Quickest racing on a budget

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by kelvin88

Yup! You thought Jedis was dangerous, this will sort you out!

Yes, but don't they sound nice when they are being warmed up. We used to have one that Ian hurled about with gay abandon, and I spent the next week welding back together. I never did try driving it, but they definately aren't for the faint hearted.

Matt, looking at those pictures again, that wasn't a bad description of yours. I was more disturbed about outboard suspension in this age of pushrods and monoshocks.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

I was more disturbed about outboard suspension in this age of pushrods and monoshocks.

Try telling that to the Radical brigade!

[JNWRF01]

The Van Diemen is an easy (but costly) conversion to Class A F4 spec. You need to change nose/pods/floor add wings, new loom, ecu, exhaust. air box, add carbs, mod fuel tank, fuel pump etc etc. Much easier to buy one done (start at £14k and then move upwards).

No one has converted (I believe) a normal Mygale Zetec yet - the ones in the championship are the US FF2ltr cars. I think the mono shock would work very well with the bug F3 tyres....but will cost a lot of money to make mould etc etc to make everything fit.

I would look for a good Tattus 8V Renault or buy a cheap(er) Van Diemen and use that. The normal Zetec cars are becoming harder to find as most have been converted to use as something else. Mike Gardner is usually a good source of cars also.

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

The Van Diemen is an easy (but costly) conversion to Class A F4 spec. You need to change nose/pods/floor add wings, new loom, ecu, exhaust. air box, add carbs, mod fuel tank, fuel pump etc etc. Much easier to buy one done (start at £14k and then move upwards).

No one has converted (I believe) a normal Mygale Zetec yet - the ones in the championship are the US FF2ltr cars. I think the mono shock would work very well with the bug F3 tyres....but will cost a lot of money to make mould etc etc to make everything fit.

I would look for a good Tattus 8V Renault or buy a cheap(er) Van Diemen and use that. The normal Zetec cars are becoming harder to find as most have been converted to use as something else. Mike Gardner is usually a good source of cars also.

The expected rush of 8 valve Renaults onto the market at the end of 2008 never happened. Of the 5 Tatuus's we have owned, 3 of them are abroad. I don't know where the 97 onwards Van Diemens are, there were never very many of them, but I haven't seen one in BARC for some years now.
The favourite has to be a 97 Tatuus, it will be cheaper because its older, but it is not measurably slower, and, in our opinion, is nicer to drive than the later cars.

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by mawds21

so how do i go about using a FFZetec in F4. do i just buy a standard fford (something like this http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listin..._For_Sale.html) and attach nose and tail wings?

You can race it as a standard FFZetec in class C which is for these cars only as Jez and Neil said stick to a Mygale or Van Diemen (I'd say Ray but you won't find one) I believe FCS has a SJ03 for sale.

[mawds21]

thats really useful advice guys, thanks. so basically my options are FFzetec in class c F4 (do they use wings and slicks?), or an old FRenault in Class A(?). on the latter point there is one currently for sale on the 750mc website for around £8k

[Triple J Motorsport]

No totally standard in class C, if you stick wings on it would be a class A car (lots of other mods also permitted in class A)

[delta]

Sorry off topic. Bob whats happaning with Marks Royale RP30. Mawds 21 have a look at www.HistoricFF2000.co.uk .F4 looks great these days but they seem to have a lot of classes and now are letting in the Renaults.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by delta

Sorry off topic. Bob whats happaning with Marks Royale RP30. Mawds 21 have a look at www.HistoricFF2000.co.uk .F4 looks great these days but they seem to have a lot of classes and now are letting in the Renaults.

Hi delta, F4 only really has 2 classes. Class A which the renaults sit in and Class C for the formula ford zetecs.

Only a couple of cars in class C which caters for the older car. I think F4 will see off monoposto in 2009 finally as they struggled in 08....

Chris waits for an attack from andy97!

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by delta

Sorry off topic. Bob whats happaning with Marks Royale RP30. Mawds 21 have a look at www.HistoricFF2000.co.uk .F4 looks great these days but they seem to have a lot of classes and now are letting in the Renaults.

Hiya Ian,
It's still sat in our garage, with a coat of paint it is ready to go. I may well drive it in 2009, I think I have finally decided I'm too old for BARC Renault.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

Hi delta, F4 only really has 2 classes. Class A which the renaults sit in and Class C for the formula ford zetecs.

Only a couple of cars in class C which caters for the older car. I think F4 will see off monoposto in 2009 finally as they struggled in 08....

Chris waits for an attack from andy97!

Struggled as in had larger grids than recent years with lower entry fees than for a few years? Admittedly the 2litre class wasn't quite as well supported as it could have been (hence the tweaks to the regulations for 2 litre cars for 2009, but especially 2010), but the 1200s, 1600s, 1800s and Classic 2000s did okay at most tracks.

I don't know much about F4 as I didn't read much about it when choosing a series to race in - I glanced at the regs and decided in a couple of minutes it wasn't for me. So I don't know how healthy F4 is, or how great the paddock banter is. So I can't take cheap shots at an alternative class (and I wouldn't - everyone should be working together, pleased to be getting people in race cars on grids).

