[Driver] Webber VS Vettel

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

all that equipment and they can't use it.

It does seem harsh, but it's the same for everyoe.

[Born Racer]

Of course Mr V. That's for a seperate thread really. Just a gripe with these supposed "cost-saving" measures which don't save costs.

[Mr V]

Fwiw, i feel sorry for Mark, he would have easily have scored some good points today, although (even without team orders) i doubt he'd have got anywhere near Seb V.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by jab

In a brand new chassis, no less

... where the cockpit shroud wouldnt stay down not once but twice, and needed the old hundred-mile-an-hour tape to stick it down..

Well done to Potsie to get in the record books with a fastest lap...

Mr Brundle was right... if Potsie didnt have bad luck, he'd have no luck at all!

[ralf fan]

Terrible race for Webber. I mean how did he even think that a 5 stop strategy would work. The guy must work on his race craft and planning, but then this is nothing new.

[Marbot]

Had he not thrown the car at the scenery he wouldn't be having those problems in the race,and no prizes for a fastest lap during 'testing' either.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Had he not thrown the car at the scenery he wouldn't be having those problems in the race,and no prizes for a fastest lap during 'testing' either.

What are you on mate? Are you suggesting Webber may have been the architect of his own downfall? I was always thought that he is unlucky.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

I was always thought that he is unlucky.

The question is: How long will everyone in F1 think that he's just "unlucky" ?

[neiltb]

another luck inspired saying is that 'you make your own'.

[Peter Mallett]

?

[V8 Fireworks]

Well Webber explained that the ride height was set too low so the car bottomed out in practice. A driver error yes... but he was simply driving at the normal line and speed and was hardly to know that the adjustments done by the team were excessive.

The FL would indicate that Webber is perfectly capable of negotiating the Suzuka track without crashing, given a proper car.

[Born Racer]

Why does Mark Webber polarise opinion so much?

[SSbaby]

There is no doubt that Webber is a dud.

He's crashing more because he's trying harder.

You make your own luck in F1. It's what separates the great from the not-so.

Vettel once again showed the more experienced Webber how to drive in a controlled and mature manner.

It would be great to listen to 'Roy and HG' tonight to find out what new gag they'll use for Webber.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Had he not thrown the car at the scenery he wouldn't be having those problems in the race,and no prizes for a fastest lap during 'testing' either.

Webber to Renault then?

[Wrex]

*yawn*

If I ever want to feel intelligent or smarter than I really am, all I need to do is come in here and read some posts from the anti-webber brigade. If he were as bad as they want you to believe, why do they feel so threatened? LOL

Anyways, a brilliant drive by Seb. Clearly the car was the best one out there, but he was faultless. He's still making the odd mistake, but his raw speed is undoubtedly as high as anyones in F1 at the moment.

Webber was unlucky with the cockpit problem, but his race was over the day before with his own crash. On my count, thats still less errors than Seb season to date so I wont be hanging him for it.

For the double digit IQ's here that claim Webber is ****, being so close to Seb (and often faster) doesn't look good for the German then does it? I used to have this same argument about Montoya and Ralf (V will remember) in their first season, with everyone saying Montoya was going to kill Ralf. This despite Ralf being faster more often and IIRC finishing with more wins/points.

Turns out they were both crap

I've tried to resist the qually bait, but I'll take a dip. Again, if its 14:1 and as some claim a great indication of talent, how has Webber finished ahead of him so many times if he is sooooo slow. These are the same people that claim Webber cant race aren't they? So, can he race, or is Vettel even worse?

We can round and round on this merry go round forever, but it is pointless. There are some die hard aussies(and other Webber fans) here that have embarrassed me and other fans with their BS. Verstappen had them, Villenueve had them, Montoya had them, and god knows Michael had them. They unfortunately inspire the other side of the forum, that small group that like to bait them, slamming a driver on every small detail or mistake, rarely brave enough to state their own favorite driver because they know that no driver can stand up to that nasty light.

