Falling or thriving grids?

Anyone have current experience of their chosen series grid sizes?

Are your grids sizes shrinking? If so why do you think?

Are your grid sizes bulging? If so why do you think?

No doubt there are some grids under threat, but why? Are trackdays to blame? Is it ever increasing costs? Or has general imagination moved on and relatively new series are 'stealing' entries?

Maybe a circuit issue?

Mainly money IMHO and the ridiculous cost of entries, proof of this is when a bargain race is promoted by say MSV and by bargain I mean £100 for one race or £150 for two so not exactly cheap but a lot cheaper than the standard £170 for one race of 10 minutes duration then the grids are usually full. When I started in the late 80's it was £45 entry and we had a nice prize fund which you only had to finish to get some money back now there is nothing in the pot. Going back further to the mid 70's when I did hotrods, we used to get paid start money and prize money and no entry fee!

I talk to people about my sport and they nearly always ask what you get paid if you win, when you tell them nothing and it cost £170 to enter they look at you like you have a screw loose and just maybe we do! Then added to this is the ridiculous changing of safety equipment, example I just looked at the belts I bought in Sept last year and they are stamped 2007 so no doubt I will have to replace them so another £100, thats stupid as there is no way a modern prodcuct would wear as bad as the be unusable in that short space of time and I have probably worn then what 10 or 15 times tops.They all want to be very careful they do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

One of the closest most exciting single make championships is threatened:

http://www.wscrda.co.uk/images/yellowcard_a.jpg
http://www.wscrda.co.uk/

I am biased, as I race a Locost, which is effectively a cheap westfield. We get grids of at least 40 and have had 65 at Donington.

Why?

Cost. Its as simple as that. A top spec car costs about 6k, entriy fees with the 750mc are about as cheap as you can get.

We get both novice and experienced drivers disillusioned with other series.

However, costs are going up all the time - demand for Escorts diffs means prices going up (just one example of parts costs), entry fees go up because circuit hire costs are increasing so much, petrol both for the race and getting to and from circuits is getting ridiculous.

I have only raced over the last couple of years, but spiralling costs mean I can enter fewer and fewer races (car chassis bent beyond repair doesnt help!).

The only area that can change from the above is the hire costs of the circuits - are they pricing themselves out of the market?

James

We have lost entries due to not keeping pace with the changing market. There is far more competition with the ever increasing number of series out there and they offered something that competitors wanted more the we could/were prepared to offer.

What did they offer? Things such as -

Faster tyres.
More restricted mods.
Less restricted mods.
Cheaper entry fees.
Two shorter races rather than one longer one.
Bigger grids.
More restricted range of cars.
Much longer races for more cost.
Locality of circuits.
Race dates.
Track days.

As many of the above are contradictory it just goes or totally out of our control it just goes to show you can't win!

You only have to look at some of the current large and small grids, look back a couple of years and see that they were totally the opposite way round without anything significant having changed with the series itself.

I still think if 100% of prize funds were ploughed back into proper award money for competitors and not creamed off along the way it would help a great deal. I have had personal experience of this and whereas Toyos offer of free tyres for new competitors in ModProds was welcome, Falkens 25k a year prize fund and good supply of well priced tyres in a very good range of sizes helped the series a heck of a lot more, just look at the history and you will see I am right!

The biggest problem facing motor racing right now is that its a very expensive hobby that can no longer attracts spectators, mostly because the events the public, as opposed to people's relations, never get to hear about are the club events where there is still some actual racing going on.

Apart from the BTCC itself, with a couple of its support events one of which has been warned about entry levels, the events they sometimes get exposed to are universally boring processions in virtually every race with drivers no one can relate to so there is no way anyone can get passionate about it and tell their friends to come to the next one.

They assume, therefore, that all racing is the same and go and do (or watch)something else where they can relate to the personalities involved.

Without spectators the only income which keeps the circuits doors open comes from the competitors so the Organising Club can only divide up the hire costs by the number of competitors and charge accordingly.

I fall about laughing every time the MSA refers to spectators as a reason to cull Championships - there arent any!

At the last F3 event at Silverstone (pitched as the number one single seater level in the UK remember...) I did some sums. By my estimates there was about £12.5 million of equipment (and this was an underestimation with only nominal sums allowed for the teams' equipment and transport) and a spend to operate all the competing cars at that one event of well over £1 million, taking average budgets for each class.

I then toured the spectator enclosures counting heads. Including relations of drivers etc. I got to about 300! I think some of those were actually asleep during the F3 races and the two hour GT race.

The people I admired hugely were the commentators, knocking themselves out trying to make the F3 procession sound vaguely interesting (I think there were only two overtaking moves, both at Abbey hairpin in front of 67 spectators including me) and keeping track of a long GT event where not too much happened, though I regret there werent too many people listening.

Shame really - this sport used to be fantastic and we could make it so again, but no proper commercial sponsors are interested because they cannot realise any benefit from it, so its only the competitors who can finance it at the moment.

They just have to make a judgement on whether its worth spending the money or not. Its their decision, not the MSA's, the Organising Club's, the Tracks' or anyone else's.

Hi, I've been racing for 2 years, but attending for 20 odd years. Much has been said about falling spectators and I can certainly vouch for that.

I've been really surpised to find the circuits get the gate receipts - in my mind if the club hires the circuit they should get this. Any idea if its possible to do a deal with the circuits to all the clubs to take on promoting the meetings and the inturn keeping the gate receipts.

But of course there are some exceptions...Castle Combe being by far the clearest.

Here there is a crowd, and the revenue gained is seemingly ploughed back in to the facilities and cheaper entry fees for the competitors.

The championships run by the circuit mean that regular fans can start to relate to the drivers, making it a lot more appealing when they come back to watch more.

What I don't undertsand is why other circuits aren't more keen to try and recreate this model....

Castle Combe - A well run business - plain and simple, work hard at attracting the spectators AND the competitors then don't be greedy & plough the profits back into the business to make it sustainable in the long term. It's not complex just hard work.
Maybe this is the solution?

British motorsport in my opinion is in very dire straits, not so much from a competitor point of view as there seems to be lots of us willing to spend a lot of money at the circuit and away from the circuit for what appears to outsiders as very little gain or enjoyment time, although we are a special breed of "headcases", the sport at all levels seems to be very out in the cold at the moment. Spectators are dropping drastically as are race championships at various meetings, maybe due to the racmsa having to many of the same championship or due to costs, who knows. Personally i dont complain about entry fees, probably being due to just accepting the amount it costs to do something i love or maybe out of the fact that the misses controls all the household cash so it doesnt make any difference to me as long as my entry gets paid, probably the latter.

Seriously though, i run a motorsport based business and from the inside i can see a fairly bleak future for club motorsport, even to the point that i think its only a matter of time before the amount of races and track time we get will be cut down to the bare minimum, why i dont know, maybe down to more circuit owners preffering trackday money to race day money or economic climate change perhaps.
Something does need to be done to help us and the future of our sport.

Any suggestions?

I've been really surpised to find the circuits get the gate receipts - in my mind if the club hires the circuit they should get this. Any idea if its possible to do a deal with the circuits to all the clubs to take on promoting the meetings and the inturn keeping the gate receipts.

Yes, but you'd have to buy these rights off them too.

A good racer and a good friend of mine has just hung up his helmet and reckons he has had enough and is doing the Brands Trackday event instead to try to get his buzz that way. Loosing guys like this is bad news but I can understand his thinking.

Or has general imagination moved on and relatively new series are 'stealing' entries?



Not sure how to interpret the first part of the sentance but would agree that new series are gaining the entries.

This will always happen as a well planned and policed series will attract those from other series who:

1. Feel they or their car will be more competitive in the new series
2. No longer feel welcome in their existing series
3. Have grievances with other drivers/ organisers
4. Hope they will spend less

It isn't necessary for any of the above to be true, simply that they are believed will be enough to make people move.

Isn't this continual evolution and development of new series healthy as it brings "new blood" into motor sport organisation and a continual stream of customers to the motorsport industry ?

Yep a new series will attract existing drivers and a small number of new ones. It will also damage the existing ones and result in smaller grids all round. If it's really popular then it will ultimately destroy one or more of the original series and usually leave several drivers/cars stranded with nowhere to go but track days/give up. If it isn't popular then it will take several years to die, again with slowly dwindling grids.

The end result will be an overall loss of drivers to the sport after a period unhappy drivers/spectators/marshalls/circuit organisers.

And then the circle will start all over again.

The big question is WHY the series started in the first place rather than the inevitable one or two people just joining another one and/or trying to get it to change.

This is always due to some form of self interest on the part of the 'leaders' of the new series, or reluctance to change on the part of the existing series organisers.

Neither of which is a very good reason for the resulting choas the ensues.

Until the MSA start taking responsibility for British club motorsport rather than just playing with the big name championships then this cycle will continue to destroy. Club motorsport will die and probably take professional motorsport with it.

