March 772P - 778

Dear All, my brother suggested I use this site to trace history of my March, hope I don't bore you with all the details. Sitting in my garage is MARCH with chassis plate 772-05 attached to monocoque tub 773:36. Bought by me in May 1999 off a guy in Australia who had done a deal with Garry Cliff (Magnum Motorsport) in New Zealand in 1998. Garry Cliff had acquired the car from John MacKinlay (Auckland) around Nov.96 and John acquired it possibly late '94 from Kenny Smith. The NZ advertisement (NZ Speedsport No.88) suggests it was an ex Riley car and it was called a 77B. However I talked to Brett and his father, John and the details didn't ring a bell with them. Also Kenny Smith was a bit vague, thought it wasn't the ex-Dave Saunders car but possibly the ex-Giltrap car. That is about all I know of NZ history. Then there is the European history!! It is well documented that 772-05 (with tub 772:05) was the Hart powered car that Giacomelli drove in the first four races in 1977. According to Duncan R. records my tub,(773:36) was in 77B-16 being tested at Silverston on 15/2/77 with a BMW and FT200. This package was rebadged? as the first '77 prototype 772P-U1. This prototype does the first four races with P.Neve, A.Ribeiro and J.Mass as drivers. Come Vallelunga May 15th Giacomelli gets to drive the P car and Alex Ribeiro gets stuck with 772-05(slower). According to Autosport May 19 pg.40 race report about the P car and I quote 'This was not the same chassis that had won the previous two races in the hands of Jochen Mass. After its Nurburgring victory it was found (literally) to be falling apart at the seams, especially around the rear bulkhead, so a completely new chassis was built with a stronger monocoque, a revised F1-type nose subframe and strengthened bulkheads' etc. etc. Another Autosport report June 2 pg.3 suggest that there is a rift between Ribeiro and March, although March deny it. However Ribiero goes on to drive a Chevron on June 26. I can only assume it is because he got to drive the slower wide bodied car and was not happy. So, after Vallelunga we seem to have tub 773:36 and wide bodied 772-05 both sitting forlornly in the March factory (772-05 does not sufface again in '77). Giacomelli goes on for the rest of the season in the prototype U1. My theory is that March build up another prototype (spare?) using the reglued/rerivetted 773:36 tub and all the F2 mechanicals off 772-05 (possibly for Giacomelli) and this is why I have this combination in my garage. I can find no mention of a second protoype being built, however, miraculously a second one appears at Donington on Oct 30 with Marc Surer as driver. Alex Ribeiro has been put back in U1 while Giacomelli moves on to the 782 prototype for this final race of the season. 772-05 appears again in 1978 with Sergio Mangotti listed as the driver at Nurburgring and Mugello. I would love to see a photo at this time to check if it is the wide bodied tub or the narrow sidepod P configuration. I have no information between the 1978 appearance and the mid 90's recent history. Can any of you guys out there shed some light on this little problem. One other minor clue is that on one of the spun rear rims (composite wheels) is written Shierson's name. Possibly tagged with a name while being repaired? Any info will be gratefully accepted. Hopefully attached is a photo of the car in NZ sometime in mid '90s.

Kevin

Welcome! My understanding of the 772/772P issue was that March tubs changed design radically with the 75 model and that the 772 had much in common with that. To get back to a slimmer line I thought they used a 742 tub, but clearly not.
Certainly a number of 742s ended up in the narrow pod configuration in the late 70s, mimicking what the factory had done with their cars. [I remember Carlo Giorgio running like this, and the Richard Jones 742.]

However, if you are thinking that 772-05 as raced by Mingotti in 78 is your car with the narrow tub and pods, as raced by Surer at Donington 77 that's not the case.
Both the 772Ps have post March history.U1 goes to Norman Dickson and is raced in both 78 and 79 in the Aurora AFX series [in 79 it's driven by Brancatelli and Pascal Witmeur rather than Dickson].
The Surer car, called U2 by F1R, is sold to Patsy McGarrity for Atlantic racing in Ireland in 78 then comes back to England in 79 where Kim Mather and Mike Wilds race it, with Pontins sponsorship in the Aurora series.
So U2 can't be the Mingotti car with a 772-5 plate and a different tub.

Chris, I think we may have another mess here .

In front of me I have ex. D.R. 13/12/02 the following ,

77B-16
B.M.W. F2
White
Monocoque no. 773-36
Gearbox no. FT200-1147
Test Car .
First run at Silverstone 15th. February 1977
Chassis no. changed to 772P-U1


If 772P-U1 goes to Norman Dickson etc. how come the tub. 773-36 is still in Kevin,s car .??????????????
Bryan.

On this subject, anyone anything further on the de Dryver 1977 F2 March. Described as a "778", or maybe that was a misprint for "77B". Whatever, it looked pretty similar to the 772Ps that year. IIRC Bill Gubelman was invloved with the team that year, was it a new one built on an old tub of his ??

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

For information:

March 772P-U2 is currently in the hands of Jonathan Varley and is fitted with a 1.6 BDA. Jonathan continues to sprint and hillclimb the car.
Its previous owner was Alan Newton who had fitted a couple of different engine choices. Initially Alan ran it with the Formula Two 6 cylinder Abarth two litre unit. This was then replaced with a 3.5 litre Cosworth DFR. Before he sold the car as a roller to Jonathan.

772P-U2 was, I'm pretty sure, the 2nd 'real' 772P built. Only used once in 77 by the works, for marc Surer at the October Donny meeting. -U1 was the regular car used by Neve, then Ribeiro, Mass and Bruno.

For 1978 -U1 goes to Norman D for F2/Libre/Aurora, then into the Scottish Libre/Climbing scene. -U2 goes to Patsy McG for Irish FAt, then Kim Mather for Aurora. Kim says he's recently seen it adverted in the UK.

772P-U2 was, I'm pretty sure, the 2nd 'real' 772P built. Only used once in 77 by the works, for marc Surer at the October Donny meeting. -U1 was the regular car used by Neve, then Ribeiro, Mass and Bruno.
For 1978 -U1 goes to Norman D for F2/Libre/Aurora, then into the Scottish Libre/Climbing scene. -U2 goes to Patsy McG for Irish FAt, then Kim Mather for Aurora. Kim says he's recently seen it adverted in the UK.

I wasn't aware Jonathan Varley was selling -U2, I was chatting to him at the week-end and he never mentioned he was selling. Are you sure it wasn't -U1 that was for sale?

:)

Steve, Kim just said he'd seen 'my old March' advertised, I presume he meant his 772P, which was -U2.

772p u2 is allegedly in Canada being restored; he bought it as a basket case.
772p u is in UK with John Holmes.

Where does the Bernard de D '778' fit into all this? A new 77B tub maybe with a 2-litre motor, that pre-dated the works take on these matters - much like the Beuttler '721G'... And where did that car, ie the 778, go after 1977??

We've also discussed the Crompton 772P on a few occasions. I spotted two references to it in Autosport.

1) Autosport 10 Aug 1978 p45. Godfrey Crompton has bought a "newly built March 772P from Peter Bloore". He also bought a 762 from MRE for its Hart and sold the 762 on to Turnbull.

2) Autosport 6 Sep 1978 p54. Tony Westwood is mentioned going well at Prescott in his "ex Godfrey Crompton March 77P".

Crompton clearly had cash so I doubt he would have bought some old bitza from Bloore. As it's more likely to have been built from new components, I've tentatively given this third 772P an identity of 772P ['B'].

Allen

Allen, I think you're right to have a 3rd 772P car, although only 2 were built for the factory BMW team.
One is in UK, DBT racing, and one has appeared in Canada as a resto. project, but I think there are 2 cars with the same tag#. It would not be difficult to create a 772p as it is a narrow tub chassis car with std March parts fitted; it all depends on the tub front being flat or a slope and how steep!!:laugh:

We've also discussed the Crompton 772P on a few occasions. I spotted two references to it in Autosport.

1) Autosport 10 Aug 1978 p45. Godfrey Crompton has bought a "newly built March 772P from Peter Bloore". He also bought a 762 from MRE for its Hart and sold the 762 on to Turnbull.

2) Autosport 6 Sep 1978 p54. Tony Westwood is mentioned going well at Prescott in his "ex Godfrey Crompton March 77P".

Crompton clearly had cash so I doubt he would have bought some old bitza from Bloore. As it's more likely to have been built from new components, I've tentatively given this third 772P an identity of 772P ['B'].

Allen

As Westwood is one of the missing chassis numbers from the sprint championship records how are you actually going to record this 'third' 772P?

772P 'B'

or

772P-'B'

Thanks.

As Westwood is one of the missing chassis numbers from the sprint championship records how are you actually going to record this 'third' 772P?

772P 'B'

or

772P-'B'

Thanks.Either I guess. The chassis number would be 'B' the same way F1R allocated 'P1' to a Parnell-built Lotus 24. I'm getting braver about allocating identities to 'extra' cars as if we don't do it, who will? But I only do it if I'm confident the car wasn't built out of something older.

You may have noticed that I'm moving away from using dashes or obliques to separate chassis numbers to using square brackets. I've done this mainly because it's hard to tell whether March 722/32 is March 722 chassis number 32 or an unknown March 722 upgraded to 732 spec. Ditto Chevron B25/7 and so on. It was never a problem on F1 cars when I started my system but the production cars cause all sorts of problems. So where you'd use 772-6/782 for Ted Williams' car, I'd now use 772/782 [6].

I hope drifty will excuse the anoracs discussing such minutiae.

If that is the case then I suspect the reporter may have been inferring that it was the first time at that venue or even the first time he had seen the car!OK, I'll go look it up again and give you chapter and verse.

Some guys need to get out more!!
Oulton Park Gold cup good enough for ya or maybe goodwood revival
Regarding 772P cars im sure the ex Norm dickinson car now with Holmes is true car thru time its the other chassis that has been "cloned"
so maybe the B designation applies to that chassis # for the "suspect2 chassis

with regards tio say the 772/782 [6]
is the car not a 772/6 [782] drivers name to defien why its say [782]
the car was and is always 772/6 on tag with 772 or 782 or whatever body fitted
cos im gonna split hairs here for the right reasons
the 752 762 772 tub is likely to be the same item BUT 782 is different thinner and a pressed alloy front bulkhead
poss uprights are different-wishbones will be for sure in track or wheelbase castor camber somewhere in the scheme of things
im not a march anorak but i am aware of fundamental differences to justify yr chassis numbering system!!