Go ahead and name your driver, I'll tear him to pieces (even if I also think he good).

Gotten a little off track here, so I'll try and finish on topic.

Seb IMHO, is a star of the future, if not already. Mark is a great qualifier, and Sebs ability to put such brilliant laps in (fuel corrected or not) shows me how special he is. I don't hate him because he is beating Webber, I rate him because of it!

Mark is a very good driver. A Schumacher or Alonso? No. Better than half the current grid, absolutely (IMHO). While for most of the season there has only be hundredths in it (sometimes thousandths), I think Vettel will now start to open that up as his experience improves.

Mark is the perfect team mate for Vettle and Horner knows it. A name or star driver (ie anyone actually quicker than Webber) would upset the whole team and Vettel. Anyone else would not be quick enough.

Mark is quick enough to keep Vettle on his toes, so close that he cant back off for a millisecond. But Seb knows he just needs to stay on the limit and he is looking good.

[/rant]

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Why does Mark Webber polarise opinion so much?

For ages there wasn't an 'Ozzie' in F1 and then there was.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Why does Mark Webber polarise opinion so much?

I think it's because he was so highly rated coming from an underwhelming team... then when Webber ended up in credentialed teams he was only beating his teammate without setting the world on fire (or ending up on the podium).

The Webber fans always believed that Webber was a great driver needing a great car to show his true worth whereas the Webber cynics argued that that notion applies to most of the drivers in the field and that Webber was nobody really special.

Now that Red Bull are competitive, and Webber is being out-driven by his young teammate, the microscope is on Webber more than in the past. The factions are offering their opinions, as they do on forums.

You can make of stats what you will but the fact is Vettel has had more podiums than Webber and has been quicker in both qualifying and during the race more times than not. What's more, Vettel is getting the results at the pressure end of the championship while also having a slim chance to clinch the title.That says a lot about Vettels's mettle as he is obviously not over-driving the car and definitely not crashing.

I have no doubt Vettel and Button would now be vying for the championship had Vettel not had the poor luck with engine mishaps in the middle of the season.

RBR know they have a rare talent, and they will build the team around Vettel if they could hold onto him. Webber, however, should be planning to cement a drive in 2011, now, unless he is thinking of retirement...

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Why does Mark Webber polarise opinion so much?

I think it goes back to his early career when his team mates were nowhere near him in terms of talent, but unfortunately for him, (some of) his fan's pointed at this at how good Mark is, dispite his team mates being not upto the job.

Wrex, me old mate, Monotya may have been crap, but he did more with the equipment available to him than Mark has managed to do

The trouble with this arguement of course is, Mark has some very fanatical fan's, as did the likes of Villeneuve, Verstappen and maybe Montoya, and because others disagree with the fan's of these it must be because that person "hates" (named) driver, when in actual fact it's not because they hate that guy it's just that they don't agree with the fan of that driver!

I haven't got anything against Mark, i think he's one of the better drivers in F1, i like listening to his answer's when he's just had a dnf/failure/bad session or whatever and he has a microphone shoved in his face and he give's a frank and forthright answer or maybe when he's waiting to go out on the podium and, unbeknown to him, the camera picks up on him saying "[driver x] f$*!ed [driver y]", it's refreshing, it's just that i personally don't think he's as good as Sebastian, but where's the crime in that, i've got the feeling that no one will be as good as him. Trouble is, some other's seem to take that personally!

The irony of it is, that (and lots more other topics of course) are what this forum is all about, it wouldn't stay alive if it didn't. If someone posted a thread "driver x is the best in F1" and everyone else agreed with it, it would be a very short lived thread and who wants that!

[Super Hans]

The view of most on here prior to this season was that Vettel would shade Webber over the course of the year. From what I can see, that's exactly what has happened.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Well Webber explained that the ride height was set too low so the car bottomed out in practice. A driver error yes... but he was simply driving at the normal line and speed and was hardly to know that the adjustments done by the team were excessive.

The FL would indicate that Webber is perfectly capable of negotiating the Suzuka track without crashing, given a proper car.

