Merger talks again? - Page 13

paul-collins · 25 May 2006, 13:01 (Ref:1618637)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

It is an issue, mountainstar, because Haas is the ONLY source for all of your Lola's needs. Karl, like the rest of them, has primarily his own interests at heart.

If there is an equipment change in any merger that may or may not happen, the revenue stream Haas currently experiences will diminish considerably - even if a Lola chassis remains an option.

...which we know it won't, next year, anyway - barring a falling through of the DP01 build (which is very much proceeding as of Tuesday, anyway). I don't see the Lolas grandfathered into a merged series, either...

If ever there were a "follow the money" moment, this would be it. Where will Lola sell cars in North America next year?

mountainstar · 26 May 2006, 02:58 (Ref:1619158)

Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQm...earch=Champcar

This is the 1994 announcement of the formation of the irl and the split. The scary thing is you could plug kk into craig's seat and tony with all his ums and ahhs and it all sounds the same today. Nothing has changed 12 years on. Watch it(3 minutes) and decide for yourself.

racinthestreets · 27 May 2006, 00:06 (Ref:1619884)

Newman Hass is a class act. No question in any quarter. Paul obviously has a propblem with what TG did. Think, TG is ovals and American, Paul is road racing and world renowned. Paul's agenda is not the pursuit of promoting "young American drivers" - which I need to point out is no longer TG's either. Paul and Carl just want the best driver, engineer, pit crew, transport driver whatever regardless of color or nationality. Paul has earned the right to speak - hearing is subjective to each listener. KK is, IMO much more adapt at negotiations than TG. KK, GF Ford and Honda will determine the outcome of any merger. Note no TG involved, why, because he is standing on the edge of the cliff and Honda is behind him with a hand in the back. If they push, 2008 is a sincere problem for TG and the IRL. Personally I belive that TG is negotiating from below the podium and that is not what he is used to. Only my opinon I have no "sources" nor will I claim to have any.

Fogelhund · 27 May 2006, 02:35 (Ref:1619926)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racinthestreets

Note no TG involved, why, because he is standing on the edge of the cliff and Honda is behind him with a hand in the back.

I don't really believe engines will ever be a problem for either series. If Honda doesn't supply, and no other manufacturer was interested.... well surely Judd, or Elan, or AER, or Ilmor, or..... would be willing to sell the IRL engines, probably at a price no more expensive than the reported $800k per year lease rate Honda is charging now.

The Honda/Toyota damage has already occurred, we'll just see how the chips fall now. The damage is simply raising the budgets to the point that the field is dominated by four teams, who are there because of manufacturer money. That money is gone, and the question that remains is will they be shortly as well. Note, the manufacturer funds pushed out some of the smaller teams, that were viable to that point.

Honda already has 1 1/2 feet out the door, and there are many well placed, yet unconfirmed reports that there will be no merger for 2007, but talks continue for 2008.

I have a feeling they are going to fail.

It is my personal opinion, that Champcars will loose NH within a year, as well as one other team seemingly leaving at the end of this year. Champcars is in a good position, in that they can draft up some Atlantics teams. The problem is that such a move has a downward push on the "known element" and doesn't look favourable. It only makes the raising of sponsorship more difficult. While I appreciate that KK has had a net worth approaching a Billion, at some point there will be a point where enough is enough. He is a bright and talented guy, and perhaps he'll make this series work. Given what I've seen though, I'll call 2008 the last year.

On the other hand, I actually see the IRL surviving. Perhaps an odd opinion from a Road Racing fan. I appreciate that even if both series failed, there is always going to be an Indy 500. I basically feel that the pro teams are going to exit, leaving a vacuum that will lead the IRL back to its roots, with lesser known drivers and teams. It will be a shadow of its former self, and likely not of much interest to few but the hardcore, and of course those living off the former glory of the I500. It will however be a platform that could exist economically. Not much of a victory in my opinion.

If this merger fails, and I believe it will, KK and the boys have about 12 months left to pull a rabbit of a hat.

At least that is my read of what is going on, and you can feel free to disagree, which I'm sure many will.

coyote9999 · 27 May 2006, 04:48 (Ref:1619951)

I disagree. lol. That didn't take long. You will never see Newman leaving Champ Car.

