Super GT what do you think?

[Nivola]

What does everyone think of SUPERGT?

I was lucky enough to be at the Malaysian Round on the weekend. I must say I could not believe the quality of the show. The standard in the cars was stagering and the respect from everyone in the pits was amazing.

Im just wondering what everyone else thinks of this series?

[watermelon]

yea i was also at the event also and agree the cars and the way the series is presented is probably the best in the world... the cars are basically prototypes and the only thing that resembles there road going versions is the shape...

I'd like to see V8's in Aust take a look at the aggresive aero on the cars as they really make the V8's look pretty tame...

Any idea how they'd compare to a lap time of a FIA GT, Aust V8, DTM or other cars>?

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by watermelon

I'd like to see V8's in Aust take a look at the aggresive aero on the cars as they really make the V8's look pretty tame...

Any idea how they'd compare to a lap time of a FIA GT, Aust V8, DTM or other cars>?

And I've been hoping DTM would take a step towards V8's and reduce aero.

The lap time question pops up every now and then. IIRC GT500 is faster than FIA GT1 and DTM is about as fast as GT1.

[Mr Revhead]

im sure they've recently made rule changes to make the supergt cars comparable with the FIA GT cars, and FIA GT cars are now eligible for the super gt class.

[Mr Revhead]

check out the "whats super gt" link
http://supergt.net/en/

[vw_nut]

super gt is ok but i don;t thuink they could match the fia gt1 after seeing them at le mans be interesting if they entered le mans again to see how would do

[AU N EGL]

I have seen some super GT races on TV. They were great. However, I feel it is time for some of these auto manufactures to step up their game and move into LMS, ALMS and FIA GT2 or GT1 racing.

[ss_collins]

GT500 is about LMP2 pace - way way quicker than GT1.

I saw them at Fuji last year - fantastic really really entertaining and they put on a great show.

However, I feel it is time for some of these auto manufactures to step up their game and move into LMS, ALMS and FIA GT2 or GT1 racing

why? they believe they have the best tin top series in the world, they certainly have the fastest, and the racing is really good. GT1/GT2 would be a step down. LMS and ALMS do not allow them (though they should)

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

I have seen some super GT races on TV. They were great. However, I feel it is time for some of these auto manufactures to step up their game and move into LMS, ALMS and FIA GT2 or GT1 racing.

According to the attendance numbers and at least domestic TV coverage, it'd be time for FIA GT and LMS to move into SuperGT racing.

Pretty much everyone agrees that they put on a fantastic show, the cars are spectacular, the racing hard and fast and the grids filled to the brim.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Satorian

Pretty much everyone agrees that they put on a fantastic show, the cars are spectacular, the racing hard and fast and the grids filled to the brim.

Very true, but to Japan / Asia is not where the majority HIGH PRICED sports cars are sold. Europe and the US are.

Porsche, Ferrari, AM sell more then 50% of their cars they produce to the US market.

I beileve you guys who say the SHOW is great. But is it just a show? and not for marketing purposes of that brand?

Until these GT500 or Super GT race cars get into a LMS or ALMS race ( conform to the rules as well ) we will never know HOW good they really are.

Lap times dont mean squat, which you guys know. Finishing first ahead of other world super sports cars is IMHO the real test.

[ss_collins]

Imagine a DBR9 GT500

[vw_nut]

i just klike to see how good these cars are afainst the best that the fia and other series has to offer

[ThePenguin]

Unless these cars start racing under FIA regulations, we probably will not see the Super GT cars race against American and European GT1 cars like the C6Rs and the DBR9s.

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Very true, but to Japan / Asia is not where the majority HIGH PRICED sports cars are sold. Europe and the US are.

But what's the use when the people that are supposed to buy them in Western regions don't watch the series?

I beileve you guys who say the SHOW is great. But is it just a show? and not for marketing purposes of that brand?

Of course it's for marketing purposes. All racing except gentlemen racing is for marketing purposes.

Until these GT500 or Super GT race cars get into a LMS or ALMS race ( conform to the rules as well ) we will never know HOW good they really are.

