Hybrid qualifying hypothetical

[zac510]

I was just thinking that without a restriction on the amount of recovered energy that can be used in one lap, a car could in qualifying do a series of laps (say half a dozen), recovering and storing enough energy to give one full qualifying lap of extra power, giving a better qualifying lap time.

Although adding more and more batteries to achieve this might be one of diminishing returns at this stage of their technology, given their weight.

[ss_collins]

Yep you have you answer there - battery weight and technology limitations.

However this could work well with a hydraulic KERS if your storage vessel could take the pressure.

All KERS have a finite storage capacity before they slow the thing down

[broadrun96]

plus I'm sure in the technical specs, unless they've been released, there will be limitations on how much input will be allowed from the hybrid vs the restrictor mandated. wouldn't be surprised to see some measure of electric power vs either engine size or restrictor just to minimize the dialing up of some extra input over the one lap (any more than other teams might by turning up the wink on the petrol or diesel cars)

[zac510]

That's why I made this a hypothetical question.
In the race you would be highly unlikely to do 6 slow laps to get one fast one.

Some safety car running may allow you to 'charge up' but given you'd have to put extra in to get extra back it's likely it would not be worth it.

Think of any other ways to maximise the use?

[AU N EGL]

That KERS system may only be for a push to pass with a little extra power. Not full laps under alternative power.

Wild guess here the alternative fuels, Cellulose E85, E10, or Race Diesel( not the diesel we put in our trucks or cars, plus a KERs system maybe the GREEN energy sources for racing.

[zac510]

I think you might have missed my point.

[Oldtony]

KERS or Hybrid energy is derived from recycling energy otherwise expende as heat in braking.
F1 KERS is limited in both grneration and storage by the regulations
LMP does not so far seem to have placed regulated limits on either system but most certainly the extra wieght of battery caried would give a situation of diminishing returns, and the use of lighter super capacitors would give a limitation in the length of time in which a charge could be effectively stored.
I doubt if lap times could be improved beyond the norm by KERS anymore thanby dialing in a different ECU map.

[AU N EGL]

actually I did. KERs or Hybrid may not be any faster. Until we see some hybrid technology at work, sanctioning bodies wont know how to 'performance balance' these cars.

Qualifing set ups are differnt the race set ups too. so I agree with

Originally Posted by OldTony

I doubt if lap times could be improved beyond the norm by KERS anymore thanby dialing in a different ECU map.

[I love 04s]

Little question/inquiry....

The Zytek 07s 4.5l that was running at PLM was the fastest petrol car over a stint out there....we all saw Watts dispatch that porsche and then open up a 5 second lead with minimum fuss.

Hearing that it will effectively be untouched by next years rules alterations, why would any team consider running anything else (edit- any new team)? Im not trying to promote Zytek/Ginetta as a brand or anything but it seems like such an obvious point.

On top of this you have the KERS system and the "extensive" aero upgrades that are coming on top. Its not out of the question to see them recovering the 1.5-2 second defecit to the diesels is it?? Obvs price comes into it, but teams like Intersport seem very well funded etc etc. Im sure Dyson could have real success with a two car team and there is no way it would cost more than running two porsches would it??

[zac510]

If it's an extra 40hp, that's 40hp that doesn't need to go through the inlet restrictor.

Not sure why the Zytek was so quick, were they not on Dunlops?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by zac510

If it's an extra 40hp, that's 40hp that doesn't need to go through the inlet restrictor.

Not sure why the Zytek was so quick, were they not on Dunlops?

IIRC the Zytek was not running their KERs system. they MAY run the KERs for Leguna.


and that 40 HP is for Occational use as in Push to pass or out of corners, not full time addition of 40 HP

and does not normal race 100 octane petrol have more energy then E10 or E85? I believe it does.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and that 40 HP is for OCCUPATIONAL use as in Push to pass or out of corners, not full time addition of 40 HP

Yes, if you subscribe to the media description or to the letter of F1 regulation of KERS.

However this thread is about maximising it in another way, or how teams may find other ways that KERS will benefit their lap time, thanks to the openness of the sportscar regulation (well, no regulations!).

There must be some great potential for new throttle mapping/strategies or augmenting parts of the power curve with this electric power available, almost literally, on demand.

[AU N EGL]

No one really knows. and why Mr Atherton said "we will have to see to demerit performance adjustments"


KERS may just slow cars down and be a total disadvantage for one reason or an other.

See if Zytek runs their KERS at Leguna.

[CTD]

Well funny thing.
Because back in the group C days, it was very normal for the turbo cars to yank up the turbo pressure to do a faster lap! (the Porsche got up to 1000 bhp!, as far as i recall). But wasn't this banned!?, because we don't see Audi or Peugeot doing this!?

[zac510]

They're limited by the amount of air they can suck through the inlet restrictor. They need more air for more boost!

[ger80]

Think thats not the problem with a diesel, but the maximum boost is limited in the rules. If your engine lasts the maximum boost during the complete race, why should they reduce it somewhere? They do during FCY, but thats it.

[JAG]

But they run different 'maps' or whatever you call them, it was said on RLM Peugeot dialed down the power in practice.

As for KERS, someone mentioned on here the 80bhp Zytek system would have 300lbft of torque, if they only used that coming out of the corners onto the long straights, they could match the diesels for punch.

Seeing how fuel efficient the Porsche direct injection RS Spyders were, can you imagine how potent performance wise, and in terms of using the KERS to increse mileage, they would be, even if running at 900kg.

[zac510]

Yes they all sound like good numbers!

As I mentioned before with the throttle mappings, they could potentially limit the amount of engine throttle (ie if the driver's foot is 100%, the ECU only lets the engine go to 85%) and supplement the engine power loss with the KERS recovered power to maintain the same laptime. So overall the car would not be faster, but with the petrol engine doing less work it would save fuel.

Then later if you need the pace, the KERS could be used on top of the full power from the petrol engine to give an even better laptime.

Now see if those ideas get your brain churning! There must be lots more ways the KERS can be used strategically instead of just giving more power.