Still no answer

[Wrex]

I've asked this question a few times in other threads, and nobody has answered me. Forget right and wrong, because we all know 'morally' it was dead wrong.

But what right do the FIA have to punished Ferrari for implementing those team orders when so many (McLaren being the last) have done it before. And for all those groups 'threatening' legal action (alot of rubbish I believe) have the same problem.

Whats stopping Ferrari standing up and saying "what about them"?



So removing emotion (if you can), answer this:

How is what McLaren did at Melbourne different (legally) to what Ferrari just pulled?

[Mr V]

i have posted on another thread (what will the fia do) saying that i don't think that they will be able to punish ferrari for swapping on the final lap!

[mac]

I don't think they can do anything, unless it's for bringing the sport into disrepute.

But, they were not cheating and did not really break any rules.

I don't like it, but you're right Wrex, I don't think anything can be done.

I don't see why teams should be punished for implementing team orders, they are, as far as I know, allowed to do this and I think they should be allowed to do this. The Austrian GP incident was tough and unfair to Rubens but team orders have their place, it's just a matter for the teams (not fans) to decide when and where they use them.

[neilap]

Further more how would any rule forbidding team orders ever be upheld. What really offended me was the way they disrespected the podium and patronized RB. He looked like a puppet. MS told him to go on the podium, so he went. MS told him to hold the trophy, so he did. MS put him in the winners seat... There were 22 other drivers wanting to win the race. Yet Ferrari made it obvious the the only thing that mattered to them were the points, forget the ceremony.

[J.McClane]

It's not about rule breakin'.
F1 fans have had enough, it wouldn't have mattered if it was McLaren, Williams or any of the other big teams that had done it, we want to see the drivers to their jobs as F1 racers, not watch a play!!!!!
ferrari just did it so obvious and at the wrong time, they should have done the old mees up Barras pit thing........AGAIN.
But seriously this is what it's all about, WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH.
We have been sittin' watchin' these so called "races" for a few years now, somethin' needs to be changed, and like i said before, Ferrari's timein' was just really bad.

[Mr V]

Mr McClane is right, although there were no rules broken as such it did ruin what was otherwise a good race, the point is, although handing your team-mate the victory on a plate maybe legal, whats the point of that if there are no fans there to watch it because they're p***ed off because they're not watching a race, they're watching a farce!

[koby]

were people happy with what happened at Melbourne? I don't think so, your logic is therefore based on just because somebody else did something stupid - means that you should do the same.

Having said that, Melbourne was different to Austria - Mika lost out due to something not his fault within the pit stop - so DC was correcting a team mistake - which also could look like race fixing i.e. DC undid the team position swop.

[Raven]

IMO Mika didn't deserve to lose Melbourne 98 because of that pit call he received for no reason. He was the fastest all weekend. DC did a very kind thing of his own will. Melbourne 98 was better than life - it was fair.

[Adam43]

Legally Melbourne '98 and Austria 2002 is no different. Legally there is nothing wrong with either.

What DC did was a genuine nice thing to do (well beyond the call). He managed to right a wrong that had occurred through nobodies fault. It was fair.

What Ferrari did in Austria was unfair and created a wrong. We all know why it was done, but it was wasn't a very nice thing to do.

What can you do about it, legally? Nothing.

But this is why my support for Ferrari has waned away to nothing. I don't like the way they go about there business.

[racing_guru]

But seriously this is what it's all about, WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH

Please speak for yourself; I have no problem at all with what they did. I've been watching F1 long enough to know these things happen all the time and will happen again in the future.

The hysteria over this has gone way over the top, I guess there is little else to talk about this season. Why anyone would expect an organization that spends upwards to $400 million a season to compromise their chance at winning the championship in anyway is ridiculous. Team orders are in the rules and I would expect anyone to do whatever they could within those rules to win.

You may not like it, then it's your choice not to watch it.

If you think F1 is bad with team orders, try watching the World Rally Championship sometime.

[Gt_R]

In some respect, i do agree with racing_guru.

The response to this incident has really gone out of control. But now, as time pass, it seems that more have started to calm down and start to show an understanding towards what happened.

This is not something new in F1, let alone in Motorsports, and while it does not excuse Ferrari from their doings, the involvement of the names "Ferrari" and "Michael Schumacher" does lend alot to the increased reactions and criticisms.

[kristof14]

i think its been addressed in other threads that no punishment will be handed out for the team orders, just a warning, however there could be punishment handed out for the charade that went on on the podium after the race.

[OVERSTEER]

I think both the Melboure 1998, and Austria 2002 incidents are bang out of order, not just the Austrian 2002 one.

[J.McClane]

I agree both incedents were out of order, but i have been watchin' F1 for commin' up to 20 years now. And i for one(and i know i aint alone here)am very peed off with team orders. Senna & Prost were always racin' against each other when the drove for McLaren, and i think that us punters that buy the race tickets and team/driver merchandise have had enough of this.
I want to see the drivers RACE and not hand victories to their team mates(or older brothers).
Team orders should NOT be allowed.

[Startline1]

We all know team orders have been there for a very long time, but in the main have only been applied during the last few races of the season when a clear favorite within a team is helped to the title.

What occured in Austria was both illegal in terms of "match fixing" under most national laws and insulting to race fans worldwide.