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Redracer77

Hi delta, F4 only really has 2 classes. Class A which the renaults sit in and Class C for the formula ford zetecs.

Only a couple of cars in class C which caters for the older car. I think F4 will see off monoposto in 2009 finally as they struggled in 08....

Chris waits for an attack from andy97!

Chris, you are right, I can't resist... is that struggled as in ran two grids at every meeting in 2008, as they have done for several years?

[JNWRF01]

Tristan - essentially F4 is now a single engine formula - either zetecs with wings or not. Mono is nothing like that - it has a variety of engines/chassis etc. I dont think the two are comparble - so don;t see why both can't flourish. It would be great if all the Zetec engined (either orginal FFZ or the American spec winged cars) could end up in F4 - and leave mono for the more diversed grid. There are plenty of cars to support both series. We currently have another 2 - 3 new Van Diemens coming into the series next season - and the club have tried to establish parity to allow the 8V Renaults to compete with the VDs, Mygale and the lone Ray.

I think since F4 basically became a single engine formula the racing has got a lot better and more competitive. Looking at your website - on the whole we are either slightly quicker at the same tracks or parity at worse (despite having smaller engines to the tune of 30-40hp). The competitiveness of the top 6 in qualifying is higher in F4 over mono - but I guess this is down to single engine type rather than just driving skill. Paddock banter is very good - despite the fact we all race hard - and I believe the 750mc entry fees are lowest in the UK (capped for 09). We go to all the main UK tracks, double headers at each meeting, reverse grids (ala GP2 Format!!) for 09 and always get the garages. Bang for buck - I don;'t see a better formula in terms of £££/speed.

I hope to do a few mono races with a 2ltr engine in the back of the Van Diemen in 09 to make a direct comparison. Looking forward to seeing you out there.

[andrewc]

Monoposto grids have been full or even oversubscribed - at Rockingham about 5 cars were running in a different grid without points.

The 2000 class was split into 2000 and Classic. About 2/3 of the entries fell into Classic and the 2000 class (on the same grid) was somewhat empty, made slightly worse when a few people had accidents which took them out of circulation for a while whilst parts were being found.

At Mallory Monoposto had 3 grids. 1600 with Formula Fords, 1200s & 1800s, 2000s and Classics.

[shakeyfinch]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

I think since F4 basically became a single engine formula the racing has got a lot better and more competitive. Looking at your website - on the whole we are either slightly quicker at the same tracks or parity at worse (despite having smaller engines to the tune of 30-40hp). The competitiveness of the top 6 in qualifying is higher in F4 over mono - but I guess this is down to single engine type rather than just driving skill.

I would have though F4 at 505kg's and Mono min weight of 560kg's probably has more to do with it than the above. 30-40 bhp....are those zetecs only really 130-140bhp?

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by shakeyfinch

....are those zetecs only really 130-140bhp?

Yep!

[JamesH]

As a locost driver, I sometimes look to see about some sort of single seater formula, but always get flummoxed by all the alternatives, so this is an interesting thread.

So, for the benefit of a non-single seater racer....what sort of cars/budgets do you need to run the various categories? And which cars fit in to which category? I generally do ALL my own maintenance, inc. welding and engine work, so not looking for series where you need to buy help in!

Monoposto - what's this all about?
F4 - look like fun, but whats allowed and how much?
Jedi - very fast, but any class where your feet are in front of the rack must be a bit iffy!! Or, am I wrong?
Revelations - just saw these in the thread above - look like a good idea (and one I always wondered why no-one had done before - Simple chassis, standard engine, aero. Cheap). But, does anyone race them?
FFord - so many different classes AFAICS, but which is cheapest/best/easiest?
Club F3 - Friend races these, engine rebuilds cost more than my entire season in Locost
FRenault - lots of old standardised cars (but different types?), but where can you race them? What needs to be changed for which series?
FV - Run by 750MC, as is locost, but seem very old fashioned? Right or wrong?
Formula theonesimissed. Anything else?

As you can see, lots of questions above, and lots of searching needed to get some sort of idea of the answers!! Can anyone summerise?

James

[TonyCotton]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Monoposto - what's this all about?

James

Have a look at www.monoposto.co.uk for an idea of what Mono is about. From an economy point of view, 1600 class is Kent 1600 and 8v F Vauxhall Juniors and F Renault 1700s, available from around £3000 upwards. Running costs are negligible until somebody crashes into you (no racing driver ever crashes into somebody else and those barriers just jump out without looking). Cameraderie is good. 1800 class is Zetec FF's, available for around the same money as the 1600's. Both classes are pretty reliable.

1200 and 2000 are generally much more expensive.

Whatever you do, there are few things as precise to drive as a single seater.

On a totally separate matter, praise to the comments about co-operating not competing. Club motorsport needs to stick together and work together in the face of competition from other activities.

[JNWRF01]

Originally Posted by shakeyfinch

I would have though F4 at 505kg's and Mono min weight of 560kg's probably has more to do with it than the above. 30-40 bhp....are those zetecs only really 130-140bhp?