You must also consider the driver with a car trying to get his car "newer" by adding on the latest body he could acquire at the time whether it was that seasons design or just 1 year old- juts like people do with the car reg numbers!

Oh no, another anorak!

Yes, it's 772/6 and will always be 772/6. I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't. 782 updates don't change its identity, they just change the way it's described. Eyles car, as an example, is photographed in Autosport in early 1985 and looks just like a 782. It has 782 sidepods and a 782 nosecone. Yes, I totally understand that the underlying tub of a 782 is very different to the earlier tubs and no, I don't understand what changes had been made under the skin to the Eyles car. If I use a designation of 772/782, all I'm aiming to record is that the 772 had been upgraded in some way with 782 bits.

Mather's 772P was, according to Autosport, rebuilt on/around a "newly-acquired" 782 tub after its accident and was further updated with 79-spec sidepods. It appears to have kept its 772P plate but is it now a 772P or is it a 782? It would be interesting to find out the tub number on that car today.

Allen

I think that there is something to what Allen says about keeping the identity of the original plate and car within a modified description. So that the Orgee 1979 car would be "March 772P [732-1]-BDA Richardson"

However... I don't think we should be imposing descriptions on these cars that depend on our reading of the modifications. As far as possible we need to stick to the description given of the car at the time [in programmes and entry lists if possible, as the owner's description]. These may vary of course, sometimes from meeting to meeting. The use of the original model number and type in the chassis number brackets is the constant factor behind any modification.

Now going out...

Chris

However... I don't think we should be imposing descriptions on these cars that depend on our reading of the modifications. As far as possible we need to stick to the description given of the car at the time [in programmes and entry lists if possible, as the owner's description]. These may vary of course, sometimes from meeting to meeting. The use of the original model number and type in the chassis number brackets is the constant factor behind any modification.Completely agree with that. I picked a bad example with the Eyles car as that is always called a 772 despite its appearance. You chose a much better example with the Orgee car.

Given the second tub that is known to have gone into the Orgee car, it will appear in the forthcoming 1979 Atlantic results as 772P [732/1-2]; i.e. adding a -2 to denote a second tub, a notation introduced by Denis Jenkinson in 1970.

Allen

Allen

Problem with putting the extra tub notation is Jenks was there to note the new iteration. We weren't! We are relying on press reports or drivers to tell us and so it's a hit and miss affair. The first Orgee Atlantic car had a number of new tubs.
When Geoff Friswell bought it it already had a 742 tub in it, so presumably Calvert had improved it, and we don't know if March had retubbed the car in 1973 as well
Friswell put a new one [742] in in autumn 1976 after the Gold Cup accident
Orgee put one in in 1979 late season, probably after an accident at Oulton.

The car could be on its third or fourth tub.

Chris

Very true. It will be hit and miss and more miss than hit.

All I'm trying to do is to note the ones we know about. We'll definitely miss a few but it really helps when someone claims to have bought a tub from X and built it up into a new car to have noted when that car was retubbed.

E.g. the tub bought from Dave Prophet by Roy Lane at the end of 1970. I still haven't figured out why Prophet would have had a damaged tub and I can't now be bothered to work through Autosport looking for it. Similarly, Duncan Fox's ongoing work on the 'A' and 'B' M10 tubs is aided by knowing if a car was retubbed. The 'A' tubs seem to continue well into the M10B production but the number of M10Bs that were rebuilt on a new tub at one point or another is quite problematic.

To celebrate the new thread, I've done some digging on the Bernard De Dryver March 778.

Whenever MN or Autosport show an entry list, this car is listed as a 778 so it would appear that that's the way it was entered. Autosport, as usual, follow what's written down and refer to it as a 778 in their reports. "M.T." at Motoring News is more detailed in his reports and lists it as a 77B on his grids. He also refers to it as a 77B in the text of his reports. At Thruxton, MN shows chassis numbers for the cars but list De Dryver's as "77B/-". MN also mentions that the car is now to full works 772P spec.

F1R consistently use the number 778-15 for this car, implying that it was actually chassis 77B-15. However, as we don't know where they got this number from, it's impossible to be conclusive. Normally, we could trust F1R to have noted a number in person at the track but if "M.T." couldn't find a number for his report, maybe F1R got it from somewhere else.

Adam - if you're reading this - do your March records show anything about 77B-15, the '778' or the Bloore-built 772P of Crompton?

Allen

As I've said before on here, the de Dryver 77B/778 I noted v early in 77 at a Mallory Sat morning 'General Test Day'. Though I was only 14 then and only vaguely interested in tub ids, I clearly recall the plate calling it a "778".

The Bowtell 77B from a few years later looked v similar to the de D car, but that may be another story entirely.....

Adam - if you're reading this - do your March records show anything about 77B-15, the '778' or the Bloore-built 772P of Crompton?

Allen

Allen, Unfortunately no to all three questions. Just 2 772Ps listed, no 778.

The de Dryver car certainly wasn't 77B-15. That car was sold to Mike Rocke by Doug Shierson [Rocke still has the bill of sale]. The car was destroyed at Trois Rivieres in 1978 and Lloyds took the remains to sell as salvage.

Chris

OK, thanks, back to the drawing board then ...

A reference to 772P-U1. George McMillan's "ex-Giacomelli" 772P in Scottish libre (Autosport 16 Oct 1980 p47).

Lawson's car was called the sister car implying it's 772P-U2 but I'll take that with a pinch of salt. Also, Dzierzek was racing the Lawson 772P at Croft 19 Oct 1980 (AS 30 Oct 1980 p58).

Jonathan Varley had a very long trip across the grass at Cadwell Park on Sunday. The car ended up hitting the tyre wall head on. Scrambled the nose cone & nose box and did some damage to one front suspension mounts but should be repaired soon.

:)

U3 Steve? Did you mean U2?

Do you know the history of this car between Mather and Varley?

772P U3; where is that in the factory build list? I thought only 2 772P cars built.
John Holmes has 1; a 2nd car is in Canada.

U3 Steve? Did you mean U2?

Do you know the history of this car between Mather and Varley?

I believe it is U3. The car was run by Alan Newton over some years with various engines fitted including the glorious 6 cylinder Abarth and a V8 Cosworth DFR. Currently it sports a 1.6 BD tuned by Connaught.

I wonder if this could be the Peter Bloore - Godfrey Crompton - Tony Westwood car. Are you in touch with Alan Newton? Could he telol you where he got it?

I wonder if this could be the Peter Bloore - Godfrey Crompton - Tony Westwood car. Are you in touch with Alan Newton? Could he telol you where he got it?

I'll contact Jonathan Varley who I believe has the full history of the car.:)

guys ive now come to this thread:laugh:
i do not believe 772P U3 is a real car i believe it has been built from parts maybe 732 742 75b tub and parts assembled to create a car as back then who gave amonkeys about car history chassi plates etc
same with 772 car dressed up in 782 bodywork- the driver was looking to enhance his cars performance with the lates mods he could get or just create anewer looking car and enter his old 742-772 car as a 782:D

the susension parts to build Mathers 772 into a 782 tub are similar to look at but im sure will have subtle differences in angles track caster or wheelbase
To actually designate 772 from 782 for instance 772 is round tube front wbones 782 is square front lowers for starters :p
however im sure they can be made to fit a tub
im not sure off hand if 782 front upright is the same as 722-772
however the gauntlett is thrown down for any challengers and im sure u get my "Drift" that you can redress an old car to look "newer"
Re bernard the driver cars mail me list of questions u want to ask on his cars i will ask him
i spoke to him at BH june festival
he does remember his cars!

I'd only have two questions for B de D

1. What was the 778 built from? A 77B?
2. Where did it go at the end of 1977?

i will ask
shall i do it in french flemish or englsh?

Latest from Jonathan Varley is that he bought the car from Alan Newton who had the car for many years. Jonathan has already asked Alan who he bought it from and the reply was 'some bloke from down London way who used to sprint it!'

Jonathan will try again!

:)

Drifty

If BdeD can't immediately recall what happened to the 778, ask if it might have gone into French hillclimbs. It was entered for Guy Fréquelin at Mont Dore 1977 but didn't turn up. I haven't got into 1978 yet but that's where I may find it.

Allen

The BdeD car was owned(??)/entered by Gubelman & Gerard. Does this give any clues.

Drifty

If BdeD can't immediately recall what happened to the 778, ask if it might have gone into French hillclimbs. It was entered for Guy Fréquelin at Mont Dore 1977 but didn't turn up. I haven't got into 1978 yet but that's where I may find it.

AllenAnd indeed I did. Delage drives it on the French hills in 1978. It has lost its 'P' but Echappement mentions that it is 'ex de Drijver'.

Hang on! A little later Bernard Delage's car is described as being the ex-Mamers 772. There's a picture (Echappement Aug 1978 p127) and it definitely has the sidepods of a 772.

Rats! Back to the drawing board.

The last I heard of Max Mamers was using an ex Paoli 742 in 1975
When did he come buy a new 772 [presumably in 1977 if Delage is using it in 1978?]

Chris

That's interesting - I knew he had a 742 in 1976 but not which one. He may have acquired a new 762 late in 1976, I can't be sure yet, but he certainly drove a 762 in 1977, getting it updated to 772 spec quite early in the season.

Which was the Paoli 742?

Allen

Would be one of the two 742s sold to BP France and used by Laffite and Paoli. All of the records of chassis numbers I've seen attribute 24 to Laffite and 19 to Paoli. Furthermore, I think that there are observations of 24 with Jorg Siegrist in 1975.
MN only says ex Paoli when Mamers shows up at an F2 race, but I think we are safe with 19.

Chris

Where does Mike Slinn fit in here? I posted on here years ago that I'd met him and he told me he had an ex-Laffite 742. I presume its -24 then?

