What can we do to help each other?

Denis had a very good idea in another thread, and I think it's worth the discussion.

Basically, we want to get a list together of what drivers can do to help marshals and marshals can do to help drivers.

Ideally, I'd like to keep this positive so if anyone has had a bad experience of either group, this isn't the thread to go into detail about it - we know it'll end in an argument! Just come up with a positive way of dealing with whatever problem you had.

Here's some suggestions from me - feedback appreciated:

If you are at the scene of an accident (we're talking major shunt or roll here) on the circuit and arrive before the marshals and decide to attend - some (or all) of these will probably be self-evident but I figure I may as well try to be comprehensive:

Do ensure you're parked safely and will not be causing an obstruction
Do ensure your own personal safety
Do turn off the electrics on the car
Do approach the car from the front if at all possible - remember, if you talk to them from the side, they'll try to turn their head to see you.
Do talk to the driver and keep them talking - from the front if possible
Do try to encourage the driver to remain still, calm and in the car (provided it is safe to do so) however, if they insist on getting out of the car, don't try to prevent them - just be very watchful in case they're not as stable as they think they are!
Do try to encourage the driver to keep their helmet on.
Do step out of the way when help arrives - if you have something you need to communicate, try to identify the marshal in charge or just grab anyone in orange.
Do identify your own vehicle to the marshals, explain that you were not involved in the incident and leave the scene if requested to do so

Do not try to remove the driver from the car (again, assuming that there is no overriding reason to do so such as the car being on fire!)
Do not jeopardise your own safety trying to get the driver out
Do not undo the driver's belts or attempt to remove their helmet
Do not try to turn an overturned car back over - even if the driver is out
Do not climb on top of the car and shout abuse at the rescue personnel attempting to attend*

*you wouldn't think I'd need to put that in, but since I've actually seen it happen........ :rolleyes:


Ok that's all I can think of for now - I'm sure my colleagues will have plenty to add! :)

No arguement with any of the above.

With some fear of dissent from properly trained people, I'd suggest; Learn ABC Resuscitation, how to deal with an unconcious casualty. Just in case you haven't come across this, A=Airway, B=Breathing, C=Circulation. If your airway is blocked, no other help will do you any good.
Look for classes in First Aid where you live. Talk to any rescue crew member.

Such skills can be learnt by anyone, and they could help you at work or at home, or just in the street.

And much less important, really a gripe - many club racers used to have hand helds as their in car fire extinguisher. No longer, so you can't grab that as you exit your own car and go to help. Did the MSA consider that?
Marshals are taught to take an extinguisher to any stopped race car.

John

Marshalls

Get some big signs made up with instructions for drivers that are stranded on an inaccesible part of the circuit. Obvious ones are -

- Get behind barrier
- Your car is on fire (ahem!)
- Are you OK?

Be especially aware of drivers with HANS devices, their sideways vision is restricted.

Be aware that the guy that has just parked his car in the armco has probably spent £10-20K plus hundreds of hours building his now destroyed car. If he is upset you can be sure it is nothing personal, just human nature.

In my opinion marshalls sometimes don't do enough to enforce good behaviour. I know rules is rules but is there anyway not poor driver behaviour can be reported and discussed with a driver in a less 'official' manner? A bit of a word in your ear for something that isn't worthy of an official ticking off/points but could get worse over time.

Communication between drivers and marshalls using the flag system is pretty old hat in this day and age. Are their any more modern alternatives? If nothing else a more visible identification of flag points and when they should be looked at would be a big help. Something like a HID headlight pointed at the driver when a flag is being waved would really get their attention! Yeah I know we supposed to spot the posts on the green flag lap but when your racing against several cars your attention is pretty occupied.


Drivers

Acknowledge a marshall when they are instructing you to do something. How would you like to be standing in the middle of a road with a ton of metal bearing down on you and no idea if they have seen you!

Fit tow hooks that are strong enough to get you pulled out of a gravel trap. Otherwise the nice recovery man might find something really expensive to put his rope around.

When you have just driven your car into the armco DON'T take it out on the marshalls. It WASN'T their fault!

When doing the green flag lap, try to remember where the flags were. The next flag they hold out might be yellow and that demon overtaking you just did will earn you a penalty and a ticking off!

If you are at the scene of an accident (we're talking major shunt or roll here) on the circuit and arrive before the marshals and decide to attend -
Are we talking about other drivers stopping to help or have I misread the sentence?
Surely it would be dangerous for another driver to stop and just add to the confusion, the only exception could be if there was a serious fire with no marshals nearby.

