Hypercars as the new GT1s?

[MJones94]

Apologies for the title choice, just to clarify this is a thread of pure speculation.

The newest DRIVE Shakedown video on Youtube brings up some good points as to whether the new generation of hypercars should usurp P1 cars as the pinnacle of sportscar racing. Or indeed should the new hypercars such as the McLaren P1, Ferrari F70, Porsche 918 etc. should become their own class, much like the FIA GT1 class.

There are certainly many cars that would fit this category, and it would be great to see a return to the 'proper' GT1 class.

Is there even a possibility that the 'GT1' cars could compete for an overall victory with the P1 cars, much like what we saw in 1995 with the WSP Porsches vs the McLarens et al.

I would be very interested to hear your views.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnOvdGdPnhE

[Beetle]

You know, that was exactly what I was thinking! Great minds think alike...

What I think should happen in Le Mans/FIA WEC events is a big alteration in class structure. I think LMP1 cars should only be for factory teams, and LMP2 cars stay the same, with teams like Rebellion, JRM, Strakka, and OAK going there full time.

There's a big debate going on behind closed doors now about the cost of racing. A lot of teams, in the current economic climate, are being forced to file bankruptcy or limit their participation or downgrade in classes. I think the Le Mans racing world should stop forcing themselves so much... if you have the money, go with LMP1. If not, go to LMP2 or GT3 racing.

I think GTE should be thrown out. In my opinion, it was much more interesting to watch GT1 and GT2 (the old version of GTE). GT2 and GTE is basically the same thing. I think GT2 cars shouldn't be quite as advanced and downgrade to GT3 specifications while GT1 cars should start to form their own factory teams, like factory McLaren, Ferrari, Audi, and Porsche teams, and facilitate it like I'm saying they should do with LMP1 and LMP2.

I'm sure a lot of teams would be happy to downgrade if they could still race with LMP1s in the FIA WEC. I think, right now, that's the smartest choice.

I'd like to see in GT1...

Pagani Huayra
Lamborghini Aventador
Ferrari F70
Porsche 918
Chevrolet C7
McLaren P1
Koenigsegg Agera R
Nissan GT-R
Aston Martin One-77
Audi R20 (possibly in 2016)

et cetera...

[MJones94]

I totally agree with you there, especially on the P1 front. I find it remarkable how teams such as Oak spend millions of euros to be in a class that they have little to no chance of winning. JRM and Strakka are slightly different seeing as they could potentially become a Honda works or satellite team in the near future.

GT3 are more or less as fast as GTE cars now, or I predict that they will be by the end of 2013. So it would make sense for GTE, being much more expensive than GT3 to be dropped. If you look at images of the 2013 Ferrari 458 testing, it has almost the same amount of aero flaps and wings than the 2012 GTE 458, if not slightly thinner. It would be much more cost effective for teams to run cars if the WEC adopted GT3 rules.

For the GT1 cars, the list is very large, like you have pointed out. I found out that McLaren never envisaged racing the F1, yet did so as there was such a great demand for owners to take theirs racing. Admittedly, it would be more difficult to do that now, but perhaps this might be the case. Besides, the new crop of hypercars are too good to just simply exist for the road, they need to prove their worth on the track as well.

[Simmi]

I've said for a while that it would be amazing to go back to a time where LMPs and "GT1" style machinery can compete for the win. There should be more than one way to skin a cat.

Currently to win Le Mans you can have freedom in terms of energy and tech but you are pushed into an LMP1 mould which makes all the cars look very similar. That's not really in the spirit of sportscars and endurance racing so hopefully something can change in the long-term.

[Joe Taylor]

It would be absolutely fantastic for about 2 years, before every manufacturer apart from the one winning the championship pulled out due to spiraling costs. Much like the original GT1 in fact.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I've said for a while that it would be amazing to go back to a time where LMPs and "GT1" style machinery can compete for the win. There should be more than one way to skin a cat.

Currently to win Le Mans you can have freedom in terms of energy and tech but you are pushed into an LMP1 mould which makes all the cars look very similar. That's not really in the spirit of sportscars and endurance racing so hopefully something can change in the long-term.

Exactly. I say if you are giving an energy limit to the teams let them do what they want with it.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Joe Taylor

It would be absolutely fantastic for about 2 years, before every manufacturer apart from the one winning the championship pulled out due to spiraling costs. Much like the original GT1 in fact.

I can see that too, exciting series always seem to die young due to rises in costs. Having said that, in the grand scheme of things it would be unlikely that despite a rise in costs, that a hypercar racecar would be as expensive to run as a P1 car. Surely?

