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Old 2 Mar 2010, 02:54 (Ref:2643079)   #926
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Originally Posted by tblincoe View Post
It wasn't Lola proper who didn't "have" the money - they were in several ways put in a bad monetary situation by a particular named sponsor. Lola produced, tested, and got a car to a race weekend under circumstances far more difficult than those faced by USF1. I've yet to hear a single F1 pundit lay the blame for the situation on anyone besides MCD and Mastercard. By comparison, USF1 hasn't even completed mandatory crash testing, let alone participated in any of the aforementioned racing activities. Once again, Lola was associated with a failure, but to even intimate that the two situations are related in the slightest so as to give USF1 the benefit of the doubt is beyond me.
And USF1 says it became dead in the water when sponsors pulled out. Yes, Lola certainly got farther along in the process than USF1. Still, however you want to slice it, Lola and USF1 both attempted to enter F1 and failed to compete because of a lack of money from sponsors. I really don't think I'm wildly off-base in making that observation.

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I'm not sure I'm understanding your point - because the way your last two posts have sounded, it seems as though you believe Richards was given an entry more than once. Prodrive never got the chance to be on the grid in 2010 because they didn't get an entry, and it had nothing to do with USF1 being a 'better' team on paper or otherwise. I can assure you that if the FIA wasn't hell-bent on a knee-jerk reaction to the FOTA row by mandating that any new entry be Cosworth-powered, a condition that resulted in a legal challenge I might add, then Prodrive would be headed to Bahrain as we speak.
Prodrive had an entry for 2008 and didn't make the field (and yes, for reasons that are completely understandable). They failed to get an entry in 2010... but they also had the opportunity to buy Renault or BMW Sauber. In the end they passed. I suspect they are not too keen on trying to build a car without the budget cap. I'm not at all sure they would attempt an entry in 2011.

And really, we're getting far afield from my basic point, which is simply this: people are acting as if Lola or Prodrive were somehow much more dependable choices than USF1. The fact remains, both teams were previously awarded entries and neither group successfully made it to the grid.

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Once again, opening up the process allows the FIA to accomplish all of these assessments you mention while allowing a comparison to other potential entries - and, more importantly, not being bound to USF1's promises which, up until now, leave something to be desired.

Okay, enough out of me!
Totally valid point. (Referring to the process, not that it's enough out of you. )
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 03:11 (Ref:2643085)   #927
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Totally valid point. (Referring to the process, not that it's enough out of you. )
LOL - it's okay, you can say it!
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 03:30 (Ref:2643092)   #928
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Still, however you want to slice it, Lola and USF1 both attempted to enter F1 and failed to compete because of a lack of money from sponsors. I really don't think I'm wildly off-base in making that observation.
There was a problem with sponsors money but the real problem was with MasterCard wanting the car to race in 1997 not 1998 as was intended and as a result the car was never tested in the wind tunnel. You might want to read this.

http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/lola/profile.html
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 03:45 (Ref:2643096)   #929
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There was a problem with sponsors money but the real problem was with MasterCard wanting the car to race in 1997 not 1998 as was intended and as a result the car was never tested in the wind tunnel. You might want to read this.

http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/lola/profile.html
Yes, I've read it.

Quote:
The MasterCard deal was said to be 'innovative', in that it depended upon using Lola's racing activities to draw in customers to the credit card program. This was never a guaranteed success in the first place, and it meant that cash was only trickling rather than flowing into the team.
Quote:
Both drivers went to Brazil, only to read in the newspapers that their team had collapsed. In the space of a few short months, Lola's Grand Prix arm had built up some 6 million pounds in debt, half of which was owed to parent company Lola Cars. The risky sponsorship program with MasterCard had not helped things at all.
The car was awful because of the timetable shift. The team folded because it had no sponsor money.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 03:59 (Ref:2643101)   #930
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Yes, I've read it. The car was awful because of the timetable shift. The team folded because it had no sponsor money.
You can't have read this bit,

"But despite all this reference to wind tunnel work, the amazing thing was that the T97/30 never actually saw a wind tunnel - there was just not the time." ,

or this bit,

"In addition, there were gremlins with the gearbox, but the biggest problem lay with the aerodynamics. The car just could not generate enough mechanical or aerodynamic grip, and could therefore not get the tyres up to temperature. Amazingly, the drivers reported that the car had too much drag in a straight line, compromising their top speed, but the same package then in turn could not generate enough downforce going through the turns, thereby compromising cornering speed as well. The T97/30 was fundamentally flawed, and the lack of wind-tunnel time had made it even more of a joke.

