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9 Apr 2014, 18:33 (Ref:3390613) | #301 | ||
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Hybrid systems do improve fuel efficiency even if they have mass. That is shown here in F1, in WEC and in road cars. I thought we were past thinking they don't now.
I have no problem with F1 being irrelevant to road cars. However these changes, whether directly or indirectly bringing more relevance are also more interesting, produce cars that are harder to drive and, at least while everyone gets used to them, improve the racing. Unlike double points. |
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9 Apr 2014, 19:46 (Ref:3390628) | #302 | ||
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I think that driving to work using 30% less fuel is the idea ...
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10 Apr 2014, 11:38 (Ref:3390757) | #303 | ||
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'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari |
10 Apr 2014, 12:37 (Ref:3390775) | #304 | ||
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I disagree. The more technical genius aimed at hybrids the better. F1 is full of technical geniuses. The F1 hybrids already use techniques not used in road cars, (ERS) and hybrid road cars have been around for much longer...
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
10 Apr 2014, 20:07 (Ref:3390872) | #305 | ||
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For the sake of safety, relevance, cost-efficiency and fairness no other regulations than limits to the fuel-flow and fuel consumption would have been necessary. If hybrid power units are indeed (in the long run) superior to non-hybrid power units - as I think it is -, their introduction as well as severe restrictions are simply incomprehensible.
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'Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines.' - Enzo Ferrari |
10 Apr 2014, 21:20 (Ref:3390896) | #306 | ||
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The severe restrictions are a safety net for the manufacturers. Agreed it would be nicer to have less restriction so the tech can advance but how much further ahead would Mercedes be if instead of just refining for the last 2 years they were still adding more power..? |
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11 Apr 2014, 08:42 (Ref:3391002) | #307 | |||
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
11 Apr 2014, 20:20 (Ref:3391260) | #308 | ||
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Agreed, but I think just legislating the fuel consumption limit would have been a better way to go, and if somebody came up with some trick new concept to increase efficiency, we all benefit.
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12 Apr 2014, 00:35 (Ref:3391322) | #309 | |
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14 Apr 2014, 08:43 (Ref:3392256) | #310 | ||
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Good point, but perhaps too expensive to give completely free rein, and may end up with vastly different systems in the cars, and one particular system being head and shoulders above the rest...
Oh, hold on.... (I'm still an gas turbine + electric transmission fan) |
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
14 Apr 2014, 09:52 (Ref:3392283) | #311 | ||
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Incidentally, I agree with the turbine, not the hub mounted motors though. |
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14 Apr 2014, 12:58 (Ref:3392375) | #312 | |||
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What setup do you think would be dominant? |
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
15 Apr 2014, 06:30 (Ref:3392640) | #313 | ||
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I think you would need the drive shafts because of the unsprung weight, although the tracks are so smooth that it may be possible in F1. There is an interesting 4wd system in the 918 Porsche which you have I'm sure seen, a link at the bottom of the post. What would dominate? Talk about spoilt for choice, heaven knows what the correct solution would be. Given open regulations, no power limit and no minimum weight with maximum fuel flow limit. Low weight and maximum power would be your long term goals, and I think there may be a time period before new technology overtook the old. Eventually; time to put up; I think a small gas turbine that I could run at full speed driving a free power turbine. (Could possibly run multiple turbojets with demand switching to split the load requirements.) The output of the power turbine to run to a torque splitter between an electrical generator and a direct output to the wheels, much like the Toyota Prius’ system. The electrical system would be used essentially to absorb the excess power when not needed and to supplement the deficit in turbine output at full power and under acceleration, because we are trying to run a small turbine at high efficiency. After this, there would be endless opportunities to develop the systems and structures, heat exchangers (Chrysler – recuperators) to conserve the heat energy, allowing water injection would increase the power output of the turbojet, developing more efficient generators, better lighter electric motors, power transmission systems – hub motors, better drive and KERS systems management and better electrical and energy storage systems – capacitors, flywheels? There would be opportunities to further develop turbojet technologies with variable geometry compressors and turbine blades. Some interesting current hybrid technologies, for those interested: The Bladon gas turbine which was to be used in the Jaguar C-X7 project would be an ideal turbojet to run as the gas generator, the big trick here is the five stage compressor that makes the turbine both powerful and very efficient. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFnZJeHc-KY Porsche 918 hybrid drive flywheel system has split the electric drive to the front wheels of the car with the power transmitted via drive shafts giving the car four wheel drive up to 127 mph. Go to 7:25 mins http://www.nbc.com/jay-lenos-garage/video/2015-porsche-918-spyder/n46037#i McLaren P 1 still drives the electric motor through a transmission. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddU4tcGIF6k History - Chrysler turbine car. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car “The power turbine was connected, without a torque converter, through a gear reduction unit to an only moderately modified TorqueFliteautomatic transmission. The flow of the combustion gases between the gas generator and free power turbine provided the same functionality as a torque converter but without using a conventional liquid medium. Twin rotating recuperators transferred exhaust heat to the inlet air, greatly improving fuel economy. Varying stator blades prevented excessive top end speeds, and provided engine braking on deceleration.” How that look to you? Everyone else please feel free to pile on! Computer about to melt - again? |
