2 Aussie Drivers in All Time Top 20

[anthony81901]

UK magazine 'Motorsport' in their February edition have listed the all time top 20 saloon / touring car drivers of all time as follows:

1. Steve Soper
2. Peter Brock
3. Andy Rouse
4. Alain Menu
5. Bernd Schneider
6. Frank Gardner
7. Roberto Ravaglia
8. Gerry Marshall
9. Jim Clark
10. John Cleland
11. Gabriele Tarquini
12. Klaus Ludwig
13. Laurent Aiello
14. Dieter Quester
15. Hans Stuck Jnr
16. Jo Winkelhock
17. Jack Sears
18. Rickard Rydell
19. Frank Biela
=20. Brian Muir
=20. Nicola Larini

It mentions Colin Bond, Dick Johnson, Larry Perkins, Jim Richards and Mark Skaife as worthy contenders. I would have thought Klaus Neidzweidz and Win Percy would have been included, particuarly as they were among the few European drivers who actually mastered Mt Panorama. The article described Bathurst as the world's biggest touring car event.

Couldn't really work out how Steve Soper won, but I guess it is a Pommy mag. The piece on Gardner concentrated on his UK efforts in the mid 70's, while for Brock stated that with little doubt he would have been a force in European motorsport had he chosen to go down that path, which apart from the Bob Jane Porsche in 84 and the 86 HDT campaign he did very little of.

The article also described Bathurst as the world's most important touring car award. See related thread in WTCC & European Touring Cars section.

[peckstar]

im just asking because he was before my time really, although i have seen him drive

what has colin bond done in his career to get him a mention

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by peckstar

im just asking because he was before my time really, although i have seen him drive

what has colin bond done in his career to get him a mention

only driver to win Bathurst, ATCC & ARC:
Bathurst 69, ARC 71, 72, & 74, ATCC 75.

drove open wheelers & sports cars.

During Gr A he drove Alfas & Sierras at or near the front.

[pete55]

Colin Bond won Bathurst in 69 and drove for the HDT up until 75 i think. He then was involved in the famous Alan Moffat 1-2. Colin also drove Sierras and some Porsche cars for Alan Hamilton. He was also a very good rally driver.

[peckstar]

thanks pete any ATCC championships or similar?

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by peckstar

thanks pete any ATCC championships or similar?

1969 Bathurst, and 1975 ATCC if memory serves me correctly

[A9X05]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

1969 Bathurst, and 1975 ATCC if memory serves me correctly

Yep your pretty much right GTR, I was thinking the same! Plus Bondy nearly won Bathurst in 1977 too as I recall, He lost by about a half car length!

[rdmdog]

2 Aussies in the top 10, not bad!

[racer69]

Here's the link to thread in the European/BTCC Touring Car forum
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64836

'Motorsport' is one of may favourite mags, just a pity it takes 2 months to get here.....

I've been over it in the other thread, but to give this thread some substance to keep going , basically;

I can't understand how Jim Clark, John Cleland, Rickard Rydell or Nicola Larini made the list.

I can't understand how the likes of Tom Walkinshaw, Win Percy, Sigi Muller Snr, Klaus Neidzweidz and Emmanuelle Pirro didn't make the list.

The number of Australians on the list (aside from internationals who made the list, Frank Gardner and Brian Muir) was always going to be limited due to the lack of international running that alot of our drivers have had in touring cars, especially nowadays due to our unique rules. It is very hard to judge how good our touring car drivers are nowadays, the internationals coming over to run at Sandown and Bathurst nowadays is not accurate representation of the level of the drivers, as they don't get much time in the cars.

[GTRMagic]

John Cleland spent 15 years + running against the top talent in the BTCC and ended up with 2 titles.... he is no slouch... and likely deserves his place, especially for his off-track quotability....

I wonder if they will add Mr Ambrose to this in a few years time, or will he have to continue to run in other one-offs (like the Daytona 24hr, which as at right now, his car is leading the GT class) in order to get noticed?

[racer69]

Cleland was only a regular though from about 1989 -1999 in the BTCC, and '89 and '90 were spent in lower class cars. His first title in 1989 was achieved only because of a points system which was awarded on class position, not outright position, and alot of the time in his class the only other entries for the round was other GM Dealersport Vauxhall Astra's.

He was very competitive from 1991-1995, but he spent the last 4 years tooling around in admittedly uncompetitive Vectra's, and by 1999 just wasn't interested (though that was helped by a certain Mr Muller)

[GTRMagic]

But also ran in Thundersaloons, taking a title or two aboard an ex-HDT Bathurst VK....

Lets not forget MotorSport is UK based...

[MHDT]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Lets not forget MotorSport is UK based...

That would explain the bias in listing Brock at only number 2!

[racer69]

Certainly, but Thundersaloons weren't strictly Touring Cars were they, did produce some fantastic machinery though I will admit that there are drivers who i rate lower than Cleland in the list as well

anthony81901 - I missed this originally, but there are 3 Aussies in the list, not just 2.

2. Peter Brock

6. Frank Gardner

=20. Brian Muir

[GROUPA]

no rat?

[Timu]

Originally Posted by GROUPA

no rat?

Or Matt Neal?????

[gab73]

really would have thought grice would have made the list as he could very often take it right up to the europeans.
etcc
spa
mt fuji

[Nivola]

Guys truely remember what some of these guys have done.