Where does Mike Slinn fit in here? I posted on here years ago that I'd met him and he told me he had an ex-Laffite 742. I presume its -24 then?

It is still in the BP France livery - well it was the last time I saw it!:)

The 742 BP car was purchased by Tony Dunderdale from Mike Slin a couple of years ago,Tony races it in Euro F2,

sorry what i also ment to say have a look on the Euro F2 web site under photo gallery The BP car is pictured on there, sorry dont know chassis no,

Found 1980 libre seasonal survey report it mentions george mc millan racing ex Jack o malley 772P car
stu lawson has a 772p car to race as well so what car wa sthis a the other works U2 chassis or a made up chassi form 742 type car?

Were they both racing in '772Ps' in 80?

If George McM has the ex-Norman D/Bruno car, Lawson can't have it too. -U2 was used by Kim M in Aurora 79, not sure after that - tho' it looked v different by the end of 79 to a true 772P
I don't think Lawson got it, OTOH his looked like a 772P, even tho' it can't have been. Based on an older March I'd say for definite, if it ain't the Dickson car.

I think that Stu Lawson's car was the ex Dickson March 772-3

Chris

so its likely he fitted 772P body parts?
would be hard to make the wide tub look like a slim tub though
any fotos anyone of this car
if its narrow tub its gotta be a modified 742/B car

When the ex Dickson 772 was in Sweden a few years ago, fully and nicely restored, it had with it some [though not a complete set] 772P bodywork, some of which carried the logo of Kim Mather's sponsors...

Chris

From when Mather's 772P was rebuilt on a 782 tub? (IIRC - the coffee percolater isn't working so I'm not running all four burners)

782 tub is different to 712-77b slim tub
783 78b 782 tub has special front bulkhead casting/pressing tub

Indeed - so when Mather acquired a 782 tub after Tony Ward (?) crashed his 772P, the 772P bodwork and bits would have been redundant.

getting confused here now
are u saying a 772P car crashed and was rebuilt around 782 tub?
or do i need to read the thread and wake up and smell the coffee as im mising something here

getting confused here now
are u saying a 772P car crashed and was rebuilt around 782 tub?
or do i need to read the thread and wake up and smell the coffee as im mising something hereAs if we'd make you go to all the effort of reading the thread...

Mather's 772P was, according to Autosport, rebuilt on/around a "newly-acquired" 782 tub after its accident and was further updated with 79-spec sidepods. It appears to have kept its 772P plate but is it now a 772P or is it a 782? It would be interesting to find out the tub number on that car today.

So kind!!
yes 782 tub and adding 792 bodywork makes sense that works
772P plate being added would then be irrelevent!
Did Kim have a true 772P car
1 car is still with us ex norman dickenson car
2nd chassis is allegedly in canada so how did he have true 772P car
or was it a 772 !?
any fotos to post anyone -Dan?

Dan

Any chance you could find out from Kim what happened to the crashed 772P tub and to the 772P/782? Or have we already asked those questions?

Allen

See what I can do chaps. The story, which I'm pretty confident about, and which I'm sure has been posted before (!!!) is.

Kim bought the ex-Surer 'real' 772P, -U2, from Patsy McG who'd used it in Ireland FAt in 78. It had only one F2 race, the late 77 Donny round. This was the sister car to the original 'real' 772P, that Neve/Ribeiro/Mass/Bruno has used in 77. That car, 772P-U1, went to Norman D for the whole of 78, some AFX, some F2.

Kim bought it jointly, I think, with David Ward (Stein Lager), the plan was for the latter to do some Libre in it for 79, Kim using it for AFX and the odd F2 race. Ward bashed it up in mid-July 79, just after Kim had replaced the troublesome BMW motor (ex-Walter Robertson RS2000 saloon) with a more reliable, and cheaper to run, BDG.

Kim and his team then rebuilt it on an 782 tub, but with 79B-type pods. These in fact came from Dave Price's Unipart F3 team, hence the dark blue colours. First race was Mallory July 79 AFX, still with BDG, he came 4th overall and 1st F2 I think, long time ago now! After that he got his works 792 ride, then the Durex B41 drives, the car being hired to Wilds for a couplke of F2 races. After that, I can't recall OTOH, will ask Kim soon.

thanks dan
puzzled how the 772P parts fitted to the 78 tub
772P tub is 712/742 unit
although uprights are the same wishbones would not be same connecting point/ angles
can you ask kim if the made new bones to fit the 782 tub
i also think 782 has square tub lower front wbones 772 had round tub

792/B pods will fit 782 tub no problem

fotos needed!!!

It's quite likely that very few of the 772P parts would have been usable on the 782 tub but Mather appears to have regarded this as a rebuild of his 772P, not a new car. The magazines at the time used the word 'rebuild' and Dan, having spoken to Kim directly, does too.

It would be very interesting to know where the 782 tub came from and what became of the damaged 772P tub.

772P U2 is allegedly in canada!
i cannot see how 782 tub makes a 772Pu car rebuild!!
thats like taking a tyrrell 009 and fitting 010 tub may look similar parts may fit( with some cutting fiddling? )
if the car has 782 tub 792 pods its a lot closer to a 78 79 car than 77 model
782 uses 712 fr 722 rear uprights
wishbones might fit unlikely though
rack rads pedals may all have been used and maybe even the nuts n bolts!

I know back then he would not have worried and worked on making the tub and damaged parts into a car to race ASAP

Agreed Drifty, as I put above, it was much more akin, visually at least, to a 79B, than a 782, and definitely nothing like the original 772P. I'll send Kim an email, see what he remembers, probably less than us lot, he's a 'normal' !!!

can u get fotos of the car of it as a 772PU2 then its mongrel 782/9B
ideally seek suspension underbody fotos
maybe he never took fotos as he is after all "normal"
when i look back i never took fotos of cars under the body but i do today !

772P U2 is allegedly in canada!I wonder what it looks like. Does it have a 782 tub in it?

ive mailed the man to see if he has car still- no response yet
he was going to restore it
i may still have his original email to me about the car and where it came from

Guys i now have the info needed am i too sexy for my shirt or what!
Another mystery solved:cool:
Car is now nearly restored

When Bob bought the car, it was in Vancouver, Bob purchased the car from a fellow (Mark ????) who bought the car from Gord and Ross Bently.
The Bently’s purchased the car from someone (the name escaped me) in Seattle in the early 1980’s as a roller. They then converted it to a sports race car with Mazda power and use the car for endurance racing from about 1985 to 1991.

When the man bought the car from the Bently’s, he intended to use it for enduro’s as well but two things happened, 1) Westwood, the local race track, closed, and 2) When he dismantled the car for rebuild he found the chassis tag, he then did some research and realised what he had. Mark then started restoration but realized he was in way over his head. He lost interest and, through word of mouth, put the car on the market, that’s when Bob bought it.

I believe that Bob has the name of the man from Seattle that brought the car from the UK in the early 1980’s. (I can’t remember) I’ll ask Bob and let you know.

As I understand things, the car went from March to McGarrity, then to Kim Mather, then to ??????.

The guy who had the car in Seattle said he bought it from someone named David ??? but he did not recall the last name. He also wasn’t positive on the year but he thinks it was either 1980 or 1981.

The car now has the narrow 742 style tub but it is not the way it was when the Bently boy’s bought it. Also is not fully sloped like a 712, it’s more like a 732. I’ll send a picture.
Another thing on the 772P
When the Bently’s got the car from Seattle, it had an engine bay or a Ford engine, not the BMW.

The Ford engine bay is shorter than the BMW by a couple of inches.

Also, the rear wing that came with the car matched the drawings that we got from Andy Gilberg and is a F2 style wing, not a F Atlantic wing.

When the Bently’s received the car it had some sort of squared off sidepods scabbed onto it, sort of like a 78B or 79B but not exactly. It looks like they used the center section from the 772P and added the square sides. The car still had the 772P castings at the front of where the curved side panel would have been but there was an adaptor plate riveted to it to adapt to the squared sides of the “updated” tub.

The car also has a 3/16” thick one piece front bulkhead, not a formed sheet one like a 78B or 79B.

There were about a million rivet holes drilled in the original center section, besides the originals to attach the curved sides, there were the ones for the squared tub sides and then the Bently’s added even bigger sides for the sports racer.

I think Bob has some pictures of the thing as delivered from the Bently brothers.

We re-skinned the tub using as much of the original March aluminium as was possible, the main center section and the curved sides are new as are the castings at the front of the curved side panel.

The car has a chassis tag but no evidence that it ever had the warning plate that was on the customers cars (Bob’s 752 had one).

Good work Drifty. Who's Bob?

This takes the history back to Seattle in 1980 and 1981 but 772P-U2 was last seen when wrecked in the UK in 1979 and rebuilt on a 782 tub. Let's hope Dan can get Mather to remember what happened to the rebuilt car and also what happened to the damaged 772P tub.

Bob is a man in a swiming pool with no arms and legs!:rofl:

I do not believe it was 782 tub fitted as i kept saying parts will not fit

read the mans comments u can see he said it has 742 712 style tub
I think Dans info is in correct ( no offense dan)
Kim sells car in 1980 after he uses 1979 rebuild programme
Maybe Dan can ask Kim who what where when he sold car
an AS adverts?
need under body fotos Dan can u get some?

Drifty - pay attention to the next sentence; read it several times slowly and commit it to memory:

Autosport (not Allen or Dan) said that Mather "rebuilt" his 772P with a 782 tub and then fitted 79B sidepods.

There is no point arguing with Dan and I whether this could have happened or whether the suspension would have fitted. All we're doing is quoting Autosport.

ok i now i move my lips and read very slowly
please accept my humble apologies:unworthy:

No offence taken at all Drifty, you know my knowledge of tubs/underbodies/rivets/bulkheads/formed sheets etc aint perfect.... Btw, whats 3/16" mean !!!

