[Multi 21] Are Team Orders Racing?

[dirtymacca]

With the latest sports debacles and the use of terms such as "bringing the sport into disrepute"... "match fixing" etc. Do team orders fall into any of these categories ?

Surely team orders affect the final outcome, then does it fall into a similar category as "match fixing" which caused the game of cricket to fall into the disrepute category. Is it illegal? It is in cricket and criminal charges are laid.

I am sure there are many views on this..... cars can be manipulated from the pits, it is not a bat or ball sport etc. No one financially benefits from team orders....or do they? I am sure people do as sports betting covers F1. Drivers contract negotiations could be affected based on performance.

Are the paying public getting a "fair" race.... That is the best and fastest car/team combination wins.

[deeks6]

OFFICIAL TEAM ORDERS GUIDE FROM FAN PERSPECTIVE:

Vettel Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber has been screwed again!
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity.
German - Seb is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Webber Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber is a gritty racer. Good on him
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity so Webber should do what he wants
German - Who is Webber?

Hamilton Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Who cares? he's an overrated toss bag
British - Wow, it goes to show that this man is a "racer" who will give his everything to provide entertainment, the true spirit of F1 and world peace
German - Who is Hamilton?

Rosberg Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Great to see him sticking it up that overrated toss bag
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity. Perhaps Rosberg is similar?
German - Nico is the 2nd greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Ferrari Invoke Team orders
Australian - Cheats
British - Cheats
German (in MS Era) - Michael is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.
German (now) - Who is Ferrari?

[Paradise City]

It's racing, yes. It's been a part of the sport since the early days.

What I'd like to see and might someway mitigate against the choreography that sometimes occurs in the sport is a blanket ban on team driver radio. They communicate by pit board only. Then, in any team orders that were arranged before the race might very well be forgotten in the heat of the battle without a Rocky or whoever it is constantly reminding a particular driver about team orders.

I also think the hard task of wrangling strategy as the race progresses would be made far harder and would make the racing far more fraught, less strategy dependent and more entertaining.

They might still leave a radio channel open to race control so the driver can inform or be notified regarding any safety issue that emerges on the track.

[Rally Merc]

Here is another way to look at it.

In Red Bulls case, the drivers are employed by the teams to do a job. They should do what they are told just like the other team employees (mechanics, engineers, truck drivers, chefs etc) or fork out of their own pockets for a car/team so they can do as they wish.

Its a shame for Mark that in this case, the only way he could win was for Vettel to let him. I think he should just bite his lip and get on with it.

[Steptoe]

Originally Posted by Rally Merc

Here is another way to look at it.

In Red Bulls case, the drivers are employed by the teams to do a job. They should do what they are told just like the other team employees (mechanics, engineers, truck drivers, chefs etc) or fork out of their own pockets for a car/team so they can do as they wish.

For what its worth I tend to agree on the whole as F1 is as much a business as a 'professional' sport. Business decisions get made and 'employees' should do as they are told. In this case you've got 3 guys who did as their employers asked and 1 that didn't. So he gets a slapped wrist and all the others are either disgruntled by management decisions or agree with the decision but it wasn't followed through. You could argue its race fixing which is a whole different debate but at the end of the day it will get resolved behind closed doors and you would think the manager who got disobeyed will also get a roasting for not keeping his employees in line. (I doubt it though)
The question you have to ask is had MW not yielded to SV and they collided you would have had 2 cars out and some very red faces or much worse. Not sure if SV has ever had a really big off but MW has had his fair share of huge offs and knows all too well that it can be a very nasty outcome when cars collide or break. I think that we saw a lack of maturity from the current world champion which he should be embarrassed about.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by deeks6

OFFICIAL TEAM ORDERS GUIDE FROM FAN PERSPECTIVE:

team orders from a casual fan's perspective..

[Spritle]

Originally Posted by deeks6

OFFICIAL TEAM ORDERS GUIDE FROM FAN PERSPECTIVE:

Vettel Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber has been screwed again!
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity.
German - Seb is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Webber Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Webber is a gritty racer. Good on him
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity so Webber should do what he wants
German - Who is Webber?

Hamilton Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Who cares? he's an overrated toss bag
British - Wow, it goes to show that this man is a "racer" who will give his everything to provide entertainment, the true spirit of F1 and world peace
German - Who is Hamilton?

Rosberg Disobeys Team Orders
Australian - Great to see him sticking it up that overrated toss bag
British - Vettel is an arrogant dishonest immoral German who has caused poverty and wars and should be imprisoned for life or shot for crimes against humanity. Perhaps Rosberg is similar?
German - Nico is the 2nd greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.

