Österreichring

[Edmonton]

What were the safety issues with the Österreichring?

[Adam43]

Too fast (and too exciting). The safety concerns where mainly with the Bosch Curve, I presume.

[Lee Janotta]

Actually, it was turn 1, Hella Licht, which was the biggest problem. They had to red flag the first 2 starts in the 1987 GP there, after that debacle the track was swiftly removed from the 1988 F1 calendar.

It was an evil corner which was turned into an even more evil right-left-right chicane. As you came towards the curve, you'd be going up a hill, but that hill would be slowly flattening out, and you had no damn way of seeing the apex, or much else in front of you. Extremely dangerous situation.

Also, even by the standards of the time, runoff areas were in _extremely_ short supply, especially on the banked corners.

The one thing which could really be done to try and bring it back would be to completely rework the current turn 1, and hook it up to the old Dr. Tiroch kurve, a big banked monster that's been left for nature to reclaim, rather than plowed under. Hook that back up to the straight between turns 2 and 3, leading into the turn 3 hairpin. Could work well.

[DNQ]

The track wa salso very narrow, with inadaquete run off. I think it was more this that resulted in the '87 pileups then Hella Licht to be honest, although the uphill gradient towards T1 would not have helped in the slightest.

A great track

[Muzza]

Right on, DNQ.

And I believe that you are aware that Dietrich Mateschitz (owner of Red Bull and motorsport fanatic) just bought the A1-Ring (a horrid name for a horrid track), in a consortium with other investors (some in Austria believe that Volkswagen is behind this).

The new owners of the track have announced plans to make the track "more challenging and exciting", but they will not commit to any work until Austria is granted a GP back (Austria is out of the calendar for next season).

[racer69]

The 1987 crashes happened well before turn 1 i thought, just after the start.

The old track was a ripper. Considering what they did to it with the A1-Ring, i probably could have accepted a chicane at the Bosch Curve or wherever.

I was under the impression it got dropped because of financial issues, and the facilities (pits etc...) weren't up to scratch.

[Edmonton]

Originally posted by Muzza
Right on, DNQ.

And I believe that you are aware that Dietrich Mateschitz (owner of Red Bull and motorsport fanatic) just bought the A1-Ring (a horrid name for a horrid track), in a consortium with other investors (some in Austria believe that Volkswagen is behind this).

The new owners of the track have announced plans to make the track "more challenging and exciting", but they will not commit to any work until Austria is granted a GP back (Austria is out of the calendar for next season).

Any ideas on what they would do? Hopefully they will rebuild a bunch of the old track.

[Muzza]

Hello Edmonton (land of the most beautiful girls in Canada - lucky you),

No, no plans have been disclosed regarding the Osterreichring overhaul as of yet. Things are on a standstill now: Mateschitz said that the new owners will not pursue any works unless Austria gets its GP back - and of course there are many other reasons rather than the track lay-out that make a country keep its GP or not... (Bahrein and China may well answer that).

On the other hand, I remember an interview with Mateschitz when he praised the old Osterreichring lay-out, so it is possible that some of it will be recovered.

Indeed, the transformation of the old, mighty Osterreichring into the extremely lousy A-1 gets the "Lousiest Track Lay-out Revamp Ever" award. Not like Interlagos, encroached in a neighbourhood and surrounded by houses and buildings, there was plenty of space to increase the run-off areas in Zeltweg. Not like Estoril, the surrounding topography was not a challenge - instead, it could have been played in favor of the circuit. But the designers opted for a silly, simple, unispired solution anyway (that nevertheless costed a fortune).

Lee Janotta (with whom I rarely disagreee): the reasons for the demise of the old Osterrechring were the width of the track - most notably at the start/finish straight - and the condition of infrastructure of the circuit (most of the boxes, press room and paddock dated back to the early 70s). The Hella-Licht Turn - where Mark Donohue perished in 1975 - was not mentioned by the FIA.

Bring back the real Osterreichring,

[Lee Janotta]

Ah, thanks Muzza. Please, feel free to disagree with me whenever I get something wrong!

[Lee Janotta]

Y'know, I've been working on this for a while. As far as the topography, placement of forests, grandstands, buildings, etc, it's entirely feasable. I've gotten trickles of information from family members in Austria, and little snippets of information, which suggest that the Dr. Tiroch Kurve is still where is always was, just in a state of total disuses and disrepair. This is the only aerial shot I've been able to find, though, and it doesn't reveal much at all.



So... Here's my design for der Neue Österreichring. Portions of the current A-1 Ring are in red, the old, disused, broken-up sections of the old ring are in black, and new portions of my own design are in grey.

It's not perfectly to scale, but it's a servicable representation.

[Lee Janotta]

And actually, Donahue didn't die in the crash, but 3 days later. He appeared fine right after the crash, then collapsed the next day. To me, that's the most depressing part of the story.

[Lee Janotta]

C'mon guys! Love it? Hate it? Gimme some feedback!

[Fish_Flake]

You want feedback? I'll give you feedback. I don't like the Rindtkurve. I'd rather see it be the long 180º sorner it once was, I hate those tight corners. Same thing with that one black corner in the middle.

[Lee Janotta]

Ah, well, I was trying to be, y'know, realistic... But thanks nonetheless!