Still waiting to hear from Kim, will phone him next week if he doesn't email me by then

i would imagine the thickness of the wallet required to run a race car :rotate:
i guess u could ask the question
whats the difference between ` and "
i guess its 11:brm:

The 'David' quoted above, who the Seattle guy bought the car from in the UK, could have been David Ward maybe, who was Kim's mate, and who bashed it up in the first place?

Did Kim bash david afterwards?
can u get this sale to usa confirmed?

Autosport 2 Aug 1979 p29 Mallory Aurora report: "David Ward virtually destroyed the ... 772P at Aintree the previous weekend but since then ... the running gear has been rebuilt as a 782 around a newly acquired tub. Mather picked up the chassis unti on Wednesday and worked solidly with his little team through to practice morning to 'finish' the car."

The picture in Autosport and a similar one in MN show a 782. The text above strongly indicates a 782 tub was bought. Neither AS nor MN mention 79B sidepods but they are mentioned by the time of the Donington F2 race.

My list of questions for Mather is growing slightly:
1. Where did the 782 tub come from?
2. Just to make sure - was it a 782 tub?
3. What happened to the damaged 772P tub?
4. What happened to the rebuilt 772P/782/79B at the end of 1979?

from the foto i have been sent of 772P U2 its NOT 782 tub
its a 712 tub but it does have square tube lower front wishbones

Im afraid Allen we need Mathers fotos and input here of the car before and after the shunt/ rebuild so Dan saddle the horse and off ya go your country needs you

Having seen a photo, I would have said it was a 732 or 742 tub, not a 712. I couldn't rule out a 75B/76B/77B tub because I don't yet know how to recognise those.

But you're right that we need Mather's input to move this forward.

Allen u now have a bunch of tub fotos
im no expert but its not had to tell the differences once its pointed out
712 is flat across the top over pedal area
732 742 has a slope
the Atlantic B cars i think used a cross between the 712 and 742 tubs not sure if it depends on the year and some use 1 type or another
not seen enough to pass further comment

Also now having looked at 772Pu1 car fotos the front lower wishbones are square tubed not round as found on earlier cars

While looking at 1979 Autosports, I found the "ex-Giacomelli works car" 772P being advertised from an 0744 number (4 Oct p68). I assumed this was Dickson as he had the ex-Giaco car but when I checked a list of old dialing codes, 0744 was Billinge, Marshall's Cross and St.Helens. Where was Mather from again?

Dickson did have Jack o malley car 772p U1

Exactly. So why was it being advertised from St Helens?

IF it was Kim maybe he thought he had the jackomalley car its often an easy mistake people make that they had "works" car and could assume (or take poetic licence to use) the more famous driver had the car
Im reminded of 782 #9 as o mally car when its in fact vinklehocks
i do in fact do this with my own car
I tell everyone the famous driver its far easier the acknowledge the name and no one can dispute it with me and yes i can sleep at night!

Chaps, Kim was and is in Haydock. He does have an 01744 code no still. The chap selling the 772P-U1 (Ex Bruno/Dickson) was, I think, Colin Bennett who lived nearby. Kim was an acquaintance of Bennett's as was Alo Lawler, Bennett of course ran Dickson's cars at this time.

Double ******! All Kim's posts have gone missing too.

Mr Turner
i thought i was going mad and my 4 postings 1 very long and useful have disappeared
I asked allen if i had imagined our postings but someone has stolen them

we should have 2 more pages for the 10 and 11 june
AB had 5 Kim had 2 or 3 i had a few

Oh s--t!!! I've emailed Kim to say his posts may have gone missing, was there good stuff in them?

Kim explained the 772P with its 783 tub and 782/79B bits and told us Jim Evans sold it for him to a hillclimber. He said more, but I can't recall it all.

John - should we consider yesterday lost or are people still working to recover those posts?

Anyone noticed that if you type the word ******, 10 Tenths automatically changes it to a row of asterisks? Same with ****, ****, **** and ****.

I used all these words (and ******) when I realised we'd lost those posts.

oh **** what the **** can we do now

Dan effectively it was crucial info relating to the 2x 772 cars that Norman dickson raced owned by stuart lawson and others in bobby scotland with some questions to be answered about car ownership with missing names etc
plus the Mather 783/2 772P and the 3rd Bloore built car !!

Hi there again I have just spent some time doing this all again seem to have lost it is there a limit to the posts
Kim

Try again In 1979 I ran the x P Mcgarrity 772 P u2 first witha BMW engine Then later with a BDG the car was also used by the late David Ward for libre half way through the season David badly damaged the car at Aintree
As there was no P car parts quickly available the car was rebuilt into secondhand parts mostly fom J Price who ran the unipart f3 team .
most parts just fitted rear end mounts are the same and apart from some front wishbones and bodywork all parts transfered the car had 782 side pods not 792 .At the end of the season the car was sold through Jim Evans I think to a hilclimber dont know who Jim helped with parts and things to keep us going I probably put the chassis plate on the newcar also my cockpit ended up in Scandinavia on a 772 wide body tub probably Jim took the lot and sold them off Dicksons Cars & 772P was run from my garage by C Bennet that is why the car was advertised in St Helens .
can I upload photo's on here ?
Kim

Kim

One thing you said last time (if I remember it right) was that you based the rebuild around a 783 tub. Is that right?

Allen

yes it was an f3 tub might have been mansels ! they took them off when they began to flex making chassis adjustment impossible I did not know at the time . the f2 tubs and f3 tubs are the same except for outer deformables etc added on been like that all through the march range except for 772 wide body same as f1 design.

:nyah2: do i have to try to recall what info i added !!:banghead:

OK here goes
772P u2 now has 783 tub fitted with 772P u2 suspension and gearbox rear end a simple fitting to the tub
i questioned the fitting of the 772 pick up points fitting exactly to the 78 tub but Kim said it was a straight bolt on task no fiddling around but I now notice u said front wishbones where not used from 772P car:sfan:

what did u use then? 783 or make some up?

the front wishbones are square tube construction from 77 onwards not the traditional round tube from 71-76 or Atlantic cars
So Kim sells the car circa end of 1980? Via Jim Evans to the unknown Hillclimber
I think u did hint an area he lived in (guessing Leeds/ Yorkshire? Poss Bill Woods?) and that’s the last you know of the car until it pops up 3 years ago in Canada

Next point raised was the "other " 772P car that was in Scotland
I happened upon an advert for parts for sale from Stuart Lawson ( i bought the parts not for yr sake cos they were useful !! ) and asked many questions about his cars
he advises as follows

From memory, I bought my 772p in the winter of '79 from Tony Westwood........sold it at the end of '80 to a Terry Garvald from Jersey, to Hillclimb.That car had a Hart in it, I don't know the chassis number. Allen Brown said this is the car bult by peter Bloore and sold to Godfrey Compton- 1 assumes from a pile of parts from the March factory

I sold that car to buy a March 80A from Bernie Hunter in Atlantic trim.......ground effects car, that didn't appear to have much ground effect.
The I part exchanged the 80A for the 772....now that was the ex Dickson car (not the 'P' car) Dickson sold it to Jimmy Jack from Elvanton up in the north of Scotland.
He used it for a year or so then sold it to a guy in Gloucester can't remember his name....he was a director of Barclay's Bank and used it for Hillclimbs....he lived on a huge estate and had a whole stable of very expensive old racing cars, I went there and saw his impressive 'Castle'

I do have pictures of both of these cars, as well as one of George Mcmillans 772p......I will send you them I know have them I hope AB can post them for u guys

In the course of my discussions with Stuart ( sent to AB for comments) we established that
1 Norman Dickson raced both a March 772 ( wide tub car) and later the 772P U1 ( narrow tub car) both run by Colin Bennet Racing
2 Stuart raced the 772 car at Ingliston and he shared the car with Ted Dzierzec who raced the car at Knockhill in 1981
3 Jimmy Jack had the 772 car(1979/80) and George McMillan had the 772P U1 car later for racing/hillclimbs 81 - am i correct in saying J Jack also raced both these cars at 1 time ?

So we need to know who the man in Gloucester is so any ideas?
AB posted a comment that New Brighton speed event had S.Billington?? in a march 772

Now i think we have posted the relevent info to get back to where it was middinght sunday night but most of you guys where tucked up in bed and never got he notifications of new posts/info

S Billington had a 772P. Well remembered Drifty.

Jimmy Jack only had the 772, not the 772P and only had it until the end of 1979. The 772P went from Dickson to McMillan and he still had it in 1981.

Ok so now we have Billington in another 772P
could this be the Compton? westwood car when they owned it on a loan to the man ?
who is the Gloucester "castle" man

Jimmy Jack did have the wide body 772 ex dickson I think ,he bought my bmw engine half way through 1979 he offered me the car for the mallory race but we did not need it dickson used the p car in 1978 then kept it through 1979 run alongside his 792 for hire all from my workshop.

Fantastic stuff chaps. As Kim says, the Dickson 772P was occasionally run in 1979 AFX alongside the 792. Pascal Witmeur and Brancatelli ring bells as hirers on one-off drives I think.

As for the rich Gloucester Castle man, there were a number of March climbers/sprinters around that area at that time, eg Richard Fry, Tony Westwood, Ted Williams. Steve W will probably know.

Stuart Lawson's memory brings up the Westwood car. If it was sold to him, Lawson, at the end of 1979, the car Tony W used in 1980 FAt must have been a different one. He called it a 79B, have we surmised this was based on a Douglas & Gavin 782??