Under UK law you could argue that what happened was contry to the trade discriptions act as an outcome arranged prior to the finish was not a fair race,

But to answer the thread question IMOH this is a breach of the ruling of bringing F1 into disrepute not for the act so much as the manner in which it was done.

To outlaw team orders would be the best thing but would be impossible to proove/police so i think the FIA, after dealing with this incident in the strongest way!!!, should ask an independant body to appoint judges with the sole task of upholding the spirit of sportsmanship in regards of the conduct of teams and drivers.Of course an imput from the fans should be included.

[mac]

There's nothing you can do to stop it or monitor it. If you make what happened in Austria illegal, the teams will simply give a driver a slower pitstop.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"If you make what happened in Austria illegal, the teams will simply give a driver a slower pitstop."

Ferrari could, they didn't.

Quote:"but in the main have only been applied during the last few races of the season when a clear favorite within a team is helped to the title."

Point taken... and in Ferrari, they believe Ferrari is the clear favourite within the team and so apply team orders. Really, when team orders are used doesn't make team orders that are applied in last few races any more "correct" than those applied in Austria, or even Australia.

I didn't like the team orders, Ferrari were wrong in some ways. Now lets move on to the next race!

When it comes down to it, this was a team decision. Most people seem only to see motor racing from their point of view which is of the fan. The attitude seems to be that the fan must come first always. This isn't to say fans are not important, of course they are, but the teams shouldn't make these decisions because of fan reactions, although it could be said that certain decisions, such as in Austria, may damage reputation with fans. Some of the reactions though have seemed a little naive.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Wrex

So removing emotion (if you can), answer this:

How is what McLaren did at Melbourne different (legally) to what Ferrari just pulled?

OK, I'll answer you WREX, now that everyone else (including AMoffat)won't. You did mention Melbourne, right!! The decision in Melbourne was taken by DC, and was not part of team orders by team management. There was not a podium farce afterwards, nor did Ron Dennis come out later and say that he would invoke team orders in any subsequent race that he wanted to.
Now you will remember that after Melbourne, there was still an outcry by both Mr Walker and by the betting fraternity. I think the FIA did make statements after Melbourne that this type of manipulation of race finishes would not be tolerated in future.
However, going one step further, no hard and clear rules were ever written to ban the manipulation of race orders within any team. In fact, if you compared the race rules of F1 with the yachting race rules of the IYRU, you will find that the FIA race rules are often vague and are not watertight. The yachting race rules leave nothing open to interpretation, whereas you could argue many of the FIA race rules to the point where the commission have to make the decision.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[Valve Bounce]

Going one step further still, if team orders are to be tolerated in F1, then the FIA should clearly spell this out that any team may change the order of finish of their cars as they wish ( to enhance the position of their lead driver obviously). If the FIA had spelled this out, then the racing fraternity could take this into consideration in their betting system, and not one single fan of any team would ever complain against team orders. So the meeting on June 26 is all important, because this issue must be addressed boldly to clear up the practice of team orders. This is particularly important because team orders involving more than one team to jig race finishes must also be addressed. Viz. We would not want to see a Sauber pulling over to let a Ferrari through (say aftr the Ferrari might have been involved in a drive through penalty or a spin and lost track position).

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

I thought the Melbourne 98 incident was as a result of team orders stating that 'first man into turn one stays ahead'. Surely the team would have got onto the radio to Coulthard and told him to let Mika through. Or was this agreement (if there was one) only between the drivers?

[Gt_R]

Quote:"When it comes down to it, this was a team decision. Most people seem only to see motor racing from their point of view which is of the fan. The attitude seems to be that the fan must come first always. This isn't to say fans are not important, of course they are, but the teams shouldn't make these decisions because of fan reactions, although it could be said that certain decisions, such as in Austria, may damage reputation with fans. Some of the reactions though have seemed a little naive."

I really think that this paragraph is worth to be read again by all. I have been trying to get this point across before, and Aussiefan had phrased it even better. And that i really encourage everybody to judge this incident from a more sensible angle than just a "fan view". But i guess its gonna be hard for many

Team orders that Ferrari practiced in Austria is just a more blatant form of team orders that we had grown used to. What i find really off putting is the kind of race-fixing between teams. That is what i really consider killing competition in F1, and should be taken action on first..

As for Melbourne and Austria, the decision may not please all. But its not meant to be.

[Mr V]

legal or not, the decision taken by the Ferrari team last sunday, will not alter the fact that Michael is going to win the WDC, the car and driver combination is too good not to, but now he'll win it by a further 4 points (and maybe more if the FIA go with Ferrari on 26th june), what it does do, is pour controversy on and tarnish yet another of his championships!

[RPM]

The point is not what the FIA can or will do but rather what they should do. More importantly what do F1 fans want it to do. What kind of sport do fans want.

It seems that under the direction of Bernie Ecclestone F1 has become more and more an elitist event, put on for the pleasures and business interests of sponsors and other VIPs. The fans themselves have become a necessary nussence. Ever try to get anywhere near the drivers or cars at a grand prix even after paying hundreds of dollars. Go to a CART or Nascar event and the drivers mingle with the crowds.

Yes financially Ecclestone has done well for the F1 teams but only at the expense of the fans. When fans start to get tired of being mere window dressing who will pay the bills... the tobacco companies.

I have been going to F1 events at Mosport and Montreal for decades now, but more and more I am getting tired F1's current elitist attitude. Maybe I am old and naive but I want to see racing, the best racing in the world and it should be staged for my benefit.