[Fish_Flake]

Why does everything have to be realistic with you anymore, Lee?

[Lee Janotta]

I dunno. Clinical depression over the state of CART? WRC withdrawl?

Maybe I just like a challenge.

[gfm]

Lee & Muzza – I am enjoying reading your views on the A1 Ring. I raced there as far back as 73 – 74, when Donohue had his accident, the highlight of competing there in the Super-VW class was finishing 7th – 1.7 seconds behind the winner! Just like Silverstone and Hockenheim, it was extremely high speed, but it’s significant difference were the vertical curves and slopes. And of course, the most beautiful setting in the foothills of the Styrian Mountains.
I remember the circuit which was chicane-less over the brow after the start/finish straight (think about it!), and had some super-demanding high speed corners where the car’s weight (vertical curves) and geometry were put to a real test. And yes, it was dangerously fast and narrow. Widening it was just going to make it faster, hence the requirement for slower sharper corners.
I was back there just a year ago with GT3R Porsches so I’m familiar with it recently.
Lee, if you’re continuing your thoughts for the new Osterreichring, then your drawing needs to include these topographical features.
I think you guys are probably banging your heads against a brick wall, because it’s impossible to go back to the circuits as they were. Sadly, if a circuit is going to stand on it’s own feet financially today, it needs to be suitable for F1. Such is the current trend of race cars, technology, tyres, safety and TV, that unless they race on sanitised designer built stadiums, they don’t work and become dangerous.
I need to be careful what I say now, as I am a member of the BRDC and therefore extremely interested in what’s going on at Silverstone (about half an hour up the road from here). Some three years ago, I wish our Club had called Ecclestone’s bluff and had chosen a path where the circuit was not reliant upon revenue from the GP in order to exist. This may have been very difficult, but IMHO preferable to having to dance to the tune of what’s now little more than a hi-tech circus that will perform in any suitable stadium anywhere in the world on the back of 10 million dollars (or whatever). But the changes wrought on Silverstone, not a characterful place we happily admit, are the changes that the A1 Ring and Hockenheim had to endure too.
Fact is modern race cars and particularly Formula One cars, cannot go back to where aerodynamics and tyres do not demand constant conditions to work well. It’s a fact that will change and maybe damage ‘racing’ in anything other than road car derivations (less aeros, more suspension travel, greater bulk), as we know it completely.
Therefore the challenge to which you refer is to retain the character of the original road setting at a place where enough people will want to race other cars in sufficient numbers. And if you don’t, if there are 20 F1 GP type stadiums in the world, it’s a more profitable solution to use the land for dwellings and supermarkets.
If you can identify the middle path, where all future interests are accommodated, something like present day Silverstone, you’ll be doing a terrific job. But then of course, you’ll need to be sure that Bernie likes you!
I apologise for this long post.

[Lee Janotta]

gfm, thanks for the post. Actually, I've been doing a lot of research on the topography. I've got a collection of on-board laps that I'm constantly adding to, I use every photo and mapping resource I can find... Everything except actually visiting the sites (on account of being, y'know, broke). I even do my utmost to consider the spectators, access system, basically everything. I'm not claiming to be an Alan Wilson or John Hugenholtz, mind you, just a dedicated amateur.

If F1 cars can still survive with all the bumps and elevation changes at Monaco and Interlagos, then I don't think we give them quite enough credit for durability.

By the same token, the tracks I design and re-design really depend on some future change in motorsport leadership. Either we'll someday emerge from this dark age of politicians running the sport, or the sport won't even be worth watching.

That said, there's a lot that can be done with the new "soft walls", and even plain old tire barriers, that Tilke and the FIA don't even consider.

[gfm]

Interesting Lee and well done.
I think you're right on a number of points.
Visiting Osterreich you'd really enjoy the place, although another feature of the track is that is actually a long way from anywhere. A 120 mph 120 degree right hander with the circuit rise or falling is very good to race on, and Austria's strength was just that.
At Monaco, the speeds are extremely low and that's how they get away running there. Just look at the mess they got into in Brazil last week. Very lucky to come away with no serious injuries. Those two examples for me are good examples of how ill-equipped F1 are, for anything other than stadium type racing conditions.
I absolutely with you on the change of motorsport leadership at this time. For my money, for all the wonderful things he has done, Bernie for me is now blowing it and I'd like to see Martin Brundle take his place. Some big change is in the wind otherwise I agree with you, the sport, and quite soon with F1, won't be worth watching.

[Lee Janotta]

"Ralf misses his braking point and goes across the green tarmac there. That used to be all gravel. They make it too easy for these drivers these days. They should have poles in there with spikes."

"If you can't overtake here in a Formula 1 car then there's something wrong with the car, not the race-track."

-Martin Brundle

I'm with you John!

Then again...

"If I was still a Grand Prix driver, and the team said to me 'OK, you can miss one race each year, which one will it be?' I'd say Hockenheim for the German Grand Prix here. Why? Because the place scares me a little bit. Other circuits scare you, but they thrill you at the same time."

-also Martin Brundle

Hmm...

[Speed Demon]

Well, I think Brundle was referring to the butchered Hockenheim where drivers head flat out towards a concrete wall...