Just one more thing Dicksons P car was Hart powered rebuilt by hesketh I tested it several times to shake it down before hire
Kim

the 772P car had the bimmer in it when Dickson bought it
why did he change to the Hart?
car today has bdg in it

He bought it as a roller Collin Bennet fitted the hart engine it was better balanced with the lighter engine

if he bought as a roller he obviously took it direct from March factory as the bmw was a lease engine

who is the Gloucester "castle" man

Check out Post #34 on the March 772 thread for one suggestion. :cool:

Out of curiosity why do we have 772 thread AND 772P/778 thread and then seperate 782
surely they should all be either as 1x 772 & 772P/778 then782 or all in 1 thread as they now cross over each other:banghead:

So the Stuart Lawson car was 772#3 now believed to have gone to sweden and now driven by Christian Fischer in euro f2 now with BMW engine again
SW saidTony Brown appeared at Shelsley Walsh in 1981 with a March 80A/81A. The car had white sidepods, dark blue upper bodywork with white/red stripes.
so we can now "assume" Mr Brown had the ex Hunter car that Stuart traded to him for the 773#3 Dickson car

Out of curiosity why do we have 772 thread AND 772P/778 thread and then seperate 782
surely they should all be either as 1x 772 & 772P/778 then782 or all in 1 thread as they now cross over each other:banghead:

So the Stuart Lawson car was 772#3 now believed to have gone to sweden and now driven by Christian Fischer in euro f2 now with BMW engine again
SW saidTony Brown appeared at Shelsley Walsh in 1981 with a March 80A/81A. The car had white sidepods, dark blue upper bodywork with white/red stripes.
so we can now "assume" Mr Brown had the ex Hunter car that Stuart traded to him for the 773#3 Dickson car

It certainly looks like Hunter's old colour scheme. :photo:

stuart has confirmed tony brown is the man he dealt with over the 772/80A march cars

A picture of Stuart Lawson's 772P (http://www.photobox.co.uk/shared/photo.html?c_photo=164516)

Certainly looks like a genuine 'unmessed about' 772P.

this car is the third car built from parts by peter bloore
i think car is hilcimbing i have tel no to call and ask the man some questions

Fantastic stuff chaps. As Kim says, the Dickson 772P was occasionally run in 1979 AFX alongside the 792. Pascal Witmeur and Brancatelli ring bells as hirers on one-off drives I think.

As for the rich Gloucester Castle man, there were a number of March climbers/sprinters around that area at that time, eg Richard Fry, Tony Westwood, Ted Williams. Steve W will probably know.

Stuart Lawson's memory brings up the Westwood car. If it was sold to him, Lawson, at the end of 1979, the car Tony W used in 1980 FAt must have been a different one. He called it a 79B, have we surmised this was based on a Douglas & Gavin 782??

Tony Westwood was running in the BSC in a March-Hart 772P in 1979.:cool:

maybe the Westwood 79B car is the car that Lawson part ex to Tony Brown? on a loan?
where they from the same area

What? I don't think so. Westwood was from Wales but the 79B has no connection I can see to Lawson.

Hi, The 79b was not an old Crompton /Douglas & Gavin car. It was build from a 782 tub which had had a damaged front bulkhead and had been bought from Roy Lane. The "772p" was built from bits on what was probably an F3 tub but using square tubed front wishbones which were the same as 782 wishbones. This tub was re-riveted at Reynards who had a March F3 jig . Hope this helps.

Ok
1 The 79B car-where did the 782 tub come from ie was it an old circuit car tub lying idle or had a certain car with ID # crashed and had a replacement tub recently hence leftover tub for Roy to buy

2 the "772P" car are you refering to the "third" car?
so your saying it was a used 74/5/63 tub overhauled and had 782 wishbones added ( 772P had square tube bones as std item)

3 where are you in the scheme of things? mechanic car owner or a driver

Did we ever find out who "Old Formula 2" is?? Also, where did the de Dryver 778 come from/go to? Bored at work at the moment, as you may be able to tell...

Yes and no.

to which part

I'm going to double post this as it might be a 772 or a 772P:

Autosport 21 Apr 1983 p44: Basil Pitt "has acquired the ex-Alan Harper March 772P" for the 1600cc class.

There is a picture and although the nose looks 772P-ish, the sidepods look 79B-ish. Do we know about Alan Harper owning a 772 or 772P?

Steve - are you in contact with either gentleman?

I keep spotting things. Autosport 21 Apr 1983 p61 classified ads:

"March 772P rolling chassis including FG400 gearbox ... immaculate car, just rebuilt regardles of cost ... on latest M&H slicks £2,650" from an 0703 number which was Southampton area I believe. Pitt was "Hampshire-based" (p44 again) so maybe it's him.

Basil Is Still Around Last Had A Gould

I'm going to double post this as it might be a 772 or a 772P:

Autosport 21 Apr 1983 p44: Basil Pitt "has acquired the ex-Alan Harper March 772P" for the 1600cc class.

There is a picture and although the nose looks 772P-ish, the sidepods look 79B-ish. Do we know about Alan Harper owning a 772 or 772P?

Steve - are you in contact with either gentleman?

Basil is still doing the British Hillclimb Championship with a Gould-NME. I will try to "get in touch".

A rather interesting and illuminating aside about John Bowtell's March in the AS report of the Atlantic race at Mondello June 1980 [a British championship round]. It's described as the March 772P that Patsy McGarrity failed to make competitive... [The correspondent is AS's regular Irish reporter so would have recognised it as such.]

This would make it 772P-U2 as McGarrity doesn't drive another Atlantic March to the best of my knowledge...

Chris

But U2 was the car crashed by David Ward and rebuilt by Kim Mather on a 783 tub. I'd be impressed if the reporter could still recognise it after all that! And didn't John Bowtell already tell us where he got that '77P'?

But U2 was the car crashed by David Ward and rebuilt by Kim Mather on a 783 tub. I'd be impressed if the reporter could still recognise it after all that! And didn't John Bowtell already tell us where he got that '77P'?

Mather didn't have the car in 1980 though - and Bowtell could have told the reporter it had been Patsy's car.
Bowtell went through a variety of cars. There was a rather tatty dark blue March "74B" in 1977 ShellSport whch I think might well have been based on one of the "Salisbury tubs" (of which I hope to learn more from Howard Rose)

Chris

I spoke to John Bowtell about this car and story is told on "The March next door" (http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94662) on TNF. This was what I posted after talking to John.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
This is indeed John Bowtell's Atlantic March and John recognises the backdrop as being the back of his garage. This is how the car looked when he bought it and Bill was one of the friends who helped run it.

The car came from a garage in Salisbury but John can't recall exactly who it was and never knew the car's origins. I've seen adverts for cars from a Salisbury phone number so it may be possible to solve that one. John says it was a 1971 car with 1973 mods and he then modified it further as they ran it through the next few seasons. He sold it after the 1977 season and bought a "77P" rolling chassis from John Bright for 1978. He fitted this second March with a 2-litre BDX bought from Ray Mallock and ran it in libre in 1978 and 1979 before retiring. He sold the car in early 1980 and will try to remember where it went.

David - John is still friends with Bill and is going to mention this to him.

My thanks to Mr and Mrs Bowtell for their time this morning.

Allen I suspect John's '77P' may have been more 773 than 772P.

Allen

"He fitted this second March with a 2-litre BDX bought from Ray Mallock and ran it in libre in 1978 and 1979 before retiring. He sold the car in early 1980 and will try to remember where it went."

If he sold the car in early 1980, what did he do a full season of Atlantic with?
If it had a two litre BDX in it, what was it doing in the Atlantic championship?

Bowtell doesn't appear 79 Atlantic, suggesting that the 2.0 BDX bit is right. But did he either buy another engine or perhaps another car for a stab at the championship in 1980? He appears as late as 28 Sept 1980 [the penultimate round] finishing 4th [his best ever result AFAIK] which he certainly ought to remember

Chris

I'm pretty sure the car Bowtell ran in Libre in 79 was the same one he used for FAt in 80. Certainly looked very similar. I think he may mean he siold the car in "... early 81..." not early 80.

And by mid-79, as we know, Kim's 772P was very different to how it first appeared...

salisbury telephone number might be roger orgee he is from that neck of the woods
hook the number out and i will ask him for confirmation
is it time to list all the cars chassi numbers and name every owner since Noah was a boy

salisbury telephone number might be roger orgee he is from that neck of the woods
hook the number out and i will ask him for confirmation
is it time to list all the cars chassi numbers and name every owner since Noah was a boy

Chris

I think John was a year out in his recollections.

Allen

I am new to the forum but have been following both the 772 and 782 threads with some interest,prior to joining.
I did send an email message to driftwood in December but did not get a reply, so have decided to join the thread.My tale is fairly involved but hopefully it will add interest and throw some light on my chassis,which has no chassis plate number.The car is now with me in Australia, after relocating from South Africa.I have not till now actively pursued its history, so hopefully with the help and knowledge of yourself and fellow participants somehow we will eventually identify the car.
In 1999 I purchased a March 782 from a gentleman in Cumbria, who had it in his garage for approx. 13 years.
It has a Swindon BDD fitted as he said the BMW unit was removed prior to his purchase of the car.On recommendation of Marcus Pye, I had Simon Hadfield collect and restore the car.
When Simon started the restoration(which was a strip and rebuild including new 782 bodywork from original moulds,),he said it appeared to be a very original car( that it had the original March wiring looms,correct dash panel and instruments, original steering wheel,oxygen bottle with piping(still with some oxygen in after all the years),correct 782 suspension,matching numbered roll bar mounting blocks, etc.etc.
However on removing the steering wheel ( I wanted to fit the quick release steering hub), they found an inscription on the face of the original hub - "772 U2 Bruno"
On my further scrutiny the following was found:
772 U2 on the rear suspension
782 -7 - 001 on the front hub/disc
- 004 on left rear and -005 on right rear upright hub carriers for the half shafts.
I then wrote to Hewland to get a copy of the original invoice for the FT 200 gearbox number 1147.This gearbox was invoiced and delivered to the March factory on the 21 February 1978, on March order no. 42654.
Well i hope that this will start a whole new interesting discussion as I would dearly like to find out the history of my car.
I have the original photographs of the car taken when it was collected and delivered to Simon Hadfield as well as the original bits and pieces that he replaced where necessary(eg, electronic fire extinguisher,wiring,Lucas spark box, etc.)
Looking forward to finding the answers.

Kind regards

Roy Moss

Roy Out of interest who did you buy the car from in Cumbria? I have been trying to track that car down for ages!! I was told it was owned by a butcher?