That's why MasterCard pulled out because thanks to them the car was a complete lemon due to no wind tunnel testing.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 04:16 (Ref:2643108)   #931
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You can't have read this bit,

"But despite all this reference to wind tunnel work, the amazing thing was that the T97/30 never actually saw a wind tunnel - there was just not the time." ,

or this bit,

"In addition, there were gremlins with the gearbox, but the biggest problem lay with the aerodynamics. The car just could not generate enough mechanical or aerodynamic grip, and could therefore not get the tyres up to temperature. Amazingly, the drivers reported that the car had too much drag in a straight line, compromising their top speed, but the same package then in turn could not generate enough downforce going through the turns, thereby compromising cornering speed as well. The T97/30 was fundamentally flawed, and the lack of wind-tunnel time had made it even more of a joke.

That's why MasterCard pulled out because thanks to them the car was a complete lemon due to no wind tunnel testing.
OK, two points.

1) The sponsorship wasn't providing an adequate budget in the first place. The team collapsed under debt after one round of the championship.

2) You are arguing against a point I never made. Again, here is my point: Lola had an entry and couldn't make the grid. You can make all the excuses for them that you want, and the excuses are generally quite legitimate. The reality remains: Lola and Prodrive have both had entries and failed to make the grid. There is nothing in Lola's previous failure to make the grid that tells me they were a great bet to make it in 2010.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 04:21 (Ref:2643110)   #932
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Lola got the car to Australia a year earlier than planned and is just wasn't competative, due to no time for wind tunnel testing. USF1 haven't even got a car, just an incomplete chassis like the Falcon Indy Car project, that was also overseen by Ken Anderson.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 04:41 (Ref:2643112)   #933
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Lola got the car to Australia a year earlier than planned and is just wasn't competative, due to no time for wind tunnel testing. USF1 haven't even got a car, just an incomplete chassis like the Falcon Indy Car project, that was also overseen by Ken Anderson.
Look, I'm perfectly willing to stipulate that Lola is the greatest team ever to show up for one race, DNQ 11+ seconds off the pace, and fold.

USF1 consists of a rented building, a tub that may be left over from an IndyCar failure, and a few guys who may or may not be building a toaster.

The FIA looked at proposals from both teams and decided USF1 looked better.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 04:50 (Ref:2643119)   #934
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I'm not arguing about Lola being passed over in favor of USF1, I was merely pointing out that Lola's previous failure was down to the timetable being changed and thus no wind tunnel testing; the result a non competative car. Your argument for their failure was there was no sponsor money/the sponsor pulling out, you never included any of the other factors.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 05:04 (Ref:2643121)   #935
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Use Thursdays.

Two practice sessions.

Fastest 26 drivers are allowed to take part in the rest of the weekend (although each team can only have two drivers progress: the team can decide which two progress). Each team can run as many drivers as they wish in these sessions, but only two chassis may be used.

I know the CA makes it impossible, and all that, but it is all so simple. All the problems of whether a team is able to compete, or what not, are defined by natural selection.

They are either able to get in or they are not.

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Old 2 Mar 2010, 06:04 (Ref:2643141)   #936
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i really was hoping for a strong USF1 team, and was genuinely pleased when they were awarded the entry slot to this year's championship.

However, i now wish the FIA would pull the pin on this entry and award it to Stefan GP. as soon as possible.

there is nothing unique about USF1's position this year - with a sponsor supposedly pulling out (let's call them ScapegoatCorp), and there is no guarantee that (should the FIA grant a 1 year extension) the same thing wouldnt occur next year as well... and what do we do then? grant another year?

Simply put, the failings do not all lie at the feet of ScapegoatCorp... There is no car, as far as i know (correct if wrong) the basic crash tests have not been satisfied, they have reportedly lied to their driver lineup about their advancement, and the wheels have totally fallen off the organisation.

