Stuart Hill 2 Sep 2006, 01:25 I came across an interesting scenario the other week-end and was wondering what the rest of you thought...??
Event: National Hillclimb ( A Licenses req'd)
Car: Locaterfield (Westfield/Lotus 7/ Caterham etc)
the car in question arrived for a run and was noticed to have a 'plumbed-in' fire-extinguisher system on board. One of the startline marshals noticed that the safety pin was still in place on the bottle and so asked the question.......
"is this legal"??
the response from the Clerks was...
"a functional extinguisher is not a Blue Book regulation".
(these are the words that were remembered but possibly not a direct quote.)
so my questions are.........
1) are "plumbed-in" systems supposed to be functional? (ie pin OUT)
2) if they are "optional extras" does it mean that they need not work?
3) why would anyone bother fitting such a system and yet run with it inoperable?
4) was this car maybe used in another form of motorsport that does require such a system? (if so, which one as I don't know but would like to)
IMHO If you don't have/ are not required to have one, then fine. but.......
if you fit one, surely it should be "live" during your runs. Otherwise, what's the point???
Odd post!
I can't get further than wondering why the clerk was involved, and why the marshal didn't just ask the driver "would you like me to take the pin out ?":Shrug:
Stuart Hill 2 Sep 2006, 03:18 Odd post!
I can't get further than wondering why the clerk was involved, and why the marshal didn't just ask the driver "would you like me to take the pin out ?":Shrug:
sorry, maybe I didn't explain the original situation correctly.
I was trying not to be "venue" specific but now I need to be.
The marshal who spotted the problem was actually holding the car at the start-line (it's downhill) and didn't actually realise what he'd seen until the car left the line (and his hands).
The discussions with the Clerk took place immediately afterwards hence the no chance to "take the pin out".
falcemob 2 Sep 2006, 07:43 On every circuit race I have done, the pin is checked in the assembly area and quite often on the grid as the count down boards are shown. Once or twice I have forgotten to remove the pin and had to get a marshal to do it for me if I was fully strapped in so perhaps the driver on this occasion had a similar memory lapse.
Denis Bassom 2 Sep 2006, 10:49 so my questions are.........
1) are "plumbed-in" systems supposed to be functional? (ie pin OUT)
2) if they are "optional extras" does it mean that they need not work?
3) why would anyone bother fitting such a system and yet run with it inoperable?
4) was this car maybe used in another form of motorsport that does require such a system? (if so, which one as I don't know but would like to)
IMHO If you don't have/ are not required to have one, then fine. but.......
if you fit one, surely it should be "live" during your runs. Otherwise, what's the point???
1) I would guess only if they were compulsory. However I would put up a very strong argument that if it was in there it should work or some marshall may set it off expecting it put out a fire, find it didn't, have to go and get an extinguisher and do the job all over again. This would waste precious seconds on an emergency and could cost someones life!
2) Ditto.
3) Stupidity. I wasn't going to run one in my track day but after my race car caught fire without me even realising and then seeing how little marshalling is present at most track days I immediately ordered a bloody expensive Lifeline 360 system.
4) Circuit racing requires a plumbed in system now.
I agree with you, unless the guy really likes running around with a couple of kilos of ballast! They take seconds to remove.
The CoC was wrong, the marshal was right.
Reg Q 3 says that a fire extinguisher must be carried, not must be functional.
But Re Q 3.3.1 says that "All plumbed in systems must be in an 'ARMED' condition .... at all times while competing" (The reg's capitals).
And Reg Q 3.3.2 says that such non-functional systems should be reported to the CoC as an offence against Safety Regs.
I think that this reg is to prevent the insane from saving weight by not filling their fire bottle, or similar. Leaving the pin in is a very human error. In racing it seems to be a task for new/junior marshals to walk along the line in the assembly area and check the safety pins. I've been grateful for that reminder and for help in correcting the error, and never been reported!
John
I honestly don't care what the regs say - our car has an extinguisher fitted and whether I'm sprinting, testing or racing I always take the pin out. At the end of the day it's a safety enhancement, and I'd look mighty silly having a shunt in a sprint and not being able to use my (very expensive and very efficient) extinguisher.
If you've got it, use it - common sense I would have said?
phansa88 2 Sep 2006, 23:00 i wonder how many people at the end of a season disconect the pull cable and pull it a inch to see if it moves . start of this season mine didnt budge oil down the inner after a day manged to move it. its no good if a marshall cant move it because its not been oiled for a few years. like having the pin in
falcemob 3 Sep 2006, 00:16 I check mine before each race, I had to buy a new cable last week becuase one of the old ones had a frayed inner cable. I normaly end up with at least one new cable per season.
Denis Bassom 3 Sep 2006, 10:32 i wonder how many people at the end of a season disconect the pull cable and pull it a inch to see if it moves . start of this season mine didnt budge oil down the inner after a day manged to move it. its no good if a marshall cant move it because its not been oiled for a few years. like having the pin in
Been caught at least twice at the first race of the season, not really what you need with everything else going wrong as well!
Dave Brand 3 Sep 2006, 15:16 However I would put up a very strong argument that if it was in there it should work or some marshall may set it off expecting it put out a fire, find it didn't, have to go and get an extinguisher and do the job all over again. This would waste precious seconds on an emergency and could cost someones life!
'Bottle to every incident' is drummed into marshals at training days, reinforced at the IO briefing before the start of every day's activities. Personally, I 'd never rely on a plumbed-in system to put a fire out - it's very difficult to guess where the fire's going to occur & site the nozzles appropriately, & AFF is not, in my opinion, the world's most effective extinguishant. A marshal with a hand-held powder extinguisher can hit the fire at source be sure of putting it out quickly.
However.....
