Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Articus]

I found a zoutube video of the R18 that McNish crashed yesterday...Hardly any damage except the skewed rear wing...

RadioLM gave me the impression that the entire rear wing was gone...Looks like a minor off and nudged the rear of the car in the barriers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2-s6...feature=relmfu

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Or another case of Audi being able to run more downforce because the technical regulations give a diesel engine a power advantage
The ideal lap time is a good indication of the extra speed that the two cars have in hand:

• R18 e-tron quattro: 3:25.776
• R18 ultra: 3:26.356
• TS030: 3:26.339

If Toyota can get a extra lap in they should be coming pretty close I think.
To bad it's hard to calculate how much time the audi is going to lose by doing one or two laps less vs the time they get back with running faster vs total toyota pitstop time. But anyone that knows that would get rich really fast I guess...

[Articus]

Originally Posted by NelisB

If Toyota can get a extra lap in they should be coming pretty close I think.
To bad it's hard to calculate how much time the audi is going to lose by doing one or two laps less vs the time they get back with running faster vs total toyota pitstop time. But anyone that knows that would get rich really fast I guess...

Not to mention who will double, triple, and quadruple stint the tires.

[gwyllion]

At the moment it does not look that Toyota will be able to do another lap. In fact the situation might be reverse.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

At the moment it does not look that Toyota will be able to do another lap. In fact the situation might be reverse.

The only indication i get is that they have not shown there cards and in terms of fuel mileage. I note a couple of things in Toyota's favor.

1) Direct Injection.
2) Low downforce package.
3) Hybrid.
4) More fuel than the Audi's.

From that its hard to believe they can only do 10 laps..Im thinking they'll be able to run 13 - 14 laps yet..

[chernaudi]

But does the Toyota engine have DFI? We have to remember that their slower car in the test only ran one 12 lap stint, and the average for Toyota was 10-11 laps.

Audi easily ran 11 lap stints and a few 12 lappers--and that's with a 5 liter smaller tank than 2011. I think that Toyota may very well break even with Audi if Audi pushes it, but they don't seen to have the hoped for fuel mileage advantage. This means that Toyota is running LD aero and cranking up the wick to get the power and the top speeds that they're getting, especially if Audi have some power in reserve.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But does the Toyota engine have DFI? We have to remember that their slower car in the test only ran one 12 lap stint, and the average for Toyota was 10-11 laps.

The 12 lap stint that Toyota did, was during a simulated safety car period. So that does not really count.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But does the Toyota engine have DFI? We have to remember that their slower car in the test only ran one 12 lap stint, and the average for Toyota was 10-11 laps.

Audi easily ran 11 lap stints and a few 12 lappers--and that's with a 5 liter smaller tank than 2011. I think that Toyota may very well break even with Audi if Audi pushes it, but they don't seen to have the hoped for fuel mileage advantage. This means that Toyota is running LD aero and cranking up the wick to get the power and the top speeds that they're getting, especially if Audi have some power in reserve.

Are you sure thats how ld works? Because last year the Peugeots had the same antics and got better fuel mileage than the Audis. Its not the top speed that burns fuel. Its the downforce.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Articus

Are you sure thats how ld works? Because last year the Peugeots had the same antics and got better fuel mileage than the Audis. Its not the top speed that burns fuel. Its the downforce.

Indeed. More downforce means more drag ... means more power needed to push the car through the air ... means higher fuel consumption. That could explain Audi's 11 lap stint strategy last year.

[Articus]

And since we have seen the Toyota running so trimmed out if they were to add downforce and suddenly only be able to do 8 or 9 laps we know something is probably ludicrously wrong...That leads me to believe they just didn't show they're cards. The figures dont add up for Toyota to only be able to do 10 lap stints.

[gwyllion]

Stop spreading disinformation by talking about 10 lap stints. Toyota did two 11 lap stints during the test day and one 12 lap stint (partially behind the safety car).

See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...49#post3084749

[TF110]

He said IF they ran more wing then it might cut their stint to 10 laps.

[Adam43]

I can see this turning into one of those really interesting discussions...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I can see this turning into one of those really interesting discussions...

Adam, quite some foresight you got there

Gwyillion + TF110 + Toyotas performance = dead discussion (meant in the best way)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The layout has changed quite a bit from last year.

2011:


2012:

The best picture of the front suspension thus far:

I expected that there would be two front electric motors, but I see only one (on the right).

Remember that Antonio Pannullo pointed out the main changes in http://lemansprototypes.over-blog.it...104562959.html

[gwyllion]

In the Toyota topic I already calculated some metrics (average of highest top speed, average of fastest sector 2 times, and average of fastest lap times) from the time data of the test day.

I also calculated the average lap time of the long runs (10 or more laps), like Paul Truswell did in 2011.