Either through poor planning, poor management or poor direction, they have nothing to show. this is not solely a sponsor failing, there are obviously major flaws elsewhere in this outfit. They're not just short of money, they've got no car, they've got no engines, they've got no drivers anymore. There's very little to salvage...

i wonder if anyone knows the terms of the contract USF1 have with the FIA for their entry, and what constitutes grounds for termination of that contract? Do they have to wait until USF1 dont show for 3 races? Do USF1 have to denounce their entry?

I'm guessing the FIA have to be careful of their grounds for terminating the contract, as they dont want to trigger an exit for Campos as well, who are reportedly back on track to racing this year, but may miss the first race.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 06:09 (Ref:2643144)   #937
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What proof do we have though that StefanGP can have an entry for 2011? What's their pedigree?
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 06:12 (Ref:2643146)   #938
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I am sure the FIA will have a catch-all get-out clause which allows them to terminate the entry at their discretion, should they so desire. I am sure they have the same for allowing entries.

I admit wholeheartedly I am assuming the above, but I would be very surprised if reality was different.

In the same way governments have such a clause in any Acts they enact.

Using the clause could, indeed likely would, cause a huge PR nightmare, so, well, they rarely (if ever) do, but the clause(s) exist...
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 08:46 (Ref:2643193)   #939
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Lola and Prodrive have both had entries and failed to make the grid. There is nothing in Lola's previous failure to make the grid that tells me they were a great bet to make it in 2010.
Mastercard Lola, the team involved in the abortive effort in 1997, went into receivership that year taking Lola Cars with it. Irish property magnate, former racer and the owner of Mondello Park, Martin Birrane, purchased 'the company' from the receiver [I'm assuming some of the assets and none of the debt] and effectively started again. Since then Lola has been trading, albeit at a loss mainly, but nevertheless without any problems. By and large this is because it has a very affluent and passionate benefactor in Martin Birrane.

The principals involved with Lola today have nothing to do with those involved in Lola 13 years ago. If Lola's failure back then predicated its chances of a place on the 2010 grid, that would be very bizarre indeed... and would lead me to draw serious question marks over the FIA 'evaluation process' for prospective teams.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 09:12 (Ref:2643202)   #940
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Mastercard Lola, the team involved in the abortive effort in 1997, went into receivership that year taking Lola Cars with it. Irish property magnate, former racer and the owner of Mondello Park, Martin Birrane, purchased 'the company' from the receiver [I'm assuming some of the assets and none of the debt] and effectively started again. Since then Lola has been trading, albeit at a loss mainly, but nevertheless without any problems. By and large this is because it has a very affluent and passionate benefactor in Martin Birrane.

The principals involved with Lola today have nothing to do with those involved in Lola 13 years ago. If Lola's failure back then predicated its chances of a place on the 2010 grid, that would be very bizarre indeed... and would lead me to draw serious question marks over the FIA 'evaluation process' for prospective teams.
Yes, very good point. I would also add that if we are comparing Lola/USF1, at least Lola is more of a creditable manufacturer than USF1, for the obvious reason that they actually already build race cars. I'm not trying to hammer another nail into the coffin of USF1 - I'd have loved to see them succeed - just stating the facts.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 09:48 (Ref:2643212)   #941
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I guess the FIA and maybe Ecclestone/FOM wanted an American team to increase awareness in the US. imo they didn't look at heritage or racing pedegree at all.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 10:01 (Ref:2643215)   #942
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I thought I actually read somewhere a while back that Lola actually got as far down the road as designing and building a tub by Autumn, before their entry was snubbed. Now that's a damn sight further than any of the lot we've got now managed to do at that stage.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 10:21 (Ref:2643216)   #943
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If memory serves me correctly, I think Martin Birrane did take on some of the debts. and I do believe, like yourself that Lola is a far better bet than USF1

John


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Mastercard Lola, the team involved in the abortive effort in 1997, went into receivership that year taking Lola Cars with it. Irish property magnate, former racer and the owner of Mondello Park, Martin Birrane, purchased 'the company' from the receiver [I'm assuming some of the assets and none of the debt] and effectively started again. Since then Lola has been trading, albeit at a loss mainly, but nevertheless without any problems. By and large this is because it has a very affluent and passionate benefactor in Martin Birrane.

