[Rules] Time to scrap the safety car?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by mattt

They tried out another system today after FP2, getting rid of the Delta time and getting the drivers to drive at "Safety Car Speed" and then the safety car pops out in front. Step in the right direction?

And Anthony Davidson said that the advantage would go to the driver who managed the highest interpretation of Safety Car speed without being penalised, which proves the point that the drivers can't be trusted.

Originally Posted by Peat

The new rules are just another example of F1 big-headedness.

If they were sensible, they would adopt a rule like IndyCar. Yellows out, Pits closed. Once everyone is in a line, the pits open. Simple.

But no, they have to create something overly complicated each time.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Matt

So his car will be lighter and will be able to go faster than the rest of the cars, thus being able to pull out another big lead.

You can't win this one.

But the others can push harder, because they've more fuel left.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The driver should have chosen a different strategy. I don't think any experienced driver would charge off and burn up so much fuel that he would jeopardise his race in the event of a full course yellow.

The use of the SC is ultimately for the safety of the track marshalls and to help any emergency services that are needed. As much as it would be extremely annoying to lose a big lead, I think any driver would agree that the safety of the marshalls and the use of emergency services outweighs anything else.

If, as it's been claimed, the SC is used in F1 to spice up the racing, then that's a situation F1 needs to clear up and is something that's risen out of the missuse of the SC, not use of the SC per se.

Interestingly, before the Safety Car was introduced no-one ever proposed its introduction. And in modern days there are a number of fairer alternatives. Not choosing one of those alternatives, means that safety is no longer the main reason for having the Safety Car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Interestingly, before the Safety Car was introduced no-one ever proposed its introduction. And in modern days there are a number of fairer alternatives. Not choosing one of those alternatives, means that safety is no longer the main reason for having the Safety Car.

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean in the first part of this paragraph.

As for safety no longer the main reason, I presume you are referring to the SC being used to spice up the racing in F1?

[Woolley]

They seemed to largely follow the American system at Silverstone (although claiming it was something new) and surprisingly it worked fairly well. Funny that, who'd have thought it?

Now if we can just get American coms installed and throw away the SC board and replace it with the double single yellow things would be even easier for the marshals.

Then they just need to work out that if you're pointlessly waving a green flag at every post afterwards it means you can't use the blue for the backmarkers that are in the middle of the pack.

[Flyin Ryan]

Pingguest: Interestingly, before the Safety Car was introduced no-one ever proposed its introduction.

The whole "fairness" argument that the leader loses a big lead I've never understood at all. This is auto racing, since when did "fairness" ever play a role? Is it fair that Vettel had to pit with a flat tire a lap into the race because Lewis Hamilton's front wing clipped it? You can't say it's Vettel's fault that a guy's wing ran into his right rear. It pretty much ruined his race while Webber still won, so that incident was far more unfair to Vettel than the caution was to Webber. Yet, we're not going to ensure Vettel gets back to 2nd place are we? Of course not. Why? Because of the catch-all phrase we have in the States that describes all bad luck, whether you get a flat on lap 1 or a caution comes out when you have a big lead: "that's racin'."

The leader's job when leading is to put as many cars as he can a lap down, because if a caution comes out, those people can't catch up to him. That's the easiest way he can protect his lead.

Originally Posted by Woolley

They seemed to largely follow the American system at Silverstone (although claiming it was something new) and surprisingly it worked fairly well. Funny that, who'd have thought it?

Well it was an American mechanism, so their default setting beforehand was that it was wrong, inferior, and stupid.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean in the first part of this paragraph.

As for safety no longer the main reason, I presume you are referring to the SC being used to spice up the racing in F1?

Yes, with today's technologies safety can be no longer maintained as the main reason for using the Safety Car. There are fairer, 'purer' and probably even safer alternatives.

[neil_davidson2]

Stationary yellow flags were removed from F1 because the drivers were just ignoring them.

The safety car is now used because drivers cannot be trusted to reduce speed for waved or double-waved yellows. But that still leaves the problem of the "strays" catching the pack or diving for the pits.

Is the next step to remove the safety car and have the FIA control the speed of the cars under a full course caution via the standard ECU?

As Woolley mentioned a few posts ago this situation only arises because the drivers cannot be trusted or cannot afford to reduce speed sufficiently during an incident to allow the marshals to operate with a reasonable degree of safety.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Yes, with today's technologies safety can be no longer maintained as the main reason for using the Safety Car. There are fairer, 'purer' and probably even safer alternatives.

Nothing to do with technology. The fairer, purer safer alternative is to drive carefully through the affected area showing full respect for the safety crews or fellow drivers who may be exposed to danger. Everything else is because they won't. So if anyone suffers from the restriction on racing which becomes necessary, in my opinion the correct reaction is 'tough'. And the correct reaction to anyone who continues to drive in a manner not condusive to the safety of the aforementioned persons is to ask them to watch the next race from the comfort of their own armchair.

[browney]

Enforcing a speed limiter through the ECU would seem to be a good solution that would be as effective at ensuring hte track is safe for clearing debris, however I think that one of the reasons this isn't used is because people like the idea of having the ability to bunch the back up as a 'side effect'.

It's like Bathurst in Australia's v8 Supercars, it's a race that lasts all day where you know they will always find a reson to have a safety car in the last hour which will bunch the pack up.

It may be the less fair way of maintaining safety but I can see why the FIA and television channels would think it is the best.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Yes, with today's technologies safety can be no longer maintained as the main reason for using the Safety Car. There are fairer, 'purer' and probably even safer alternatives.