This point defeats itself. If they conformed with FIA/ACO GT1, they wouldn't be SuperGT cars anymore. Which in turn means we won't get to know "how good they really are" either way.

Lap times dont mean squat, which you guys know. Finishing first ahead of other world super sports cars is IMHO the real test.

They could claim exactly the same. I think your western-centric point of view isn't well-represented. Send the GT1 in to the Pukka 1000 on Suzuka then.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

Unless these cars start racing under FIA regulations, we probably will not see the Super GT cars race against American and European GT1 cars like the C6Rs and the DBR9s.

Here is the KEY. Running the same rules.

The majority of supper car buys may not watch the ALMS or LMS races, but they do see the adverts generated by racing.

[watermelon]

Do GT1 cars follow the same chassis/ suspension geo as their road going conterparts? The reason i ask is that i think Super GT cars are "true" race cars and build from the ground up as a race car with only the shape reflecting the road going versions...

in effect a prototype with a body on top as if you look inside these cars you'll see full F1 style wishbone suspension which would me me think it would be very difficult for a GT1 car to compete with a super GT car...?? (however i could be wrong)

I'm a bit busy right now but if anyone has the time i guess one way we could get a very rough comparasion for lap times is compare-

sepang SuperGT times V.S sepang MotoGP times

then find a similar layout track where both FIA GT1 race and MotoGP race in euro and compare the difference...

Just to get an idea... anyone?

[Speed-King]

I think Super GT500 is much closer to the DTM than to the ACO or FIA GTs. It's basically sports prototypes disguised as road cars and equally targeted not at the Supercar buyers, but at the mainstream market. This is why the GT500 cars are suppossed to look like medium priced performance cars and not like Super cars. Just like in the early years of the new DTM when they ran the Astra-coupé, CLK and TTs. DTM switched back to four door sedans due to its touring car background which doesn't exist in Japan. But even the 350Zs ,NSXs and whatever the Lexi are called are much more mainstream vehicles than Ferrari 550s, DBR9s or Saleens.
So there's no real reason for Japanese manufacturers to enter ALMS/LMS/FIA-GT with those cars. For a mainstream effect there cars would be much better placed in DTM or even NASCAR! Because Super GT has just that standing in Japan. It's a national top-series with a high mainstream appeal.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by watermelon

Do GT1 cars follow the same chassis/ suspension geo as their road going conterparts? The reason i ask is that i think Super GT cars are "true" race cars and build from the ground up as a race car with only the shape reflecting the road going versions...


Just to get an idea... anyone?

GT1 cars start with STOCK frames, then are built into race cars or semi tube frame cars. The only thing Stock on the Corvette is the steel frame. I also heard but not confirmed that the DBR9 is also on a stock frame, then built up around the frame.

[geeteeone]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

GT1 cars start with STOCK frames, then are built into race cars or semi tube frame cars. The only thing Stock on the Corvette is the steel frame. I also heard but not confirmed that the DBR9 is also on a stock frame, then built up around the frame.

True, but unlike Super GT, the engine and gearbox orientation in GT1 have to match the road car, and the block has to be derived from the same block used in the road car. I also believe the suspension mounting points have to be something like that used on the road car, although the suspension itself is free.

In Super GT, you can put the engine where you like, rotate it, have a completely different engine to the road car, different suspension mounting points, different gearbox. And as for aero/body shape, the only thing on Super GT that has to match the road car is the cockpit area AFAIK.

Incidentally, a few years back (2000/2001/2002 ish), European GT racers were allowed into the Suzuka 1000km in an invitational class, where they raced against pukka GT500 Super GT cars. The Super GTs were something like 4 seconds a lap quicker than the quickest GT1s of the time, despite running less horsepower.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by vorsprung

And I've been hoping DTM would take a step towards V8's and reduce aero.

I 100% agree.