My jaw hit the ground when I saw where they put Aiello. The man is one brilliant driver that can drive front and rear drive hard. The titles he gained.
"Turned up to the BTCC and they didnt see where he went"

I dont get this pro Peter Brock group. I not slaging off what he has done but think about it. It is only really local. Moffat was better internationally and same Gricey and Harvey. Peter really had the best cars and backing. Then think of the ATCC and he wasnt always there. <DJ more titles and no factory support for along time>

Any way the list is pretty well done good to see Jimmy Clark there!!!!! The master of a Cortina at Brands.

Racer 69 if you go to www.pitstop.net.au you will beale to get a copy of motorsport posted to you that comes to australia viar air mail. The artical about the RS500 cossie and BMW M3 is classic!

RS500 passing Formula 3000 down Hanger Straight!!!!!!!!!!! 550bhp On Nine inch rubber! those where the days!

[racer69]

Quick correction time - Moffat won at Macau in 1973 in a Team Harper Ford Capri RS2600, not his RS3100 he used to win the Australian Sports Sedan Championship in 1976

[Crowestar]

Brocky should have been number 1. No one has dominated a single motor race let alone two (Bathurst and Sandown), just like he did.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Crowestar

Brocky should have been number 1. No one has dominated a single motor race let alone two (Bathurst and Sandown), just like he did.

Are you saying this is the primary reason Brocky should be #1 - surely performing on the world stage away from your own dung heap is what helps a drivers ranking.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Are you saying this is the primary reason Brocky should be #1 - surely performing on the world stage away from your own dung heap is what helps a drivers ranking.

1977 Kings Cup at Spa 24hr (3rd outright), Porsche 956, BMW CSL, MHDT to Europe in 1986 & 1987, Nissan Mobil series in NZ plus the local racing... in Commodores, Sierras, BMW, Monaro, Volvo & Vauxhall SuperTourers... sports sedans etc etc

PB belongs in the list...

[Wrighty05]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

1977 Kings Cup at Spa 24hr (3rd outright), Porsche 956, BMW CSL, MHDT to Europe in 1986 & 1987, Nissan Mobil series in NZ plus the local racing... in Commodores, Sierras, BMW, Monaro, Volvo & Vauxhall SuperTourers... sports sedans etc etc

PB belongs in the list...

Thank you, well said. I reckon Brock came 2nd at Spa in '77, could stand corrected though. He was quicker than Gerry Marshall who was also on the list. Didn't they run most of the race on intermediates in pouring rain because they couldn't get any wet tires or something.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Wrighty05

Thank you, well said. I reckon Brock came 2nd at Spa in '77, could stand corrected though. He was quicker than Gerry Marshall who was also on the list. Didn't they run most of the race on intermediates in pouring rain because they couldn't get any wet tires or something.

It had something to do with the fact that Dealer Team Vauxhall had a contract with a certain tyre company, in which they either didn't have any wet tyres, or their wets were not very efficient.

Their primary rivals in the class were a horde of Alfetta GTV's, who had used a different brand of tyre, which was much superior.

DTV were reluctent to change to the good tyres, which were offered to them, due to their tyre contract, but after alot of wheeling and dealing the DTV Magnum changed tyre brands and Brock and Marshall wound up second outright and first in class.

There are many holes in that, i'll have to go and have a proper look, but hopefully someone has a better knowledge of it all

The favour of Brock driving the DTV Magnum at Spa (he was invited to race with them again in England later that year wasn't he?) was returned when Gerry came out to Bathurst later that year to partner South African Basil Van Rooyan as part of the 3-car Brock/Bill Patterson Racing assault.


I can see a case for Grice and Moffat making it in there, but i can also see why not.

Grice's international career lasted effectively 1986 until 1989 in Touring Cars, with 1986 and 1988 only being dedicated assaults on the ETCC. In 1987 his teamed an ATCC assault with racing NASCAR in the Coca Cola World 600 at Charlotte, and an outing in a factory BMW M3 at Spa in the 24 Hours partnering Roberto Moreno and Willy Siller. In 1989 he raced sporadically in, among other places, Australia, the USA and Japan.

As for Moffat, his only oversea's foray's with Touring Cars were in 1986 with Brock, 1987 with the Rothmans VL, plus outings at the Fuji 500 in Japan in 1989 with Klaus Neidzweidz in the Eggenberger Sierra. He did win Macau one year in his Group 2 Capri RS3100, but in Australia that was used as a Sports Sedan. He may have taken the Mazda to Macau one year as well from memory?

Any of his previous exploits had been in Trans-Am in America and Sportscars, like his runs in the Le Mans 24 Hours. He took his Group C Mazda RX7 to Daytona for the 24 Hours in 1985, but that is classed as a Sportscar race, not a Touring Car race

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

1977 Kings Cup at Spa 24hr (3rd outright), Porsche 956, BMW CSL, MHDT to Europe in 1986 & 1987, Nissan Mobil series in NZ plus the local racing... in Commodores, Sierras, BMW, Monaro, Volvo & Vauxhall SuperTourers... sports sedans etc etc

PB belongs in the list...

I agree wholeheartedly for the international results above plus here in Aus

Shame Frank Gardner raced tintops so rarely back here.