Fair points but I will give a couple of examples of what happened to ModProds while I was there.

The rot IMHO started when we visited Combe for the first time and with a massive grid(s) of cars we impressed big time, so much so that the Combe managment in their infinite wisdom decided to 'steal' the idea and more or less use our regs (that I wrote) chapter and verse without even as much as a thank you. That hurt and immediately started pulling our SW drivers away so why were they allowed to do that, i.e. start a championship/series based at one track to the obvious detriment of an established national championship.

Next thing that happened was BARCSE did the same based at Lydden mainly but at least they had the grace to contact me and ask my permission to use the regs which I agreed because even if I had not they would have been able to go ahead. Then lately you had the emergence of DTRC again similiar rules (apart from some of Class A) creaming yet more cars/drivers away and while they are on a high at the moment offering something bright and new (rolling starts, two race format, reduced entry fees) and good luck to them I think they also should be aware of the massive differentials in performance amoungst the classes as that could end up being their achielles heel.

Having said all that when we started ModProds I guess we did the same to the Road and Super Road Saloons as again there were similarities in the championships but with some major differences and the reason we formed, trailering to the circuit and not being abliged to drive to it and not being a road legal car which i know was erking some drivers as I was one of them and had asked for changes but never got them. We were backed by a good sponsor and had an entrapeneering guy at the helm so we got off to a good start and did steal a few of their drivers I must admit.

lots of very valid points in there Al,

i suppose its a case of like everythng else in life changing markets, the race series/championships that succeed will be those enough on the ball to supply what is closest to consumer demand, effectivly race organisers are like shop keepers, if the product is wrong, priced wrong or just plain old fashioned the punters will go elsewhere, i have been involved with Barc se for 6 years now and the only reason DTRC is as popular as it is is that we have worked very hard to supply as best we can what drivers want, and by god was it hard at first, we started with a couple of grids with less than half a dozen cars, but never deliberately tried to take drivers from other series although some of that is inevitable, evolution is key, what ever you do it must evolve and move on or die, lets face it most of us love old cars and get all misty eyed over old moggy minors, anglias or mk1 escorts etc, but if they were still being made how many of us would buy one new as an every day car when modern cars are so much better?

a couple of points to note with regards to DTRC, its is popular, and yes gaining in numbers, but we have quite a few first time drivers who have decided to come racing in the first place because of what they have seen with us so more numbers doesnt always main drivers "nicked " from other series, without trying too hard i can think of at least 15 who have started their racing with us, have perviously been sprinters, trackday drivers, mechanics or just plain spectators.

we also try very hard to look after drivers, and try to show loyalty for support they have given us, we want to grow more, and yes Al is right there are some very big speed differenicals, although at places like lydden its not so much of an issue as we have enough cars to run split grids, now if only we could do that at brands, but to do so requires a bit more foresight on the behalf of those hiring out the circuit, we have had full grids there even turned cars away, because we dont have enough to buy two grids at the full going rate, but we could do it if we got the second grid half price, and ultimatly the organising club would of made MORE profit even if it brought the avaerage profit per car down, most places you can negotiate discount for bulk purchases.

were back to the same old thing again, if only meetings with good spectator friendly content was run and those meeting effectivly marketed to the public at correct turnstyle prices the specatotors would help fund the racing, and cheaper entries would men more cars, more cars more spectators it coud be a self perpetuating thing, trouble is ther are too many looking at only the short term £££

This is always due to some form of self interest on the part of the 'leaders' of the new series, or reluctance to change on the part of the existing series organisers.

Neither of which is a very good reason for the resulting choas the ensues.

Until the MSA start taking responsibility for British club motorsport rather than just playing with the big name championships then this cycle will continue to destroy. Club motorsport will die and probably take professional motorsport with it.

True, If you look at short circuit racing as a closely related sport with similar costs ( away from the bangers), this is what goes on. A promoter ( similar to a organising club) comes up with something attractive and people migrate to that promoters meetings until another comes along. However, the sport as a whole seems to thrive rather than die.

I think the difference may be that promoters can start up for less cost than an organising club and they don't have a body such as the MSA restricting what they can and cannot do.

Maybe, if at some point MSV find it profitable to organise more meetings we may see some change. Until then, I doubt things will change much and the circle will continue.

Good posts Grahame.

On the subject of short oval stuff, why did they never hold a meeting at Rockingham, I would have thought it would have been mega not bangers of course but the faster non-contact stuff. Can I hazard a guess that the MSA may have been the sticking point!

Any idea how much the circuits would charge the organisers to take the rights to gate receipts ?

Its the same old argument that has blighted the sport for years, it really is about time someone found some middle ground on this and got their acts together.

Don't worry Al, your series starting actually helped Road Saloons by removing unhappy bods (like you!!), and left us road going loons to enjoy ourselves. Both series were needed, and we still could field four good grids at each meeting after the "trailering crowd left.
The DTRC scores in many fronts - low entry fees (worryingly increasing though), friendly crowd (not unique on this point), and "easy going" regulations. Some series need a legal team to check your car over, and must put off many whose car is rendered ineligible by some spurious rule.
Graham makes a good point about promoting meetings that the public want. My feeling is that we need well promoted meetings with lots of variety (formula cars, sports cars, saloon cars) - mostly short quick races with low entry fees. Don't forget most of us have a short attention span - I'll admit to wandering off bored during longer distance races, usually confused (maybe its the old age, folks!!). Then I believe the races would be full again, and the spectators would return in droves. That I would have thought would increase circuit owners profits, but maybe they secretly hope to sell up for the housing needed for the next wave of immigration.
However, I will continue with more productive motions - like banging my head against a brick wall perhaps!!
Again, I will say that I still think the safety items are now more about retail and manufacturer profits, than for our benefit, and it is putting some club competitors off.
Maybe we'll join the later generation on the playstation, or trackdays.

Yes the delay between races is a pain. I have been taking a guy new to motorsport with me this year and whereas he has enjoyed himself he finds the waits between races and all that silly warm up lap nonscence really boring (just why do we need that with modern oils and engines surly you can warm em up in the holding area if you atre that worried then just get out on the grid and go for it, that way they could no doubt get another race in and the entries may come down a little. Maybe introduce more rolling starts as well toi hurry things on, I really enjoyed the 4 that I did this year. Just come out the holding area, pick up the pace car for one lap and then start the race from a roller, no stalled cars, no lining up on the grid just get on with it, save me a bit of squirt as well!

interesting stuff !
i feel like an old fart, looking bad on better racing days, and not getting why it all goes downhill... i put some thought into it, and see some points that might contribute to it...

cars: there is no more engine capacity racing possible for new cars !
too much electronic and engineering options included in modern saloons of all sizes as to be able to let various brands and types let loose to race in any capacity class.
maybe this is the reason why manufacturers search theire base in one make championships, or high end classes as super1600 or wtcc or btcc.
those i feel have killed racing for a big part, as cars are only eligible for a max. of 5 years ( if the cchip suvives ). short lifespan and high part prices
make this choice pretty expensive !

also letting v.i.p.s loose after just a licens course does not help to make racing a established sport ! it makes people beliefe everybody can do it competitively just after a days training !
why i should i go and watch people do something ordinary ?
any why should i pay to provide a stage for the manufacturer and the vip to promote themselves ?

so, near no chance to grab a contemporary road car and go racing by just adding some safety kit and suspensions. so you NEED a second car to go and start racing.

that car might need to be classic or historic then, and not everybody is happy to restore a shell and get rid of rot on a 20 year old car before they buy the parts to go racing.

same basically appies for single seaters.

so appart from formula ford and maybe stock hatches, you will be forced into
a very limited used car market with sometimes ridicolous prices to get a racecar, if you want to get into it.

this might be ( together with ressesion ) a reason why you are unlikely to find a car dealer to help you in any way ! you race a single seater, or a out of date car ! no use for him to advertise, and no parts that just happen to get lost in stock...

so not just expensive safety gear to blame, you cannot use your everyday car to START racing ( very common a decade or more back still ).


events: seems all tracks feel the need to be on bernies level, and offer posh pitlanes and flat cerbs and tarmac runoffs...
the cost to provide that will add to my entry fee ! while often it does the opposite of spicing the driving up for me !

organizers - seems that everybody organizes racing series now !
years back that was the job of your asn, and what you paied your licens fee for ! they were paid to provide you with a playing field for a small number of class championships, that would cover about all cars from f1 to mini.
with the introduction of self organized one make series, that concept seems to be forgotten and lost.
now every fragment pays there own organizing team for a job they already should have paied for with the licens. and clubs no longer work for free aswell ! its no longer all clubs that hire circuits and sell racetime to competitors direct ( over the msa granted championship status ) - its commercial organizing companies !
so you now pay your msa, the track, your series organizer and the event organizer, and all want theire share !
you still wonder why entry fees get ever higher ?
all this whlie grids are falling, cause every championships hunting for a niche market to try and survive...

