All 4WO - 10-Tenths Motorsport Forum

Chigley · 4 Jul 2012, 00:33

This little gem from the MSA will upset a few and IMHO well done the MSA for having the gonads to finally clamp down on running wide. As I read this paper you can't run wide with one wheel let alone have virtually all of the car rally Xcrossing.

pauln · 4 Jul 2012, 06:10

That's how I read it too. But redefining the limit to include kerbs.

bigorangeoveralls · 4 Jul 2012, 07:07

having had a quick read of paper it seems that a driver can not touch a kerbe

flying muppet · 4 Jul 2012, 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigorangeoveralls

having had a quick read of paper it seems that a driver can not touch a kerbe

Think you should read it again!

So for 2013 the kerbs ARE to be considered part of the track, but 1 or 2 wheels beyond the kerb or white line is no longer acceptable...

Sounds easier to police than the current situation, where 2 wheels on the grass is fine, but 4 is not.

Norbert · 4 Jul 2012, 07:55

I read this to mean that kerbs are now to treated as part of the track edge and therefore fair game. Therefore any driver getting any wheel of their car over the white line that is not a kerb (e.g grass or unpainted tarmac) should be reported.

If these rules are imposed for next year the chicane at Thruxton will be interesting! On both the second and third apex it is possible to virtually straightline by having all 4 wheels on the kerbing. If my interpretation is correct then expect the lap records to tumble next year as the corner will only require 2 direction changes as opposed to three!

I also read the last paragraph to say that green flags will need to be shown for both formation and green flag laps. I know some circuits those laps are one in the same but at certain circuits (e.g. Thruxton) the cars leave the assembly area and do a full lap to form up on the grid (formation lap) before doing a further greem flag lap. At the monent the green flag is only shown for the latter.

deley · 4 Jul 2012, 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norbert

I also read the last paragraph to say that green flags will need to be shown for both formation and green flag laps. I know some circuits those laps are one in the same but at certain circuits (e.g. Thruxton) the cars leave the assembly area and do a full lap to form up on the grid (formation lap) before doing a further greem flag lap. At the monent the green flag is only shown for the latter.

The intention of the rule change is to remove the discrepency between Q5.1.2 which states a Green flag is to be shown "during each formation lap" and Q15.1 (i) which states a Green flag is to be shown "during the formation lap".

All the change does is to make it "each". It clarifies the situation where there are for example 2 green flag laps before a race due to change of conditions from practice/qualifying - the green should be for both laps and not just the first (currently depending on which reg you read it could be either).

As you say, sometimes cars go from assembly / pits around the circuit to the grid and then have the "green flag lap" from grid to grid followed by race start - the first of these is not the formation lap IMO but is purely cars to grid and so doesn't need the GF, the second is and does.

Dave

Norbert · 4 Jul 2012, 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by deley

As you say, sometimes cars go from assembly / pits around the circuit to the grid and then have the "green flag lap" from grid to grid followed by race start - the first of these is not the formation lap IMO but is purely cars to grid and so doesn't need the GF, the second is and does.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I understand what you are saying but the 2 laps are always referred to as the 'formation' and 'green flag' laps respectively. Perhaps some MSA clarification needed?

Bodysnatcher · 4 Jul 2012, 09:37

re the green flag ruling

Quote:

Originally Posted by deley

The intention of the rule change is to remove the discrepency between Q5.1.2 which states a Green flag is to be shown "during each formation lap" and Q15.1 (i) which states a Green flag is to be shown "during the formation lap".

All the change does is to make it "each". It clarifies the situation where there are for example 2 green flag laps before a race due to change of conditions from practice/qualifying - the green should be for both laps and not just the first (currently depending on which reg you read it could be either).

Dave

I used to "debate" with flaggies that the green was only for the second of the 2 laps if it was due to weather change. And while we're at it, why is it never 2 laps on a dry track after a wet qually?

As for any wheel over - bring it on. If only the penalties are the same across the clubs/organisers.

Norbert · 4 Jul 2012, 08:15

Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch!

Currently, on a dry day, over 50%? of drivers regularly put 2 wheels over the kerb onto the green (not alternating colours) painted area. Next year they would reportable!

Greem · 4 Jul 2012, 07:51

So it's like football and tennis (on the line is in play) rather than rugby (on the line is over)

I imagine there will be a *lot* of noise over this. It must be applied evenly, at all levels - excepting non-MSA ruled events like F1, which will be terribly confusing for the layman.

Chris Hobson · 4 Jul 2012, 08:43

Both of these changes are from race committee.

The circuit limits change is to stop the practice of hooking wheels over kerbs and using the grasscrete etc. I also feel it will make it much easier for us to report. Inevitably there will be people who do not like it and we expect a fair amount of traffic to the CofC when it is first implemented.

As Dave says, the green flag wording is to bring consistency to the rule book. The formation lap(s) is/are the one(s) signalled by the waving of the green flag on the start line. If cars are sent out from the assembly area straight on to the grid then the start signal is given, then that lap to the grid is the formation lap and should have green flags. I will get this clarified at the next race committee meeting.

Cynic · 4 Jul 2012, 11:57

So in a nutshell the rule change would mean that kerbs and white lines are now considered part of the racing surface, but put one wheel over and you're in trouble? I hope whoever is PC on post 4 the first time a BTCC meet at Brands is held under this takes a very big note pad with them.

Chigley · 4 Jul 2012, 12:24

Quote:

As Dave says, the green flag wording is to bring consistency to the rule book. The formation lap(s) is/are the one(s) signalled by the waving of the green flag on the start line. If cars are sent out from the assembly area straight on to the grid then the start signal is given, then that lap to the grid is the formation lap and should have green flags. I will get this clarified at the next race committee meeting.

Chris, I have written to the MSA via the race consultation email link. Are the MSA implying that the showing of the green flag during the "formation" lap is no longer to indicate where the flag points are. See my argument in my email:
Q15.1 Green flag. Why do you require a green flag displayed on each formation lap? The green flag is displayed on each flag point at the start of each practice/qualifying session then again as the competitors do their formation lap. The point of displaying the green flag is to denote where the flag points are so why display it on more than one formation lap. If competitors don’t know where the flag points are after seeing them identified twice then a trip to Specsavers is required. Should the reasoning be that presenting the green flag on each formation lap advises drivers that they are on an additional formation lap a large percentage of flag marshals who don’t have radio scanners or can hear a radio are totally unaware that an additional formation lap has been granted in any event.

It is far simpler to change Q5.1.2. as I said above if two "green flag" laps are authorised the majority of flaggies who don't have access to a radio or scanner are unaware of the change.