I am new to the forum but have been following both the 772 and 782 threads with some interest,prior to joining.
I did send an email message to driftwood in December but did not get a reply, so have decided to join the thread.My tale is fairly involved but hopefully it will add interest and throw some light on my chassis,which has no chassis plate number.The car is now with me in Australia, after relocating from South Africa.I have not till now actively pursued its history, so hopefully with the help and knowledge of yourself and fellow participants somehow we will eventually identify the car.
In 1999 I purchased a March 782 from a gentleman in Cumbria, who had it in his garage for approx. 13 years.
It has a Swindon BDD fitted as he said the BMW unit was removed prior to his purchase of the car.On recommendation of Marcus Pye, I had Simon Hadfield collect and restore the car.
When Simon started the restoration(which was a strip and rebuild including new 782 bodywork from original moulds,),he said it appeared to be a very original car( that it had the original March wiring looms,correct dash panel and instruments, original steering wheel,oxygen bottle with piping(still with some oxygen in after all the years),correct 782 suspension,matching numbered roll bar mounting blocks, etc.etc.
However on removing the steering wheel ( I wanted to fit the quick release steering hub), they found an inscription on the face of the original hub - "772 U2 Bruno"
On my further scrutiny the following was found:
772 U2 on the rear suspension
782 -7 - 001 on the front hub/disc
- 004 on left rear and -005 on right rear upright hub carriers for the half shafts.
I then wrote to Hewland to get a copy of the original invoice for the FT 200 gearbox number 1147.This gearbox was invoiced and delivered to the March factory on the 21 February 1978, on March order no. 42654.
Well i hope that this will start a whole new interesting discussion as I would dearly like to find out the history of my car.
I have the original photographs of the car taken when it was collected and delivered to Simon Hadfield as well as the original bits and pieces that he replaced where necessary(eg, electronic fire extinguisher,wiring,Lucas spark box, etc.)
Looking forward to finding the answers.

Kind regards

Roy Moss

Roy, just a couple of questions:

1) Who was the mystery owner in Cumbria?
2) Can you post some of the photos of the car when collected?
3) What was the car used for? (i.e. raced, sprinted &/or hillclimbed)
4) Did you get any past history with the car? (i.e. who did the mystery buyer purchase the car from)

It may be a car that I have been searching for. If it is I have some photos of it in period.

:photo:

Sorry Roy I dont recall your message i will check my PM box nowjust looked nowt form you lots on opther subjects in my PM box
please resend your mail to me and I will gladly reply
are you the roy moss from ZA?
your name came up in conversation on saturday i had tommy dunn look at a march 832 i have in my shed
he had the 792 from sheckter that you later raced

james
are you thinking of andrew peach with "782" car ( the 783 bdg hillclimb car) he is butcher or fruit n veg man but he bought his car in 2002? now sold to meyrick

In 1999 I purchased a March 782 from a gentleman in Cumbria, who had it in his garage for approx. 13 years.so this makes it circa 1986 that a march with bmw m12 was sold as a roller -anyone seen car for sale in AS ads?
It has a Swindon BDD fitted as he said the BMW unit was removed prior to his purchase of the car.makes the car FA spec maybe raced in Libre or sprints/hillclimbs?
On my further scrutiny the following was found:
772 U2 on the rear suspension rear uprights same from 71 to 78 car possibly spare parts in factory fitted to the car
782 -7 - 001 on the front hub/discchassis 7 was a works car but this may be the standard factory part number as you state 004 005 on the hubs
- 004 on left rear and -005 on right rear upright hub carriers for the half shafts.
I then wrote to Hewland to get a copy of the original invoice for the FT 200 gearbox number 1147.This gearbox was invoiced and delivered to the March factory on the 21 February 1978, on March order no. 42654.this assist in confirming its a factory derived car not a bitsa special that some dealer/mechanic has cobbled together from various spare parts he has sourced is there by any chance 2 pop rivet holes on front bulkhead where the plate would sit?

I will amend my last comment based on a phone conversation i happened to have
I then wrote to Hewland to get a copy of the original invoice for the FT 200 gearbox number 1147.This gearbox was invoiced and delivered to the March factory on the 21 February 1978, on March order no. 42654.
this assist in confirming its a factory derived car not a bitsa special that some dealer/mechanic has cobbled together from various spare parts he has sourced is there by any chance 2 pop rivet holes on front bulkhead where the plate would sit? it appears this car may very well have been built from parts out of the factory that may have been through Compton/Waring & Gillows hands- its not 100% confirmed but i await further info in due course

In 1999 I purchased a March 782 from a gentleman in Cumbria, who had it in his garage for approx. 13 years.so this makes it circa 1986 that a march with bmw m12 was sold as a roller -anyone seen car for sale in AS ads?
It has a Swindon BDD fitted as he said the BMW unit was removed prior to his purchase of the car.makes the car FA spec maybe raced in Libre or sprints/hillclimbs?
On my further scrutiny the following was found:
772 U2 on the rear suspension rear uprights same from 71 to 78 car possibly spare parts in factory fitted to the car
782 -7 - 001 on the front hub/discchassis 7 was a works car but this may be the standard factory part number as you state 004 005 on the hubs
- 004 on left rear and -005 on right rear upright hub carriers for the half shafts.
I then wrote to Hewland to get a copy of the original invoice for the FT 200 gearbox number 1147.This gearbox was invoiced and delivered to the March factory on the 21 February 1978, on March order no. 42654.this assist in confirming its a factory derived car not a bitsa special that some dealer/mechanic has cobbled together from various spare parts he has sourced is there by any chance 2 pop rivet holes on front bulkhead where the plate would sit?

If it is the car that I think it is then the 1.6 litre engine was slotted in to do hillclimbing as at the time the class structure allowed Up to 600cc, 601 to 1100cc, 1101 to 1600cc and then Over 1600cc. I doubt it was ever raced in Atlantic.

Any names of previous owners chaps, all very secretive this isn't it?

Not sure Andrew Peach is from Cumbria Driftwood but could be wrong. My dad was told by an insurance broker in early 90's that there was a butcher in Penrith who owned a 782. Only living 30 miles away my dad tracked him down and phoned him up. He wanted 25K for it and said it had an atlantic BDA in it and no chassis number/plate. I've been trying to locate the guy for a while as my dad threw away his number and has forgotten his name. Sounds like this is the car.

Wasn't Peach from near Derby? I recall he had a Palliser FF in the mid-70s.

Driftwood,yes I am the guy from ZA.
If you do happen to speak with Tommy Dunn,give him my best wishes.
I am looking for another 792 (terrible car to drive without the skirts,but I loved the look of the car,if you can believe it).
I am also on the lookout for an 802 or 812.
I want to have these cars as memories of cars I drove at various times as well as to fiddle with in my spare time.
Roy

Roy, just a couple of questions:

1) Who was the mystery owner in Cumbria?
2) Can you post some of the photos of the car when collected?
3) What was the car used for? (i.e. raced, sprinted &/or hillclimbed)
4) Did you get any past history with the car? (i.e. who did the mystery buyer purchase the car from)

It may be a car that I have been searching for. If it is I have some photos of it in period.

:photo:
Steve and James
There is no mystery at all as I bought the car from a Colin Birbeck in Penrith (James this will answer your query)
He said he thinks he aquired the car from a Phil Bennet, but the plan to race it in FA in 1981/2 (with I think it was 79B bodywork which was with the car) but this did not happen. The Swindon engine number stamped on the head is FA 189.Hence the car having been stored all the years.
Steve if you do have period photos could you load them.
I have photos of the car at Simon Hadields workshop but will have to ask my son for some help in getting them onto this system as I am afraid to say I am not the worlds most computer savvy person.
Roy


I will load photos with comments

Steve and James
There is no mystery at all as I bought the car from a Colin Birbeck in Penrith (James this will answer your query)
He said he thinks he aquired the car from a Phil Bennet, but the plan to race it in FA in 1981/2 (with I think it was 79B bodywork which was with the car) but this did not happen. The Swindon engine number stamped on the head is FA 189.Hence the car having been stored all the years.
Steve if you do have period photos could you load them.
I have photos of the car at Simon Hadields workshop but will have to ask my son for some help in getting them onto this system as I am afraid to say I am not the worlds most computer savvy person.
Roy

I will load photos with comments

The driver I thought involved was Martin Brockhouse. I will have to do a bit of a root around to see if I have photos of either Birbeck or Bennet in a March.

:Shrug:

Didn't Colin Birbeck so some Scottish/Northern Libre in the late 70s. OTOH his car was described as a '742'.

Roy
i will pass on yr wishes
where is the old 792 car now?
i will make enquiry on 802 812 cars i know of just sold 822 roller

Phil Bennett came from Leeds. He drove the Andy Barton March 782 in a libre at Croft in October 1981 when it had been fitted with a BDA engine and with 79B sidepods. Maybe Bennett planned to buy it and use it in Atlantic. I have no record of Barton or his team racing this car again after this point.

The assortment of 772/P/782 parts on Roy's car would be consistent with a well-used ex-Barton libre car.

Dan has previously identified Barton's 782 as 782-13 but I don't have any note as to how we established that.

Allen

Roy
i will pass on yr wishes
where is the old 792 car now?
i will make enquiry on 802 812 cars i know of just sold 822 roller
Thanks.
The 792 was stripped and built into a Tiga sports car and the tub was sold off overseas.
I still have a number of spares for the 792 which includes suspension (a complete unused front corner and rear corner inclusive of uprights ,remembering that the corners both front and rear were interchangable). This was part of a spares package from the Scheckter days still with original March packaging even after all these years.
Hope you can locate a 792 as they were very unloved cars but someone might have one lying under a pile of junk.
Regards
Roy

Phil Bennett came from Leeds. He drove the Andy Barton March 782 in a libre at Croft in October 1981 when it had been fitted with a BDA engine and with 79B sidepods. Maybe Bennett planned to buy it and use it in Atlantic. I have no record of Barton or his team racing this car again after this point.

The assortment of 772/P/782 parts on Roy's car would be consistent with a well-used ex-Barton libre car.

Dan has previously identified Barton's 782 as 782-13 but I don't have any note as to how we established that.

