[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Born Racer]

Mark's had the measure of all his team-mates, some highly-rated ones too, yet many are not convinced he's better than average.

I think Vettel will be a bit better than him, but that Mark will show well. I fear the perception will be that Webber is not up to much if Vettel is even a bit ahead (like the idea that Raikkonen's suddenly lost it/unmotivated because Massa had a very good season).

[duke_toaster]

I think Vettel will absolutely wipe the floor with Webber. How well Vettel does against other cars is an issue, it depends how much tweaking the Renault powerplant has been allowed. He might not have that much of a good year if the Renault doesn't get much because the engine at least appeared to be a pile of poo much of the season last year.

[Graz]

I've never seen in Webber what many others do. He is a good bloke and he can be quick over a qualy lap but he's not a good racer imo. I'm pretty tired of hearing about Webber and his bad luck on race days - he's just not good enough period. Vettel is the real deal and will murder Webber.

[Born Racer]

Vettel may be the real deal, but that doesn't mean Webber's not somewhere a bit closed. Look how he wiped the floor with Coulthard this year (a guy who was once somewhere near Hakkinen).

[Graz]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Vettel may be the real deal, but that doesn't mean Webber's not somewhere a bit closed. Look how he wiped the floor with Coulthard this year (a guy who was once somewhere near Hakkinen).

Not a good comparison - Hakkinen always comfortably had the measure of DC over the course of a season and this year was at least one season too far for DC.

Latching onto some of the other posts, will Vettel disappoint? He won't but perhaps the Red Bull might.

Nick Heidfeld is a solid number 2, nothing more

Mark Webber has never had an outstanding team mate against him - until now. Let's indeed revisit mid season and purely on pace (both race and qualy) rather than car reliability, let's see where things stand.

Also Webbo's broken leg is a bummer but hopefully this won't be wheeled out as a reason for Vettel beating him - other drivers have suffered worse and come back

[ScotsBrutesFan]

"wiped the floor" I'd say was a bit strong.

And even at that, is that really that great an achievement over a driver in the twilight of his career who had already made it known that it was his final year racing in F1.

Webber is distinctly average, nothing more. Given equal equipment Vettel will show him up as such.

[Born Racer]

Do you think Heidfeld is average?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Do you think Heidfeld is average?

Ah as soon as your comments about Couthard are put into some perspective you switch to enquire about someone else... nice trick that.

I think that there are many drivers in F1 at the moment that are of an average (in F1 terms), there are very few who could mount a championship challenge. I think part of this comes from drivers using their wallet rather than proven talent to gain entry into F1.

And no I'm not suggesting that Webber is one of those before the Webber fanboys come hunting.

[Born Racer]

Ah as soon as your comments about Couthard are put into some perspective you switch to enquire about someone else... nice trick that.

You see where I'm going, clearly.
But I disagree about perspective. So what if Coulthard was retiring? I think the margin by which he was beaten by Webber shows Mark was doing a damned good job.

[duke_toaster]

DC was good but became past his best and could have retired after 2007. Vettel could win a WDC, and that was a little bit visible after his debut in the BMW, whilst Webber came in to it later he never was a serious risk.
BR, since you mentioned him, I don't think Heidfeld is part of the future for BMW, Kubica beat him well this year despite a few silly errors. Heidfeld sometimes didn't even get through to Q2 on a semi-regular basis.

[Raven]

Lap for lap, I'm expecting it to be pretty close between the two. I think Vettel will end the season with more points on the board however. Webber will falter with his usual bad starts, mechanical woes and crashes/collisions.

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally I think Vettel should easily have the measure of Webber in 2009 for the majority of the season. Sure Webber might ocassionally beat him on track but for the most part I'm expecting Vettel to be the dominant force in the team. As others have said, I too have never really seen what all the hype is about regarding Webber, ive watched him from his F3000 days and even back then he wasnt outshining his competitors such as Bourdais, Enge, Wilson, all of who are great drivers in their own right but perhaps not F1 superstars with the possible exception of Bourdais.

If Webber cant soundly beat drivers of that calibre how can he ever hope to rival drivers like Kubica, Hamilton, Massa, Raikkonen and Alonso? Vettel isnt quite perhaps at their level just yet, or at least he isnt proven at their level yet.

[Born Racer]

Vettel's a quick learner, but I don't know if there's more pace to come from him.

[Bononi]

I think Vettel will surprise everyone.