A driver in my series came off, got out and hopped over the armco.
A zealous marshal pulled the handle, and set off the extinguisher.
Next time he came off, he stayed in the car, hand on extinguisher, ready to fire it if necessary and to stop unnecessary use. Because he didn't get out, and seemed not to be moving, the ambulance was scrambled.
So yes, marshals use your own, if you must! If only to flush out the driver.
John
Dave Brand 3 Sep 2006, 18:19 A zealous marshal pulled the handle, and set off the extinguisher.
Probably mistook it for the electrical cut-off switch! Now let's see......'E'......does that mean 'extinguisher' or 'electrics'?:s
Al Weyman 4 Sep 2006, 10:51 I have left the pin in several times and the marshal always has politely taken it out fir me. Its a human error thing surely. On one car I have a place of the dash for the pin with a big sign PIN NOT HERE? DON'T RACE! I still forget sometime in the heat of the moment.
Recent meetings with 750MC we have always been checked on assembly that pin is out, cables have been checked working in scruitineering, and we have been warned not to replace the pin until out of park ferme, or disqualification may result!
James
schomosport 6 Sep 2006, 21:42 I was told many moons ago that 'pin in when it should be out' was likely to cost £100 if brought before the CoC.
Most assembly areas I've ever sat in usually have a couple of marshalls checking the basics - scrutineer sticker, helmet on and buckled, harness likewise and I guess they probably also look for an armed extinguisher when they can see it. (Not always easy in a single seater). And I'm sure all of them are far more interested in ensuring we go out with our safety equipmenmt in correct order than in looking for people to report.......
I have marshalled in assembly and on the bank and always checked the pin is out for the drivers' safety above all else. As for pulling the wrong handle, it's incredibly easy to go for the wrong one in the heat of the moment. I always double check, or get the driver to do it so it isn't my fault if it all goes wrong!
Probably mistook it for the electrical cut-off switch! Now let's see......'E'......does that mean 'extinguisher' or 'electrics'?:s
As it's such an easy mistake to make in the heat of the moment - a tip that's been mentioned before but is worth repeating.
Either on the extinguisher pull cable itself, or next to the E sticker, or anywhere clearly indicating the extinguisher cable - write the simple word "FIRE".
That'll stop any of us pulling the switch if we go for it erroneiously!
Al Weyman 9 Sep 2006, 11:57 just why do they mark it with a big 'E'? About time they changed that as it so easy to confuse with electrics. I have also put the words CUT OFF next to my kill switch.
Al,
It's a big red 'E' - how else do you spell 'extinguisher' - with a CIRCLE around it.
The Cut off sign is TRIANGULAR, with a lightning flash for those who are hard of reading.
How much clearer would you like it to be?
Big Smiley!
John
whatapalaver 9 Sep 2006, 15:52 I went drag racing once (a moment of weakness but I think I'm over it now), and noticed that the more powerful cars had a member of the support crew walk from the back to the front of the car and show the driver "something". On investigation it was the pin that holds the parchute in place, with a large ribbon attached, so it was easy to see in place, or missing.
I like the "pin missing - don't race" idea.
midgetman 9 Sep 2006, 22:33 >>>>>>>>Either on the extinguisher pull cable itself, or next to the E sticker, or anywhere clearly indicating the extinguisher cable - write the simple word "FIRE".
That'll stop any of us pulling the switch if we go for it erroneiously!
Such a good idea Asp that I have today done this. I realised that even I was confused so how could a marshal be expected to find out in the heat of the moment? Tnx 4 idea.
i think there is a rule in the blue book that says u dont have to have an extingusher for a sprint or hillclimb car.. its not illegal if it doesnt have one.
so i guess the CofC was right in a way.. the car wasnt illegal.
y the guy was running it in that case is beyond me.. cos they aint that light!!!
ive never ever forgot to take the pin out of ours.. the scinteers (sp sorry) always say dont forget to take it out. as well. cos they know u cant see it when the car is all together
no excuse i feel.. bad planning.. u should always do the same thing every time u get in... take the pin out should be one of um.. id hate to regret it one day!!! not to mention the ouch factor you wouldnt half get a telling off by CofC for it!!
i think there is a rule in the blue book that says u dont have to have an extingusher for a sprint or hillclimb car.. its not illegal if it doesnt have one.
so i guess the CofC was right in a way.. the car wasnt illegal.
y the guy was running it in that case is beyond me.. cos they aint that light!!!
ive never ever forgot to take the pin out of ours.. the scinteers (sp sorry) always say dont forget to take it out. as well. cos they know u cant see it when the car is all together
no excuse i feel.. bad planning.. u should always do the same thing every time u get in... take the pin out should be one of um.. id hate to regret it one day!!! not to mention the ouch factor you wouldnt half get a telling off by CofC for it!!
twice for the price of one!! sorry
Matthews Dad 17 Sep 2006, 21:27 I marshal for our club sprints and have done startline for a couple of days this year, and will be agin in future, As i understand it the car doesnt need any safety equipment, as have seen standard road cars used with no roll hoop or cage and standard seat belts
But can somebody clarfiy the position re fire exts as I have certainly seen cars go off the line with the safety pin still in, althought these may have been hald helds
specifically if plumbed in should pin be out? and if hand helds can pin still be in?
scrutineer 17 Sep 2006, 21:40 Hand helds leave the pin in, no need for it to be out. Plumbed in pin out at all times when on track, and post race scrutineering the pin should not be back in till you have left park ferme.
Matthews Dad 17 Sep 2006, 21:51 Hand helds leave the pin in, no need for it to be out. Plumbed in pin out at all times when on track, and post race scrutineering the pin should not be back in till you have left park ferme.
Many thanks for the lighting fast response
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