Ferrari Invoke Team orders
Australian - Cheats
British - Cheats
German (in MS Era) - Michael is the greatest racer of all time and should be allowed to race a clearly inferior subordinate.
German (now) - Who is Ferrari?

Makes me wonder, was "leave me alone, I know what I was doing" a defiance of team orders or something completely different because it wasn't Ferrari or a German...?

In case you are wondering, if Vettel wins the WDC this year it WILL be tainted but if Hamilton wins over Nico by three points it will be a return to glory for Lewis!

[redesp]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

With the latest sports debacles and the use of terms such as "bringing the sport into disrepute"... "match fixing" etc. Do team orders fall into any of these categories ?

Surely team orders affect the final outcome, then does it fall into a similar category as "match fixing" which caused the game of cricket to fall into the disrepute category. Is it illegal? It is in cricket and criminal charges are laid.

I am sure there are many views on this..... cars can be manipulated from the pits, it is not a bat or ball sport etc. No one financially benefits from team orders....or do they? I am sure people do as sports betting covers F1. Drivers contract negotiations could be affected based on performance.

Are the paying public getting a "fair" race.... That is the best and fastest car/team combination wins.

I'm suprised that betting agencies, and punters alike, aren't shouting from the rooftop on this one.

IF there is "honest" money to be made in sports betting; then it is surely comprimised by team orders that affect the outcome of an event.

To ask a naive question. Is there any benefit / advantage to the team by slowing up and saving tyres / engines. Don't the teams have an endless amount of rubber at thier disposal and wouldn't the engine be changed / rebuilt after each race... or are they just being environmentally frienly by not burnign up resources

[Armco Bender]

IF there is "honest" money to be made in sports betting; then it is surely comprimised by team orders that affect the outcome of an event.

Name an "honest'' sport?...

[Razzzor]

So is it the same people that castrate Vettel for passing Webber the same ones that call Rosberg a wuss for NOT passing Hamilton? Or would Rosberg have been equally ripped to pieces by everyone if he didn't obey Brawn? It's the same situation though, Rosberg obeyed, although did sit right up his rear throughout the stint and voiced his displeasure, while Vettel said to hell with it and took the win.

[IceMan_PJN]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

So is it the same people that castrate Vettel for passing Webber the same ones that call Rosberg a wuss for NOT passing Hamilton? Or would Rosberg have been equally ripped to pieces by everyone if he didn't obey Brawn? It's the same situation though, Rosberg obeyed, although did sit right up his rear throughout the stint and voiced his displeasure, while Vettel said to hell with it and took the win.

I'm glad I'm not the only person that noticed this. Everyone hated on Vettel for disobeying team orders and passing his teammate but everyone wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass his teammate. It's a double-standard, and I hate those.

It's cool to hate Vettel so the cool kids didn't want him ignoring orders and passing, but it's cool to hate Hamilton so the cool kids wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass him.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by IceMan_PJN

I'm glad I'm not the only person that noticed this. Everyone hated on Vettel for disobeying team orders and passing his teammate but everyone wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass his teammate. It's a double-standard, and I hate those.

It's cool to hate Vettel so the cool kids didn't want him ignoring orders and passing, but it's cool to hate Hamilton so the cool kids wanted Rosberg to disobey orders and pass him.

Please don't use the word 'everyone' when that is simply not the case. I personally think Vettel was wrong and Rosberg was right. Had Rosberg overtaken, I would think he was WRONG is just the same way as I think Vettel was wrong.

Whether I am a cool kid, well who knows?

[littleman]

Is it just possible that Red Bull have been too clever in the past with driver instructions?

The only thing that possibly explains Vettel's decision is misinterpretation of the instructions?

He would know radio messages were monitored, so maybe he thought the team were telling him to do the exact opposite of what they were actually saying?

It was only when the race had finished that he realised they REALLY DID mean hold your position?

Perhaps that's why he said he'd cocked-up and it wasn't deliberate?

He appears far too bright to just blatantly stick two fingers up.....?

[Marbot]

Whatever your thoughts about it are, implementing team orders in the second race out of nineteen only makes the people who watch other sports more convinced that F1 is fixed if the whole point of it is to find out who the best driver is. They know enough about F1 to know that no one really gives a damn about which team wins it, and only about which driver wins it. 2012 was a good example of that (Who was overcome with joy when the soft drinks manufacturer won the constructors championship, again? Can you even remember which race it was at?). The number of driver threads on this forum is a good example of that (Hamilton vs Rosberg, etc).

