Sore Loosers?

[Gavin Forman]

Good afternoon - I have one question for all the FIArari suppoters out there. Why would JPM risk taking RB out with the title on the line? Perhaps you think back a few years with DH and JV, MS is renowned for taking out the opposition to win the title.
I would love to see RB's bank balance today. Block JPM at all costs. It would be too obvious if MS did it, team orders work well. As I mentioned in another forum a while ago. MS has never won a title on his own, he has always had assistance from outside sources, team mates, FIA etc.

[Wrex]

riiiiiight

[bastinscully]

Is your name Fox Mulder? Gavin

[z2252314]

Replace Rubins with Montoya, and Montoya with Michael. What if Michael had made that move up the inside and Montoya was put out of the race (and championship)?

Would you still feel he should be let off?

Would you all be in here crying foul if he was let off?

Would you have accepted it if he was let off or would you be screaming for blood?


Hmmm, who can say hypocrisy?

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!!!!!!

[Shoe-maker]

I hope Montoya's humble pie doesn't stick in his throat too much. If it does he can always wash it down with a glass of wounded pride and then have a bowl of sour grapes for afters.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Gavin Forman
Why would JPM risk taking RB out with the title on the line? Perhaps you think back a few years with DH and JV, MS is renowned for taking out the opposition to win the title.

It isn't really the same because Montoya clearly wasn't trying to take Rubens out, but he was trying a ricky manoever. I think it was harsh punishment, but Montoya put himself in that position when he went for it.

Originally posted by Gavin Forman
I would love to see RB's bank balance today. Block JPM at all costs. It would be too obvious if MS did it, team orders work well. As I mentioned in another forum a while ago. MS has never won a title on his own, he has always had assistance from outside sources, team mates, FIA etc.

Michael not winning a title on his own? Even if you take the extreme view you can't really argue that he didn't do it on his own in '95 (as just one example). His team mate (no disrespect to Johnny) wasn't really near enough to help!

[Adam43]

Originally posted by z2252314
MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!!!!!!

Replacing the names applies whether you are a Michael or Montoya fan.

If a Montoya fan, would you have thought the drive through was unfair if Michael had pulled that move?

If a Michael fan, would you have thought the drive through was fair if Michael had pulled that move?

[Redblurr]

Sore Loosers understatement. I never seen anything like it - mulling over F1 history in 19** they ... face it MS throughly deserved to win and the best man Juan

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Shoe-maker
I hope Montoya's humble pie doesn't stick in his throat too much. If it does he can always wash it down with a glass of wounded pride and then have a bowl of sour grapes for afters.

You are too gracious.

[Phoenix1]

In my defence I am not so much upset over Montoyas penelty more the fact that witha visual yellow flag Schuey choose to pass. There is argument he was not in 'the zone' which on the reply he was not at the yellow flag but it's always been my principle when out on track if you see a flag coming up you brake earlier and slow down and that is what upset me. If punishment is dealt out I just want it to be fair that way we can all if not celebrate, respect, the winner

[Redblurr]

Originally posted by Phoenix1
In my defence I am not so much upset over Montoyas penelty more the fact that witha visual yellow flag Schuey choose to pass.

I like the bit about celebrate the winner.
You do 200mph with your wipers on look for a flag. Schumi doesn't have wipers, anyway your clutching at straws MS was level if not passed before he saw the flag from my angle. By that time his focal point would have been the braking for the corner.

[Adam43]

As I said above, after consideration etc.. I don't think MS did anything that requied a penalty (i.e nothing wrong).

However not seeing a flag isn't really a defence in these situations. Try using that to a clerk of the course!

[Canberra>karter]

At 200mph wind screen wipers would be a nuisance, and yes he should of seen the yelloe flag. The visibility was fine and there was no rooster tails. I am also of a belief that if you see the flag on the stretch of track you are on you are in "the zone". MS just got lucky on the 50/50 Montoya didn't, might be different next time. I'm just ****ed that the next round won't be a 1st in wins scenario. Oh well the 5th place constructor's championship is going down to this scenario.