The principals involved with Lola today have nothing to do with those involved in Lola 13 years ago. If Lola's failure back then predicated its chances of a place on the 2010 grid, that would be very bizarre indeed... and would lead me to draw serious question marks over the FIA 'evaluation process' for prospective teams.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 11:05 (Ref:2643225)   #944
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Now that it's clear that "Team Falcon" a/k/a USF1 are going to pull another Falcon i.e. don't make it to the races due to not having a car, why don't they just withdraw quietly? They won't get any TV money if they don't show up anyway so they cannot pay that to there creditors. Effectively, there is no use in staying in the series apart from further bad publicity.

Looking at it now, it is surprising that the FIA neither allowed in ProDrive (who had the sponsors but not the car and a track record of already not showing up once) nor Lola (who already had almost a car of their own, but no funding and a track record of early withdrawal when former owner Eric Broadley's credit card limit was reached at their previous attempt).

Dave Richards could have assembled the people to build him a car with more ease than USF1 because he knows the technical people from his previous involvements in the series and ProDrive are based in GB. Dubai's troubles with the financial crisis may not have helped this team, though.

And Lola, they would have been a better bet than Campos because even if they would still have no sponsorship in place, at least they wouldn't have to buy their car but had built it in house. Colin Kolles has reportedly said that there was nothing in the Campos Meta garage.

Sure, the perspective of having US American involvement in F1 again was tempting for the FIA. But Anderson didn't turn out to be a Revson, to say the least.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 12:21 (Ref:2643244)   #945
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I thought I actually read somewhere a while back that Lola actually got as far down the road as designing and building a tub by Autumn, before their entry was snubbed. Now that's a damn sight further than any of the lot we've got now managed to do at that stage.
They certainly built a windtunnel model and the car was given a designated name - the B10/30 (or MB-01 in deference to Birrane)

Of course Lola were a better prospect than US F1, that was easily apparent from the outset. I just think it was more than being the best team - they couldn't just include 3 new British teams because the teams from other countries would accuse Mosley of being biased towards the Brits
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 12:37 (Ref:2643248)   #946
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I think what people have to remember is that Prodrive were indeed awarded a grid slot for 2008, they then had their plans scuppered by indecision over the direction of chassis rules. I believe their original plan was to use a customer chassis for the first 1-2 years before switching over to constructing their own in the 3rd year.

However, back to my original point. Prodrive were awarded a slot on the grid, so therefore the FIA must have deemed them a "fit and worthy" candidate for F1, so when they re-applied in 2009 and they were turned down, that effectively meant that USF1, Campos and Manor were all better options than a team that had already been granted an entry 2 years earlier...
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 12:45 (Ref:2643253)   #947
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However, back to my original point. Prodrive were awarded a slot on the grid, so therefore the FIA must have deemed them a "fit and worthy" candidate for F1, so when they re-applied in 2009 and they were turned down, that effectively meant that USF1, Campos and Manor were all better options than a team that had already been granted an entry 2 years earlier...
Conversely, they were awarded an entry and didn't follow through, so it could be argued that that was a good reason why they were not "fit and worthy"
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 12:51 (Ref:2643263)   #948
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Of course Lola were a better prospect than US F1, that was easily apparent from the outset. I just think it was more than being the best team - they couldn't just include 3 new British teams because the teams from other countries would accuse Mosley of being biased towards the Brits
Hit the nail on the head there I believe, the attraction of both Campos and USF1 was the fact that they were NOT British, and in the haste to include them, the viability of their bids was not perhaps fully examined.
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 12:57 (Ref:2643268)   #949
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The stupid thing is the best non-British bid (and arguably the best bid of all from a facilities and team members POV) was seemingly rejected because of the engine in the back. But then that was the political situation of the time
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Old 2 Mar 2010, 13:10 (Ref:2643275)   #950
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Conversely, they were awarded an entry and didn't follow through, so it could be argued that that was a good reason why they were not "fit and worthy"
True, however you could say that the reason they didn't make it was that the rules surrounding customer cars were up in the air, as it turns out, Torro Rosso have been using a "customer" chassis for the past 2-3 years due to what I guess can be termed as a loophole.

Again, the new 2010 teams had their "goalposts" moved also by the FIA when the budget cap was scrapped. So in both instances, the 2008 entry and the 2010 had the rules for entry blurred by the governing body and FOTA.
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