Morning:

No.	Car	Driver	Stint	Average lap time
1	Audi R18 e-tron quattro	Tréluyer	11	3:32.820
1	Audi R18 e-tron quattro	Tréluyer	12	3:33.019
2	Audi R18 e-tron quattro	Kristensen	12	3:35.551
3	Audi R18 ultra	Dumas	10	3:36.456
3	Audi R18 ultra	Gené	12	3:35.616
3	Audi R18 ultra	Duval	12	3:35.215
4	Audi R18 ultra	Bonanomi	12	3:36.756
4	Audi R18 ultra	Jarvis	12	3:34.747
7	Toyota TS030	Nakajima	11	3:39.343
7	Toyota TS030	Lapierre	10	3:33.688

Afternoon:

No.	Car	Driver	Stint	Average lap time
1	Audi R18 e-tron quattro	Lotterer	11	3:31.489
8	Toyota TS030	Davidson	11	3:36.783

Contrarily to Paul's analysis, I exclude both the in and out lap. So the average is only calculated over the laps on the track.

[MulsanneMike]

Audi is operating with a 7% power reduction compared to last year, correct? Last year at Le Mans they ran a 47.4 mm restrictor and now they're using a 45.8 mm? The only BoP adjustment ahead of LM last year that I see that effected Audi was a fuel flow change, correct?

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Audi is operating with a 7% power reduction compared to last year, correct? Last year at Le Mans they ran a 47.4 mm restrictor and now they're using a 45.8 mm? The only BoP adjustment ahead of LM last year that I see that effected Audi was a fuel flow change, correct?

Actually about ~6.64% reduction based on area difference. Audi's PR material from LM 2011 claims a 47.5 mm...hmmm. Only .1 difference but still...47.5 vs 45.8 = 7.03% diff.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by NelisB

I've never seen a double entry turbo like that one. Anyone know if they're out there or is this a audi (borg warner) invention?
Also pretty interesting to see the 120 degree V angle on that v6. It's not something new but it's also not something you see very often...

P.U.R.E. has released a computer drawing of its 2014 F1 engine:

source: http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-new...e?artid=144284

Guess what. The turbine of the turbocharger also has a double entry, just like the Audi R18 VTG turbo

On this drawing it is unclear whether the compressor also has two exists to feed intercoolers at either side of the engine, or whether there is only one intercooler on the left side of the engine.

Note that the F1 rules mandate a 90° V6 configuration and that the exhausts must be at the outside of the engine. So the configuration that Audi is using (120° and exhaust inside V) is not allowed.

Finally, P.U.R.E. seems to be using traditional indirect fuel injection (i.e., injectors in the manifold) while the F1 do allow direct fuel injection (i.e., injectors in combustion chamber).

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by manthey

sorry,maybe I lost some parts of this topic...AMS magazine undisclosed prior r18tdi technology with a deep review

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/m...a-5034325.html

Thanks for the link.

The article says that according to simulations from Lola a hybrid system is worth up to 3 seconds per lap at Le Mans. The average lap times that I calculated earlier, confirm this number. In the morning the fastest stint of the e-tron quattro (Tréluyer) was around 2 seconds faster on average than the fastest stint of the ultra (Jarvis).

The article also explains how Audi reduced the weight of the R18 during the winter. The 2011 R18 weighed 850 kg and the 2012 R18 ultra only 750 kg! 30 kg was saved with the carbon gearbox casing, 15 kg on the engine, turbo and cooling, and 40 kg on the chassis, bodywork and suspension. The hybrid system weighs less than 100 kg.

So in the e-tron quattro they still have around 50 kg of ballast, whereas in the ultra they can position 140 kg of ballast!

[Articus]

Presumably the hybrid cars are exponentially better in traffic than the non-hybrids. That extra boost of power after having to lift makes up for alot of time lost in arnage/mulsanne chicanes.

[gustavobamba]

Hybrid system reduce 3sec per Lap in Le mans???? Uau!!!

Last year pole was 3:25.799, so with that 3 seconds This year pole will be around 3:22 s for Audi and Toyota 3:24s

[joeb]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Thanks for the link.

The article also explains how Audi reduced the weight of the R18 during the winter. The 2011 R18 weighed 850 kg and the 2012 R18 ultra only 750 kg! 30 kg was saved with the carbon gearbox casing, 15 kg on the engine, turbo and cooling, and 40 kg on the chassis, bodywork and suspension. The hybrid system weighs less than 100 kg.

So in the e-tron quattro they still have around 50 kg of ballast, whereas in the ultra they can position 140 kg of ballast!

Wow, the base weight of the Ultra is 750kg, quite impressive. How much faster would it be around LeMans if there was a 750 kg minimum weight I wonder?

[Articus]

^Significantly. under 3:20 for sure. cars.

[manthey]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Thanks for the link.

The article says that according to simulations from Lola a hybrid system is worth up to 3 seconds per lap at Le Mans. The average lap times that I calculated earlier, confirm this number. In the morning the fastest stint of the e-tron quattro (Tréluyer) was around 2 seconds faster on average than the fastest stint of the ultra (Jarvis).

The article also explains how Audi reduced the weight of the R18 during the winter. The 2011 R18 weighed 850 kg and the 2012 R18 ultra only 750 kg! 30 kg was saved with the carbon gearbox casing, 15 kg on the engine, turbo and cooling, and 40 kg on the chassis, bodywork and suspension. The hybrid system weighs less than 100 kg.

So in the e-tron quattro they still have around 50 kg of ballast, whereas in the ultra they can position 140 kg of ballast!

I wasn't sure were "new things" for you....
could be very interesting see old monster v12tdi or v10 tdi with this weight reduction versus f1