parts / tires: all the raised budgets as on above, and the fashion to be seen racing if you have too much money, rather than playing golf, you cannot blame the race part suppliers and tire people to not try and get theire share !
while surely some prices raised due to improved products, other seem to be raised to the point that it will still get paied, as in the overall picture its still peanuts ! you know... its easier to get away with stealing a million, if you deal in billions ! ;)

tires for example...
there is no longer a works organized championship for some of my cars.
i KNOW the organizers got money from the tire supplier, and 30% of each set went back in price funds ! there are no price funds any more now, but i still pay the same money for my tires... why ?

anyhow, we are all stupid !
apparently its possible to race on tires that last all season long, as its done in the us ! on control tires ! performance lasting ! and guess what ? they are a lot cheaper than any tire you could buy here aswell !

does it matter if you go a second slower if you safe a big chunk of your budget ?



so it seems as if ever fewer racers have the task of giving everyone who joined the party the same profit as many more racers did in the past !
if there is no cut made by the racers, and only moaned year after year, nothing will change !
all stop racing for a year, show people that your money is not for granted, and start from scratch ! nobody forces you to pay the prices asked !

also it seems very few peole are interested where theire money goes to !
how else could we be made paying two or more people for the same job ?

time keeping is just one point...
you pay the tool for the timekeepers ( transponder ), but theire services still went up in price according to some organizer justifying theire entry fees...

in my eyes racing as it used to be is dead !
the sad remains will ruin themselves if not a major point is made !
sadly it seems as you can only take on the people who take our money, if you can afford to throw some money in the ring to start from scratch !
but it could be done !

On the subject of short oval stuff, why did they never hold a meeting at Rockingham, I would have thought it would have been mega not bangers of course but the faster non-contact stuff. Can I hazard a guess that the MSA may have been the sticking point!Al

They have held a meeting at Rockingham. 10th September. Joint meeting SCSA cars with several Short circuit Oval races. I heard good things about the day from people who went.

Regards

Jim

Would TV coverage encourage you into any particular series?

It would for me (within reason).

Would you be prepared to contribute towards TV coverage?

I know how sensitive cost is and how sympathetic and hard working co-ordinaters usually are, but if Telly coverage would encourage more into a championship, could it actually have a reverse effect on the cost for competetitors?

It 'could' encourage a full entry which (if you buy your own grids) cost saving could be spread.

Would TV coverage encourage you into any particular series?

It would for me (within reason).

Would you be prepared to contribute towards TV coverage?

I know how sensitive cost is and how sympathetic and hard working co-ordinaters usually are, but if Telly coverage would encourage more into a championship, could it actually have a reverse effect on the cost for competetitors?

It 'could' encourage a full entry which (if you buy your own grids) cost saving could be spread.

No.

ditto

TV coverage? I hope it would be better than the dross i watched on motors TV the other night coverage of the Great & British, whole show without a commentry! I mean why did they not just record the circuit commentator if they couldnt afford their own.

I can't believe that it won't add SIGNIFICANTLY to the costs. Grass roots motorsport does not warrant it.

Cost would of course be crucial.

Some championships are hoping to half tyre costs next year and look at buying grids to reduce costs, one problem is that over the past 5 years or so grids have fallen and whilst cost is an obvious issue, and the draw of newer challenge's, we want to encourage new drivers in.

Presuming the 'cost' to the compete doesnt increase, would a driver prefer to be on the telly in turn for a contribution (£35ish per race) the rest being subsidised by sponsorship?

Just quickly read through this thread, so apologies if I've missed the point.

A couple of questions were asked about costs.
The circuit owners wanted min £10k in order to relinquish the gate, last time I asked.
Circuit hire charges are commensurate with the cost of circuit ownership. I believe that the council tax bill alone for Brands is close to £1m per year. The owners, whilst enthusiasts, are in business not charity work. I imagine that if less philanthropic owners had secured the MSV cicuits, they would all be housing estates by now.

The cost of entries could easily be reduced if all races had full (or near to full) grids. I don't see the the MSA doing anything to achieve this. It is really down to those of us paying entry fees and wanting them lower, to organise ourselves into series and championships where we can rely on full grids. Much like the guys in the Track and Race series have done.

Spectators at motorsport events are IMO a thing of the past. There are too many other opportunities for people over a weekend. Sunday trading probably accounted for most folks who used to watch a bit of motor racing. It's hard to see how a chap could drag his family along to a wet and windy race circuit, to stand in the rain and watch 10-15 cars (in many cases) run in procession.

I doubt that we will ever see enough spectators returning to make any impact on entry fees. To get any back, we need to be creative and put on more of a show. Endurance racing appeals to drivers but not anyone else.
Sprint races are more appealing, but not if the result is a foregone conclusion.

What makes the driver who is forever at the tail of the field keep coming back? I am a fan of handicap races as, if done properly, can produce winners from the otherwise slowest competitors, provide much overtaking, excitement, and be enjoyable to compete in. If anyone here did the old 8 Clubs meetings final race of the day, you'll know exactly what I mean.

TV? I don't think so. Very expensive to put on and unless done in the same way as the professional stuff, extremely naff.

Just quickly read through this thread, so apologies if I've missed the point.

A couple of questions were asked about costs.
The circuit owners wanted min £10k in order to relinquish the gate, last time I asked. Circuit hire charges are commensurate with the cost of circuit ownership. I believe that the council tax bill alone for Brands is close to £1m per year. The owners, whilst enthusiasts, are in business not charity work. I imagine that if less philanthropic owners had secured the MSV cicuits, they would all be housing estates by now.Absolutely right. This is a business in which we all have to play a part, including recognising that it is a business.

The cost of entries could easily be reduced if all races had full (or near to full) grids. I don't see the the MSA doing anything to achieve this. It is really down to those of us paying entry fees and wanting them lower, to organise ourselves into series and championships where we can rely on full grids. Much like the guys in the Track and Race series have done..Right again and this links to the way to increase (or not decrease further) the numbers of spectators.



Spectators at motorsport events are IMO a thing of the past. There are too many other opportunities for people over a weekend. Sunday trading probably accounted for most folks who used to watch a bit of motor racing. It's hard to see how a chap could drag his family along to a wet and windy race circuit, to stand in the rain and watch 10-15 cars (in many cases) run in procession.

I doubt that we will ever see enough spectators returning to make any impact on entry fees. To get any back, we need to be creative and put on more of a show. . And that starts with a programme which caters to a proper start and end time. "I've paid for the whole programme and don't want to leave before the end but this is going on too long. I've got the pub to go to or shopping to do or want to be home with my family. If I leave before the end I feel cheated and am missing out."

Endurance racing appeals to drivers but not anyone else.
Sprint races are more appealing, but not if the result is a foregone conclusion..

What makes the driver who is forever at the tail of the field keep coming back? I am a fan of handicap races as, if done properly, can produce winners from the otherwise slowest competitors, provide much overtaking, excitement, and be enjoyable to compete in. If anyone here did the old 8 Clubs meetings final race of the day, you'll know exactly what I mean..Hmm. Handicap (and long distance) are not my kettle of fish but they are much improved by really good commentating and a PA which can be heard plus circuit radio. Screaming commentators describing a side-by-side battle which simply does not exist, are not what we need. Titchmarsh, Pye and Addison all do a great job. (And others too, I am sure ;) .)



TV? I don't think so. Very expensive to put on and unless done in the same way as the professional stuff, extremely naff. I don't have TV so only see it very rarely. Just sometimes it can make a boring race interesting because the boring bits can be dropped. (F1 anybody?:p )

Regards

Jim

Hmm. Handicap (and long distance) are not my kettle of fish but they are much improved by really good commentating and a PA which can be heard plus circuit radio. Screaming commentators describing a side-by-side battle which simply does not exist, are not what we need. Titchmarsh, Pye and Addison all do a great job. (And others too, I am sure ;) .)

Agree about needing informed commentary Jim. I was going to make that point, but felt that I was banging on too long :)
There are so few handicap races in the UK these days that we would have a responsibility to assist the commentators in understanding what was happening on track.

Would also need drivers who understood that once caught, their handicap had been eroded, and blocking was therefore not an option.

Yes and hands up how many of you dont bother to ever fill the commentry sheet in! We also used to try to get a non participating club member (me sometimes) to go up into the box and help out, its all about entertainment, how boring is that Motors TV Great & British coverage with no commentry, I turned off after five minutes, I was even waiting for some silly 60's background music to pipe up!

Sorry but an extra £35 (ish) on top of an entry fee of £165 (ish) -ie another 21% is too much for me at my level. Perhaps series like the Porsche Club Series - ie a series where there may be some marque interest - could justify it but not me.

In any case I am not sure who would watch, apart from ourselves and or friends and family - just like the curent spectators at the race track. I am a 17 handicap golfer and (probably) a "28 handicap" racing driver - I don't expect anyone to watch me play golf and I certainly don't expect anyone to watch me race!

