[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Adam43]

Cheers Makes sense.

I'll update when I get the bulletin.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by tomcug

https://en.endurance-info.com/auto/a...-francorchamps
New BOP (paywalled for now). Except for small weight bump for the 499P all changes are negligible.

Thanks for the info

[Matador]

Originally Posted by tomcug

https://en.endurance-info.com/auto/a...-francorchamps
New BOP (paywalled for now). Except for small weight bump for the 499P all changes are negligible.

+3kg -1kw for Alpine, BMW
+2kg 0kw for IF
+1kg -2kw for Lambo
+0kg -1kw for Caddy

+12kg -4kw for Ferrari
+4kg -1kw for Toyota, Porsche
+4kg -2kw for Peugeot

[Adam43]

Danke schön.

Does the energy allocation change with the power like normal?

[S griffin]

It’s intriguing how much Ferrari has been punished compared to others

[Adam43]

I also wonder if we’ll see the power gain over 210km/h for Spa. Or will that be a Le Mans thing. You’d think they’d want to try it out before the biggy.

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s intriguing how much Ferrari has been punished compared to others

Correcting the changes for Imola. Thus proving beyond any doubt that it was fixed for Imola. Imola is in Italy. Ferrari are from Italy.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Matador

+3kg -1kw for Alpine, BMW
+2kg 0kw for IF
+1kg -2kw for Lambo
+0kg -1kw for Caddy

+12kg -4kw for Ferrari
+4kg -1kw for Toyota, Porsche
+4kg -2kw for Peugeot

Again thank you.

Weight (Kg)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	1062	1030		1049	1038	1057	1048	1030
8/3/2023	Portimao	1043	1030		1042	1035	1040	1045	1030
31/5/2023	Le Mans	1080	1030		1042	1046	1064	1048	1030
3/7/2023	Monza	1080	1030		1046	1032	1069	1049	1030
3/7/2023	Fuji	1080	1030		1038	1039	1076	1054	1030
3/7/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1037	1075	1053	1030
26/10/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1030	1075	1046	1030
16/2/2024	Qatar	1089			1030	1032	1075	1048		1070	1060	1041	1085
12/4/2024	Imola	1060			1061	1030	1041	1033		1042	1035	1034	1058
4/5/2024	Spa	1064			1065	1030	1053	1037		1045	1038	1035	1060
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Max Power (kW)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	517	520		518	513	515	517	511
8/3/2023	Portimao	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
31/5/2023	Le Mans	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
3/7/2023	Monza	507	520		520	498	497	506	520
3/7/2023	Fuji	514	520		520	505	505	514	520
3/7/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
26/10/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
16/2/2024	Qatar	510			520	499	503	505		510	506	502	514
12/4/2024	Imola	516			510	517	510	508		514	511	516	520
4/5/2024	Spa	515			508	516	506	507		513	510	514	520
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Still playing it safe with the new Peugeot. I think they over estimate how good it might be

[Adam43]

And the changes since Imola relative to Toyota.

Ferrari lose out. Porsche too (slightly) and also the Peugeot which the ACO must see massive potential in Actually they are playing it safe with the new car - it is likely they haven't sorted the new car yet.

Everyone else with a little gain over Toyota.

Small changes as advertised. Which is good for a field that is as close as this.

Also shown are the Qatar to Spa differences.

I did this pretty quickly - shout if you catch an errors.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Danke schön.

Does the energy allocation change with the power like normal?

Bitte!


The article didn't mention.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Again thank you.


Still playing it safe with the new Peugeot. I think they over estimate how good it might be

NP, happy to help. Thank you for the tables and graphs!!



The BoP on the new Peugeot is slightly perplexing, maybe they are setting them up for their big break come Le Mans . More so though, they seem to believe the IF should be quick? I'd love to see that car in the hands of more capable drivers.

Originally Posted by Adam43

I also wonder if we’ll see the power gain over 210km/h for Spa. Or will that be a Le Mans thing. You’d think they’d want to try it out before the biggy.

Correcting the changes for Imola. Thus proving beyond any doubt that it was fixed for Imola. Imola is in Italy. Ferrari are from Italy.