Allen
Dear Allen,

Sounds very much like my car could well be the ex-Barton 782.
On going through my sets of wheels that came with car, there was a brand new set of Speedline rims with new still stickered M+H tyres.Did they possibly use M+H tyres in 1981?
There are also the usual March magnesium rims as well.
I hope I am not giving everyone useless info and if so please tell me,but anything that could help document the chassis or that comes to mind that could help finally identify the car I will send in.
Many thanks for your help and info. so far.
Regards
Roy

Roy

Andy Barton's son posts here sometimes. If you PM him he may be able to get his father to help you ID the car.

Allen

Allen, Barton's 782 was described in an AS early 79 as being built around an ex-Hoffman tub that Ingo had seriously damaged in the late 78 Temporada.

Did Ian Sheckter have a 792? I know he had a 79B, but when did he use a 792, and if so where was it from?

Thanks Dan. So it's effectively a bitza - unless that Hoffman car never raced again after that accident in which case Barton's car could be said to inherit its identity.

The Hoffmann 782 was never identified as racing again. I've always assumed that the Barton car was indeed that car rebuilt.

Dan: regarding Scheckter's cars in 79. March built four 79As [Atlantic versions of the F2 car] along with the 79B which wasn't a ground effect car but an evolution of the 78B. Two 79As went to America but were only ever tested, or used rarely in practice for races by the Shierson team. One stayed in UK as a development model and one [probably chassis 1] went to Scheckter. If the 792 sucked, the 79A sucked rockets because the smaller BDA engine couldn't drag the thing along. Despite this Scheckter was competitive with Klomfass and van Rooyen with real 79Bs.
I've never quite worked out if Scheckter got a 79B later in the season or did something to the 79A to make it work.

PS: Dan, did you get my email about 1980 Mallory programme and the libre March 722

Chris

No I didn't Chris.

Re the 79 Marches, I'm sure I've seen a pic somewhere of Ian S with a normal 79B. I recall the 79A, wasn't there a similar concept F3 the, 79C. Serra tested it that year IIRC, it wasn't used for 'political' reasons, or thats what March said at the time...

I see i have a lot of catching up to do !!
comments
1 Sheckter had the 792 car from new ( T Dunne told me this)
2 79A cars november 1978 the car debuts in ZA 3 cars present Sheckter wins (Lexington) Klomfass (texaco) T van Rooyen ( Gunston)
the cars are reffered to as 79B in the mag article i am reciting from
3 M & H tyres where around in UK club races circa 1978 through to the very early 80`s
4 Andy Barton march 782/B off the top o my head someone has stated the car was dinged either here or on the Andy B thread ( poss the son has provided info? ) and was rebuilt with various parts from different cars
I dont think AB used BMW m12 motors

Roy ive tried to mail you directly

I see i have a lot of catching up to do !!
comments
1 Sheckter had the 792 car from new ( T Dunne told me this)
2 79A cars november 1978 the car debuts in ZA 3 cars present Sheckter wins (Lexington) Klomfass (texaco) T van Rooyen ( Gunston)
the cars are reffered to as 79B in the mag article i am reciting from
3 M & H tyres where around in UK club races circa 1978 through to the very early 80`s
4 Andy Barton march 782/B off the top o my head someone has stated the car was dinged either here or on the Andy B thread ( poss the son has provided info? ) and was rebuilt with various parts from different cars
I dont think AB used BMW m12 motors

Roy ive tried to mail you directly
The 792 of Scheckter was a proper Formula 2 spec car as I drove it for a while.The car had both the sliding skirt and fixed skirt sidepods, and was ultimately used in fixed skirt mode.(I think I stiil have the sliding skirts and the side pod/wing profile end-plates packed somewhere in crates).
There were only two 79B's that came to ZA , Klomfass with Texan cigarette sponsorship and the Van Rooyen car with Gunston cig. backing.
The 792 winning the Championship was more down to Ian's driving talent as well as the legendary engineering of team chief Ken Howes.
Thanks, email received and replied to.

roy

I will contact Andy Barton and hopefully we can throw more light on my chassis and hopefully start on the road of getting an approved chassis number and plate if at all possible.

To reiterate for Drifty's benefit:
79A and 79B completely different cars. 79B a development of the 78B Atlantic; 79A a beast based on the F2 car, full ground effect Atlantic.
Chassis 79A-1 to Scheckter [and from what Roy says above and from photos later in the season modified to be as near as possible to late season 79B spec with full width nose and F3 skirted side pods]
79A-2 Jeff Wood, never raced
79A-3 probably kept by March as development car and for sale as 79A in Autosport October 79
79A-4 Shierson, never raced, sold in near original condition on race-cars.com a few years back.

Holmes and Wood both used 79As in practice at Long Beach 1979 but set times in and raced conventional 79Bs. Holmes in his Sports Car column talks about testing the ground effect car later in the season, but clearly there was a problem.

The 78B started out with conventional side pods like those on the 78B but people quickly started using the smaller, slanted top F3 pod with skirts, and then put them onto 78Bs as well.

Chris

The 78B started out with conventional side pods like those on the 78B but people quickly started using the smaller, slanted top F3 pod with skirts, and then put them onto 78Bs as well.Thanks for the education Chris - but I don't quite understand this last sentence. Did you mean 79Bs as well?

To reiterate for Drifty's benefit:is yous sayin im fick?!
The 78B started out with conventional side pods like those on the 78B but people quickly started using the smaller, slanted top F3 pod with skirts, and then put them onto 78Bs as well he means the 79B started out with 78b pods later went to wedge shape pods from F3 car with skirts

78 79A B/2 cars
78b is a car with a tub as used on 783 782 Vee cars
782 & B has same width wheels wishbones uprights Ft200 gbox rear wing BUT different side pods -782 has 2 piece pod the B has 1 piece and rear discs F3 non vented and 2 pot calipres

79B car uses 782/3 /B tub but is different from rear of tub to the 78B car
different engine frames rear rocker suspension and ( i think) uprights and has wedge sidepods and wide shovel " March" nose

792 is a different tub & suspension bodywork is ground effect with skirts narrow nose & small wings
so the 79A car would also use the 792 tub suspension body kit BUT run with BDD motor so a different engine frame is used
Did the car have 4 pot rear calipres and vented discs like the F2 car has

I would imagine the 79B car was a bit lighter than the 79A car but the 79A was relying on being faster due to GE body kit but the 792 was a poor car needing its skirts to be effective due to porpoising at high speed GE was in its infancy and info was not freely available

To reiterate for Drifty's benefit:is yous sayin im fick?!
The 78B started out with conventional side pods like those on the 78B but people quickly started using the smaller, slanted top F3 pod with skirts, and then put them onto 78Bs as well he means the 79B started out with 78b pods later went to wedge shape pods from F3 car with skirts

78 79A B/2 cars
78b is a car with a tub as used on 783 782 Vee cars
782 & B has same width wheels wishbones uprights Ft200 gbox rear wing BUT different side pods -782 has 2 piece pod the B has 1 piece and rear discs F3 non vented and 2 pot calipres

79B car uses 782/3 /B tub but is different from rear of tub to the 78B car
different engine frames rear rocker suspension and ( i think) uprights and has wedge sidepods and wide shovel " March" nose

792 is a different tub & suspension bodywork is ground effect with skirts narrow nose & small wings
so the 79A car would also use the 792 tub suspension body kit BUT run with BDD motor so a different engine frame is used
Did the car have 4 pot rear calipres and vented discs like the F2 car has

I would imagine the 79B car was a bit lighter than the 79A car but the 79A was relying on being faster due to GE body kit but the 792 was a poor car needing its skirts to be effective due to porpoising at high speed GE was in its infancy and info was not freely available

Is it me or is there an echo on this forum? :evillaff:

Drifty is right about what I meant. The 79B had similar flat top pods to the 78B. These were quickly switched for 793 development sloping pods with a side panel to create a limited venturi effect between the side of the tub and the panel.
Quite a few people in the US then started putting these onto 78Bs in SCCA racing, making it harder to tell between 78 and 79Bs from the outside.

Drifty is also right, I think, about the tub differences. 79A probably used 792 tub but I don't think there was an engine frame on the 792, didn't it use the engine as a stressed member? Don't know if the brakes were different, but guess that they might have been and the uprights too.

Chris

Driftwood,Allen,Steve
Herewith photos of car being collected,Simon inspecting car at his workshop,cockpit shot, and finally Simon testing car at Mallory post rebuild.
Note 79 B bodywork and sidepods with fixed rubber skirt which car had fitted when collected.The car also had three different spec 782 noses ( F/AT and 2 x F2)
Does anyone have Andy Barton contact details for me so that I may discuss the possibility of this car originating from him.I did go to the Andy Barton thread and found the comments re the 782 interesting.My car has a number of works numbers ( 772 U2/Bruno steering/782-07 ) so it might be that the car was built from ex - works parts as stated by Andy.However as the Barton thread is old I do not know if he will respond to this route of enquiry,hence the request to contact him direct.
Roy

u will find Andys son on line email him directly to get something going
also due to yr distance send list of info and i can call him
i did speak to him 2 yrs ago as he had some old parts to sell on ebay of all places

Thought it was about time we had a period phot in the thread.

http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sctm/v217/125/90/826713559/n826713559_395465_6742.jpg
Eddie Cheever - March 782 - Thruxton Easter Monday

:photo:

Yummy yummy chassis 14 i believe this should really be on the 782 thread

Yummy yummy chassis 14 i believe this should really be on the 782 thread

OOOOOOOOOOOOPS!

:ill:

I am following the 782 threads with some interest, and in particular the works cars. In the late 78 Temporada the damaged 782 were not perhaps those of Giacomelli and Surer? When Ingo damaged its? Before or after the Buenos Aires winning race?

if you read the 782 thread in detail you will see that we have covered most of the cars
MARCH TEAM CARS
winklehock#9 restored now in usa collection jackomally car went to japan was crashed repaired surer car is # 7 around somewhere

More on the ex-Surer/McGarrity/Mather 772P-U2.

A "March" is advertised by Bobby Howlings in Autosport 18 Nov 1982 said to be ex-Surer and rebuilt by John Travis. This would imply that Travis's 1980/81 "772P" libre car was Mather's 783-tubbed, 79B-podded "772P" from 1979 that is now said to be in Canada.