Fish_Flake · 27 May 2006, 05:21 (Ref:1619954)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erHQm...earch=Champcar

This is the 1994 announcement of the formation of the irl and the split. The scary thing is you could plug kk into craig's seat and tony with all his ums and ahhs and it all sounds the same today. Nothing has changed 12 years on. Watch it(3 minutes) and decide for yourself.

That video only reinforces my feeling about the subject. Tony George was talking about expanding with a "grassroots" program IndyCar can be proud of. Basically, it was his way of saying that IndyCar was becoming too focused on European road racers and not enough on homegrown talent. That's why he formed the IRL: to give drivers and teams in the sprint and midget ranks a chance to compete at open wheel's highest level. While I find that vision somewhat admirable, he was chasing a pipe dream. The IRL, at the beginning, was aspiring to recreate a bygone era that never really existed, at least not anytime in the last fifty years. The truth is, the difference between today's sprint car and today's IndyCar is vastly greater than the difference between a 50s sprint car and a 50s Indy roadster. The disciplines today are night and day. That's not to say that a young sprint car driver can't succeed in today's series, but unless he's a natural talent (like, oh, Tony Stewart), he can't make the jump from Eldora to Indy and expect to be on the pace immediately. He will need a year or two in the lower single-seater formulas. That's what Al Unser Jr. did, for one.

I look at the field as in 1994, and I don't see where the problem was in that year's field. What I see from the fields in that era is a series that attracted the top drivers in the world from every possible racing background. Besides Little Al, you had Emmo, the long-departed Formula 1 champion who came to IndyCars in his forties to prove he still had it; Paul Tracy, who grew up in go-karts; Robby Gordon, the heir to Rick Mears and the Unsers as the latest talent to come from the off-road ranks; Jacques Villeneuve, who won in junior championships on three continents; Raul Boesel, who came out of the rough-and-tumble Brazilian saloon car scene; Nigel Mansell, World Champion in F1 turned IndyCar champ with a vengeance; Mario Andretti, the grizzled veteran of about every style of racing on Earth out for one last time around; Arie Luyendyk, a Dutchman who struggled through the European system but found stardom in the States. Yes, you're missing an American sprint car driver in there, but other than that, you have as diverse of a field of drivers as you'll ever find.

The IRL was a joke few years. The top teams, the top drivers, and the top teams all aligned with CART, probably because none of them figured that IndyCar would stick around for more than a few years. The turning point came in 2000, when Montoya went to Indy and ran away with it. It proved that CART was still superior, but it made everyone's sponsors ask why they weren't running at Indy as well. So Penske went the next year and ran away with it, but Marlboro wasn't happy because as long as Penske was in CART, their logo couldn't appear at Indy. So, under pressure from their sponsor and George's desire for such a coup, Penske switched sides. And since then, George has been compromising his original vision for the IRL so much that it should be embarrassing.

The last five years have been nothing but the IRL trying to out-CART Champ Car, and the sad part is that it's working and that George still insists that the series is satisfying the mission is was set to accomplish a decade ago. But where are the sprint car drivers? Where are the mom-and-pop teams? Where is the idea that the average Joe can win the Indy 500? I don't see it, and quite frankly, I never saw it. The IRL that Tony George founded to combat American open-wheel racing from becoming the Formula 1.5 that it never was has become what it never wanted to be. By continuing to undercut Champ Car to the brink of extinction, it is proving absolutely nothing, other than that George is truly out of touch with the rest of the racing world.

mountainstar · 27 May 2006, 06:05 (Ref:1619960)

Well written fishflake.

There was nothing wrong with the 1994 field at all. A WIDE diversity of tracks including many ovals, good drivers from many backgrounds, 3 different engine manufacturers, good teams. Indycar was profitable, with the best tv deal(BTW there is an excellent article on this you can find in the 1994 ontrack magazines), good ratings, excellent attendance, etc. There were few international races 1 in surfers and 2 just over the border in canada, hardly foreign territory.

I have a feeling that tony george will continue to um and ah his way around and there will be no merger. It looks like it will be total war to the end.

I disagree fogelhund that champcar will expire soon. Considering the shape in which champcar was acquired by the amigos I think they have made some good changes in many areas. There is still much work to be done, but they are on the right track.

