Ralf did better than Montoya today

[NiceGuyEddie]

Ralf´s Girl, if you think performance and driverquality is measured in championshipstandings, there is no arguing with you.

I´m with Lee. JPM put in a hell of a drive to recover from his spin. I will agree that Ralf drove well, without any mistakes, but the upperhand? No.

[f1manoz]

Ralf drove fine but it wasn't outstanding. I would liked to have seem him challenge his brother a bit more rather than just taking 8 points. He said he had the car to win, well why didn't he go for it then?

[Mark Webber]

Originally posted by Damon
Your description of the race however ends at around lap 20 Mania. You miss out the 50 laps that just Ralf sat on his brothers tale while Montoya made up the deficit that, yes he all by himself, threw away.

no big feet its easy to drive in clean air . But never the less BOTH Will's driver drove solid (bar jpm's spin) WHY do we argue over the same bloody topic time and time again
The Fact is MS had a faster car on the day NOTHING yes NOTHING Ralf or jpm could have done would have changed that
this result stand alone SO Leave it !!!!!!!!!!

thankyou MS,Ralf ,jpm & Alonso for a good close race

THE END

[Damon]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
WHY do we argue over the same bloody topic time and time again

Because there's nothing else to argue about . There's no counter argument in the DC/RB bashing so that'd be a waste of time.

[Mark Webber]

I was wondering how long it would take you to reply

[golem]

I tend to think ralf did the same as Pablo. When he had the lowest fuel, he didn't put down some absolute blinders to try and pull away from Michael, who would more than likely stay out longer.
In their two differant ways, by pushing too hard and not pushing hard enough, they lost positions to the same guy who knows when to push hard and how to do it.

Ralf's girl, those numbers are fair enough. But I can't help but think of Austria. He was looking at 10 points until his car blew up by no fault of his own.

Pablo may bin it more, but it seems taking that risk makes him faster. And that's what Williams needs to beat Michael. Someone FAST. Mind, I think Ralf's doing a better job than DC as he's proving reliable but relatively quick too.

The driver pairing seems more and more to be a good one, kinda like a hedged bet.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Ralf's Girl
Qualifying:
Ralf 5 (on pole in the last two races)
JPM 3

Championship points:
Ralf 33
JPM 31

Qualifying this season doesn't matter in the true sense of the word. Plus JPM would have won had it not been for his silly error. The fact that JPM won last time out makes it a curious statement to say that Rafe has the upper hand though, Looking forward to the second half of the season.

[Champ69]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Ralf´s Girl, if you think performance and driverquality is measured in championshipstandings, there is no arguing with you.

I´m with Lee. JPM put in a hell of a drive to recover from his spin. I will agree that Ralf drove well, without any mistakes, but the upperhand? No.

I disagree, TCF only lost a couple of places when he spun and had an easy time getting up to P3, he was gaining track position due to Ralf takin a more defensive line than he would have if he did not have his bro in close proximity. Ralf was then stuck behind his brother after the pitstops and it was plaing to see if he was not stcu behind michael that he could have gone a lot quicker.

A good race by all anyway, its just a pitty that the cars are so hard to pass or the result may have been differant.

[z2252314]

The same people here bashing Ralf are the same people claiming JPM was the next Senna. This begs the question:-
Would Ayrton still be struggling after 3 years to beat a driver like Ralf Schumacher??

These JPM fanboys are hard to understand. They relentlessly attempt to convince everyone that Ralf is the worst driver in the paddock while at the same time believing that JPM is the second coming. If Ralf is the worst driver on the grid, then what does that make JPM?? ( a driver who consistently fails to beat his team mate).

[nicker less]

Originally posted by J.McClane
Ralf was pants today, another pointless and plain drive from him. Monty showed what a REAL driver is like.

Finally someone with sence! Ralf was pants. JPM spun but made up ALL the time he lost while Ralf was plain and slow, and still can't overtake!

[TeddyG]

Well well well...interesting report from www.itv-f1.com it appears that even Frank and Patrick Head think JPM would have had more of a go than old "cruise and collect" Ralfie;

Williams said: "I've got to be careful what I say, but quite probably Juan would have had a bigger go."

Technical director Patrick Head added his thoughts. He believed Montoya would have got frustrated sitting behind Michael for such a time.

"I think one has to suspect that Juan might have got very bored if he was sitting on the tail of another car for 40 laps"

A little insulting towards Ralfie there guys! Can't do much for his confidence I bet...but as I said these guys know that Ralf just isn't a fighter.
I'm guessing Frank was also thinking "Villeneuve would have made a go of it I bet...hmmmm"

[BootsOntheSide]

I think this race backed up what we already knew about Ralf and JPM:

1 On overall pace they are fairly even

2 Montoya is much more aggressive at getting the msot out of the car and overtaking people, and makign up for his own mistakes. He made up a second a lap in teh final stint, no one, but NO ONE else could do that.

3 The most important thing, though, is that Williams had the better package, started from the front of the grid with equal fuel to Michael, and a combination of a Montoya mistake and Ralf's lack of guts (and, in the crucial laps after pitstops, a lack of speed), they didn't win. That's embarassing.

3 Ralf

[neilap]

Here is some fuel for the fire. I thought RS drove a fine race (for RS). He was never close enough to pass. I feel its because he never pressed the issue. However what else was expected? Here is what some of the williams team thinks

http://www.planet-f1.com/Home/story_12068.shtml

[Mania]

Man desperation leads the Pablo fanatics to do all kinds of things..but I never thought they'd stoop as low as taking a quote from the likes of ITV.