All things being equal... soft tyres and low fuel and nothing to lose... is not that remarkable, really.

On your first point, a good driver would not crash even if the ride height were altered. Any good driver would be able to read the car's attitude irrespective of the set up. i.e. tyre pressure, tyre temperature, track temp, track condition etc... and be able to drive within those limits.

Saying the team did this to poor Mark is really a denial of the driver's basic responsibility to get the best out of the car and himself.

A lower ride height aids aerodynamics but with every adjustment to the car, there are apparent trade-offs.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Wrex

*yawn*
If I ever want to feel intelligent or smar
ter than I really am, all I need to do is come in here and read some posts from the anti-webber brigade.

I'd expand that to any Webber post.

[Kempi]

SSbaby: I agree with you on the FL in the race.

In the issue of low ride height and being able to adjust not so much. There is nothing a driver can really do when having too low a ride height. He catches a bump that he for some reason hasn't caught before, maybe because he tries a different line, and off he goes. Just think of aquaplaning in an F1 car on the straight: At times they spin off on straights because the bottom of the car settles on top of the water. Yes, they could drive slower, but only if they knew there was more water at that specific spot than at others.

If the team set the ride height too low, it's the team's fault. Not like the driver tells them to lower or raise it by a specific amount. He is no engineer, after all (and contrary to some folks thinking on some drivers).

[Knowlesy]

The people taking this thread seriously!

*facepalm*

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Kempi

SSbaby: I agree with you on the FL in the race.

In the issue of low ride height and being able to adjust not so much. There is nothing a driver can really do when having too low a ride height. He catches a bump that he for some reason hasn't caught before, maybe because he tries a different line, and off he goes. Just think of aquaplaning in an F1 car on the straight: At times they spin off on straights because the bottom of the car settles on top of the water. Yes, they could drive slower, but only if they knew there was more water at that specific spot than at others.

If the team set the ride height too low, it's the team's fault. Not like the driver tells them to lower or raise it by a specific amount. He is no engineer, after all (and contrary to some folks thinking on some drivers).

I agree with you to a point... but drivers give feedback to the team. The team makes the appropriate changes to the car based on the driver's input. Cars bottom out all the time... which is why we see sparks fly from underneath the car.

I wish Webber was man enough to just admit it was driver error instead of offering a technical 'out' and suggesting that his team was at least partially responsible for his spin. What's a 'slow' lap for again? IMHO, I don't think Webber has that 'feel' for the car and the track the same way that other higher calibre drivers have. That attempted pass on Alonso at Singapore where he overtook on the illegal part of the track is an indication to me that he sometimes doesn't have his brain engaged... a bit like white line fever.

Webber has spun and crashed on more than one occasion recently for different reasons... so it's a bit far fetched to think his team is not giving him adequate equipment. Not suggesting that that is what you are implying, btw.

[mac]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

On your first point, a good driver would not crash even if the ride height were altered. Any good driver would be able to read the car's attitude irrespective of the set up. i.e. tyre pressure, tyre temperature, track temp, track condition etc... and be able to drive within those limits.

Regardless of Webber's accident and the reasons for it - this is complete garbage...

If the car bottoms out and the wheels are no longer touching the ground I would suggest it is going to be pretty difficult for anyone other than the man upstairs to not lose control...

That's like saying that when a car flies through the air in an accident a good driver would be able to make sure it lands on its wheels...

As for Webber's accident, I have no reason to doubt his rationale for it. Remember that this was the first dry session of the weekend... Therefore the team would still have been playing around with things like ride heights (ride height is increased significantly in the wet to prevent aquaplaning - though a "good" driver should be able to avoid this anyway) and suspension settings.

As such it is quite likely that the ride height could have been set too low - especially as the teams had not been to Suzuka for three years...

He's not blaming the team - merely saying what happened. If there is a driver in F1 that will put his hand up and admit to a mistake, it is Webber - he is the least full of **** of all the drivers.