Blocking

[dtype38]

Carsten - if it makes you feel any better, I understood exactly what you meant from your first post. And I certainly agree that in the right place at the right time, throwing the rule book out the window and pitting yourself against another driver using instinct and skill and passion alone is the best feeling there is. And I also agree that sort of driving doesn't mean there has to be even the slightest bit of contact.

BUT.... that sort of driving comes with risks. Most of us here are involved in club motorsport and as Al says, we dont have teams to pick up the bill for any damage. That means the close stuff has to be done with a high level of consent and generally between drivers of similar levels of skill. That doesn't seem to happen very often these days. I have found a few folks out there are willing to do "armed combat" and its never resulted in a visit to the CoC. More often it ends in us both jumping out of our cars in the paddock for a hearty handshake with flushed faces and beaming smiles. Sadly that's rare. There seem to be many more drivers for whom "getting to the end without any dents" seems to be their first priority. There are a few who don't want to be overtaken regardless of how slow they are going (you need to outwit those) and some wouldn't know a "racing line" if it bit them (you need to keep well away from those).

So in the end, if there's one thing I have learned, it's that driver etiquette is a two way thing and you shouldn't impose your version on drivers who don't want to play the same game. Doing that will only end in tears... or in front of the CoC. :-)

[Al Weyman]

There seem to be many more drivers for whom "getting to the end without any dents" seems to be their first priority.

That could describe me I guess and is probably due to a number of things, the fact that I have totalled several racing cars in the past (it hurts physically and on the wallet, that makes yer think!) being one of them and the other is my age. The testostrosone levels drop as you get older and you become generally calmer and the mental attitude may be different, you don't have so much to prove if you know what I mean, you are not hoping to be spotted by some ficticious non-existant talent scout as the next Senna .

It also gets harder to repair them the older you are and the old energy levels drain abit during the actually race. I will have a go (I think) but if the case is a bit hopeless and I am not on the last lap I will no doubt yeild and try to bring the old girl (and more importantly me) back in one piece.

[carsten.meurer]

seems we widely agree !

racing has become a sport that attracted a lot of people with a much bigger wallet than skill. they go out to play in perfectly prepared cars, and on the featureless tracks can post great times in practice.
they cater for this wallet driven fraction that doesn't do racing for the right reasons in all ways. if they now bann all racing moves to help them even more, its no longer for me !

so be prepared when you go to germany to find mega fast cars, that are driven to average lap times by below average drivers !


also i agree that what cars you race determines the level you are willing to take it to.
hence my question for where to race my new rs2000 in a good enviroment
( read good as competitive and capable - not glossy brochure and catering...), as i want to drive it to the edge, but don't want to damage it thru avoidable ' missjudgements ' of great banger racers in golf2 or bmw e30 that are allowed out with the old escort over here.
then as many people say, its my own fault to build a car that is too good
to get a dent !
the REAL race cars of the day all had scars, and wore them with pride !
we only see the restored versions owned by wannabe racers, and that tints our glasses pink.


i always found that no one can get forced to a level of combat he doesn't want to be in ! if the guy in front uses wild lines to keep you behind, and
you are not fast enough to go past, or do not want to risk your car, stay behind. you are not a good driver if you cannot make him do a mistake that allows you to go by.

it always sorts itself !
what great racing i would have missed, both in car and as a spectator if any
coc had imposed a one change of line only rule.
not a single fford festival finale would habe been the same...


in general its fair to say that you have some of the best racing over in britain ! i always enjoyed coming over for a race, or having a nice battle with island folks coming over here !

just make sure the wallet driven racers don't have it all theire way...

[Mark Mitchell]

Forget what you see in the BTCC!

The BTCC is to Proper racing what Wrestling is to proper sport!
"Weaving" - if you cover more than 50% of the width of the track, you are contavening the MSA rules, and as such, as an Observer, I will report you!

[Al Weyman]

Thats told yer, from the man that matters!

[Mark Mitchell]

......I meant it in a caring way!!!

[graeme]

Blocking, e.g. taking the inside line, is perfectly acceptable.
Weaving ain't.

Just my 2p worth...

[carsten.meurer]

i cannot see weaving working to keep someone with a bit of sense behind you anyhow !

just you might want to change your line down a straight, or slightly curved part of the track more than once, and use more of than just half of the width
of the track in the process.

how would you define a ' non line change ' line on the brands front straight anyhow ? even the race line is weaving already... going by the ones that
want to count the beans !

weaving won't kepp a sensible driver behind, some gentle alterations to the line might well do.

i'd just loved to see no regulations being issued for the line i HAVE to use !
because excusing me for changing line is just this - telling me what line i
HAVE to use normally ! plain stupid !

next thing is being penalised for drifting as its more dangerous driving than
slowing down enough to make it round a bend in 'accepted' fashion...

if you want to get rid of the chance a slower car in front might get in between you and the deserved finishing position, go drag racing or sprinting !
racing involves overtaking AND defending !

[Seoigh]

When does 'defending your line' become 'blocking'?

[carsten.meurer]

depends on your attitude i think...

or on your position in the battle!


in my eyes i defend my position by blocking the most obvious oportunity for my opponent to pass me !

surely altering my line into corners, and slowing down on corner entrys or mid corner more than i need to, just to take momentum off my opponent is to
defend my position !
he could go round the outside, as i leave space there, so do i block him ?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Seoigh

When does 'defending your line' become 'blocking'?