Yes and hands up how many of you dont bother to ever fill the commentry sheet in!

I do. About all I put on the sheet is the series web site though, and the fact I can't drive in the wet.

A couple of our guys have a competition on who can put the most rubbish on the sheet. Childish but occassionaly amusing.

Sorry Dennis it is childish, how can you expect the commentator to help you guys if thats the attitide, I have always and will always fill mime in.

Speaking as a commentator, it is amazing how many racing drivers are also in the porn industry, if their commentary sheets are to be believed.

Ones that are well filled in are a godsend. Background on the car, the driver, and perhaps how the car gets round the circuit are all useful and interesting.

A good championship website is a big help. One series I was commentating on recently had quite a good site... lots of background and championship history. Up to date race results and reports. But no sign of the latest championship positions, probably the single most important piece of information you could want!

Well if you are on duty next weekend at Donington Ian make sure you have a good look at the Classic Touring Car Racing Club's site because its currently all upto date and very good. Oh and I am filling in my form tonight:-)

Sadly I am not, but if I get another chance to do CTCRC I will take a look. :)

Can anyone confirm why the circuits want at least £10k to relinquish their rights to the gate money? That seems a ludicrous stance to take by the circuits, as the vast majority of clubs meets can't bring in anywhere near that, can they? That's 1000 people at £10 a shot, and at the 750MC meetings I've been to, they're lucky to get 100 people in!
Surely the circuits realise this, so why can't some deal be done. Like relinquishing the rights for £1k instead which might entice the organising club to promote it. Or how about the circuit relinquishing the rights to the gate money for free, on condition that the gate money raised is split 50/50 between club and circuit (or some other viable split).
Hey Mr Palmer (and other owners), surely something can be worked out?
Remember, more spectators = reduced entry fees = more competitors = more sponsorship (due to more spectators) = more money for Mr Palmer etc. Everybody wins?

Shame that Ian I would have looked forward to meeting you.

Why indeed £10,000 does sound a lot especially after reading JP's article in Motorsport this week where he recons it costs £3 a person catering for spectators. Maybe thats the problem if they religuish the gate for nothing who picks up the tab for catering for the spectators (I dont mean catering as in food but toilets, clearing up, attendants and staff etc).

To give you an idea on TV coverage. I helped with THE FORCE (Historic F1/2/5000) series a while back and heard that a film company would gladly record the series for TV. The charge would be £50,000. This was about 3 years ago. I would imagine any series would be about this price, you would have to take a deep breath to commit to that sort of figure to make a series popular.
Might racing be cheaper if we did it on a Wednesday????!!!

It probable would apart from those of us who would have to close our businesses and loose several entry fees in the process.

To give you an idea on TV coverage. I helped with THE FORCE (Historic F1/2/5000) series a while back and heard that a film company would gladly record the series for TV. The charge would be £50,000. This was about 3 years ago. I would imagine any series would be about this price, you would have to take a deep breath to commit to that sort of figure to make a series popular.

And that doesn't include the amount you have to pay the circuit to have the camera's there.

I think the £50,000 is a bit over the top. The cheaper (but less 'professional') companies are asking somewhere around £10,000. If you could spread the cost between a number of the series then that probably wouldn't be too bad.

You couldn't probably ever cost justify it though given that that for that money the footage will be shown on some non-entity Sky/cable channel at an unpopular time slot.

Can anyone confirm why the circuits want at least £10k to relinquish their rights to the gate money?
I can't confirm why that particular figure, my conversation centred around looking for a price that would entice the racers to buy the gate and promote their own meetings.
If we take £3000 as the base cost of allowing people through the gate and guessing that the owners would like to make a profit, it would need to be at least £6000 I guess. Don't think that I'd want to take the risk of paying for promotion to get that back at say 1200 people at a fiver a head.

They obviously would like to see the potential extra profit from spectators, but my feeling was that, they too didn't have much expectation of a resurgence of people flooding through the gates for clubbies - promoted meetings or not.

If we want lower entry fees in the short term, we need to supply full grids at each meeting.

Gate money is really a hot-potato! The Circuit Owners have to pay staff to collect for Admission, and some of this entrance costs go there, but if you hand this income over to the Organising Club, the Circuit will still need Staff on the Gates - who pays them? Many passes, queries, etc, come from members of the public relating to any event being held, and only permanent gate staff can deal with this.
Can you deny that JP has ploghed back a large amount of Income back into Circuit improvements at ALL four Race Circuits?

""I think the £50,000 is a bit over the top. The cheaper (but less 'professional') companies are asking somewhere around £10,000. If you could spread the cost between a number of the series then that probably wouldn't be too bad.""


AMGTV who cover Ford XR, NW ff etc quoted circa £3,000 for 4 trackside camera's and 4 incar. It goes out on Motors tv and so far everything they film actually goes out.

Not BBC primetime stuff but then its not £10-5ok and you get on the telly

Some of that Motors TV stuff is crap though, they cant even afford a commentry! I dont get this, why are you discussing the drivers paying dont we pay enough already?

Al

The discussion is based around ideas on how to get more interest in falling grids, Im interested particularly because I would consider sponsoring some of the cost myself if it encouraged driver into a series.

It looks like the series in question may have just halved tyre costs, i wondered if racers would like to contribute towards affordable TV coverage, If no-one thinks its a good idea I wont waste my money.

I would however welcome constructive idea's to try and revive a dwindling grid size.

I dont really think thats the answer, I tuned in to the Motors TV coverage of Great & British because I am out with them next weekend and wanted to see if they broadcast any of the support stuff (they don't) and could not believe how amaturish it was, even as a motor sport fan 5 minutes viewing was enough for me, Bathurst it was not! We have fair grids next weekend maybe the guys think they will be on TV (they won't)! Drop the entry fees to sub £100 and you will be amazed how many cars start turning out. I think that £170 for a 10 lap clubbie is just too much whether you have the money or not it is just poor value and IMO the route of the problem.

I completly agree with the cost issue, £170 for 10 laps is lousy.

BUT, I dont think it will drop, do you?

If not my issue is; can we do anything else to get more bums into race seats?

(Im a V6 man myself) :)

Of course not unless JP sets a trend as it was Nicola Foulston who set the trend the otherway. Thats the reason though IMO and if it does not change then the grids will never be what they were.

Have to agree with Al. Get the costs of the races down and the cars will turn up. The only reason I only did half a season was cost of entry fees (and one big crunch which ended season a meeting early), and the 750MC with whom I race has some of the cheapest entries of any series - no real profit to make, or people to pay - but still at least £130 at the cheapest circuits. It's not their fault - the circuit hire is so high (why??) that they have to charge through the nose.

James

- the circuit hire is so high (why??)....


Simple, all tracks, be it in the UK or even Belgium, only want to make a profit (and rather a big one).

Getting bums on seats isn't easy. Too many things to do nowadays for young folk in the weekend. Wasn't it for the older people something like: either you go to church or go to the races.
Plus prices at the gate are far too high anyhow. 12 quid for a clubbie??? Even for the better ones it is still far too much, a fiver would do and would bring folk back after a while once the word gets spread.
But that is another problem, how do they expect non-racing people to find out if there is something going on near their home?

Getting prices down for racers and spectators would be a start to fill seats and races. More advertising in the local press would help as well.

Only problem is nobody wants to do it.

I can understand the circuits have a cost to bear with people at the gate and catering etc., but isn't that part of the circuit hire charges? What is the point of the circuits keeping the rights to the gate money when there is hardly any at all, and may not even meet 'gate costs'? And I agree that £12 for a clubbie is too much, it needs to be in single figures.
So get circuit owners to relinquish the gate money rights for an amount that covers their 'gate costs' (surely not £10k), and then all gate receipts are split 75/25 between organising (and now promoting) club and circuit. The circuit doesn't lose out because it gets it's 'gate costs' and maybe more, and the club has a good reason to promote the meeting. And the gate cost should a nice single figure like £8.
Am I dreaming?

Ok so if circuit cost is at the root of entry fee problems it would make sense for far-sighted circuit owners to drop gate fees.

We are in the business (Easytrack) of hiring circuits up to 80 times a year, and the circuit cost presented to anyone hiring takes into account a figure inclusive of required profit.

That being the case the best move would be to drop gate fee's (or drastically change) to encourage racers and spectators alike. Far too many grids are struggling and not that much is being done to secure the future of grassroots motorsport.

The obvious question now is, 'Is there any likelyhood of any circuits listening to this idea, or do they only see immediete profit not long term operation?