I would hope people don't throw in the towel because champcar is one of the last remaining barricades against NASCAR/ISC monopolizing all professional motorsports in the USA. Look at the stink the cab crowd is putting up over the proposed street race in Phoenix.

Fish_Flake · 27 May 2006, 06:58 (Ref:1619970)

The sad part of this whole ordeal, and the frustrating part of it from a fan's perspective, is that unification is a painfully easy process if the parties involved aren't taking the "all or nothing" approach that they are now. I mean, all that has to happen is for both sides agree on something on the technical side, and a merger will sort itself out within a few years. Engines, chassis, tires, gearboxes, ECUs, whatever...you come to the middle on one, and the rest of the car will soon follow. Once the car is the same, you'll see the big teams crossing over to the marquee races on the other side; Newman-Haas and Forsythe at Indy, Penske and Ganassi at Long Beach, and so on. When that happens, the top teams will want to compete with their top rivals, regardless of division, and we'll see which venues work and which ones don't. By the time the contracts with sponsors and promoters are up for renewal, a merger will be a mere formality. It's not that hard, people! Come together on one detail, and work from there!

luke · 27 May 2006, 11:15 (Ref:1620097)

Nice post Fish_Flake, you've covered everything that needed to be said.

Another thing to add about his vision is, he never meant to harm CART, wanted to bring back grass roots racing talent. He destoryed CART Indy Car which was the best series on the planet in terms of racing etc.
Has TG stuck with his mission? No way, that's probably why there is only around two original teams in there still as most have been driven out by the big CART teams that went where the money was tottaly taking out the point of his IRL. And then now there's only 11 ovals, and road street racing to finally compete 100% with Champ Car's market. Around 3/4s of the schedule are ex CART events, etc.....

About momentum, I think Champ Car has lost quite alot which they gained last year, I fear Milwaukee this year will be another blow for the series.
But then again, the IRL has lost quite some ground as well this year, showing how bad the state of open wheel racing in north america is at this point in time. We have to have a merge imo.

Fogelhund · 27 May 2006, 13:32 (Ref:1620209)

Quote:

Originally Posted by coyote9999

I disagree. lol. That didn't take long. You will never see Newman leaving Champ Car.

Well, three points.

1. Newman himself said they only have one more year left in Champcar without a merger.

2. The guy is 81.

3. Haas is the North American Lola distributor and Champcars isn't where he'll be distributing any longer.

Fogelhund · 27 May 2006, 13:39 (Ref:1620217)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Considering the shape in which champcar was acquired by the amigos I think they have made some good changes in many areas. There is still much work to be done, but they are on the right track.

In some areas, they have made some good changes. I just have a hard time seeing how the business side is in that much better shape. If Newman/Haas can't find sponsorship, with some of the best in the business working on it, then who else is having that issue? I just don't see enough sponsorship on the cars to fund this. Unfortunately, it's pay drivers and subsidies still. There is no increase in TV ratings. I'm sorry, as a business, I just don't see how things are better.

luke · 27 May 2006, 20:59 (Ref:1620249)

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/N...e.asp?ID=10294

Quote:

With all the rumor, speculation and semi-informed talk floating around about a possible merger of Champ Car and the Indy Racing League, and with the 91st running of the Indianapolis 500 scheduled for 1 pm on

Sunday, we thought it might be fun and/or instructive to set the way-back machine to the last time a "unified" series competed at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

That would be May of 1995.

It was, to say the least, a very strange month of May. Where to begin? How about with the fact that storm clouds were gathering around the sport. The previous year, Indianapolis Motor Speedway president Tony George announced his intention to start a new "oval-based" open wheel series that, by the time the Champ Car World Series regulars began practicing for the '95 Indy 500, had taken shape as the Indy Racing League and was expected to commence competition the following season.

indycool · 27 May 2006, 21:34 (Ref:1620304)

Fogel, I agree with your last two posts and I agree that there are many here who will not.

But when you look at the field from 1996 at Indy, you can't help but think it was much harder to put a field together then than it is now for the Indianapolis 500. The IRL had only five races in that calendar year to get going. One was Indy.