According to the article, no go on the power gain over 210km/h parameter yet. Maybe after Le Mans?


LOL of course they gave Ferrari the opportunity to shine at Imola

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s intriguing how much Ferrari has been punished compared to others

Is it really? Huge pace at Imola, huge pace last year at Spa. The change was expected and I think it still will be their race to lose. Remembering last year and considering how good Caddy's BOP is, I'd say they can be super strong too but probably no. CGR are absolutely terrible this year in the WEC..

Originally Posted by Adam43

also the Peugeot which the ACO must see massive potential in

They surely do But Le Mans BOP is (as they said) "special" so probably they'll get some break there.

Originally Posted by Adam43

I also wonder if we’ll see the power gain over 210km/h for Spa. Or will that be a Le Mans thing.

Neither. Which is both sad and strange they don't even want to try this useful tool to better balance the cars...

[S griffin]

I somehow expect Ferrari can still be competitive. At least they will probably have to work for the next one. You have to say the changes should keep it close without making a mockery of the series

[flatlandsman]

You see BoP at it's worst at Brands, the racing was not great, rather dull in fact, close but dull, nobody can pass unless one driver makes a mistake.

This is shy I am starting to fall out of love a little with GT3, not because of the drivers or cars but largely because of BoP., but how else would you run it?

Success ballast? Reverse grids, don't know perhaps this is the best way

[TF110]

I still think the Ferrari will be the best. Maybe not as far agead as Imola but if it's a 3-way race with them Toyota and Porsche again, that'll be great.

[Adam43]

Just glanced at the Energy allocation. Interesting while the power goes down for all except Isotta Fraschini the energy allocation increases for all except Lamborghini.

I’ve seen it just move in step with the power before, but there looks like there are some small corrections this time.

I’ll update the tables later.

[Sodemo]

Can we have a discussion about the pace of the Toyotas?

So what exactly is happening here, have they produced a bad car, have the rest caught up or are they just getting a bad hand in the BOP game?

[flatlandsman]

I think certain tracks seem to suit their car,, they were quick at Imola but maybe the weather helped, I do not think they are miles away but certainly Spa was not good for them, Ferrari were clearly a lot quicker as were Caddy and Porsche.

I think we have to wait for LM to truly see.

[Steve McQ]

Toyota have a good car, but it reached its full potential already while others are still developping. They got penalised by the BoP last year because they were more ready than the others, but now the other guys (Ferrari and Porsche mostly, Cadillac maybe) are getting into grips with their machines, and the BoP still keeps the trend of last year making the GR010 a bit too slow.
Furthermore, Toyota learned the hardway that it was pointless to show pace before Le Mans as the BoP is actually a balance of result. So I can't keep thinking they are not running harder thant 98.5% of they real potential, keeping something in their sleeve for Le Mans. They don't care about the WEC anymore, thet want Le Mans.

[TF110]

Idk if it's right to talk about the bop and it's fairness, but that's kinda what confuses me about the bop in the wec. I find it hard to tell if it's trying to equalize the cars on results, performance, capability or all the above. Seems like its all and none at the same time. Imo, all the cars should have a set weight and power then let them do their thing, but that seems unlikely to appear anytime soon.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TF110

Idk if it's right to talk about the bop and its fairness, but that's kinda what confuses me about the bop in the wec. I find it hard to tell if it's trying to equalize the cars on results, performance, capability or all the above. Seems like it’s all and none at the same time.

Balancing by results and balancing by potential will look very similar!

But considering that the results haven’t been evenly spread and some cars, while close, aren’t winning then it looks like it is about potential. And that is their stated aim.

Imo, all the cars should have a set weight and power then let them do their thing, but that seems unlikely to appear anytime soon.

It’s very unlikely because that is simply not how it is set up under this rule set!

[chernaudi]

Set power and weight is how things were done in LMP900 and LMP1 until we entered the BOP era (including the old EOT period). The usual result was that the team with most resources and such typically was dominant.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Can we have a discussion about the pace of the Toyotas?

So what exactly is happening here, have they produced a bad car, have the rest caught up or are they just getting a bad hand in the BOP game?