It also seems, according to most that TV wouldnt encourage them, so subsidised entry fee's would be the way forward?

circuit hire cost is surely going away from the market !

problem is that club racing is forced to often use facilities that are planed
for top level motorsport, without having the comfort of the big pits and cosy
vip suits.
also i do understand that a company like msv needs offices, but does it need
to be as big as foulstone complex ?
would you be prepared to accept that i charge twice as much for a helmet design, arguing that i needed those posh offices and workshop ?

part of the problem might be that airfields and street circuits ( not in uk ) are
a thing of the past ! that gives permanent circuits no competition.

it goes with current fashion to raise prices, and increase manager wages and
profits in all parts of buisness world.
and i see the point that today the land the circuits are on is worth more than 20 years ago.

so in short my list of problems to adress to get full grids is:
- get rid of as much burocracy for competitors as possible, to safe hassle for regulars, and make it easier for starters.

- get running cost ( tire prices, entry fees ) down to a level that does not scare people away.

- sort classes to a minimum to avoid similar cars running in three low grid races exept one full grid

- maybe invent a 'road going' class for newcomers to allow them to get in at all

- do not bank on spectators ! they are a thing of the past ! we are as unpopular with most people as the horse races, local football or swimming.
maybe even keep spectators out, if it brings insurance premiums down conciderably.

also i do understand that a company like msv needs offices, but does it need
to be as big as foulstone complex ?

Quick answer: The John Foulston Centre, (now the MSV Centre) was inherited with the Circuit from Octagon. However, only the Ground Floor and Basement are actual offices, and even the Ground Floor has quite a chunk taken out for the Reception Area. The top two floors are multi-functioning Conference and Hospitality Areas, which I can assure everybody, do bring in quite a substantial amount of Revenue. Conference Suites during the week, Hospitality Suites at larger Race Meetings, and such items as Wedding Receptions, and Trade Shows. So I think that the actual office space is minimal to run a Group with five Circuits!

Did you know according to the article in Motorsport JP paid just 15 million for the 4 circuits, sound a bargain today does'nt it? Alos one of his co owners is John Britain, I was in court with him once (next case in, all motoring offences nothing serious) as they had a garage up the road and he had to stand down as the lady beak knew him so they chucked the book at me instead as I was next in! :-(

As far as spectators entries I can only reliterate the tale of a few weeks back I invited a friend to attend a Snet meeting and he motorcycled all the way there but when they wanted £28 for him and his kid he turned around and went home!

The top two floors are multi-functioning Conference and Hospitality Areas, which I can assure everybody, do bring in quite a substantial amount of Revenue. Conference Suites during the week, Hospitality Suites at larger Race Meetings, and such items as Wedding Receptions, and Trade Shows.

great !
if so much of the infrastructure earns money, they can stop adding it on the bill for circuit hire !
somehow i do not have the feeling it is done...

You run a business and you can persuade say 100 people to fork out £200 each for your product

...or by dropping the price to £100 you can get 200 people to pay. Same income but more people to cater for = more time and effort needed to administer them

So what do you do - you're in business, you take the higher profit option of course

So why does anyone think its in the circuit owners' interest to drop prices if they can find enough of us mugs to pay the higher prices?

- do not bank on spectators ! they are a thing of the past ! we are as unpopular with most people as the horse races, local football or swimming.

Don't agree Carsten, if you see the number of spectators at Combe (just one example), it is huge. Same goes for other lots of other meetings.
Only thing: people need to know something is going on. Agreed, modern (general non-racing) spectators have become lazy, they just don't bother that much anymore as there are so many things you can do in a weekend.

So why does anyone think its in the circuit owners' interest to drop prices if they can find enough of us mugs to pay the higher prices?

It is always the same problem: do you earn more by charging less and selling lots more stuff, or by keeping prices high and selling only a few things, hence living of a big but single profit?
This is the same story that has been going on for ages in Belgium with bus fares. Fares are high as the companies loose money, therefore no travellers. Now if they brought the prices down, it would bring lots more people on the buses, therfore more money.
What was there first: the egg or the chicken?

You are correct in saying that there is always somebody daft enough to pay too much money.
The tracks could do bring the hire cost down, as the prices are getting close to being silly. But as long as there are people willing to give that amount of money, it will never happen.

You run a business and you can persuade say 100 people to fork out £200 each for your product

...or by dropping the price to £100 you can get 200 people to pay. Same income but more people to cater for = more time and effort needed to administer them

So what do you do - you're in business, you take the higher profit option of course

So why does anyone think its in the circuit owners' interest to drop prices if they can find enough of us mugs to pay the higher prices?

You could always take the Disney view and realise that twice the number of people ALSO means twice the number of burgers, cans of coke, programmes, baseball caps etc etc etc being sold.

UK companies really have no idea of how to exploit customers like the sceptics do.

Is that Sceptics or septics Dennis? :-) But yes I do agree and I once got an answer from a high ranking official when I asked the question 'Is it better to have a full grid of 30 cars each paying £60 each or 15 cars each paying £120 each?' Answer, '15 as it means less work for us'. When I asked about entertainment for the spectators I was told that it is of no consequence as they don't get the revenue. So work it out if that's the attitude/scenario are you surprised its all going down the tube.

still i think it a case of making racing worth watching again before you go out
and try to promote it to bring spectators back in !

or you will never get them in again because they are sure its not worth it ever
again !

the racing needs to become healthy again, and that can only come by full
grids, that offer a good show and offer racing for healthy budgets.

the budgets to go racing have risen a lot recently, as relatively more wealthy
people felt it fashinable to be seen racing.
often they choose big cars in order to 'buy' higher up positions.
at least in germany this has killed all the racing with small cars.

problem is those wealthy people loose interest pretty soon in many cases,
leaving a gap on the grid. they are not as enthusiastic about it as the old
fashioned racer is.

in return the higher costs all round force a lot of racers to take a season off
every 2 or 3 years at least. just to recover from the overdrafts and get the
car back in a worthwhile state which they can not afford during a season.

i am sure that a third of all potential cars are laid off because people need a
break !

for interest...
where do all the WHT ff1600 race over the summer ?
are there 150 plus cars out continiously, or are people dusting theire cars off
for a prestigious, relatively cheap to run event ?

if its the late, maybe a mini series of four races could do the same !
maybe 6 tires for all four races and very low entry fees...

Last year 152 drivers/cars (give or take - some shared) did the WHT - compared to, I think, 374 drivers who took part in FF1600 during the season in the UK and Ireland. No doubt some duplication of cars among that, but still only a fraction of the available cars were out there.

It does seem circuits don't need spectators and if the original question & concern is how to keep costs down to keep grids up then maybe the answer is not to have them.
Does anyone know if the circuits want spectators?
Does anyone know if extra spectators came along that it would make such a financial difference to our entry fees?
If so, how many? A 75:25 agreement sounds very logical and we would start promoting tomorrow I'm sure.
The clubs might do a far better job at promotion.
The circuits, it seems, are now succesfully entertaining the enthusiastic public all week by having them drive around the tracks in their cars and on their bikes on Corporate & Track Days. There are no spectators to speak of and therefore no extra overheads and everyone using the facilities are very happy. Cheap, easy to run and probably profitable...(very?).
It seems this is where the money is made and probably more could be made at the weekend when people aren't working instead of us using valuable track time racing. This may be what we have to compete with.
Racing on a Wednesday without spectators might not be so daft. It might also bring the entry fees down to a sane level. We might be a bit short of that very valuable asset though....The Marshall...

I live 1 mile from Donington Park &, as a race fan (or would not be on here!), I keep well up to date with what events are on. However, I virtually never see any promotion of events in the local media and yet the catchment area - lets say one hours drive from Donington must include the major cities of Nottingham, Derby, the Birmingham conurbation and Sheffield. Is it any wonder there are no spectators. Apart from th hardcore Autosport, Motorsport News and 10 tenths readers no one realises that there is anything on.

Circuits do need spectators. Otherwise there will be no revenue from rented stalls, food outlets, raceprogrammes and many more things.
The problem is that most trackowners have become complacent about that issue, as their track is rented out often enough for track days and things. And that is easy earned money, hardly any personal needed.

The same goes for me as for Andy, I live about 15 miles from Zolder, if I wasn't a racing man, I wouldn't even know it is there. The same applies for Spa, albeit 50 miles.

I live 1 mile from Donington Park &, as a race fan (or would not be on here!), I keep well up to date with what events are on. However, I virtually never see any promotion of events in the local media and yet the catchment area - lets say one hours drive from Donington must include the major cities of Nottingham, Derby, the Birmingham conurbation and Sheffield. Is it any wonder there are no spectators. Apart from th hardcore Autosport, Motorsport News and 10 tenths readers no one realises that there is anything on.
And believe me there is one big event on this weekend so make sure you make it! The Classic Touring Car Racing Club has a fantastic entry across all its 4 races with no less than 4 (maybe 5) Camaros entered and a seasons best in Classic Thunder and I believe in Pre-66 as well. Plus all the Mini, Ginetta and Radical action, its looking real good.

This brings me back on topic and may be a relevant point. I have raced in pre 74 and Clssic Thunder with the club this year and in CT at least some of the grids have been poor so explain to me this, on the last race of the season, nights and weather drawing in we have a seasons record of 27(?) cars entered. So why have they all come out of the woodwork now and where were you guys earlier in the season?