Keep twisting the facts boys...2 poles in a row...more championship points...and having scored points in all races so far..Ralf is clearly outshining Pablo once again.

[golem]

Like I said before Mania. Austria.
And Boots, one other guy did in fact put in a similar performance in his last 2 stints. The guy behind. Alonso. He really pushed hard there at the end, making 100% sure if someone screwed up, he was gonna get a podium.

[krt917]

Yes, good point. And I disagree with Mark Webber (on this thread, not the man himself!) about MS having a quicker car - the Bridgestones saw to that. He just made the most of what he had - like Alonso. And unlike Montoya and Ralf (who both, nevertheless, had decent runs).

[R]

Originally posted by Mania
Man desperation leads the Pablo fanatics to do all kinds of things..

Don't throw us all in one hat, Mania. I gave Ralf some credit here over Montoya, by actually starting this thread. I didn't intend it to be a bashing thread, neither one way nor the other.

The "2 poles" argument is a rather empty one, considering the rule changes for this year. Setting pole in itself is not very important, unless you have the race strategy to go with it. In Monaco, Ralf didn't have that. In Canada, he did, to a larger extent, but not quite (he didn't win). Or to put it another way, being 3rd on the grid (combined with being a little heavier), as Montoya was in Monaco and Michael was in Canada, proved to be better strategies both times, as those drivers ultimately won the races from those positions.

Since the Ralf fans focus so much on championship points, I would also like to point out that Ralf's two poles have given him 13 points from those races, while Montoya's 2nd and 3rd on the grid have given him 16 points. Goes to show that Montoya has had the better strategy combined over those two races, in spite of (or maybe because of) Ralf being on pole. I find it a little bit funny that the Ralf fans during Montoya's seven pole positions last year stressed all the time that pole in itself didn't mean much unless you could convert it to race wins, while now, when the shoe is on the other foot, they mention Ralf's meagre two in a row, and all of the sudden, poles are very important to them even though pole means a lot less under the new regulations than it did under the old ones. Quite funny really.

[Damon]

It's the same for us all, what ever suits the current argument I guess. Mania, you are equally as biased as those you are accusing, just at the opposite end of the scale. The fact is that no one like to be wrong and thats were the arguments all stem from.

Now then, back on to the issue. Ralf has finished every race. True. However, through that he has only scored 2 more points than Montoya who was knocked out of contention twice through no fault of his own. So in essentially half the number of finishes to Ralf he's still only 2 points off him.

[Mania]

Originally posted by R
[B]

Since the Ralf fans focus so much on championship points, I would also like to point out that Ralf's two poles have given him 13 points from those races, while Montoya's 2nd and 3rd on the grid have given him 16 B]

Maybe so..But in Monaco both drivers were on a similar strategy..Ralf pitted two laps earlier because of tire problems..so I wouldnt say he had the wrong strategy..just bad luck.

That said..I think Juan Pablo would have won in Monaco regardless..as I said before..he was very quick in clear air but Ralf should have finished 2nd had it not been for the tire problems he had.

As far as poles go..last year all you Pablo fans were jumping up and down when he got his pole positions so we have every right to do the same

[Damon]

Ralf's tyre problems at Monaco were his own doing as he opted to up his tyre pressures in the hope that he could build a lead before the first stop. The gamble failed.

[Mania]

Well the gamble worked..he pulled over 2 seconds before the safety car came out..within 2 laps.

[Chui]

Actually, I'm disappointed in Ralf; 50 laps behind his brother and not one honest attempt to pass... tsk, tsk, tsk.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie
Ralf´s Girl, if you think performance and driverquality is measured in championshipstandings, there is no arguing with you.

Originally posted by golem
Ralf's girl, those numbers are fair enough. But I can't help but think of Austria. He was looking at 10 points until his car blew up by no fault of his own.

I think we can safely say that we don't (or rather, shouldn't) measure things in 'ifs and buts' in F1. There's no point - what good is it to say "But if..."? (ah, the favourite phrase of the Montoya fan!)

At the end of the day, performance over a season is measured in how many points you score, and how many you have in relation to other drivers, especially your team-mate. And right now, that says that Ralf is more consistent and has scored more points this season. Sorry JPM fans, but your rose-tinted glasses won't change that.

P.S. Why is the general consensus around here that it's ok for Montoya to 'cruise and collect', driving round behind someone else without ever trying to overtake, but not for Ralf to do the same? The ideology of Montoya fans is fascinating...

[Damon]

Because Montoya doesn't do it.

I think what myself and others have tried to explain is that points do not always reflect performance. They often reflect reliability or staying out of trouble above out and out performance, particularly this year with the new points system. You can have a pretty dire race (e.g. Ralf in Australia, Brazil, Spain and Austria) but still pick up points). On the other hand you may be leading and have an engine blow or be taken out of contention by having your rear wing knocked off, through no fault of your own, and as a result, pick up no points.

[nameless]

Originally posted by Ralf
..........
And now 2 poles later & a 4th & 2nd you are still crapping on......................

and what about jpm's two 2nds, with a win and a 3rd ........

i agree that ralf drove well but he didnt do much to make it exciting and never once intended to go for the win

jpm made a bid mistake which may have cost him the race but he was able to come back from that to finish 3rd which is a good acheivement, many lesser drivers would have gone downhill from that point.

i have not seen many arguments in this thread that are 2 sided as it obviously appears impossible to see the good point of both drivers. they are a good pairing, ralf picks up the points, while jpm gives the excitement and chance of wins.

but of course, neither is as good as alonso.......