F1 Fans Having A Say

[Pit_Lane_Babe]

Has anyone read the latest issue of AutoSport??
I was really interested in a part that was on about the new rules they have implied to F1 this year.
Max Mosley wants the F1 Fans to have a say in what they think the new rules have done to the races before they add anymore in the next few seasons He says that its like doing some "market research".
I was just wondering what you all think..............are you happy about the new rules?? If not, what would you change?? What do you think about Mr Mosley wanting the fans input??

:confused:

[ASCII Man]

Get rid of impounding the cars after qualifying, ban refueling, bring back slicks, open up engine configurations (V8's, V10's, V12's, etc.) and reduce aero downforce.

[f1manoz]

Keystrokes above has listed everything everyone has been repeating for the past 5 years!

[Pit_Lane_Babe]

Well maybe this time, someone might listen. We can only live in hope lol

[Glen]

Originally posted by f1manoz
Keystrokes above has listed everything everyone has been repeating for the past 5 years!

Not everyone, by any means: Impounding the cars improves the racing; refueling is ok by me; calling for slicks is partly a rose-tinted-nostalgia-glasses call; aero downforce gives us incredible cars and amazing performance...

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Glen
aero downforce gives us incredible cars and amazing performance...

True but it also stops them from being able to overtake each other or 'race' as it's otherwise known.

Dependence on the aerodynamic grip has killed overtaking, more mechanical grip (slicks) would allow cars to stick closer to the car in front through corners and have a better shot at getting past.

Lose refuelling as well - drivers sit behind the car in front and wait for the fuel stops, if they didn't have fuel stops they'd have to overtake on track.

Simple really:

Limit wing size/number of elements
Give 'em slicks
Ban refuelling

How hard can it be?

[BootsOntheSide]

I'm in agreement with Bert here, the huge rear wings are what makes it harder to overtake - a glance at some of the classic races suggests this. Mechancial grip is always better than aerodynamioc in that sense, it also means that the cars need more skill to drive. Wider, slick tyres aren't jsut a nostalgia element, they are proven to improve racing with no cost in safety.

[KC]

I think a huge culprit in the lack of overtaking comes down to carbon fiber brakes. Anyone can drive all the way down to the apex, jam on the brakes as hard as humanly possible and never give up a corner.

Go back to steel brake disks and watch the braking distances go up and the opportunities get better for passing. Does that mean a Minardi will be outbraking a Ferrari? No. A great car is still a great car and all the great cars have really good drivers.

Mechanical grip is always preferable to aerodynamic grip.

[Red]

Oh sheese, certainly max does NOT want to hear my say regarding his rules.

Originally posted by BertMk2
True but it also stops them from being able to overtake each other or 'race' as it's otherwise known.

Dependence on the aerodynamic grip has killed overtaking, more mechanical grip (slicks) would allow cars to stick closer to the car in front through corners and have a better shot at getting past.

Lose refuelling as well - drivers sit behind the car in front and wait for the fuel stops, if they didn't have fuel stops they'd have to overtake on track.

Simple really:

Limit wing size/number of elements
Give 'em slicks
Ban refuelling

How hard can it be?

Not again. Kids, I really don't know who started those legends (downforce does whatever etc and refuelling does something else, of course bad). Actually my old dilemma is WHY do they have to overtake each other.

[Bononi]

Take a look at 70's...


That's what we need.

[Adam43]

Sheese, no overtaking, that is bad. If wanting overtaking is childish then, hey, pass me my dummy!

This kid loves it. This kid would like refueling to be banned. This kid would like a reduction of electronic aids. This kid wants slicks. This kid, who likes F1 at the moment, but would still like many many changes.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Red
Oh sheese, certainly max does NOT want to hear my say regarding his rules.
Not again. Kids, I really don't know who started those legends (downforce does whatever etc and refuelling does something else, of course bad). Actually my old dilemma is WHY do they have to overtake each other.

The downforce argument is pure fact - cars can't follow each other closely around corners as the airflow over the wings is disturbed once they get close to the car in front (or non existent once they're sat on the exhausts - slipstreaming). No downforce results in no grip and they lose ground.