I do hope the FIA/ACO see the potential in this new class, a lot of the new hypercars have some sort of KERS system as standard, which fits into the Organisation's ideals.

[johntt]

I think they should use supercars as the main class in the unified American series instead of the Frankenclass of DPs/P2s they're proposing. P2 numbers are looking very low for 2013 in ALMS and the issues with DPs are somewhat obvious. Call the supercar class GTP and have the 2014 merged GTE/GT3 class as the secondary class split into a Pro class and an Am class - call the Pro class GTO and the Am class GTU.

Leave P1/P2/GT Pro+Am alone for WEC/Le Mans, if it ain't broke etc.

[Koenigsegg]

The problem with hypercars in a GT1 class are the costs. Some hypercars cost over 1 million dollar/euro. Transfering those cars into GT1 race cars will cost even more. There's no manufacture that will do that, especially not in the current economic climate.

But let's say that the manufacturers will do it. Then the only cars we will see are from Porsche and Ferrari. Perhaps also McLaren. Audi doesn't have a hypercar, neither does Nissan, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus and Corvette. Koenigsegg, Pagani, Zenvo, Hennessey, etc. are too small to produce a competitive race car. Even Lamborghini is probably too small. If they do produce a competitive race car, then it's probably only for 1 or 2 years. Development costs will become too high.

(I'm not so sure about Aston Martin.)

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by johntt

I think they should use supercars as the main class in the unified American series instead of the Frankenclass of DPs/P2s they're proposing. P2 numbers are looking very low for 2013 in ALMS and the issues with DPs are somewhat obvious. Call the supercar class GTP and have the 2014 merged GTE/GT3 class as the secondary class split into a Pro class and an Am class - call the Pro class GTO and the Am class GTU.

Leave P1/P2/GT Pro+Am alone for WEC/Le Mans, if it ain't broke etc.

Are you talking about the possibility of having a Super GT/DTM/GTP-style cars on the unified American series? But wait, we're talking about hypercars as GT1 racers...

Seriously, there's no way hypercars could compete in GT1 on this current economy. And second, putting the GT-R and Corvette against the likes of Pagani, Koenigsegg, etc. would look out of place as demonstrated in 2010 and 2011 FIA GT1 season. (although the MC-12 is even look more out-of-place than the rest of the field)

[James C.]

The problem with hypercars in a GT1 class are the costs. Some hypercars cost over 1 million dollar/euro. Transfering those cars into GT1 race cars will cost even more. There's no manufacture that will do that, especially not in the current economic climate.

Also, ACO/FIA would certainly make these hypercar-GT1s slower than the LMP2.

The cost would be justified only if these cars would be able to race for outright victory.

[Maelochs]

Koennigsegg raises good points.

Hypercars are not designed to race. Regardless of what top speed they might hit, these cars are not designed to be safe and durable in a competition environment. Most would need major reworking---major chassis mods, adjustable suspension, engine durability research and development---all on cars which are ridiculously expensive to start with---not to mention fairly rare.

Which manufacturer could afford to write off a number of chassis each year due to accident damage? And what would the RoI be? It isn't like more people would by hypercars if they only knew they existed---Most people don't buy these cars because they cost four times as much as a large house and are wildly impractical. People who can afford a million-dollar toy are few and far between. Racing wouldn't increase toe customer base by increasing interest.

Only the wealthiest manufacturers could afford the crazy costs of competition---and no one would want to lose. When a firm sells as few cars as Pagani or Koennigsegg, finishing fifth might make a difference. No new buyers would be created from this series, but existing potential buyers might choose Not to buy the " world's fifth-fastest supercar." So basically the publicity of losing could have enormous negative effects on a company which caters to an extremely limited and basically non-expandable customer base, and in any series, there could only be one winner.

With such a tiny and basically fixed customer pool, market share is really important---why would a tiny factory pay huge bucks for what is statistically almost guaranteed bad publicity?

And imagine if this hypercars couldn't outperform the P2s? How many races would be won by a more durable and almost as fast P2 car, and how would that upset class structure (not to mention upsetting the hypercar manufacturers?)

One reason for the top class being bespoke racing cars is survivability. A car designed to be incredibly light and incredibly fast can also be designed to be incredibly safe and durable---if the designers only focus on those things. Most hypercars also have to focus on attracting customers and offering those customers other amenities while also offering ridiculous (and likely rarely used) straight-line performance.

The engines are not designed to run flat-out all day long, and the chassis are not designed to withstand the stresses of racing and certainly not wrecking.