John's point re basic first aid is a very good one - I had to tell someone last week that applying pressure to a wound can stop / slow down bleeding - not being a marshal, am not sure how often "bleeding" accidents are come across, but the basics I think are important - if people wish to learn that is.

[edit] apparently there was an incident in Asian F3 last week (in AS I'm told) where a driver had to help a fellow driver after a big accident.

The asian F3 accident was a very good example of when the driver was right to "assist" another driver out of his car after an accident as the ensuing fire lasted several hours according to reports.

I can only agree with what EP has said above. I could add to it by ranting on and giving specifics but I dont fancy annoying myself or anyone else!

The main thing I would say to drivers at the scene of any big accident is to let the marshals do their job, offer to assist by all means, but if your not needed then step back and let the marshals/rescue get on with doing what they do. You may not understand whats going on so ask rather than wading in 'thinking' you know what your doing. Try to always assume that the people dressed in orange are always better trained and better prepared than you to deal with these type of incidents.

To marshals I would say that unless a driver has had a big accident try not to crowd them, make sure they get to a safe spot and then let them blow off some steam and keep an eye from a distance, they will come to you if and when they want to. If you have a question regarding the car (tow eyes etc) try to give it 5 minutes and then ask. A nice way to approach is to offer them a drink etc.

One thing I would like to see is drivers learning some basic hand signals e.g lift tow, straight tow, oil, doctor etc. It would make a big difference in my oppinion.

Are we talking about other drivers stopping to help or have I misread the sentence?
Surely it would be dangerous for another driver to stop and just add to the confusion, the only exception could be if there was a serious fire with no marshals nearby.

It's not something I would actively encourage, but I've encountered a couple of instances of it recently. I would never discourage anyone from offering assistance to someone who needed it if they are willing to do so - provided it's in a structured way that isn't going to hinder rather than help - or potentially cause further injury, albeit with the best of intentions.

One thing I would like to see is drivers learning some basic hand signals e.g lift tow, straight tow, oil, doctor etc. It would make a big difference in my oppinion.

Is there any chance of someone showing these hand signals in pictures ??

And I agree with the "learn basic first aid", in the pits you can have a serious accident resulting in loss of blood, and most people grab what the can, absorbant paper towels etc.. when i was always lead to belive in keeping blood inside. A clean hand over the wound is far better untill proper help arrives.

Also would it be an idea if a driver (member of crew) in a championship who has medical knowledge, be that first aid or doctor, to have their skills made known to the rest of his/her competitors, in the paddock your normally grouped together so if so if something happens you know who to shout for.
We all lend a hand if the car breaks so i'm sure they won't mind helping if a leg breaks.

DocH,
Hand signals knowledge - good idea!
I think I know some, but whenI tried to find a list on the 'Net - nothing.
Is there an official list of arm signals?

John

I'd be cautious about making any informal medical arrangements without the knowledge of the CMO of the meeting. It might cause unnecessary confusion. While it's always good to have assistance, again, I can think of a couple of instances where people showed up at incidents saying they were doctors. That's all well and good, but we usually don't have the leisure to check their qualifications or if they're telling the truth. We always have our own docs on scene anyway.

I suspect there might be insurance issues with that as well if the doc wasn't signed on and something went wrong.

ABCs and CPR are good things for everyone to know. But please do work with your local rescue units if you're going to learn this. There are two things about first aid - First, do no harm. Second, know what not to do.

There are always other factors to consider with the kind of accidents that you see in motorsport - not least of which is what action can you take in 30 seconds that is going to make a difference to someone? I can only think of one obvious instance where immediate action is going to be life and death and that's an arterial bleed. If someone's not breathing when you get there, they still have a good couple of minutes before you're looking at brain damage. If you know you can get qualified personnel there in 30 seconds who are trained to remove the helmet without compromising c-spine and will have a doc with them who can intubate if necessary, why risk further injuring someone by removing their helmet?

There are a lot of rescue personnel on the board here - I'm sure any one of them would be delighted to arrange a Q&A session with any group of drivers.

In my opinion marshalls sometimes don't do enough to enforce good behaviour. I know rules is rules but is there anyway not poor driver behaviour can be reported and discussed with a driver in a less 'official' manner? A bit of a word in your ear for something that isn't worthy of an official ticking off/points but could get worse over time.