I haven't seen or come across any alternatives, that keep the pack under control thus guaranteeing the safety of the track marshalls, as they clean up the debris.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I haven't seen or come across any alternatives, that keep the pack under control thus guaranteeing the safety of the track marshalls, as they clean up the debris.

They're gonna say a red flag.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Matt

They're gonna say a red flag.

Yes, there is that but I was hoping for something a little less extreme.

[Teretonga]

I would be against electronic ECU regulation of the speed but I am for dropping the safety car if the drivers can actually display a sense of responsibility.

If we have a safety car then it should be really simple. The safety car picks up the leader and everyone forms up behind it. While this is happening the pits are closed.
Then the pits are opened and people can make their pit stops and take up position behind the safety car until the period is over.

Or.
No safety car. Full course yellow,amber lights atb the start line, pits closed until the field is in line and then the pits are opened. The leader is responsible for setting the pace around the course and the incident area. He may be penalised if he's not responsible in his leadership.
Once the incident is cleaned up and the track is safe to race a green flag at the final marshals post indicates the lights will go out as they approach the start finish, but there is no passing until they have crossed the start finish line at the end of the final yellow period lap.

It would work if the leader would actually slow up around the incident area, and because its a full course yellow why not.....you can't race anyway.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by browney

however I think that one of the reasons this isn't used is because people like the idea of having the ability to bunch the back up as a 'side effect'.

Bunching the cars up is far from a side effect - it's the primary function.

When will people realise that the purpose of the safety car is to produce a safe, controlled time gap for marshals, recovery teams, whatever to do whatever is necessary to clear the track & get back to racing? By bunching the cars up the largest possible gap is created & people working trackside have some idea of the size of the gap; communication between the post with the incident, race control & the safety car observer allows everybody to do the job as safely & quickly as possible - for example, if it is necessary to temporarily block the track to recover a crashed car the safety car observer can be informed & if necessary slow the "train" down to ensure that the track is clear by the time the cars arrive at the incident. If the cars are spread out, no matter how slowly they are going there is no large, predictable gap & their speed, while probably much lower than racing speed, is not controllable to anything like the same degree as it is with a safety car.

Yes, some drivers do gain an "unfair" advantage under the safety car, maybe to the disadvantage of your personal "hero"; tough. . . who said life was fair?

[Woolley]

Note that at Silverstone the marshals were sent trackside to collect debris on Hangar Straight after the last car had passed, ensuring they had a completely clear track on which to work. Impossible without that gap. Again, this is unfortunately necessary since cars behind the SC accelerate, brake and weave (with the occasional resulting collisions and off-track excursions which ought to impossible under the SC) and people at full speed trying to catch up meaning you can't work on track at F1 without it. In club racing it's usually possible, but increasingly it's not at 'professional' level.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Bunching the cars up is far from a side effect - it's the primary function.

I agree with that.

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

When will people realise that the purpose of the safety car is to produce a safe, controlled time gap for marshals, recovery teams, whatever to do whatever is necessary to clear the track & get back to racing?

The stated purpose. As I said before, if the situation is that dangerous, it ought to be red-flagged.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by ensign14

As I said before, if the situation is that dangerous, it ought to be red-flagged.

So you'd red flag a race because of debris on the track? Some incidents can be dealt with safely on a live track, others can only be handled safely with a race stop. In between we have those which require a bigger gap than is available while the cars are spread out around the circuit & circulating at race speed; for those, the safety car is a useful tool.

[ensign14]

Depends on the debris. I remember not so long back there was a Ligier airbox just off the line at Brands but it was left there all race, cos the drivers knew where it was and could avoid it. Carbon fibre obviously makes it a bit trickier though...

[Adam43]

Dave's point remains. If there is too much debris in the wrong place then maybe red is best, but "some incidents can be dealt with safely on a live track".

From a pure race/sport point of view it is a shame that the hard won gaps get lost under the SC. I see that, but the reality is we have to bunch them up to allow the situation to be cleared. Not ideal, but the best compromise.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Woolley

...... this is unfortunately necessary since cars behind the SC accelerate, brake and weave (with the occasional resulting collisions and off-track excursions which ought to impossible under the SC) and people at full speed trying to catch up meaning you can't work on track at F1 without it. In club racing it's usually possible, but increasingly it's not at 'professional' level.

I agree with you.
Its strange that some of the problems we have under safety car conditions are because the 'professional' drivers are increasingly 'unprofessional...'.

[ensign14]

So, there you go. Thanks to the "safety" car in the Hungarian Grand Prix, we have one mechanic with suspected broken ribs, and nearly a holocaust as two cars collide. Because of one very visible bit of debris that could easily have been dealt with under a code 60 or even left.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ensign14

So, there you go. Thanks to the "safety" car in the Hungarian Grand Prix, we have one mechanic with suspected broken ribs, and nearly a holocaust as two cars collide. Because of one very visible bit of debris that could easily have been dealt with under a code 60 or even left.

I sort of agree but it's not the safety car per se but how it's deployed. They seem to be having a lot of trouble with it this season.

[dsg]

Safety car being deployed wasn't the problem. Having the pits open was.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by dsg

Safety car being deployed wasn't the problem. Having the pits open was.

That's part of the procedure for deploying the SC; the pit lane closes while the SC collects the cars and then it can open.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's part of the procedure for deploying the SC; the pit lane closes while the SC collects the cars and then it can open.

Keep it closed the whole time.