Allen

Makes sense to me, Allen.

Guys i have dug out the email info that Jim Keller sent to me this time last year about the car so it does tie in date wise with the AS advert- so it looks like another mystery solved?

When Bob bought the car, it was in Vancouver, Bob purchased the car from a fellow (Mark ????) who bought the car from Gord and Ross Bently.

The Bently’s purchased the car from someone (the name escaped me) in Seattle in the early 1980’s as a roller. They then converted it to a sports race car with Mazda power and use the car for endurance racing from about 1985 to 1991.

When the man bought the car from the Bently’s, he intended to use it for enduro’s as well but two things happened, 1) Westwood, the local race track, closed, and 2) When he dismantled the car for rebuild he found the chassis tag, he then did some research and realised what he had. Mark then started restoration but realized he was in way over his head. He lost interest and, through word of mouth, put the car on the market, that’s when Bob bought it.

I believe that Bob has the name of the man from Seattle that brought the car from the UK in the early 1980’s. (I can’t remember) I’ll ask Bob and let you know.

As I understand things, the car went from March to McGarrity, then to Kim Mather, then to ??????.

The guy who had the car in Seattle said he bought it from someone named David ??? but he did not recall the last name. He also wasn’t positive on the year but he thinks it was either 1980 or 1981.



The car now has the narrow 742 style tub but it is not the way it was when the Bently boy’s bought it. Also is not fully sloped like a 712, it’s more like a 732. I’ll send a picture. I think Bob has a picture of the car at Donnington with the bodywork off and I believe that the front top panel looked the same but it’s been quite a while since I looked through the pictures so don’t quote me on this yet.



When the Bently’s received the car it had some sort of squared off sidepods scabbed onto it, sort of like a 78B or 79B but not exactly. It looks like they used the center section from the 772P and added the square sides. The car still had the 772P castings at the front of where the curved side panel would have been but there was an adaptor plate riveted to it to adapt to the squared sides of the “updated” tub.

The car also has a 3/16” thick one piece front bulkhead, not a formed sheet one like a 78B or 79B.

Drifty, I wonder whether the 'David' may be David Ward, Kim's mate, who raced the car in some Libre here in 79, in between Kim's Aurora races. It was David in fact who wrote it off in mid-year, prompting the rebuild around the new '783' tub.

The problem, now I think about it, is that the Travis car looked like a genuine and very smart 772P when he used it in Libre 80-81. Kim's car by the end of 79, did NOT look like this, to be frank it was a bit of a mess! I've asked Kim whether he can remember if John T did have the car after him.

If the Travis car was NOT Kim's, what was its history?

i may be on the wrong track here ( someone will soon correct me) but where does the name david kerr come into March F2 car (772) saga or was that the name of a man involved in the 783 cum 782 chris drewitt hillclimb car now as a 782 hart HSCC F2 car

To be honest Dan i think we need a set of car photos with dates on them some "bobble hatters" with circuit observations of the cars and race results PLUS running the whole lot under Kims nose and then John Travis nose- i know JT was in USA doing Lola Indycar stuff many moons ago
where is he today?
i only recall JT with the 792 replica and the 75S thundersports cars

Kim just told me that Jim Evans dealt with the sale of his later cars. Does this help us??

I think that Bob Bentley telling us the name of the guy in Seattle who first had the car from the UK would be a big step forward.

Chris

Weren't there some really good pictures of the Travis 772P in 'the other place'?

Alan Cox published one. I'm sure he won't mind me cross-posting onto here:

http://snap33.photobox.co.uk/26320254bb1a2c7d6aaa218b9122f6623bac1266d0e684c4e1a8625f.jpg

I would agree with Dan - that's a standard narrow-tub March, not a 783/79B. So does this mean that Travis got the 772P tub and bits and repaired/rebuilt that entity while Kim's 783/79B has to be regarded as a separate entity?

But does that actually look like a 772P? Isn't that earlier than 1977?

Narrow tub car; 773 or 77B nose, 742 sidepods I'd say.
Could be a bitsa, narrow tub and spares or could be a real 772P or 77B
Might be worth comparing with the photo Alan Cox published of 772P-U2 in the Irish race at Donington
http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.phps=&threadid=43951&perpage=40&display=&pagenumber=14
[I just did and the nose is the same]
However, since I came across that reference, by an Irish reporter, to John Bowtell's car in 1980 as 'ex McGarrity', I've had my doubts about the later iterations of Kim Mather's 772P...
The other thing the Travis car could be is 77B-15 the ex De Dryver F2 car from 1977.

Chris

John Bowtell told us where his two cars were from didn't he? And I have a reference in Echappement (albeit later contradicted) to the De Dryver car going into French hillclimbs.

I don't recall the Bowtell '77B' ever being referred to as the ex-de Dryver/Gerard car. Didn't we see some while ago that he got the tub from John Bright, ie it was really a 773, which he modified for Libre/FAt?

Was the de Dryver car definitely a 77B, Chris, I admit it looked like one?

Yes Dan it was a real 77B, I now have two period chassis plate observations.

I agree that Bowtell said he got a tub from Bright [773 and 77B had the same tub; all the works records I've seen for 76 and 77B have F3 tub numbers]
Bright's 773 was chassis 13 [ex Cornelsen-Filho] initially built on AM773-28 though I doubt that was still in it by 1979. Question is, Bright's 773 disappears after 1979 F3 season. Did he sell the whole car to Bowtell or just one of the old tubs?

Chris

Chris, OTOH John B had at least 2 separate 773s, didn't he wreck one early into 78, then replace it?

Re the de Dryver car, I saw it at a Feb 77 Mallory Sat am 'open-test' day, the week before the opening F2 race at Silverstone. I'm sure I noted the plate as stating '778', tho' I guess that may have been the way they looked in those days. I recall he kept stalling it on the way from the paddock to the pits! The de Villota Lyncar 006 and Trimmer TS19 were both also out that morning, amongst sundry FFs and Spec Saloons etc. Good days!

It was reported as '778' and on one occasion, IIRC, 778-15. But didn't you once tell me that 77B-15 went to the US Chris?

Indeed I did say that 77B-15 went to the USA - Mike Rocke told me that this was his car [except I then noticed that he ran race number 15...]

Have Motoring News and Autosprint noting de Dryver car as 77B-15 in print, and Adam in programme notes from Donington.

However, it wouldn't be above March to sell two cars with the same plate.
We make a distinction between 732s [Euro F2] and 73B [Atlantic]
For American customers March made no such distinction.
732-10 is well documented in Europe, however, James King then produced paperwork and plate for 732-10 which was his 73B. There were two cars at the same time, with same plate, in different continents. There seem to have been a number of 732s so labelled, and I believe there to be a 742-14 which was an American Atlantic [74Bs stop at 13] There is, however, no 73B-10.
So two 77B-15s, why not?

There's a prospect to bring a gleam to a restorer's eye!

Chris

At the Gold Cup yesterday, I had a good chat with, amongst others, John Holmes. He's sure he has the ex-Dickson, hence ex-Bruno/Mass/Neve, 772P. Says he bought it from John Travis in 1981, which I think is right time-wise.
He says Norman Dickson himself has seen it, and confirms its definitely the same car he had in 78.

So it seems the car, -U1, we think, went from the works to Dickson, then to Scot Libre (MacMillan/Lawson I can't recall now??), then to Travis then to John. It looks very well, John was impressed I recalled it had a Rover V8 at one point(!), though now has a BDG. However, he assures me the plate says '772P-2', with no "U" attached.

As an aside, I also had a nice talk with Bo Warmenius. His car is noted as a 772, which he accepts it is not. It looks like, and he confirms is, a 77B, imported from the States. It also now has a BDG installed, much like the de Dryver '778' then, thought obviously not that car.

Kim just told me that Jim Evans dealt with the sale of his later cars. Does this help us??

I also spoke to Jim E yesterday, he said he did NOT sell this particular ex-Kim car. His son Richard was superb in the Derek Bell by the way, in the ex-Bancroft/Sidgwick B40. Both v friendly chaps.

Bo warminus car to be a true 772 car will need the wide tub 77B is narrow tub as is 772P
i assume he has fitted wide pods to his car or is he running at a 772P

At the Gold Cup yesterday, I had a good chat with, amongst others, John Holmes. He's sure he has the ex-Dickson, hence ex-Bruno/Mass/Neve, 772P. Says he bought it from John Travis in 1981, which I think is right time-wise.
He says Norman Dickson himself has seen it, and confirms its definitely the same car he had in 78.

So it seems the car, -U1, we think, went from the works to Dickson, then to Scot Libre (MacMillan/Lawson I can't recall now??), then to Travis then to John. It looks very well, John was impressed I recalled it had a Rover V8 at one point(!), though now has a BDG. However, he assures me the plate says '772P-2', with no "U" attached. Really?!? The Travis car was said by Howlings to be ex-Surer, i.e. the other 772P, the ex-Surer/McGarrity/Mather 772P-U2. Dickson's car was U1.

Travis raced his car in 1980 and 1981, at the same time that George McMillan was still racing the ex-Dickson U1.

Holmes may well have the ex-Travis car but if it's also ex-Dickson, we have a problem. The plate is obviously wrong if it doesn't have a U in it - there are many, many contemporary sightings of the U1 and U2 plates.

Firstly, can he establish that it's definitely the ex-Travis car? The last we have on that is when Howlings has it in 1982.

i have said many times before that John ha sthe U1 car ex Dickenson and HE told me that 3 years ago at Brands John is not going Ga ga yet but as for Dan i cannot vouch for him! U2 is the car that is in canada history is documented earlier
can we have some form of punishment for folk giving wrong data?
what should it be beer or curry or a damn good thrashing?

If Bo Warminius' car is a 77B not a real 772 it should have a 773 tub, as that's what the Atlantics were built on.
Any observation of plate, any history?
I know that the de Dryver car was built on an Atlantic, but I think it's a bit of a shame when people do this out of period.

Chris

Travis' car was NOT, I'm sure, the ex-Kim etc 772P-U2. Makes much