10: Bob Salisbury: Bernard de Dryver; 1979: Douglas & Gavin for Chris Cramer

782-11: Maublanc: Pierre Maublanc not known after 1978

782-12: Toleman: Rad Dougall; 1979: Toleman: Rad Dougall; Needell (Donington)

782-13: Project 4: Ingo Hoffmann [crashed Temporada]; 1979: Andy Barton [F.At] retained 1980

782-14: Project 4: Eddie Cheever; 1979: Eje Elgh (NZ) to Charles Kirby (FAt UK); 1980 retained by Kirby; f/s On Track in 1981 Transatlantic Racing Services, 3125 Gateway Dr, Norcross, GA 30071 'March 782/B F/A roller ex Eddie Cheever/Project 4' perhaps the Kirby car?

782-15: Works: Riccardo Zunino then Theodore Racing: Alan Jones [Macau] [March sales record with note that converted to FAt for Jones at Macau on loan to Yip then Murray Taylor for NZ]. However, carrying plate from 782-16 by this time. 1979: Teo Fabi (NZ) observed with chassis 16 on, but said to be ex Zunino/Jones then to Ken Smith; 1980: Smith and retained to 1985 at least

782-16: Maublanc: Jean-Pierre Jarier[F1R and March sales record] used by Ertl at Hockenheim; chassis plate to 782-15 at post-season rebuild!

782-17: Maublanc [March sales record] [F1R says Euroracing for Ghinzani]

782-18: Forti [March sales record] probably the spare car [had two at Donington running the spare briefly]; 1979: San Remo: Bakst at Nurburgring replacing Thruxton damaged car then Pascuale Barberio [Misano]

782-19: San Remo: Alberto Colombo; 1979: San Remo: Alberto Colombo; 1980: San Remo: Alberto Colombo [he was stuck in the seat...]; 1981: San Remo: Alberto Colombo

782-20: Benelli: Roberto Marazzi; 1979: San Remo: Bakst?; 1980: San Remo: Oscar Pedersoli

782-21: Pavanello: Piercarlo Ghinzani [March sales record, number altered to 18 so replacement chassis?]

782-22: Marcus Hotz [March sales record] then 1983: Georg Neugebauer [HC Cz]

782-23: Brian Henton; 1979: Henton: Boy Hayje (Zandvoort); Ribeiro (Donington); 1983?: to Evan Boddy ZA

782-24: Gerd Biechteler; 1979: Klaus Waltz; 1980: Walter Raus: Jo Gartner

782-25: Marcus Hotz [March sales record]

782-26: Stephen South to Adrian Russell; 1979: Adrian Russell; 1980: Jim Stevenson [FL]

782-27: Le Mans Co Japan:

782-28: Le Mans Co: One to Vicic Team, other to Racing Team Combat...

Chris thanks for this list i make some comments for debate or is it dispute!
782-1: Project 4. Spare for Cheever and Hoffmann, not known after 78
[782-2: Toleman: Rad Dougall. 1979 to Paul Smith, then ??*!dont go there!!:laugh:

782-3: Astra: Pierro Necchi, possibly destroyed in accident at Pirelli test track in March, see MN 13.7.78 p8

782-4: Marcus Hotz, not known after 78possibly Interserie can am body or Freddy leinhardt poss sold into mountain racing

782-5: Bob Salisbury: Patrick Neve/James King/Gianfranco Brancatelli
1979: Douglas & Gavin for Godfrey Compton

782-6: Alex Ribiero; 1979: Phil Dowsett [FAt]; 1980: Dowsett; 1981 unknown; 1982: Dave Hoban [FAt]

782-7: Works: Bruno Giacomelli perhaps to Japan late 78; 1979: Keiji Matsumoto; 1980: Richard GeckB]this car crashed written off ( see his posting on 782 thread[/B]

782-8: Works: Marc Sürer not known after 78maybe in bmw museum?

782-9: Works: Manfred Winkelhock/Bruno Giacomelli last 3 races; 1979: David Franklin retained to 1981; 1982: Fred Davies Bill Morris being rebuilt to go to usa owner

782-10: Bob Salisbury: Bernard de Dryver; 1979: Douglas & Gavin for Chris Cramer

782-11: Maublanc: Pierre Maublanc not known after 1978

782-12: Toleman: Rad Dougall; 1979: Toleman: Rad Dougall; Needell (Donington)car went to usa can am body fitted now in uk with peach

782-13: Project 4: Ingo Hoffmann [crashed Temporada]; 1979: Andy Barton [F.At] retained 1980was this car written off? his 802 became a Don GT car

782-14: Project 4: Eddie Cheever; 1979: Eje Elgh (NZ) to Charles Kirby (FAt UK); 1980 retained by Kirby; f/s On Track in 1981 Transatlantic Racing Services, 3125 Gateway Dr, Norcross, GA 30071 'March 782/B F/A roller ex Eddie Cheever/Project 4' perhaps the Kirby car?

782-15: Works: Riccardo Zunino then Theodore Racing: Alan Jones [Macau] [March sales record with note that converted to FAt for Jones at Macau on loan to Yip then Murray Taylor for NZ]. However, carrying plate from 782-16 by this time. 1979: Teo Fabi (NZ) observed with chassis 16 on, but said to be ex Zunino/Jones then to Ken Smith; 1980: Smith and retained to 1985 at least

782-16: Maublanc: Jean-Pierre Jarier[F1R and March sales record] used by Ertl at Hockenheim; chassis plate to 782-15 at post-season rebuild!