SuperGT works because it is heavily supported by the Japanese manufacturers. If SuperGT is so great and succesful for these manufacturers, why do they not start a series in Europe and US? Maybe because these Japanese brands have less support over here? Compare it with DTM. Mercedes and Audi have many fans in Germany and races are well attented (over 100,000 people) but outside Germany the interest is much lower (race at Brands Hatch had around 18,000 visitors).

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by geeteeone

And as for aero/body shape, the only thing on Super GT that has to match the road car is the cockpit area AFAIK.

If I remember well this is correct.

[geeteeone]

Originally Posted by watermelon

...it would be very difficult for a GT1 car to compete with a super GT car...?? (however i could be wrong)

Last year, Team Goh made an attempt to convert a Maserati MC12 to GT500 specs. Despite running with a full-width rear wing and very generous restrictors, they couldn't get within 2 seconds of the fastest GT500s - so they canned the project.

Previous efforts to bring GT1 cars up to GT500 speed haven't worked either, JLOC have dropped down to GT300 after failing to match the GT500s with the Murcielago R-GT, and the Hitotsuyama Prodrive Ferrari 550 was converted back to ACO spec to take part in the JLMC.

The McLarens did reasonably well in GT500 for a short while, even scoring a win, but they of course were old-school GT1 cars with better aero and lower base weight, making it easy to balance the car with ballast.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by geeteeone

True, but unlike Super GT, the engine and gearbox orientation in GT1 have to match the road car, and the block has to be derived from the same block used in the road car.

No differnt blocks too

I also believe the suspension mounting points have to be something like that used on the road car, although the suspension itself is free.

Close but not exact

In Super GT, you can put the engine where you like, rotate it, have a completely different engine to the road car, different suspension mounting points, different gearbox. And as for aero/body shape, the only thing on Super GT that has to match the road car is the cockpit area AFAIK.

Ok then they are close to protypes then FIA / ACO GT cars.

Incidentally, a few years back (2000/2001/2002 ish), European GT racers were allowed into the Suzuka 1000km in an invitational class, where they raced against pukka GT500 Super GT cars. The Super GTs were something like 4 seconds a lap quicker than the quickest GT1s of the time, despite running less horsepower.

Diffent cars and differnt rules to set up the cars.

[pitviper]

If I am not mistaken (and I don't recall right now what track it was) but the GT500 NSX was running times the same as the Team Goh Audi R8.

I think if you take a good look at the GT500 cars, you will get a good idea of what the new P1 regulations are going to look like, and I for one, am ALL FOR IT. These cars are spectacular to look at, they show off the latest cutting edge technology, they are fast, they put on a great show... All of the elements are in place. I have shared ss collins' view of these machines for quite a while now (great RE piece on them, btw sam, I still pick it up from time to time to look back at it).

Imagine for a moment what the LM grid could look like with a set of rules like this... Imagine a Ferrari built to these rules... how about a Pagani, or an Aston Martin, or a Viper? The best from Japan taking on the best from Europe, and the best from the Americas... Cars that are pure beastly prototypes, but have just enough familiarity in their shape that the fan base a real chance to see some steady growth. I love the looks of both the current GT1 cars, as well as the current prototypes, but I certainly see how moving toward the "Super GT" look could really bridge the gap for a lot of fans and boost the track attendance as well as the TV viewership. i don't think I would ever really want it to get to the level of F1, but there is lots of room before that happens. I would love to see a battle like that take place over 24 hours at LM, or over 6 Hours in the LMS, or at Sebring, or PLM... wouldn't you?

pit

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by geeteeone

In Super GT, you can put the engine where you like, rotate it, have a completely different engine to the road car, different suspension mounting points, different gearbox. And as for aero/body shape, the only thing on Super GT that has to match the road car is the cockpit area AFAIK.

http://supergt.net/supergt/2006/06whats/06tcreg_en.htm

Engine must be by same manufacturer, legal for road use and within engine compartment.
Suspension can be freely altered, but must work with removed engine.
Car's body has to match road car in dimension, except for flared fenders (not beyond 2m total width though) and overhangs that can be extended to a specific value if too short.