My interpretation is:

You defend your line by ensuring that your car is in "the way" on the entry to a corner so that the car behind cannot get past. This may include going into the corner slightly slower so that you can get a faster entry out of the corner to arrive at the next one first.

Blocking includes all of the above but includes multiple devations of direction along the next straight or changing direction mid corner to keep the car behind.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

My interpretation is:

You defend your line by ensuring that your car is in "the way" on the entry to a corner so that the car behind cannot get past. This may include going into the corner slightly slower so that you can get a faster entry out of the corner to arrive at the next one first.

Blocking includes all of the above but includes multiple devations of direction along the next straight or changing direction mid corner to keep the car behind.

COC's (and most marshals) would probably find your definition acceptable.

[Pete Howarth]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

My interpretation is:

You defend your line by ensuring that your car is in "the way" on the entry to a corner so that the car behind cannot get past. This may include going into the corner slightly slower so that you can get a faster entry out of the corner to arrive at the next one first.

Blocking includes all of the above but includes multiple devations of direction along the next straight or changing direction mid corner to keep the car behind.

Agreed, I will put an observers report in against anyone who changes direction several times on someone else on a straight in order to keep a faster car behind them, and for those that move over when the vehicle overtaking has got alongside (except when it's move over or be hit move).

[carsten.meurer]

so you better not marshal on the run up to druid at any fford event,
or you run out of pen and paper pretty quickly...


just like with the rubbing thread, i believe moste have the same result
in mind, and know what is too much.
just some seem too anger to police it staying in the acceptable part,
so they want to build in an ( to me ) unacceptable margin as sort of
a safety area.
thats take the fun out of it !

i still claim to be able to change ' my line ' ( or whatever my line down a straight should be in the eyes of others ) several times, without being weaving or visually blocking someone !

all you talk about here is moves done with so little skill that they are blatantly obvious ! even from the outside !
i am sure a good driver can use all of a straight width without anyone than the guy behind noticing.

i do NOT want to pay for full scale slot racing !

[zefarelly]

Apparently I had a car weaving all over behind me on Monday, hand gestures as well in an apparent attempt to distract me so he could pass, is this acceptable ? ? ? . . . . I was so busy concentrating on my own driving I didn't really notice much,other than the proximity of the car behind, or at least I wasn't distracted, and drove off to a 50 second lead over him

[graeme]

Can't see any problem with driving like there's no-one behind you*, until they get some overlap, then you've got to give them some room. In fact, it's how you should be driving - it's almost the inverse of blocking! Placing the car because there's someone behind will slow (both of) you down (which is acceptable, but in a long race race is likely to cause you to lose more places). I think there's mileage in going down the 'bike route of no mirrors QED you can't block because you don't know where the guy behind is until he gets alongside.


*except you're being lapped, then get the hell out my way (if the driver of an orange Sunbeam which was racing at Stowe last year is reading)

[carsten.meurer]

i really know of a complaint in a porsche supercup race at monaco, where
a driver formally complaint that the way the driver behind drove caused
the car in front to crash without any contact being made...

in a proper karting event germany agains holland i lost my brake completely.
instead of retiring, i decided to stay on track, and do the best i could to help my team. i managed to slow down some competitors so much, that we gained several places. i was taken off the result afterwards on the basis that all the lines i had taken and the low speed and all was ok.
i should just not have looked back to see where my opponent was.
the fact i looked for them made it inacceptable...
anyhow, we came second, the dutch only second to last... LOL
even a certain ms couldn't help us win...


i think we are talking racing for position as a must here ! being laped and
'blocking' should be a reason for a raceban !

and as i said very early on, in some cases blocking makes no sense at all, as it will put you in a worse position overall.
more than once i decided to make it easy for a frontrunner to pass me after
he came back from a spin, so not to loose time, and gain momentum on people in from following him.


at the end you have to see that it seems many people have a different
opinion what blocking really is !
some guy will acuse you of blocking, just because he was stuck behind you all race without a chance to get alongside, someone else will be happy
about a great race, having been kept behind useing all tricks in the book !

which of the two would you call a racer ?

[dtype38]

The guy who thought you had a great race would be a great club racer and have a great time there. He would also never have a career in motorsport (you have to be a bit more self-centred for that) :-))

OK, so here's a situation from my own experience: I managed to get into the lead of a kart race at the first corner and pull away from the pack. The chap behind broke away with me and was climbing all over the back of my kart looking for a way past. I knew that he was a quicker than me and also that it was only a matter of time before he would get past. So.... I slowed right down in the tightest parts of the track where he couldn't pass. That dropped our lap times and allowed the third and fourth place drivers to catch up. I kept this up until the gap was down to nothing and the chap in third was making an attempt for second. Then I nailed it, pulled away from the battle for second and took the win.... fair tactics?

[Tim Falce]

Dtype, I think that's gamesmanship, blocking would be more like weaving across the track to stop someone overtaking where they normally could overtake, not where they couldn't.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by dtype38

fair tactics?

Nothing wrong with that as far as I am concerned - but frustrating for the guy behind!

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

- but frustrating for the guy behind!

My thoughts too... I went into every braking zone bracing myself for the punt from behind!

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by dtype38

My thoughts too... I went into every braking zone bracing myself for the punt from behind!

Good for him that he didn't do it - Some might have taken a chance and blamed it on you for slowing up. But you weren't blocking, just driving tactically!