The refuelling side of things discourages drivers from having a crack at the car in front, they just sit behind it and wait for the stops - you hear drivers say that time and time again in interviews after the race. Dull. I want to see cars overtaking each other, I want to see ludicrous late braking (steel brakes as well - fine by me), I want to see overly ambitious moves that don't work.

I don't want to see cars drive around in procession at 180mph. They might as well give out the points after qualifying 1 - that's who is quickest around the circuit. I don't want to watch sprints and a pit stop challenge, I want to watch a race on track.

[Red]

"The cars can't follow" argument is NOT a fact. The cars CAN follow if driven by a guy willing to try. But tht was not my point. My point was WHAT THE HELL IS THE PURPOSE OF RACING!!! Is it overtakings? Sorry... kids ... I strongly disagree. This is a sport, and like in every other sport the goal is to win. Means leading from start to the end (no "entertainment")

As for the other "turbo/slicks/no aero cars" sorry... kids... but this is not what happens in real life. You want a Formula 1? Then you need to work towards keeping it. Demanding so mych changes means that 75% of the grid will dissapear in a couple of months, simply because they can't build this kind of cars. Asking fans what has to be done is the most idiot idea Max/Bernie might have. They already did too much damage last year.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Red
"The cars can't follow" argument is NOT a fact. The cars CAN follow if driven by a guy willing to try. But tht was not my point. My point was WHAT THE HELL IS THE PURPOSE OF RACING!!! Is it overtakings? Sorry... kids ... I strongly disagree. This is a sport, and like in every other sport the goal is to win. Means leading from start to the end (no "entertainment")

The wings push the car onto the track to give more grip.

If the air flow over the wing is disturbed the downforce is reduced.

If the downforce is reduced you can't corner as quickly as a car which has clean airflow over its wings.

Therefore it can't follow closely enough. Undisputable.



You're right in saying F1 is a sport and the goal is to win but unless you're starting from pole you have to overtake. Even if you have the best car you can't garauntee you're going to start every race from pole, overtaking is a vital part of F1, without it you might as well just do time trials. Why bother with the race? Why not just do qualifying and then go home? That would be a huge cost saving!

[Irv the Swerve]

F1 has - for the most part - always been the pinnacle of motoring technology, this is a fact. Some people want to see it stay that way, others would prefer if the cars were more basic yet more exciting. Unfortunately, the two sides of the arguement are very difficult to reconcile.

Its only ever going to be a compromise. I would prefer if the cars were more basic, refuelling was banned, aero reduced, slicks etc..without a risk to safety though.

Others would prefer them to be the pinnacle of technology - thats fair enough too, but I can't see how you could have both that and better racing - real racing I mean, not contrived use of the safety car to bunch the cars up. The seventies and eighties were about ideal (fifties/sixties not safe enough for me).

For what its worth

1. A one tyre formula
2. 3 litre - any configuration,
3. Slicks
4. Customer chassis
5. Customer engines
6. Vastly reduced aero
7. The old qually system
8. points for pole and fastest lap

[golem]

I've stated what I'd do many times before.

What they will do that I'd suggest is keep current qualifying mostly as is, with some minor tweaks to parc ferme and incenctive to pole position. I'd also slow RIGHT down the refuelling rigs. (ie: Force the monkeys to make the motors more fuel efficient and drop power, or be fast enough that a long long stop for fuel can be made safely. Oh, and it'd all be in the name of safety too. )

Universal Powertrain Management unit to ban traction control, launch control and so forth. Any other electronic device found processing signals related to the engine are illegal. Any electronics company can make it but it has to be exactly (down to the last transistor) as the 1 year advance arranged specification.
This is about the only real effective way I see of limiting traction control development programs and reigning it's costs in.

Limited leading/trailing edge aero ruling, which doesn't stop downforce and turbulance devices but one can be written so that the aero teams would have the same sort of rigid confines as the engine teams, requiring some lateral thinking to maximise, and making the bodywork and wings become more of one integrated unit again. (Which is where they're going to be heading soon I figure anyway)

All just guesswork but I think for the most part it'd help.