This brings me back on topic and may be a relevant point. I have raced in pre 74 and Clssic Thunder with the club this year and in CT at least some of the grids have been poor so explain to me this, on the last race of the season, nights and weather drawing in we have a seasons record of 27(?) cars entered. So why have they all come out of the woodwork now and where were you guys earlier in the season?

Are there many Mod Prods entered?

DOnt know Dennis as I don't know their names and there is no separate class but it may account for the upsurge, fancy some!

DOnt know Dennis as I don't know their names and there is no separate class but it may account for the upsurge, fancy some!

The car is already in several hundred pieces distributed across the country. It's going to be a busy winter finally getting to correct the rest of Toyota's cock ups.

Oh well good luck, come and watch on the Sunday!

Like I already said, and has been repeated by Eddy, the quality of the racing does need to be more interesting,also ,as the local economy does benefit from the meetings being advertised,F.1 brings in approx 27million locally to Silverstone, I know we cant compete with that, but If these events are advertised then you will get more spectators attend, but we do need to give them something to watch!!!!

I think the Donnigton event promoted by renault with zillions of free tickets was great for attracting new spectators. Lots of different Renaults, clios, Renault FR UK (surely one of the best series, attracts drivers from all over the world) World Series Renault, track demonstrationof last years F1 championship car and lost of stuff around the circut. About 60,000 turned up (even though the weather in the morning was lousy). Next year apply for the free tickets and take your (non race mad) friends, its a great introduction to our sport.

Incidently I went to the BTCC last weekend at Silverstone (a godless cuircuit for spectators if ever there was one), very large numbers there, could hardly get a seat at Luffield to watch the UK FR (which went to the final race with Paddy Hogan and Seb Hohentahl finishing the series tied on points).

And believe me there is one big event on this weekend so make sure you make it! The Classic Touring Car Racing Club has a fantastic entry across all its 4 races with no less than 4 (maybe 5) Camaros entered and a seasons best in Classic Thunder and I believe in Pre-66 as well. Plus all the Mini, Ginetta and Radical action, its looking real good.



And believe me, know one knows that it is on (apart from us!)

Thats just crazy. I do printig and you can get a great price on colour print these days so what would it cost to knock out a few A3 posters and distribute them around.

The problem is that the clubs think the trackowner should issue those posters, where as the trackowner thinks the clubs should do it.

In the days when I still organised races, I took it upon me to have posters made, it did cost the club some money but it brought us a lot of spectators.
And a nice profit it was too.

Now if everybody did something like that.

Yeh, tried that when Brands Hatch was owned by Octogon. I got a letter saying that advertising rights for Brands Hatch and any and all events held there were the sole right of the venue owners. They said that anyone caught advertising an event held there would be prosecuted (for what I don't know). Needless to say, having claimed sole rights to advertise the meeting I was going to... they chose not to. Surprise, surprise, there were virtually no spectators.

That's an interesting one DT38. You can't be prosecuted besause that's for breaking statute law (you know, stuff laid down by Parliament that the police look after). But you could sued in the civil courts. Would have been fun, when the brief for Octagon stood up in front of the beak and said:

"My Lord, Octagon allege that by using their name the defendant helped them to make lots of money." May not have got too much in the way of damages :-)

Ruddy double post again, sorry

Dunno, maybe it was something to do with branding or copyright and the use of the name of the track. It seemed to come under the same catagory them being really sensitive about people using on-board cameras and the possibility of showing the results in public.

Anyway, someone once told me that they didn't advertise clubbie meetings because that meant employing enough staff to cover the crowd, and that cost more than the take. If that's true, then I guess they wouldn't want anyone else advertising and surprising them with a big turnout....!

Even on a poorly attended clubbie meeting they still need to man the gate (gates for Brands), grandstands still need stewards, there is still the litter teams clearing up.
I can't see them being swamped by the event being advertised, although it would increase income from the gate & food vendors.

It seams crazy that the organising club can't even promote their own event!

I just got back from HSCC at silverstone, the gate money certainly would not meet the security staffs wages for the day. Yes I know ,I should have gone to Donnington as originally planned-but.

You should have Terence, even if i say so meself we were hot today:-)

Pile it high and sell it cheap! That's what I say.
Take a leaf out of Castle Combe's book, they reap the benefits of well supported championships offering entertaining racing, bringing them lots of spectators making use of their facilities and buying merchandise etc....

I'd be interested to see their annual results - I bet they're making good profit.

(pressing the play button of an old well worn recording....)
It's time for the circuits to organise and run the meetings, that way they reap the benefits like Combe because it's in their interests to put on entertaining meetings, and we should remember that this is not just a sport, it is an entertainment.

There will be casualties - those championships that the circuits don't want -perhaps they can carry on in the old way of hiring the circuit to put on a meeting.

With the circuits then having a vested interest in the success of the meeting, then they should market it properly, obtaining sponsorship for the meeting overall, each individual race, and more "circuit branding".

It's the only real way forwards.

Or we could just carry on as we are and stagnate/go backwards.

I have to agree with Al, the problems all started when Nicola Foulston floated BHL and went profit mad, and took the business down many wrong roads.
Thankfully we have Dr Palmer at the helm giving it some well needed medicine, it just needs the right therapy to finish the job.

Rob.

I don't think I dreamt it, but did I not see a piece in last weeks Autosport about Castle Combe paying back some money to this year's competitors, presumably where grids had exceeded their expectation? If that is correct, why are we not all queing to run with castle Combe?

Because it's miles away?

Because they don't run races for our cars?

But it's a great initiative.

Strange though that Palmer is thought of as different to Foulston. Both are in the business of making as much money for themselves as posible, it's just that they have different ways of going about it. It's no criticism because I think he's been good for the sport, but the good Dr P is no philanthropist.

Like the Strawfords at Combe though he seems to understand that there is a breaking point for the average Joe, be they spectator or competitor. Ever-higher prices can only be justified by improving the value.

Difficult balance though. Spectators want lots of short, sharp races. Competitors want the maximum seat time for their money. Different value perceptions.

I don't think I dreamt it, but did I not see a piece in last weeks Autosport about Castle Combe paying back some money to this year's competitors, presumably where grids had exceeded their expectation? If that is correct, why are we not all queing to run with castle Combe?

Because it's miles away.

Because they don't have a category for my car.

Because racing at the same circuit all the time is boring (to me anyway).

I don't think I dreamt it, but did I not see a piece in last weeks Autosport about Castle Combe paying back some money to this year's competitors, presumably where grids had exceeded their expectation?
The production Beemers had a race at Combe in March Bob. Paid £190 for an entry and had £30 back for feilding a full grid. Excellent!
If that is correct, why are we not all queing to run with castle Combe?
We did and are in for a meeting:)

Because it's miles away?
Closer than Pembrey, but where isn't? :)

I must admit, we haven't been ourseves, we did intend doing an open single seater race there earlier this year, but we came back from the previous Renault round short of several gearbox teeth and so gave it a miss. Pity really, unlike some of you guys, it's our closest circuit. We also couldn't raise interest in racing at only one circuit all year, but the occasional visit for an open single seater race when it is only 45mins down the road and its supporting what looks like a good initiative does seem attractive.

Thats great news John! Its a slap from London sure but not a bad slap and very easy to get to.

Closer than Pembrey, but where isn't? :)

Anglesey!

Anglesey!
Knockhill...

Haven't been to either for years - No passport :)

Because there's no guarantee that when you pay your £180 entry fee that you'll get your £30 rebate, and if you do its at the end of the year.

This is a "nice to have", better than no rebate, but the race entry is still a fairly ridiculous £180 for 20 minutes & 12 laps, and the driver is carrying the risk of a low number of entries.

I've never ever seen a cost breakdown of putting on a race meeting; does anyone have real figures? Plenty of "rising insurance premiums", etc, but i'd be very interested in understanding the numbers involved.

jon


I don't think I dreamt it, but did I not see a piece in last weeks Autosport about Castle Combe paying back some money to this year's competitors, presumably where grids had exceeded their expectation? If that is correct, why are we not all queing to run with castle Combe?

Motorsport News did an article last year I think - I am fairly sure I posted the analysis of the costs of running a meeting on here somewhere.

. . .
(pressing the play button of an old well worn recording....)
It's time for the circuits to organise and run the meetings, that way they reap the benefits like Combe because it's in their interests to put on entertaining meetings, and we should remember that this is not just a sport, it is an entertainment.

There will be casualties - those championships that the circuits don't want -perhaps they can carry on in the old way of hiring the circuit to put on a meeting.

With the circuits then having a vested interest in the success of the meeting, then they should market it properly, obtaining sponsorship for the meeting overall, each individual race, and more "circuit branding".

. . . Some observations on this approach.