[ralf fan]

Vettel will beat Webber. Webber is a good driver. I reckon Vettel is better even at 10 years old.

[Born Racer]

I think Vettel will surprise everyone.

Do you think he will disappoint? Expectations are high.

[Bononi]

Nope, the contrary. Actually he might not even end his season at RBR...

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Nope, the contrary. Actually he might not even end his season at RBR...

Punted because he is too slow perhaps?

[spectator22]

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate. Some facts/thoughts; (a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential? (b) Webber has prevailed over every team-mate (possible exception, briefly, Heidfeld); what else can you do? Yes, hes never partnered Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc, but just as relevant, how recently have any of them been stuck in a midfield team. I think this will be one of the shocks of 2009, and illustrate just how short memory some people have, and how easily they are influenced by one or two performances (and how desperate f1 is for a new star). I look forward to revisiting this discussion around July/Aug 09

[Born Racer]

Me too. I'm prepared to be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), but I'm looking forward to it.

Let's all hope however that Webber's 2009 preparations are not adversely affected by his accident.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by spectator22

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate. Some facts/thoughts; (a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential? (b) Webber has prevailed over every team-mate (possible exception, briefly, Heidfeld); what else can you do? Yes, hes never partnered Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc, but just as relevant, how recently have any of them been stuck in a midfield team. I think this will be one of the shocks of 2009, and illustrate just how short memory some people have, and how easily they are influenced by one or two performances (and how desperate f1 is for a new star). I look forward to revisiting this discussion around July/Aug 09

All his background and stats means nothing in this case. It's a different situation altogether. A young driver that performed like anybody in the current grid or past Webber's team mates. Different car, different rules. Not the same situation anyway.
Let's wait and see.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by spectator22

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate.

Me.

Some facts/thoughts; (a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential?

Jarno Trulli. I'm not sure if Mark genuinely has lifted the car above its potential, the main issue with the car is either that it has lower race potential or the fact that there are Trabants that are more reliable than the Red Bull, especially last year.

(b) Webber has prevailed over every team-mate (possible exception, briefly, Heidfeld); what else can you do? Yes, hes never partnered Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton etc, but just as relevant, how recently have any of them been stuck in a midfield team. I think this will be one of the shocks of 2009, and illustrate just how short memory some people have, and how easily they are influenced by one or two performances (and how desperate f1 is for a new star).

I look forward to revisiting this discussion around July/Aug 09

Let's look at Mark Webber's team-mates

2002 at Minardi - Alex Yoong (0 points). 2 points thanks to a 5th place at Australia. Aided by the fact that eight cars went out in the space of a few hundred meters at T1. Yoong is probably a nice guy, but it wasn't his talent that got him in to F1.
2003 at Jaguar - Team-mates are Justin Wilson and Antonio Pizzonia. OK, he handed the latter's butt back to him on a plate but you'd expect most F1 drivers to do, if one is a paydriver and the other is now doing Superleague Formula on the "way down".
2004 at Jaguar - Christian Klein hasn't set the world on fire in anything with wheels.
2005 at Williams - 4 points down on Heidfeld at the end of the season, if you exclude the races that Heidfeld was injured for. And Heidfeld never was race winner material.
2006 at Williams - Only beat a rookie that still isn't doing well by three points.
2007 at Red Bull - Were bookies taking bets on who would get the hydraulics failiures last year?
2008 at Red Bull - You'd expect most people to beat a DC that's a bit past it for F1 but not sensible enough for endurance.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by spectator22

(a) is there anyone in f1 who has consistently lifted average cars above their qualifying potential?

Both of the Toro Rosso drivers.

And hey, look, one of those was Seb Vettel!


Vettel is going to clean house against Webber. It's going to be a no contest.

[Born Racer]

I may be seen to be a pedant here, but this thing about lifting a car above its potential- clearly the potential is there, so it is not possible.

I disagree anyway that the Toro Rosso drivers did that. They had a good car with a better engine than Red Bull. Credit to them. They are a well-run race team. But it was a customer car victory.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by spectator22

Okay all you committedWebber knockers/Vettel bandwagon jumpers (above) - who of you is prepared to hand $10 to the charity of your choice when Webber, as he has done all along, gets on top of his team-mate.

That is a little vague. What is your bet?
Can people who aren't Webber knockers/Vettel bangwagon jumpers have a go?