Ralf/Alonso incident (merged threads)

[Rossi # 46]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Totally agree.

The scary part is that Ralf´s obviously has no clue of what he did. He says he took the inside line in the tunnel. backing off from the throttle in order to let Alonso pass. Well, of course, that is exactly what he did, but that triggered the crash, Under these circumstances, Alonso had no other option than to swerve past on the outside, where dust and marbles inevitably robbed him of his grip. Surely, Ralf should´ve understood the risks he took by slowing down on the inside in the tunnel, but as it seems, Ralf feels he did the right thing by doing that. How can that be?

Cause the guy has no idea about racing! The guy is quick in an F1 car when he is on his own, but put him in amongst other cars and he hasnt a clue how to race or overtake.

Ralf should look into Drag racing.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Panzer
I wouldn't speculate who was at fault, but if Ralph passed 7 blue flags where was the penalty, arn't you only supposed to get 4 blue flags?
:confused:

As the incident has been looked into, and no penalties have been given, I guess we can say for sure that there have not been that many blue flags.

[AndyF]

Originally posted by RWC
I was waiting for someone more knowledgeable than me on monaco's passing spots to explain this.
It seems very suspicious of Ralf to apparently deliberately give Alonso little choice but to pass at a very dangerous part of the track.
I've been suspicious of Ralfs incidents for awhile now.He seems to reserve all his on track tallent for manipulating crashes out of others......

I don't agree with this point of view. Yes, maybe Alonso had to pass at that spot because Ralf was slowing, but why did Alonso himself not slow down? Looking at it crudely, Alonso had plenty of time to slow down - he could see Ralf was struggling in front of him, so if he decides he wants to make a pass on the 'marbles' he should have considered the fact he should have made it at a slower speed. It may be a tunnel, but its the same as any other corner - if you want to overtake or lap someone off-line you need to do it at a slower speed.

[Glen]

Yes but Ralf invited him to come past by lifting abruptly, and then accelerated again so that Alonso couldn't get back on to the line. Alonso was racing for the win at the time - he can't spend valuable time slamming on the brakes when he has already been offered the pass.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Glen
......................by lifting abruptly, and then accelerated again ............

Do we have telemtry to prove this? Likewise does anybody know if it is true that Ralf only had fourth gear by that time?

[Adam43]

Originally posted by garcon
Already in discussion in the following thread...

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=54678

Indeed, threads merged.

[BootsOntheSide]

Without the telemetry, and exact details on how Ralf's car was at the time, it's hard to be compeltely clear on it. Unless Ralf slowed unexpectedly in front of him, it may have been rash of Alonso to try and go round the outside of Ralf in the tunnel. If Ralf was running close to the right speeda t that point, he'd've only lost about a second to Trulli, and has to accept that losing time to backmarkers can happen, especially at Monaco, but it ultimately levels itself up over a 77-lap race.

However, Ralf was being lapped, and should've probably got out of the way before the tunnel, especially as he knew he had a problem.

These two guys probably have the worst record for avoidable foolhardy accidents in teh last coupple of years, and while Ralf is much more experienced and rarely seems to get through a race weekend without an incident, Alonso should be learning by now. There's probably a blame element for both of them.

[Glen]

Obviously I don't have telemetry to prove it, but Alonso said it, and Ralf didn't deny it.

[garcon]

My initial reaction in all this was to blame Ralf. Commentators on Radio 5 certainly did. Johnny Herbert said it was typically arrogant of Ralf. On ITV, Martin Brundle initially blamed Alonso, saying you never go to the outside of the tunnel for that very reason. But having seen replays, he did put some blame at Ralf's door for seemingly offering the outside line to Alonso.

In the end, I have a feeling it's a bit less clear cut than most of us would like it to be. As usual, shades of grey rather than clear black and white. It's not obvious from the coverage how long Alonso had been behind Ralf - over half a lap and he's bound to be getting frustrated. Nor can we tell whether - or by how much - Ralf lifted in the tunnel, and if he did whether it really was his intention to let Alonso by on the outside. Finally, unless Alonso really couldn't avoid it due to Ralf lifting dramatically on the rcing line, it was impatient to say the least of Alonso to take that line - he should have known it wouldn't work.

So, too little information to clearly blame either driver. In my view, some inexperience from Alonso - whatever Ralf did a more seasoned driver may have survived. And as for Ralf, I'm sorry to say yet more reason to suggest that at best he's got other things on his mind and at worst he's circulating half asleep - which makes him an exceedingly dangerous and unpredictable mobile chicane. Maybe he is still concussed...