This is baffling me too, almost to the point of irritation. It does feel as if they've hit a performance ceiling with this car and that the 499P and 963 are simply better.

[J Jay]

Toyota are "paying" for having the early jump on hypercar; we see this all the time with the constant revisions/upgrades to GT3 cars when they fall off the ultimate pace after 3-4 years. They've not done too badly out of it though, with two Le Mans and WEC titles before everyone else stepped up.

Having said all of that, they have the experience to maximise the GR010's potential the most at Le Mans, I'd still have them in the mix at the front.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Toyota are "paying" for having the early jump on hypercar; we see this all the time with the constant revisions/upgrades to GT3 cars when they fall off the ultimate pace after 3-4 years. They've not done too badly out of it though, with two Le Mans and WEC titles before everyone else stepped up.

Having said all of that, they have the experience to maximise the GR010's potential the most at Le Mans, I'd still have them in the mix at the front.

Yes, I think that's the reality I was hinting at. Toyota have been in this situation before, of course.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

This is baffling me too, almost to the point of irritation. It does feel as if they've hit a performance ceiling with this car and that the 499P and 963 are simply better.

Considering the GR010 is a heavily compromised car being originally developed before the current rule set was completed, this is entirely possible. However, I think it's unfair to assume that until we can see their relative one lap pace, raceability, tire management and fuel efficiency with all of them at minimum weight and maximum power with no limit on energy allocation.... so bascially, we'll speculate forever.

Originally Posted by J Jay

Toyota are "paying" for having the early jump on hypercar; we see this all the time with the constant revisions/upgrades to GT3 cars when they fall off the ultimate pace after 3-4 years. They've not done too badly out of it though, with two Le Mans and WEC titles before everyone else stepped up.

Having said all of that, they have the experience to maximise the GR010's potential the most at Le Mans, I'd still have them in the mix at the front.

Very well might be the case as long as the Ferraris straight line speed is brought in check. I think Toyota and Porsche's BoP is quite close, with Porshce having only a slight advantage, especially over a lap.

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Toyota have a good car, but it reached its full potential already while others are still developping. They got penalised by the BoP last year because they were more ready than the others, but now the other guys (Ferrari and Porsche mostly, Cadillac maybe) are getting into grips with their machines, and the BoP still keeps the trend of last year making the GR010 a bit too slow.
Furthermore, Toyota learned the hardway that it was pointless to show pace before Le Mans as the BoP is actually a balance of result. So I can't keep thinking they are not running harder thant 98.5% of they real potential, keeping something in their sleeve for Le Mans. They don't care about the WEC anymore, thet want Le Mans.

Honestly. I feel Toyota is doing the mother of all sandbagging right now, maybe not hoping to gain on the BoP, but rather to not get the hammer like it did last year (unfairly so). I guess we won't be able to tell come raceweek, but I do hope that they are on point, and luck goes in their favour for once. Looking forward to a hard fought but well deserved win (some of the borderline xenophobic haters will finally have to shut up).

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Yes, I think that's the reality I was hinting at. Toyota have been in this situation before, of course.

Yeah, it's a long-term effect of BoP regulations. One manufacturer notices they're behind, they make "reliability" updates. They're suddenly the class of the field. Every other factory does the same over 3-4 years, rinse and repeat.

What Toyota still have over everyone (apart from Porsche?) is the combination of experience and available resources. It's harder to balance those.

Originally Posted by Matador

Honestly. I feel Toyota is doing the mother of all sandbagging right now, maybe not hoping to gain on the BoP, but rather to not get the hammer like it did last year (unfairly so). I guess we won't be able to tell come raceweek, but I do hope that they are on point, and luck goes in their favour for once. Looking forward to a hard fought but well deserved win (some of the borderline xenophobic haters will finally have to shut up).

They're no strangers to playing these games, but they've never been subtle about it (e.g. Vasselon's rather-public annual Le Mans complaints), and it is harder to do with more relevant, more even competition. A win in this era would go a long way to demonstrating their prowess. It won't shut up all the detractors, because the obvious (incorrect) criticism would be that they only won "because of BoP," but hopefully it would quell most of the noise.