Similarly, it's a lot more difficult for CC to get venues now than it was back then. With Pook's "vision" expanded by KK, these deals are harder to make and harder to execute with street races than permanent circuits. And that seems to be the ONLY direction CC has to go. And street races are harder to make money on because of annual costs, and therefore, they're harder to squeeze a buck out of for sanctioning fees.

indycool · 5 Jun 2006, 15:38 (Ref:1627670)

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...TS01/606050346

luke · 5 Jun 2006, 15:52 (Ref:1627680)

No real updates, but we can only hope for 2008. *crosses fingers

luke · 6 Jun 2006, 20:23 (Ref:1628773)

Quote:

Kevin Kalkhoven has confirmed that the potential merger between the Champ Car World Series and the Indy Racing League is still on course, but that he is not putting a deadline on it.

from Autosport.

Fish_Flake · 6 Jun 2006, 21:08 (Ref:1628810)

The longer this thing draws itself out, the more I wonder if Honda is the key to all the cards falling in place.

mac · 7 Jun 2006, 00:00 (Ref:1628905)

Look, Kevin and Tony, I'll help you out here:

Get Bill Clinton to head up the show - Tony and Kevin can be joint 2IC.

Panoz chassis, turbo engines, Bridgestone tyres, no traction control.

7 ovals
Indianapolis
Fontana
Michigan
Milwaukee
Motegi
Chicagoland
Kentucky

6 street circuits
Long Beach
Toronto
St Petersburg
Surfers Paradise
Cleveland
Edmonton

5 road courses
Road America
Watkins Glen
Infineon Raceway
Laguna Seca
Mexico City

Make this your schedule for year one and develop it from there!

norman-normal · 7 Jun 2006, 00:47 (Ref:1628920)

Every thing depends on Honda, the cost of F-1 plus IRL must be staggering. It may make the purchase of Cosworth look like an inspired move.

The last one standing will, in effect, become a merged series and there will be no argument about who is running the show.

We will be able to close this thread by 2008.

mac · 7 Jun 2006, 01:47 (Ref:1628931)

Quote:

Originally Posted by norman-normal

The last one standing will, in effect, become a merged series and there will be no argument about who is running the show.

That's not the opinion of Kalkhoven and George. Why bother with all of this if it is only going to be a matter of natural elimination anyway?

Anyway, I would have thought the history of CART and the IRL would teach a very strong lesson about the dangers of giving manufacturers too much say.

MickAU · 7 Jun 2006, 02:45 (Ref:1628941)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

Panoz chassis, turbo engines, Bridgestone tyres, no traction control.

Please no! Give us the Lola any day - they look like a racecar!

If Honda are making noises about exiting Indycar - let them go. This makes a merger so much easier with KK et al owning Cosworth.

Nevertheless, there is another scenario - involving Honda - of course:

-Cosworth have produced a reasonably tidy V8 Formula One engine - which could do with some capital investment
- It looks as though Williams F1 will sign to go with Toyota next year, leaving Cosworth with a heap of F1 V8 'boat anchors'
- Honda isn't performing all that spectacularly in F1
- Honda essentially have two teams in F1 (as well as owning a composite facility in England - 'officially' owned by Super Aguri)

Could a sell off of Cosworth by KK to Honda be a viable option?

Cosworth, badged as Honda, could then be the control engine supplier to the Indycar/CCWS Series....

Quite logical when you think about it!

mac · 7 Jun 2006, 03:28 (Ref:1628948)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MickAU

Please no! Give us the Lola any day - they look like a racecar!

I was referring to the new Champ Car design.

mountainstar · 7 Jun 2006, 03:33 (Ref:1628950)

Right now it seems the merger bits are being discussed in a hypothetical sense, so I don't believe anything of interest will come about anytime soon.

Fish_Flake · 7 Jun 2006, 04:40 (Ref:1628960)

If your idea is for Honda to buy Cosworth and supply the IndyCar series with old Formula 1 engines, then I think that is a terrible idea.

Tim Northcutt · 7 Jun 2006, 13:40 (Ref:1629247)

F-1 and IRL can't be too staggering for Honda, because they also have announced that they will field four factory-backed LMP2 cars in the ALMS next year that will be allocated to 2-3 teams.

Doesn't sound like a company that is too worried about how much they are spending in motorsports to me.

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