I see your point, but it's not something I'd want to get involved in. As far as I'm concerned, as an incident marshal my function is to clear up the consequences of drivers' mistakes, indiscretions or just plain stupidity without making any judgement on their actions. Observers will report instances of bad driving, but as facts, not opinions - it's up to the clerk(s) to make judgements.

Is there any chance of someone showing these hand signals in pictures ??

If you go to:

http://www.marshals.co.uk/guide.php

you can download the MSF's Pocket Guide to Marshalling. This shows some, but not all, the hand signals - it also gives a lot of useful information on how marshalling works.

Now for my personal input:

Firstly, when you pull off, try find a safe place as near as possible to marshals. Somebody's got to get to your car with a bottle - them things aren't light, so lugging them 50 metres or more is not my idea of fun!

Gravel traps present a whole bunch of problems. This is easier said than done, but try to resist the natural urge to drive out. I've never yet seen 6,000 rpm in first extricate a car from gravel; I've seen it dig many a car further into the gravel! It can make the difference between getting the car out & having to ask for a red flag. Secondly, don't just bale out - in many cases, particularly if it's gone in fairly straight, a car can be quite easily pushed out of a gravel trap. I've had a few instances where we could have got a car out & going again, but the driver's unbelted & got out, leaving us with no option but to just push the car to a place of safety. Look towards the marshals - we'll let you know whether we can push the car out safely. Finally, when we do get you out of the gravel, either during or after the race, please drive on the grass, or at least off the racing line, to get rid of as much gravel as possible. That way, your fellow competitors are under less risk of being hit by flying stones & we have to spend less time sweeping the track!

Good thread this and I encourage more drivers to point out things to marshals. As an incident/fire marshal who has never driven a circuit in anger (figure of speech) I would very much like to hear more drivers' perspectives so I can do my job better.

Good thread this and I encourage more drivers to point out things to marshals. As an incident/fire marshal who has never driven a circuit in anger (figure of speech) I would very much like to hear more drivers' perspectives so I can do my job better.

I suppose the most obvious thing to point out is that a driver probably doesn't realise his car is on fire!

Even if they do then they probably wouldn't have a clue how to put it out without the help of a grown up.

And the reason they are reluctant to hit their extinguisher button is it will cost them £100-150 plus possibly missing any more sessions that weekend after probably many hours of hard work, lots of money and time driving to the circuit.

I am really surprised no enterprising person has a little stand at every circuit either doing extinguisher refills for the main makes or replacement bottles (possibly on an exchange basis). Setup cost, a couple of grand tops. Possible return pretty high, especially if you stocked normal spares as well. AND you could be saving someones life when they hit the button first and worried about the cost/race/championship later. Actually thats really not a bad idea, I feel another means of funding racing coming on!

Not convinced about that Dennis. I think in all my time racing (7 seasons) I've only ever seen an in car extinguisher pulled once, and I think I've only seen a marshall actually have to use one on a couple of occasions. Maybe the meetings I go to aren't as "heated" as ones you go to. ;)

Anyway, for my twopenneth:

Drivers:

First, remember that the boys and girls in orange are their for your safety. Second, remember that the boys and girls in orange are their for your safety. Third, remember that without the boys and girls in orange, you don't get to race.

Marshalls:

Keep in mind that when a driver has just visited the gravel/armco/tyre wall he/she will instantly forget the above. Given a little time and space, though, it will come back to them and they will (mostly) look a bit sheepish and very much appreciate the offer of a doughnut.

:)

Because of my basic lack of skill I have been manhandled by marshalls at most of the corners I have attempted and find it reassuring when they arrive in force to help out.
You know you are not at the top of your game when you are on first name terms with the breakdown guys who I wish would go back to wrapping the tow rope around the roll hoop a few times and giving you the loose end to hold that way the driver retains some control.
Best speed I have recorded behind the towtruck 55mph!

Because of my basic lack of skill I have been manhandled by marshalls at most of the corners I have attempted and find it reassuring when they arrive in force to help out.
You know you are not at the top of your game when you are on first name terms with the breakdown guys who I wish would go back to wrapping the tow rope around the roll hoop a few times and giving you the loose end to hold that way the driver retains some control.
Best speed I have recorded behind the towtruck 55mph!

And I thought your cough was the cigarettes. Now I know it's all the carbon monoxide from tow truck exhausts!:rotate:

You know you are not at the top of your game when you are on first name terms with the breakdown guys who I wish would go back to wrapping the tow rope around the roll hoop a few times and giving you the loose end to hold that way the driver retains some control.
Best speed I have recorded behind the towtruck 55mph!