To build a car light enough and stiff/strong enough to compete at current P1 levels, the cart has to be designed to do nothing else. So, most hypercars would need complete rebuilds. And to function aerodynamically at those speeds ... one reason most prototypes look similar is the same reason most fighter jets (and even passenger airliners) look similar---a designer cannot afford both "style" and maximum performance. Form follows function and when the function is extreme, there simply isn't a lot of room to tack on "style" merely to create a brand.

Even further, the engine formula would need to be "use this much fuel per mile." With the vast variety in engines in the class, there really couldn't be other rules. So a car like the Bugatti Veyron might have to run slower on he track than the road car could just to meet fuel requirements? While a smaller, lighter car would be able to go faster? Not such a good advertisement.

I really don't see a way to have the top class of the world's fastest racing series be anything but a bespoke racer. I don't see enough manufacturers willing to design a new road-going hypercar car just to race it and I don't see any way to get them to convert their existing models. Financially just not feasible.

Sounds like a great idea, but I don't see how it could be done practically.

[lms]

Originally Posted by johntt

I think they should use supercars as the main class in the unified American series instead of the Frankenclass of DPs/P2s they're proposing. P2 numbers are looking very low for 2013 in ALMS and the issues with DPs are somewhat obvious. Call the supercar class GTP and have the 2014 merged GTE/GT3 class as the secondary class split into a Pro class and an Am class - call the Pro class GTO and the Am class GTU.

Leave P1/P2/GT Pro+Am alone for WEC/Le Mans, if it ain't broke etc.

my thoughts exactly.
a class of f70, mclaren p1, renault alpine etc would be awesome to watch, but such a "gt1" class doesnt belong to lemans or the wec. Also i fail to see why would such a gt class replace any lmp class. Lemans and the wec should absolutely keep the prototype + gt formula. Also, about what was said in the video, theres already a production based class at le mans, so there is no need to introduce another, the aco should be focusing on getting the gte-gt3 merger right.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

Are you talking about the possibility of having a Super GT/DTM/GTP-style cars on the unified American series? But wait, we're talking about hypercars as GT1 racers...

Seriously, there's no way hypercars could compete in GT1 on this current economy. And second, putting the GT-R and Corvette against the likes of Pagani, Koenigsegg, etc. would look out of place as demonstrated in 2010 and 2011 FIA GT1 season. (although the MC-12 is even look more out-of-place than the rest of the field)

What i'm saying is that instead of having any prototype classes the unified American series has a hypercar class instead.

[urdragon]

Interesting thread:

Originally Posted by Beetle

I'd like to see in GT1...

Pagani Huayra
Lamborghini Aventador
Ferrari F70
Porsche 918
Chevrolet C7
McLaren P1
Koenigsegg Agera R
Nissan GT-R
Aston Martin One-77
Audi R20 (possibly in 2016)

et cetera...

Most of this cars are exclusive-targeted hypercars with the greater I+D technologies to show the potential of the brands, it would be not possible to maintain this hypercars unless a combination of brand support (Like wec) or wealthy people covering the costs (BES).

Today trend in motorsports (out of F1) is manufacturer support or "Gentlemen" support, lets be serious, if so many million Euros cars are sold, if only a part of this wealthy people where interested on racing a PRO-AM class would be sustainable:

- 300 Stock veyron sold
- Grandsport + Supersport + SE
- + 100 pagani's
- + ??? koenisegggs
- + 20 Reventon
- + 20 Sesto elemento
- + 400 Ferrari enzo
- + 100 Mclaren f1
- + 50 Maserati MC12
- + 12 MC12 Corsa
- + 77 AMR one

- + other brands

Potential buyers more than a million € in two generations 15 years.

[Fogelhund]

So, we are going to create an ultra expensive GT category, where other expensive categories have failed, or are failing, and somehow expect that to be the marquee category of a new series?

Such a category might be a wonderful fantasy, but it is simply a fantasy without any link to reality.

[MJones94]

Like I said before, this is purely speculative, and yes whilst there are a lot of constraints that would trouble this series, I still think there could be potential in a few years when the economy is somewhat better.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

So, we are going to create an ultra expensive GT category, where other expensive categories have failed, or are failing, and somehow expect that to be the marquee category of a new series?

Such a category might be a wonderful fantasy, but it is simply a fantasy without any link to reality.

I do not agree with you on that one Fogelhund.

It might be near impossible to think of this with the current Sportscar rulebooks and it'd probably be very tough to create a rulebook in which named hypercars can be raced but let's face it, these cars should be raced nonetheless!

I mean Sportscar/GT racing can't take itself seriously any longer when the specs of the topclass roadcars far exceed the specs or performance of the LMP2's and GTE's can they?
On top of that, it's just a darn shame that fantastic machines such as the Zonda R, 599XX, MC12 Corsa and most all of the afore mentioned hypercars are bound to trundle along in dedicated one make 'playing hours' or some even completely banned from racing, or even driving, from the worlds tracks...