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15 Apr 2014, 10:13 (Ref:3392727) | #314 | |||
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The true reason why Mercedes-Benz are well ahead of their rivals, is yet to be unraveled. It is known that Renault are still having troubles with their hybrid systems, but so far the packaging of the internal combustion engine seems the main advantage Mercedes-Benz have over the other engine manufacturers. No much is said about the hybrid systems. |
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15 Apr 2014, 18:34 (Ref:3392931) | #315 | |||
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(Not saying there are not other things at work, but that seems a really big gain to me) |
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
15 Apr 2014, 18:36 (Ref:3392932) | #316 | |||
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I disagree about a direct connection from turbine to wheels. You need a massive reduction in RPM, plus a gearbox, and I think that would be too wasteful of energy. |
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
15 Apr 2014, 19:40 (Ref:3392970) | #317 | |||
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And the fans complain that the boats are too quiet, and the older, slower, less reliable piston boats are better. |
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16 Apr 2014, 04:28 (Ref:3393126) | #318 | ||
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It is better to take a drive off a power turbine installed in the turbojet exhaust, this has no connection to the turbojet's turbine and compressor shaft, the turbojet is merely a gas generator for the power turbine, this is much more efficient as the turbojet's performance is not compromised by trying to turn the load under reduced power. Both methods would have a mechanical drive shaft connected to the propeller! |
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16 Apr 2014, 05:24 (Ref:3393129) | #319 | |||
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It could be the pinnacle of technology in addition to the pinnacle of driving. |
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16 Apr 2014, 10:03 (Ref:3393227) | #320 | |
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Miatanut, you would have a turbojet that is used as a gas generator.
In its exhaust you have the power turbine that is driven by the hot gas exiting the turbojet, their shafts are completely separate, that is they can turn at different speeds, for instance you can run the turbojet with the power turbine locked and no drive going to the prop or water jet pump on the boat, this is the way it works in helicopters too. When the whole aircraft or boat is switched off you can turn the propeller and power turbine without turning the turbine they are in no way connected. All modern turboprop engines work this way, again the propeller is connected to the power turbine but not the turbojet mainshaft that drives a compressor off its turbine. The power turbine is only driven by the passage of hot gasses through its own blades! |
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16 Apr 2014, 21:35 (Ref:3393548) | #321 | |||
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17 Apr 2014, 07:48 (Ref:3393728) | #322 | |
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Mercedes have said they would have quit F1 if the new power units had not come.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/26943423 Renault have allready said the same so how many engine manufacturers would have now with no change. Ferrari and Cosworth? Now that seems to jog the memory........ |
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17 Apr 2014, 08:37 (Ref:3393742) | #323 | ||
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Interesting. I can see where they are coming from. There is a limit to how far you can take a typical F1 IC engine - at that limit was pretty much reached. The new rules give the designers something to really go to town on. Maybe not as much as completely free engine design (see posts above!), but there is a lot for the engineers to get their teeth into. So the engine manufactures can see this as a chance to really get ahead of their rivals which would not have been possible with tiny incremental changes to the IC engine of before.
The engines are still massively powerful, the cars are still ludicrously quick, and the racing is more exciting (at least so far). They use much less fuel, but are a bit quiet. 4 pluses, one irrelevant minus. |
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Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn. Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain. |
17 Apr 2014, 12:56 (Ref:3393853) | #324 | |
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Turbine?Been done http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/271/lotus-56b .Maybe should be tried again with an electric motor something like the concept Jaguar C-X75 hinted at.Of course such a powertrain would be much quieter than the present units and it might be easier to get permission to hold city centre GP's.
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17 Apr 2014, 13:04 (Ref:3393857) | #325 | |||
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