(To the tune of the Billy Paul Classic)
"Me & Mr (*Walter) Jones.........We Have A Thing Going On"



* Walter is Oulton's Chief IO and one of the recovery guys

It would be useful if cars with problems could be pulled well clear OFF the circuit.
They seem to end up either right on the edge of the track or so far from a marshals post its like a half marathon just to get there!

Another point is that cars do not roll uphill when they have a dead engine! The best one for this is the car that blows its engine before Church at Thruxton and then tries to make it back to the pits UPHILL then pulls off on the inside miles from any marshals post.

on saturday last race coming down into paddock bend at lydden the sun was low so unable to see exit where a car had parked at a odd angle or was in the tyre wall any way unable to see marshalls post for waved yellow flag result was did not see car till last second . could the marshalls post be moved when sun is setting and or next marshalls post back have waved yellow and drivers inform this would be happening before taking to the track
ps. basic frist aid courses are run by some of the st johns ambulance. are always a help had to use the course for work . never had a problem with marshalls always done a great job and Thanks

A wonderful example of what can we do to help each other occurred at Curborough yesterday.

BARC Midlands were running their last sprint of the year. Regrettably, the regular CMO couldn't attend at the last minute. Despite lots of phone calls, no substitue could be found.

At drivers sign on, one driver was noted to have the title "Doctor" on his licence. He was questioned as to what kind of doctorate and it turned out to be a medical qualification. He was asked if he would agree to be be CMO for the day and agreed instantly.

He refused any form of payment, preferring the fee to go to the marshals.

What a grand chap!

phanssa 8, Sorry, but Marshal's Posts can not be moved! They are sited on the Track Licence issued by the MSA. What a wonderful excuse from driver, when he misses a Yellow Flag and says "Sorry, guv, it was n't in that position when I qualified this morning!!!"

A wonderful example of what can we do to help each other occurred at Curborough yesterday.

BARC Midlands were running their last sprint of the year. Regrettably, the regular CMO couldn't attend at the last minute. Despite lots of phone calls, no substitue could be found.

At drivers sign on, one driver was noted to have the title "Doctor" on his licence. He was questioned as to what kind of doctorate and it turned out to be a medical qualification. He was asked if he would agree to be be CMO for the day and agreed instantly.

He refused any form of payment, preferring the fee to go to the marshals.

What a grand chap!
In my capacity as Health and Safety Officer I strongly dissaprove of this, had the aforesaid 'grand chap' come to any harm he could have been put in the awkward position of having to administer CPR to himself or even had to set his own broken leg:doh:

One way in which drivers can help is by positioning the electrical cut-off & the extinguisher triggering point in the positions specified in the Blue Book - see Q3.2.2 & Q8. It's also a good idea to put the stickers on the same panel as the controls. I've seen a lot of cars with the controls on the panel below the windscreen & the stickers on the bonnet; not much good when the car's in the tyre wall & the bonnet's in the middle of the track.......:eek:

Not that I'm admitting anything.....must have been the impact that set it off, guv!:innocent:

In my capacity as Health and Safety Officer I strongly dissaprove of this, had the aforesaid 'grand chap' come to any harm he could have been put in the awkward position of having to administer CPR to himself or even had to set his own broken leg:doh:

If he was CMO for the day they I presume he didn't compete.....

If he was CMO for the day they I presume he didn't compete.....
I'll bet he did....I'm not really a health and safety officer!

Most things covered here already, but it may be worth reminding drivers of two trucks that single seaters have very little steering lock, so sudden changes of mind re the route back to the paddock which result in sudden changes of direction can result in us being "pulled over".
As for fire extinguishers, I'm not sure that we are typical, but quite frankly we have never seen a system in any of our cars which we would put any faith in, so in event of an on board fire we will be looking for guys and gals in orange. Those big bottles may be a pain in the bum to carry, but at least they are going to work.

That wasn't 2 trucks, it was tow trucks

In my capacity as Health and Safety Officer I strongly dissaprove of this, had the aforesaid 'grand chap' come to any harm he could have been put in the awkward position of having to administer CPR to himself or even had to set his own broken leg:doh:In my capacity as reasonable person (:?) I suggest two possibilities:

He backed out of competing. (Which I have seen happen some years ago.)
He decided to drive carefully. :rofl:

Regards

Jim

. . . . Those big bottles may be a pain in the bum to carry, but at least they are going to work.You are obviously carrying them in the wrong way then.:rotate:

Jim