[Glen]

God - we have so been here! And no, Bert, it isn't simple really. Your argument is simple - overly simple. Your agrument ignores a load of other factors. In the 70s it was very common for a team to find seconds of extra performance from one race to another, or even between sessions in a weekend or within a race.The cars were able to circulate sometimes in close formation because they weren't as CONSISTENT and perfect as they are now. If a modern car can't lap at a similar speed it will not overtake. THAT is simple.

We need a much better understanding of how this works before statements like "bring back slicks = more overtaking" have any credibility.

[Red]

Originally posted by BertMk2
If the downforce is reduced you can't corner as quickly as a car which has clean airflow over its wings.

This is true. However you don't have to pass IN THAT CORNER. You can wisely decide to back off a bit, and try to outbrake the other guy in the next corner. It has been done before, it IS possible. Of course, that means no passings in Parabolica or Copse, but overtakings at Adelaide corner usually do happen.

Besides, the driver is always excluded. "The car couldn't pass because it had understeering and couldn't do miracles". Not because the driver in front blocked all sensible racing lines so the other one simply didn't have room to squeeze in front.

I did not say that overtakings are not fun. They are... but "vital"? Sorry, why is that? Why not just quallify and then just go home? Because anyone can put a blinding fast lap and go home. But formula 1 is more than that. (yes, the fuel strategy is also included in those "more than overtakings")

But you all still miss my point. Other series with single tyre manufacturers/less aero/less electronics/kit chassis-kit engines/whatever already exist. Formula 1 is different. Why would you want to kill an unique type of racing only because you're too lazy to use your TV remote control?

[Pit_Lane_Babe]

Bert: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean when you say there isn't any point overtaking.
I mean what would be a point in having a race at all?? Might as well do single lap qualifying and leave it as that and say whoever got the fastest lap wins. Otherwise that would mean they would finish in the same order they started in.

[krt917]

I think that is what Bert is trying to say. He is responding to those who DON'T think overtaking is important by saying that if you were to get rid of it completely then you might as well have a time trial or qualifying session and then go home.

I may be wrong, but I think that was what Bert was trying to - he likes overtaking (I'm with oyu on that one!).

I agree with Irv about it being difficult to reconcile the different approaches - ain't that right Glen!?

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Pit_Lane_Babe
Bert: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean when you say there isn't any point overtaking.
I mean what would be a point in having a race at all?? Might as well do single lap qualifying and leave it as that and say whoever got the fastest lap wins. Otherwise that would mean they would finish in the same order they started in.

I don't think I said that! (if I did didn't mean to ) That's Reds argument. I'm saying overtaking is an essential part of racing (any formula). Without it everyone could go home after qualifying 1 on a Friday. I'm all for anything that helps introduce more overtaking.

[Red]

Originally posted by Pit_Lane_Babe
Bert: I'm not really sure I understand what you mean when you say there isn't any point overtaking.

He's not saying that. It was me, but neither do I say this thing. I say that overtaking is NOT primary goal. Racing means you race hard and win the race. If you quallify first, lead the entire race and win by a 2 minutes gap to second this is a crushing win of the race, not "boring and rules had to be changed" race. Overtaking is the effect of racing.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by krt917
I may be wrong, but I think that was what Bert was trying to - he likes overtaking (I'm with oyu on that one!).

Spot on

Overtaking is good.
No overtaking is bad.

(I should probably have stuck to the simple version to start with - I can waffle on for hours without making a single coherent point) Much like this in fact.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Red
He's not saying that. It was me, but neither do I say this thing. I say that overtaking is NOT primary goal. Racing means you race hard and win the race. If you quallify first, lead the entire race and win by a 2 minutes gap to second this is a crushing win of the race, not "boring and rules had to be changed" race. Overtaking is the effect of racing.

But it would be far more impressive to qualify last (for whatever reason), overtake everybody and then win by 2 minutes.

[Pit_Lane_Babe]

Ok, so I typed the wrong person's name......shoot me why don't ya lol