[TF110]

If the manufacturers make these cars and people want to race them theres obviously an interest. A series coould be made for specific cars like this.

[Maelochs]

I'd say, since the people who can afford these cars have so much money, and thuis influence.they could have easily found someone to organize a series---if they wanted to race. (I'd wager plenty of them are businesspersons of sufficient acumen they could probably start their own series and run it better than almost all of what we have out there now.)

People who buy these cars don't want to race---else they'd be racing, in those cars or something else.

People who buy those cars are either investors or people who want to make a certain type of public statement. If they really wanted to drive as fast as those cars could go --- they'd be on track doing it.

It seems like a good idea, until it is examined. As I mentioned, performance balancing would be a huge problem---no supercar manufacturer wants to have its product slowed down to race a competitor. Safety and suspension adju8tstablility would be two more huge issues.

Basically a customer would have to either buy a body in white or buy a $1,000,000 car and rip its guts out, then rebuild half of it to make it safe and to give it a competition-suited suspension.

Or, they could all run stock---fun to watch expensive things explode.

"I mean Sportscar/GT racing can't take itself seriously any longer when the specs of the topclass roadcars far exceed the specs or performance of the LMP2's and GTE's can they? "

Really up to you to decide that for yourself. Tell me, which of those supercars exceeds P2 performance? In a straight line and for one top-speed run? How about for a lap of Le Mans?

Seems to me the fastest times at the Nurburgring aren't held by supercars, but by racing cars. Let's see how many hours a Zonda lasts. Let's see if any of them can really stop like a P2, and let's see how they do after the 15th or 25th time, when the brakes are used up.

If performance is merely the manufacturer's claimed top speed, well, we should all be watching top fuel dragsters. Personally, I like sports car racing, and I'd put a P2 against any of the cars listed in an actual sports car race.

Really, though, none of what I think matters. if the people who can afford the cars want to race, they will race. The fact that they have all the ability they need to race their cars if they want. but choose not to, tells the story.

As for Grand Alms bringing in a Hypercar top class---Professional racing (as opposed to club racing) is a business. If the series organizers thought that a hypercar series would be profitable, they'd do it.

Think it through---manufacturers of either prototypes or competitive GT cars have to spend huge bucks to design and refine to produce a racing vehicle.

Who is going to put up the money to develop a racing version of Pagani Huayra or a Bugatti Veyron? Not the manufacturers, who don't need the advertising and likely couldn't afford to spend the millions with no RoI.

Therefore the owners---who already aren't racing---would have to spend the money to develop proper competition versions. Not likely, based on the fact that it hasn't happened.

So why would Grand Alms want to create a top class for cars which no one wants to actually build and race? How would that make sense?

Make no mistake---if those cars were to compete, I would be a huge fan. But ... the fact that we'd like stuff doesn't really make it happen---Otherwise we'd all be watching Camel GT and GTP cars, while waiting for the Can Am cars to run.

[TF110]

You're wrong if you don't think there's lots of owners that want to track their supercars, hypercars, sportscars etc. Where else are they going to be able to go all out with them? Because the streets aren't suitable. So why buy a car like this if it's not just a 'status symbol'? Even though a majority of owners may not track their cars, it doesn't take a majority to race! There's 4 LMP1's from the factory now. If there are 500 of these new Ferrari's, McLaren's, Koenigsegg's etc. it only takes 2 or 3 owners of each car to commit to this type of series. The FXX, the 599XX are just examples of million dollar plus vehicles in their own little series.

[MitchZ06]

Nice dream, financially horrific.

[TF110]

The people that own these cars aren't pressed for cash. If they want to run a series like this, they have the means. So no, it wouldn't be financially horrific. All you would have to do is stipulate the cars being a certain minimum weight and 'run what you brung' type attitude. Rules are rules, and if something like this ever took place you could be sure there would be some in place to keep things interesting. But I don't see it happening anytime soon, sadly.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by TF110

If the manufacturers make these cars and people want to race them theres obviously an interest. A series coould be made for specific cars like this.

My thoughts exactly, if there is a supply of cars and demand to go racing, it will happen in some capacity. Like I said before, McLaren never dreamed of racing the F1, yet did so and won Le Mans!

[MJones94]

We should write a petition to take all of the new hypercars the Sultan of Brunei is inevitably going to buy (I believe he had 4x McLaren F1's at one point!) and make him race them. Apparently they are hardly ever driven at all, just sold on for a profit.

If you have seen this guy's car collection, you will know what I mean!

PS: Apologies for the double post