Would Montoya have won the WDC if he stayed in F1?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Form reasonable...but off the pace compared to Raikkonen. If you take a beating by your teammate, you won't last long.

That is an excellent point safc and what F1 ought to be like!

I'm going to go off topic a bit but we still have the likes of Ralf, Jarno, Rubens, DC, Fisichella, Button still in F1; all arguably examples of drivers that have at several points been annhilated by their teamates yet are still knocking around. How do they get away with it?

It's mavericks, tryers and spectacular drivers who traditionally get the imagination and that's why the public and race enthusiasts loved Moss, Peterson, Villenueve, Senna, Mansell, and more recently Kimi, JPM and perhaps to a lesser degree in this sense Schu and Alonso.

The sport itself doesn't really care as much for such attitudes and flair nowadays imo?

[Knowlesy]

No, a maverick does not fit these days unless he wins regularly. Which is pretty damn tricky when there are so few winning drives.

[safc_fan89]

Nowadays results are so much more important because F1 is financially-driven. it's more a business than sport, really. Montoya will be better off in NASCAR where he can be as outspoken and aggressive as he liked, and Mclaren don't seem to have lost out on anything as they have 2 good drivers again. He's not in F1 any more but if anyone misses him that much, they can watch him thrash around ovals in a NASCAR car, or whatever you call them :P

[Knowlesy]

And bloody well enjoy it we will too!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

You'd have to be a pretty hardcore Montoya fan to come up with that.

This is Chunterer your talking about, you won't find more hardcore than him

[Knowlesy]

I'd beg to differ.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by chunterer

the public and race enthusiasts loved Moss, Peterson, Villenueve, Senna, Mansell, and more recently Kimi, JPM

Mods! Chunterer's sandbaggin' on Villeneuve

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Last2LiftOff

Mods! Chunterer's sandbaggin' on Villeneuve

But which one??!! Only one of the V's had the qualities I referred to there.

BTW, Knowlesy's a big fan of 'tryers' and bigups JPM regularly too, only he's an F1 mod and therefore possibly has to err on the side of caution with his debate whereas and i'm not so I guess I can get away with saying a lot more!!

[Wrex]

Should have know V-man would be in here trying to sell this snake oil.

Monty was quick on occasion, great to watch at times, even mildly entertaining when he spoke. I even recall a punch on with a camera man that was stopped before he got in over is head.

All that aside, though Monty never really has the car to be WDC, he was never worthy of one anyway. He came in as the next whatever, the man that was going to show MS how it was done. In the end, he couldn't even get the better of Shummy Jnr.

Nascar however will love him. He's got some style, a bit of a 'take no prisoners' attitude. That will probably not only get some good results in Nascar, but make him popular too.

Cya Monty, don't let the door hit ya.....

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But which one??!! Only one of the V's had the qualities I referred to there

Yeah, I think we all know which one you were talking about Chunterer.
That was my point actually and all in good fun. As you were.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"that's why the public and race enthusiasts loved Moss, Peterson, Villenueve, Senna, Mansell, and more recently Kimi, JPM and perhaps to a lesser degree in this sense Schu and Alonso."

I think its important to stress that this statement is merely an opinion. I find it particularly interesting that often JPM and Jacques were being associated with the respected and godly names of Senna, Moss, Gilles... by their fans to create an excessively "romantic" and "passionate" image that is barely justified.

Frankly, i'm not the biggest fan of Alonso (i'd not say MS to avoid accusations of bias), but i do find Alonso much better to watch and a more deserved champion, and even more deserving of the tag "racer" than either JPM and JV. Simply, both "less loved" Schu and Alonso are drivers with much greater racing abilities, and as they have both shown as recent as last year, are as much capable of racing wheel to wheel.

Granted, i'm not saying JPM, nor JV, are bad. JPM would quite easily squeeze into the top 10 drivers of 2006, while i always felt that JV had done enough to at least finish the season. And to their credit, they did have some impressive race wins or moves to be remembered.

But these drivers initially didn't get their reputation as being a brilliant achievers in F1, but rather their reputation from prior series as well as taking the easy "anti-establishment" attitude. Some called it personality, many would call it loud and negative. your call?

i thought that JPM added a different dimension to F1, not neccessary better. And given, i don't wish for 22 Nick Heidfelds or Fisichella on the grid either. JPM, for good or bad, just added a different perspective.

He wouldn't win a WDC unless circumstances and the equipment permits, and that his competitors are bogged down. Simply, in terms of ability, he's good but not exceptional, and in terms of consistency, he couldn't match. Same for JV.

However, i wouldn't begrudge him one if he did. And i won't think many will.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

Quote:"that's why the public and race enthusiasts loved Moss, Peterson, Villenueve, Senna, Mansell, and more recently Kimi, JPM and perhaps to a lesser degree in this sense Schu and Alonso."

I think its important to stress that this statement is merely an opinion. I find it particularly interesting that often JPM and Jacques were being associated with the respected and godly names of Senna, Moss, Gilles... by their fans to create an excessively "romantic" and "passionate" image that is barely justified.

But these drivers initially didn't get their reputation as being a brilliant achievers in F1, but rather their reputation from prior series as well as taking the easy "anti-establishment" attitude. Some called it personality, many would call it loud and negative. your call?

i thought that JPM added a different dimension to F1, not neccessary better. And given, i don't wish for 22 Nick Heidfelds or Fisichella on the grid either. JPM, for good or bad, just added a different perspective.

What you say brings me to a further point.

The perception of drivers these days is largely enforeced by what we see of them on the box or what we see them do in the car and team they're signed to. So obviously if they are not performing or 'complaining' about stuff then the public usually see them as inferior drivers.

Nothing can take away the fact that they all have to work bloody hard to get themsevles into the right environment with which to challenge regularly to begin with and the pressure cooker style of F1 quickly informs us who's hot and who's not I guess.

However I didn't mean to suggest that JPM (or Jacques for that mater, although as much as I liked him when he came in suffered a similar fate to the Colombian) should be considered in the same bracket as 'gods of F1.' For those who love fighters (and the last man standing of that particular F1 driver genre) then JPM slotted quite nicely into that group, JV possibly his first couple of years too.

More generally, the likes of JPM and Jaqcues are/were big names because of their fairly big appeal to tv audiences and therefore sponsors worldwide. It can't be coincidental that these drivers who also happen to spout off a lot and have shall we say strong opinions tend to get a lot of media coverage. If they do something controversial and or spectacular on the track then that just add to the mix. These guys kind of ended up as being looked upon as the bad guys of F1?

Mr Senna was often portrayed as a villain of F1 thanks to his outbursts, particularly by the british press, yet was the finest driver of his era so I guess as knowlesy kind of referred to earlier about mavericks, he could afford to be a maverick because he was always at the front?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Wrex

Should have know V-man would be in here trying to sell this snake oil.

Monty was quick on occasion, great to watch at times, even mildly entertaining when he spoke. I even recall a punch on with a camera man that was stopped before he got in over is head.

All that aside, though Monty never really has the car to be WDC, he was never worthy of one anyway. He came in as the next whatever, the man that was going to show MS how it was done. In the end, he couldn't even get the better of Shummy Jnr.

Nascar however will love him. He's got some style, a bit of a 'take no prisoners' attitude. That will probably not only get some good results in Nascar, but make him popular too.

Cya Monty, don't let the door hit ya.....

Blimey, look who crawled out from under the rocks Like him or not Wrex my old buddy, he gave us something to talk about for hours on end!

p.s. don't you ever reply to your texts?

[SennaTheGreat]

Mr V he wont have credit i bet lol