Min weight is wrong - but the min weight is irrelevant - most of the Class A cars comes in at 550kgs - for the record I was 565kgs this year!

[andy97]

James, essentially F4 and Monoposto are very similar series - single seater series with various classes into which different cars fall, aimed at the clubman on a budget. In both series some of the classes are for cars with slicks and wings, some classes have motorbike engines and some classes are run for cars such as F Ford Zetecs. There is always rivalry and banter between the two series because they are so close in philosophy. There are difference, sure, but there are also many similarities.

Some people have raced in both over the years and some cars (such as F Renaults and F Ford Zetecs) are eligible for both series. F4 runs as part of the 750mc whilst Monoposto is an independent club established purely to run series for "formula" cars, it generally buys grids of other clubs such as the CSCC or BRSCC etc.

Overall running costs can be as high as you want but are generally pretty reasonable and I would argue that there is very little as much fun, or as cost effective in terms of performance per £ as running a F Ford Zetec in either F4 Class C or Monoposto 1800. I would even argue that you might be able to run a F Ford Zetec for a season cheaper than you can probably run your Locost, but you'll be going a lot quicker doing it!

[JNWRF01]

Originally Posted by JamesH

As a locost driver, I sometimes look to see about some sort of single seater formula, but always get flummoxed by all the alternatives, so this is an interesting thread.

So, for the benefit of a non-single seater racer....what sort of cars/budgets do you need to run the various categories? And which cars fit in to which category? I generally do ALL my own maintenance, inc. welding and engine work, so not looking for series where you need to buy help in!

Monoposto - what's this all about?
F4 - look like fun, but whats allowed and how much?
Jedi - very fast, but any class where your feet are in front of the rack must be a bit iffy!! Or, am I wrong?
Revelations - just saw these in the thread above - look like a good idea (and one I always wondered why no-one had done before - Simple chassis, standard engine, aero. Cheap). But, does anyone race them?
FFord - so many different classes AFAICS, but which is cheapest/best/easiest?
Club F3 - Friend races these, engine rebuilds cost more than my entire season in Locost
FRenault - lots of old standardised cars (but different types?), but where can you race them? What needs to be changed for which series?
FV - Run by 750MC, as is locost, but seem very old fashioned? Right or wrong?
Formula theonesimissed. Anything else?

As you can see, lots of questions above, and lots of searching needed to get some sort of idea of the answers!! Can anyone summerise?

James

To answer your question on F4 costs - cars fro £8 to £18k, running costs are the same as a locost apart from tyres and damage (tyres are £125 a tyre new or £10 a tyre second hand). Damage is c £1000 a corner - Entry fees are the same as what you are paying now (and you get garages). PM me if you need more details.

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

Min weight is wrong - but the min weight is irrelevant - most of the Class A cars comes in at 550kgs - for the record I was 565kgs this year!

take your wallet out your pocket jez and you would hit the limit

This season the limit was 505kg but that is a carry over from when the championship was standard formula ford zetecs. Like Jez said most A class cars come in at about 540 - 570kg so similar to mono but with less horse power. NEW limit for CLass A in 09 is 540kg.

I think the single standard engine has helped F4 over the last few years and will help even more next season. I have always said that F4 is the cheapest form of motor racing as long as you dont damage wings etc as tyres can be bought 2nd hand for £40 a set and rebuilds cost in the region of £1,500 to £2,500 and will last for 4 - 5,000 miles (2 or 3 seasons).

Even FF1600 costs the same for a rebuild and they only last 1000 miles at the most.

Mainly double headers in 09 with visits to Donington, Castle Combe, Oulton Park, Brands Hatch etc.

If anyone want the dates then please PM me as they are not released yet so will not post on the forum until they are.

[andy97]

I must admit to being confused by F4 being considered a "single standard engine" as i thought that Ford CVH, 2 litre Renault 8 Valve, Honda Blackbird, F Ford Zetec, 2 litre F Ford Pinto and 2 litre Vauxhall engines were all eligible. At least thats what the F4 web page seems to say.

Even the Zetec engines being used in Class A are modified compared to the F Ford spec ones used in Class C

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by andy97

I must admit to being confused by F4 being considered a "single standard engine" as i thought that Ford CVH, 2 litre Renault 8 Valve, Honda Blackbird, F Ford Zetec, 2 litre F Ford Pinto and 2 litre Vauxhall engines were all eligible. At least thats what the F4 web page seems to say.

Even the Zetec engines being used in Class A are modified compared to the F Ford spec ones used in Class C

You are sort of right. In the regs you can but only zetec and the renault engine race.

Both motorcycle engine cars have now been swapped for zetecs and the last CVH has gone over the winter to a zetec conversion.

The Class A regs are slightly different to Class C but that is mainly ECU and induction. The block etc is the same.

[Bob Pearson]

rebuilds cost in the region of £1,500 to £2,500 and will last for 4 - 5,000 miles (2 or 3 seasons).

Is that the cost when you rebuild your own engine or is that paying someone to do it
It seems a bit cheap for the latter and a bit dear for the former.