Brands Hatch - MSVR has been set up and is running at least some of their meetings.
Mallory Park - Operating lease owned by BARC
Pembrey - ditto
Thruxton - ditto

Castle Combe - CCRC set up and is running most of the meetings

Donington - Well that's interesting because they set up Donington Racing Club to run meetings there. That fell by the wayside when the management preferred to hire the circuit out to clubs or promote the meetings with clubs being paid an operating fee to badge and run the meeting.

Silverstone - well we all remember what has been going on there over the last 7/8 years. BRDC running most meetings, then sold out and now back in the operating seat - sort of.

Snetterton - MSVR?
Oulton - hires out to clubs
Cadwell - ditto?

So I don't think that either the recent history or the current position actually supports all your argument.

Also I think you are failing to take into account the high proportion of circuit income which comes from trackday and other non-racing activity.

Full grids (and even a reserve or two) plus exciting racing (which almost always rules out multiple classes and long durations) are key to making the sport attractive to a wider population. Add in shortened practice duration and quicker turnround between sessions.

Just my two penn'orth. :)

Regards

Jim

(which almost always rules out multiple classes and long durations)Can't agree with the first part of that statement Jim, long duration yes but you can get sime pretty close racing across the classes in some championships. A Fiesta beat the mighty Gerald Faber Camaro on SUnday albiet in the pouring rain!

If by practice you mean qualification, we only get 10 minutes anyhow so how shorter should it be. The green flag lap is a nonscence in my opinion though, get out there line up and get on with it or better still do a roller. That way they could squeeze at least one more race maybe two and that should mean a cheaper entry and I get to save petrol, who wants to do a slow lap anyhow?

The green flag lap is a nonsense in my opinion though, get out there line up and get on with it...
For cars using road tyres yes, but starting a race on completely cold slick tyres in not fun.

What did they do at Le Mans in the old days then, its the same for everyone so live with it you never knpw it may just spice the spectacle up a bit or alternatively take the cars out the marshalling area pre lined up, one lap round where you do all yer weaving etc. to your hearts content then go straight into a rolling start, job done at least 10 minutes saved.

Does anyone actually know what it costs to hire the various circuits? A comparison table would be good. After all, entry fees all seem to be around the £165 mark (+ or - a few quid) for a 15 min practice and a 15/20 min race and yet the cost of hiring Anglesea must be less than, say, Brands or Donington...isn't it? I'd be surprised if the hire costs, plus meeting operating costs divided by the number of competitors always managed to come out to a similar (ish) figure. Do some meetings subsidise others? If so, I am not sure I am happy about that!

After all, entry fees all seem to be around the £165 mark (+ or - a few quid) for a 15 min practice and a 15/20 min race
Not so sure about that Andy. I seem to remember last year paying more like £195 for that at Brands and maybe £175 for a second race. Lydden on the other hand was more like £165 for the first race and £90 for a second. The rest vary in-between, except for those series that have sponsors and get cheaper entries.

I read in Motorsport, the JP interview that it was £10k for Snetterton and £20k for Brands, given that I would rather run at Snett which I actually quite enjoy.

Brands £20K
Oulton £19.5
Snett £10
Cadwell £9.5
Don't know any others, but the Track day folks will.

Commercial organising costs? (call it £15K) Docs, Rescue, officials, timekeeping, entry handling, programmes, MSA insurance fees, staff wages and overheads etc etc.

If you ran a meeting with 8 races and 25 entries each race, divide the total by 200 and you have the actual entry fee required to cover this.
(Brands Example comes out at £175. Add another 50 entries and it drops to £140).
However, if you are taking the risk of attracting 200 entries, where would you put the entry fee?

In the summer you get 8 hours of track time available including an hour for lunch (0900-1300, 1400 - 1800) An hour track time for each race, but you have to allow for clear up between sessions, all the palaver between practice and races and so on, so you soon get back to 10 mins practice and a 20 minute race.

The BARC HQ do effectively subsidise smaller grids by charging a standard fee regardless of race entries.
Don't know about other organisers as I don't race with them.

Don't forget to add on MSV mandatory "options" such as the hire of their photo copier and operator for the day, etc etc so your £10k at Snett etc with everything you have mentioned plus other things is more like £18k!

Bloody hell, I would take me own photocopier!

Can't agree with the first part of that statement Jim, long duration yes but you can get some pretty close racing across the classes in some championships. A Fiesta beat the mighty Gerald Faber Camaro on Sunday albeit in the pouring rain!

If by practice you mean qualification, we only get 10 minutes anyhow so how shorter should it be. The green flag lap is a nonsense in my opinion though, get out there line up and get on with it or better still do a roller. That way they could squeeze at least one more race maybe two and that should mean a cheaper entry and I get to save petrol, who wants to do a slow lap anyhow?

Sorry Al, I obviously need to add a bit more context.

Classes: Sorry but what I was trying to say was that I know who is in front, the rest are just the first of the losers!:rofl:

No, I don't mean that really but distinguishing between classes is fairly technical and I really believe is a turn-off for other than the real enthusiast (read anorak).

Green flag - well I rather agree with you. Give drivers most of a lap round to the grid and then 10 seconds and off (or a rolling start instead if you want).

As for practice/qualifaction - if you were all kept to 10 minutes - great. Most meetings I go to seem to give much longer - 20 minutes at Outlton? Frankly it is dull. And if you are trying to attract spectators ? ? ?

I know that the big boys (F3 ? ) try to argue that they need it but I'd force them to learn more quickly. :rotate:

Regards

Jim

The best estimate I had was from a friend whose small club used to organise the classic club meeting at Donington - a few years ago. They had to raise £25k to cover the costs. Circuit hire plus (non-optional) incidentals. Plus all the rest - biggest I guess would be the insurance premiums payable to the MSA.

Add that up and divide between entrants. :bmood:

Regards

Jim

Re formation laps from the collecting area, green flag laps etc.
Brands, Snet, Combe & Donnington now have very short runs from collecting area to grid, which means cars can all form up on the grid while the remains of the previous race are swept away. Once the circuit is clear the green flag lap starts followed by the race start. If you went straight from the collecting area to the start, you would not be able to leave the collecting area until the circuit was clear and open again, which in most cases would delay the meeting even more.

Re formation laps from the collecting area, green flag laps etc.
Brands, Snet, Combe & Donnington now have very short runs from collecting area to grid, which means cars can all form up on the grid while the remains of the previous race are swept away. Once the circuit is clear the green flag lap starts followed by the race start. If you went straight from the collecting area to the start, you would not be able to leave the collecting area until the circuit was clear and open again, which in most cases would delay the meeting even more.

I may be missing something here, but if you can release the cars onto the grid while the circuit is being cleared of the previous race, why does it make a difference whether they then have a green flag lap, or start their race? it amounts to the same thing.... they still have to wait for the circuit to be cleared either way. If, after waiting, they then dont do a green flag you have saved time have you not?

When Ms N Foulston introduced the "Racing Ahead" format a few years ago the idea was to close up the gaps between races reducing the quiet track time.
Cars went from collecting area direct to grid (no formation lap) to start (no green flag lap), the usual result was cars sliding off on cold tyres on the first lap, which often meant even more delays after the race collecting the wreckage.
It didn't save any time it just seriously pi55ed off anyone on slick tyres.

I completely agree that the formation lap is a waste of time and most circuits don't do it now, strangely Oulton Park reintroduced the formation lap after the "Racing Ahead" format was canned, although all they need to do is move their collection area to the other end of the paddock (ie the Parc Ferme area) to change it back.

I may be missing something here, but if you can release the cars onto the grid while the circuit is being cleared of the previous race, why does it make a difference whether they then have a green flag lap, or start their race? it amounts to the same thing.... they still have to wait for the circuit to be cleared either way. If, after waiting, they then dont do a green flag you have saved time have you not?You are, missing something that is! We were held in the collection area last weekend until the track was cleared, then proceeded to drive half a mile to the grid (plenty of time to get everything warmed up nicely) then on to the grid, switch off and sitt here 5 or 8 minutes. Then start up and around we go on a formation lap, back to the grid form up lights on and away. Why did we need that formation lap, that the bit I don't get! You have all the guys weaving away not me because if I generate too much heat they start to go off before the end of the race and I daresay some of the weavers are fooling themselves as well but hey they do it on TV so why not! Also what about the waste of fuel with all this messing around, see my green issues thread :-)

Look this cold tyres thing, are we or are we not meant to be racing drivers? If so can't we adabt to the conditions for a few laps after all its the same for all. The last time I raced on pure slicks was HotRods and we just went out there and got on with it, just what is the problem?

If you have a race where no cars are using slicks then the green flag lap can be canned, but if slicks are used there must be a green flag lap (2-laps if there is a change in conditions between qualli and race). MSA reg.

The problem seams to be the waste of time in between forming on the grid and the green flag lap, which I completely agree is often absurd and completely unexplainable.