[RWC]

Oh,one thing i should mention-
Assuming ralf got back on the throttle MUST have been a bad thing just a guess.
There is a certain momentom involved in slowing and speeding up again so it might be entirely normal for the driver being passed to hit the throttle just when the passing car is right beside.....
maybe

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
I've just read that the Williams had only fourth gear.

I wondered about this, Lenny Kravitz was saying from the pits that he suspected a gearbox problem of some sort, but Rafe managed to pull away from his pitstop with no worries (judging from his onboard shots at the time).

Maybe he was losing more and more as the race went on?

Even so, if it's true that he only had 4 th gear, someone of Rafes experience should know that had Alonso had to overtake in the tunnel, a crash was likely.

[Peter Mallett]

There were a number of lapping moves in the race and all of the successful ones happened just after the tunnel. Trulli passed a few cars like that where he'd caught them at the hairpin yet did nothing until the end of the tunnel.

Why did Alonso do it in the tunnel?

And whilst Alonso was quick to wave the fist, I can't help thinking that he was a bit hot headed.

The camera doesn't really help either because from the angles it looked like Ralf was as far over as he could get. But I detect a certain amount of prejudice here. "We don't have the telemetry but Alonso said it and Ralf didn't deny it" is quite sad really. I think it was 50/50 at best and Alonso's impatience at worst.

[ASCII Man]

I've read in a Belgian newspaper that featured a quote from Alonso stating that he was behind Ralf for several laps and that Ralf ignored the blue flags repeatedly.

But then again, why wasn't this then investigated just like with da Matta?

[N I Tram]

It seemed 50/50 to me, Alonso should've been more patient and Ralf should've been more considerate. The way Fernando rushed to blame Ralf, and link it to previous incidents, was childish and arrogant.

[Glen]

What's "sad" about it? - it is perfectly true, I haven't made it up! If Ralf had done entirely the right thing he would have been quick to say so and specific with it... for example if he hadn't slowed at all and was intending to let him through at the chicane (most sensible) I'm sure he would have said just that.

[tater]

i agree with N I Tram

maybe ralph can be a dick, but to say he wants people to crash is stupid i dont think anyone races like that, i think one of the worst things a backmaker can do is drive looking whats behind him that defo causes accidents. Alonso was too impatient no mater how slow a backmaker is going you shouldnt do stupid overtaking chances and then when you dont make it blame the other driver for getting in the way. Button was held up by backmakers but he didnt do any stupid overtaking and ended up 2nd.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by N I Tram
It seemed 50/50 to me, Alonso should've been more patient and Ralf should've been more considerate. The way Fernando rushed to blame Ralf, and link it to previous incidents, was childish and arrogant.

Generally I concur Martin. But I still think Alonso had more control of the situation than Ralf. All he could do was hold his line whilst Alonso could have waited for a better spot. It was subsequesntly proved by Button that patience would still bring him up to the back of Trulli.

[BootsOntheSide]

If Ralf had been recieving blue flags for several laps, consdiering that he had a problem, then the blame shifts predomenantly towards him. Maybe Alonso's previous laptimes can give a clue as to whether Ralf was holding him up?

[Peter Mallett]

Yeah but the stewards didn't take any action against him so one has to assume that he hadn't ignored blue flags. And ignoring blue flags doesn't make you responsible for the actions of others. So I still think that in this case we are trying to blame him just because we don't like him.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Glen
Obviously I don't have telemetry to prove it, but Alonso said it, and Ralf didn't deny it.

If I remember correctly, Ralf *did* deny it.

And I seem to remember someone saying that the telemetry did *not* show Ralf accelerating after having slowed down.
(Don't know whether the telemetry did actually show that Ralf *did not* accelerate, however.)

[Don K]

Originally posted by Mr V
I wondered about this, Lenny Kravitz was saying from the pits that he suspected a gearbox problem of some sort, but Rafe managed to pull away from his pitstop with no worries (judging from his onboard shots at the time).

Maybe he was losing more and more as the race went on?

Even so, if it's true that he only had 4 th gear, someone of Rafes experience should know that had Alonso had to overtake in the tunnel, a crash was likely.

I seem to remember, that he lost 5th, 6th and 7th during the race.

So in this case "only 4th gear" probably means "only 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th gear".

[ralf fan]

having watched the race again... Alonso came up close enough to lap RS only at the entry of the tunnel!!!

Alonso being held up for several laps and several corners is nonsense!!

[Gt_R]

I find it quite unfair. The press, and this forum, has a tendency to disregard what happens and just throw the stone at Ralf, not because it made sense, but just because out of dislike.

Alonso simply lost it himself. To blame Ralf for everything is kinda ridiculous.

[eatapc]

If ralf fan is correct that there were no blue flags and that Alonso had not been following Ralf for several corners, then there should be no controversy: Alonso screwed the pooch.