Premiere league football is all about which team wins it and not about which player scores the most goals. Therefore, it is truly a team sport. You can find other examples in sport of whole teams benefiting just the one team player (cycling, etc), but those are equally puzzling to those who watch soccer, cricket, hockey, rugby, etc.

Please note that I'm all for team orders in F1 if they are legal.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by redesp

To ask a naive question. Is there any benefit / advantage to the team by slowing up and saving tyres / engines. Don't the teams have an endless amount of rubber at thier disposal and wouldn't the engine be changed / rebuilt after each race... or are they just being environmentally frienly by not burnign up resources

As no-one has answered your question....No, the teams don't have an endless supply of rubber - they are given a set number of each tyre per driver at the start of the weekend, and that's it. (That's one reason why Red Bull went out very late in Q1, to save tyres - and they nearly shot themselves in the foot with that. Its also why on his last pitstop, Hamilton (and I think Rosberg) had to change to scrubbed rather than brand new mediums......Equally the teams are allowed 8 (IIRC) engines per driver per year - using more incurs penalties. So when leading in a 1-2 situation it makes sense to win as slowly as possible - so, keep the third place man at bay, but don't go any faster than that.

Now many will argue that this doesn't promote "pure" racing...and I would probably agree...but for years the organisers have been trying to keep F1 speeds down (partially for safety reasons, partly for cost reasons, allegedly) and the teams have been trying to do the exact opposite. We have therefore ended with all manner of contrived regulations, and team orders are in some way a response to the enforced compromises to meet those regs.

[MikeManNZ]

Well the reason that Mark was aggrieved (and I do not blame him) was the team had him turn the car down and to go to max engine conserve making Vettal's pass easy.

If those orders had not been issued would Vettal have made the pass?, I am not sure as I did not catch the race but if Webber had been in front for 30ish laps there is no reason to suggest he would not have stayed there if not ordered to slow down.

I would be ****ed as well if I was Mark.

[chillibowl]

i am curious to know how much of his anger was directed at himself for trusting someone he really should have stopped trusting a long time ago. since before they were even team mates Vettel's been punting him of track.

not trying to take a dig on either of them but not much in their history to suggest that they have each others backs. part of me want to say that MW should have known better and that he is also in the unique position to have known better

also no problems with team orders btw. in fact im sort of scared if those that hate them find out about all the other 'secret choices' made in unison behind closed doors they are really going to be angry!

[AussieTimmeh]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Equally the teams are allowed 8 (IIRC) engines per driver per year - using more incurs penalties. So when leading in a 1-2 situation it makes sense to win as slowly as possible - so, keep the third place man at bay, but don't go any faster than that.

This is what I hate about the 'cost-saving' limited engines rule.

1. It brings these team orders into it, and
2. Forces the engine manufacturers to spend lots of money trying to design the smallest lightest most powerful engine AND make it last.

They have restricted using components made of unobtainium to keep the physical cost of materials down, so what's the big deal about stamping out a few more blocks and let them use their engines each race. You won't see any team orders to conserve engines, although I am sure you'd still see them for fuel and 'OMG don't crash into each other you idiots' moments.

[Nicholosophy]

Once upon a time, when a lead driver's car was taken out of the race for one reason or another they would call in a teammate and swap him out of the car and put the leading driver back in.

To suggest that team orders, or putting one team member before others, is a new thing is quite erroneous.

[formerf1champ]

Team orders are fine, there just has to be a certain tact when they're applied. F1Pete made the distinction. Similiar to what he posted.

[Knowlesy]

If you bet on sport surely you do so with knowledge of what is likely to happen?

[dirtymacca]

The reality of my op is.... why is rigging the result in cricket a CRIMINAL offence but to do so in F1 is accepted????

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

The reality of my op is.... why is rigging the result in cricket a CRIMINAL offence but to do so in F1 is accepted????

Because, obviously, team orders are allowed in the rules of F1 and are therefore not cheating. No one has contravened the rules.

Rigging a cricket match results is against the rules of the game.

[Darcia1]

Team orders have been around since racing began......

[Casper]

Mark would do well to remember that people in glass houses should not throw stones. He knows the rules, he is a second driver and employed to do what he is told which he vowed he would not do after the last incident. He is not the team owner's favorite son and he knows it but he finds it hard to accept as he is from all reports a very fair minded individual and does not like favoritism.