782-17: Maublanc [March sales record] [F1R says Euroracing for Ghinzani]

782-18: Forti [March sales record] probably the spare car [had two at Donington running the spare briefly]; 1979: San Remo: Bakst at Nurburgring replacing Thruxton damaged car then Pascuale Barberio [Misano]

782-19: San Remo: Alberto Colombo; 1979: San Remo: Alberto Colombo; 1980: San Remo: Alberto Colombo [he was stuck in the seat...]; 1981: San Remo: Alberto Colombo

782-20: Benelli: Roberto Marazzi; 1979: San Remo: Bakst?; 1980: San Remo: Oscar Pedersoli

782-21: Pavanello: Piercarlo Ghinzani [March sales record, number altered to 18 so replacement chassis?]

782-22: Marcus Hotz [March sales record] then 1983: Georg Neugebauer [HC Cz]went into Polak collection car in usa was for sale 2 yrs ago have some pics

782-23: Brian Henton; 1979: Henton: Boy Hayje (Zandvoort); Ribeiro (Donington); 1983?: to Evan Boddy ZA

782-24: Gerd Biechteler; 1979: Klaus Waltz; 1980: Walter Raus: Jo Gartner

782-25: Marcus Hotz [March sales record]

782-26: Stephen South to Adrian Russell; 1979: Adrian Russell; 1980: Jim Stevenson [FL]

782-27: Le Mans Co Japan:

782-28: Le Mans Co: One to Vicic Team, other to Racing Team Combat...

To continue the 782 theme, Simon mentioned to me yesterday a 'barn find' Maublanc 782. Can you fill in some details Simon? Do you know which chassis it is?

Roger O answered yr question

Westwood had similar car at the same time as me
Bowtell had a 742 or 772.

Anyone know which March Duncan Bain had in 1982? He won a libre at Brands on 25 April when Autosport called it a 1.6 March 78B-Nicholson McLaren.

The Bain car I've queried before, Allen. It looked like a genuine 782/78B rather than a bitza, and as with all his cars, was well turned out. He used it in various FA races as the series died over here in 82-83. An ex-Paul Smith car perhaps. David Newell had a similar car in 83.

If the Bain car was a 782, the most likely candidates would be Barton's 782/79B/792, last raced by Barton at the end of 1981, and Jim Stevenson's 782, last seen in 1980 as far as I can tell.

A Paul Smith car is a possibility if Edmonds didn't buy his car directly from Smith but Steve W says he did. Also Ian H told us that Tilanus bought his 782 directly from Smith.

Less likely but still a possibility would be one of the three UK hillclimb cars converted back to circuit spec.

Allen

I think I aksed the Duncan Bain question of Roger Orgee, via Drifty, and got a negative, so not a Paul Smith car

Chris

Bain appears with a 78B at Thruxton at the end of 1981. Charlie Kirby is in the same race with his ex Cheever 782 conversion, so it can't be that. It could, however, be Martin Mansell's 78B, which goes missing at that point.

Chris

Hamish Somervilles 782 is chassis 11. from Alain Filhol (still with the switch labelling - in french - as seen on the photos of the tracktest of the car in autohebdo which identified it as Jariers) via me to Fred Harris in the US, Fred never finished the car and I believe David Irwin completed the restoration -the tub had been shortened 4" for Hillclimbing- for whoever sold the car to Hamish

BTW The ex-Polak car -which is in very original trim - is in the same shop

Bain appears with a 78B at Thruxton at the end of 1981. Charlie Kirby is in the same race with his ex Cheever 782 conversion, so it can't be that. It could, however, be Martin Mansell's 78B, which goes missing at that point.

Chris

Did both cars, the Bain and Kirby ones I mean, strta the race? If not, I wonder whether they could have been the same car, given they raced together in Clubmans. Perhaps they were mates, and Bain bought his from Kirby?? I'm fairly sure the Bain car wasn't the Barton one, the latter had been pretty much altered by 81, the Bain car in 82 looked like an 'unmessed' 782/78B.

Dan

You might be right. Kirby certainly has his car for sale at that point [though interestingly in American magazines, at least it's a 782B described as ex Cheever and in the UK] so you might be right. I only have a mint programme page. If someone was there with a lap chart...

Chris

Roger Philpotts' March 782

I noticed that I broken a link to an image above showing the 1981 Loton entry list with Adam's annotations. I've fixed that but also added my own scribbles to this copy:

http://www.oldracingcars.com/images/EntryList-Loton-81-04-20AB.jpg

The "ex-Crompton" comment doesn't fit against anything we know for either Paul Williams' ex-Turnbull 762 or Roger Philpotts' ex-Stevenson 782. The "ex-Franklin/Richard" suggests that Richard Ames' March 752 is the ex-Franklin March 742/772 which doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

Allen

Allen

I can't add much, other than that your interpretation of my 1981 scribbles seems correct.
Note, however, that the Ames car note is "? ex Franklin & Richards" so I must have had some doubts at the time.
The "ex Crompton" comment would definitely refer to Philpott's car, not to Williams'.

Is the implication that the Williams car is ex-Turnbull? Ex-Germany could mean the Jim Evans car, which I think was an ex-KWS German F2 car (Willy Deutsch???).

Yes - ex-Germany/ex-Turnbull would be Turnbull's ex-Kauhsen 762-4. Evans had a sister car, the ex-Kauhsen/Willi Deutsch car: 762-11 probably.