MSA, Oh I see that makes sense then. Now tell me just what is the point of a second green flag lap when its raining, they did this at Donny last weekend and I just don't get it, its raining right, you can't see very well and its slippery, how many laps do you need to work this out, it makes no sence to me sorry.

Look this cold tyres thing, are we or are we not meant to be racing drivers? If so can't we adabt to the conditions for a few laps after all its the same for all.

Correct Al, I remember the early days well. It was onto the grid, cold tyres and off we went.
Sometimes even we went off. ;)

But that was the way it was supposed to be. When the first warm up laps came, it annoyed me as it was so much extra hassle. Hardly did any weaving myself, even using slicks.
Now everybody just got used to it I guess.

Back to basics wouldn't be bad.

This discussion seems to have wandered off from reducing grids to reduced grip. I'm intrigued as to what an answer is to make racing popular enough to keep the attraction up, race entry prices down and the circuit owners (and their share-holders, helicopter mechanics etc) happy.
It does seem we, the racers, have to do our bit to attract new drivers.The circuit owners don't seem to have a budget for effective promotion of the events OUR clubs put on to get effective gate money (which may or may not reduce our race bills) so again, WE may need to do something here too.
Whatever the answer is it needs finding out because there are quite a few people tired with having to pay out present prices which as a result, reduces grids, let alone paying out any price hikes which may happen in 07. We can't go on strike as our race days will be filled with Caterhams & Scooby-doos! Help!

I went to Brands a couple of weeks back as a spectator to check out the DTRC race as i'm thinking of doing a bit of that next year.

Following on from the above, the thing that struck me was the huge amount of time where nothing actually happens - 5 minute boards, green flag laps, green flag laps after a restart, out and forming up, 5 minute boards, blah blah blah. Really, there's no need for this stuff. Form up in the paddock; loose the green flag lap and loose the "lap of honour" stuff. With a bit of organisation we could double the number of races in a day, which transaltes into a better spectacle for the audience, more track time for the racers and / or more entries on the day.

Overall I think the major issue with uk motorsport & the MSA is that there is no, or not nearly enough, distinction between professional racing and amatuer club racing - the DTRC or castle combe saloons runs to the same basic format and sporting regs as a F3 or BTC event; this is like having the same rules govern my local 5-a-side tuesday evening kick around that Man U abide to :)


jon

>>>>>>this is like having the same rules govern my local 5-a-side tuesday evening kick around that Man U abide to

Ah but they do, don't they? If you're a registered player you have to abide by FA rules. If you're only kicking around in a sports centre, that's equivalent to track days or going indoor karting. Mainstream motorsport has rules for safety and redress against cheating.

That said, I agree with the main point. Less farting around, just get on with it. Speeds things up for the race and the spectator - win/win surely? One of the worst things about motor sport is hanging around all day (plus travelling) for 15 minutes of action.

Sounds like the BRSCC initiative from a few years ago "Racing ahead" or something, quick fire meeting 10 minutes qualifying and two 10 minute races
no green flag laps.

But I dont think it helped get spectators through the gates

You only have to visit Castle Combe to see how it can be done.
As soon as previous race is finished, cars are released from the collecting area direct to the grid (no formation lap).
While they form up the winners of the previous race are interviewed just in front of the grid. They then have their parade lap on the pickup, followed by their race cars. The course car follows this group.
As soon as that lap is finished the green flag lap starts, followed by the race start.

Like I,ve already said ,the only way to improve on the gate figures is by the race organizers keeping the race "gaps" to a minimum,local press to be informed etc, then its down to us to put on a good enough "show", when racing abroad the drivers are classed as entertainers!.

Whereas here we are seen as clowns :)

Or muppets that pay the wages:rofl:

Whereas here we are seen as clowns :)

I would have thought the least a clown would work for was nothing!

Now you're depressing me Denis :(

I would have thought the least a clown would work for was nothing!
How wrong could you be !

Where's those regs John (and/or Dennis?).

Here's an interesting comparison... The Birkett 6hr team handicap. I did that at Silverstone recently. There were fifty 6-car teams... 300 cars of all shapes, sizes and era's. Morning practice was none competitive, just needing all cars to do at least three laps. (I went out for about 20 mins). Then followed by a continuous 6 hour race starting at 11am with 50 cars on track at all times. With most teams, each car is on track for 1 hr usually in two 1/2 hr stints. At the last meeting, only 3/4 hr was under safety car, the rest was none-stop action.

A spectators delight you might imagine... didn't see too many myself though :-(

Here's an interesting comparison... The Birkett 6hr team handicap. I did that at Silverstone recently. There were fifty 6-car teams... 300 cars of all shapes, sizes and era's. Morning practice was none competitive, just needing all cars to do at least three laps. (I went out for about 20 mins). Then followed by a continuous 6 hour race starting at 11am with 50 cars on track at all times. With most teams, each car is on track for 1 hr usually in two 1/2 hr stints. At the last meeting, only 3/4 hr was under safety car, the rest was none-stop action.

A spectators delight you might imagine... didn't see too many myself though :-(
Did the Organgrinders advertise it??

I remember back in the seventys,Anglia Tv used to have ads for just about every race at Snett.And yes ,wether it was the ads or not ,at least the public were made aware of it and there were always good gates .I know things have changed but if those ads had carried on ,I wonder what it would be like now!

I remember back in the seventys,Anglia Tv used to have ads for just about every race at Snett.
LWT used to mention events at Brands Hatch during their Friday evening news too.

I have a nice video at home we bought from Anglia TV featuring the ModProds, professional filming and professional commentry, they did a fine job.

Here in Australia, most meetings get very poor gates, except for the V8 Supercars and some Historic meetings. Many people bleat on for hours about all of the changes we need to make to a race meeting to get bums on seats, but they overlook the most obvious critical point, advertising.

People will not go to a race meeting, if they don't know it's on.

Its been said many times on this forum and indeed this thread David, but in the UK we have this ridiculous standoff between circuit owners and organising clubs who hire the circuits but don't get to keep the gate reciepts.

So it always boils down to why (and maybe rightly) should the clubs waste their money advertising if they see no extra return for the effort where as the circuit owners have covered there profit margin for the weekends hire and more punters means more staff so why bother and so it goes on round and round for ever like a Ground Hog day nightmare.

Did the Organgrinders advertise it??To the best of my recollection it was in most of the motor racing mags and advertised at some of the other race tracks (not that many people would see it there).

But that is usually the problem, there is not much need to advertise an event amongst racefolk as most people are aware what is / will be happening.
The other punters, who have nothing to do with racing but willing to try anything, are the ones that we need to reach. And they do not read racing magazines, do they?

Its been said many times on this forum and indeed this thread David, but in the UK we have this ridiculous standoff between circuit owners and organising clubs who hire the circuits but don't get to keep the gate reciepts.

So it always boils down to why (and maybe rightly) should the clubs waste their money advertising if they see no extra return for the effort where as the circuit owners have covered there profit margin for the weekends hire and more punters means more staff so why bother and so it goes on round and round for ever like a Ground Hog day nightmare.
Aaahhh, that's a problem. In Australia, most organising clubs who hire a circuit get the gate and pay the circuit owner a flat fee for hire of the facility. Sadly though, many of them then make no effort to advertise and the gate is bugger all. :rolleyes:

Interestingly, the discussion seems to centre around falling entries but it is the falling spectator attendance we should be most worried about. In the last 35 years, I have noted that, in the North East, we lose about 10% of the competitor base and a similar number of marshals each year.
In order to maintain a static number we need to recruit both competitors and marshals. And where do they come from? Off the spectator bank.
Unless the Circuits, and it is their responsibility, start to realise this and promote ALL meetings as effectively as Castle Combe has, then Circuit Racing will very quickly return to the 'Gentleman's Sport' (ie only the weathly) it once was - and it will be all the sadder for it.
Gate staff have to be employed anyway as there will always be a few diehards. Surely it is better that they be fully employed all day selling tickets. Create promotions such as MINI driver gets in free, passengers pay or a two for one. Increase the gate to 1000 (profit for event increases), better atmosphere therefore more people come next time (even bigger profit).
Am I being nieve?

will the ddmc be working more closely with the barc now the barc control croft, terry as i dont see the nsscc and the n/w sports/saloons being two separate championship much longer

will the ddmc be working more closely with the barc now the barc control croft, terry as i dont see the nsscc and the n/w sports/saloons being two separate championship much longer

One BIG championship then! Good news in my mind.

The subject of gate vs club vs circuit operators, does make my eyebrows go north a little when you think about the BARC running Thruxton, Mallory, and now Croft.

The have an ideal opportunity here to reduce entry fees dramatically by ramping up promotion, and taking a leaf out of the Castle Combe book of how to please spectators, and keep them coming back time after time (bringing their friends too!). The reduction could be done via a rebate scheme, based on (a) grid numbers, and (b) value of the gate.

Will they do that??

Look - over there - a pig with wings.......

Rob.