[Glen]

Doesn't matter if he saw it or not. You slow down and avoid passing within the zone, not before it. If it were unsafe to overtake just before that zone they would have extended the zone back to the previous marshall point.

[Sodemo]

How can people say that JPM is not championship material, he was within 1 point of TGF 2 weeks ago - is that not championship material?

[Thorstone]

I'm sure of Rubens was act on team orders,
what was blocking JPM at all costs,Rubens did deserve penelty not JPM

[Redblurr]

where did the blocking take place?

[Gt_R]

Hahahha...darn..i almost can't believe what some non-pro-Michael people wrote on this forum.

Come on, can't you guys just admit that Michael did a far better job than Montoya yesterday.

Whoopee...so THAT penalty caused him the championship?Yes IT DOES! Because without the penalty, Montoya would have finished in 5th perhaps and at least prolong the WDC for another race. But otherwise, it won't have made much difference because Montoya won't finish ahead of Kimi nor Michael yesterday.

Irregardless of who was the guy involved in yesterday's clash b/w Juan and Rubens, be it for Juan or michael, i'd feel the penalty is harsh. As i've said yesterday, it's a pity the punishment have to be made for a gutsy move which results in an unintentional accident, but that's about it. It's just as silly a move (michael pulling a move on Button is equally risky) as it was gutsy for the fact that it wasn't neccessary.. but funny how some people's sense of "If punishment is dealt out I just want it to be fair that way we can all if not celebrate, respect, the winner", the key word "FAIR" is actually dictated by a logic of "punish the rival i hate, not my boy". sigh. FIA is perfectly fair and correct regarding the "Michael passing - yellow flags?" incident. But just because Michael's in the incident...he MUST be wrong, FIA MUST be cheaters and unfair, and it's only fair if Michael's punished for something he isn't wrong for...right?

Quote:"I'm sure of Rubens was act on team orders,
what was blocking JPM at all costs,Rubens did deserve penelty not JPM"

Are you kidding? You must be insane to actually think Ruben's would get out of the way for Juan. Why should Rubens? He's driving for Ferrari, and mind you...fighting for the WCC! If anything, Juan had taken his rival for WCC out...did anyone say "Williams is cheating with team orders?" Not that i see! And Ruben's isn't the only guy with the team-instruction of hindering their immediate rivals. Williams and Mclaren ain't clean with their 2nd drivers either! How about penalising Ralf and David?

And where's the blocking? From what i know, the race had just barely started when the over-eager move happened!!

And Ruben's had not made ANY intention to take Juan out. He merely drove a defensive race which he is FULLY entitled too. Any suggestions that Ruben's would intentionally take Juan, who is a good friend of Ruben's, out of the race is a insult to Rubens character and plain sour grapes! Juan sticked his nose trying to pull off a move. It'd be real great a move if it comes through, but unfortunately he didnt. Yet he still persist on squeezing and ended up knocking Ruben's out. He ought to be thankful that he didn't take himself out.

The same people who claim that Michael's 40s race domination in the past as boring and killing F1, praised Montoya's Germany race domination as an exciting race and great class. And those same people complain about a bad race and cry foul when we actually have a bloody interesting US GP and a great performance by Michael simply because the winner's called Michael.. WTF?

And i'm absolutely sure if the situation of MS and Montoya were reversed, we would actually have critics rubbing in at MS's loss and cheering for his defeat.

Whatever the critics can whine or complain, Michael is undoubtedly the deserved respected and celebrated winner of the USGP2003, and i'm sorry he put poor Montoya out of WDC in the meanwhile. But if the critic's cant stand the heat, then they should get out of the kitchen (hmmm...who said that before? ) And even if the WDC is one decided by vote, Michael's still the most deserved of all 3 to be the WDC this year.

Cheers to Ferrari, Bridgestone and Michael for a job well done!

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Gt_R
And i'm absolutely sure if the situation of MS and Montoya were reversed, we would actually have critics rubbing in at MS's loss and cheering for his defeat.

Yes and that would be a bit childish considering that their fave had won.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Thorstone
I'm sure of Rubens was act on team orders,
what was blocking JPM at all costs,Rubens did deserve penelty not JPM

I agree with Gt_r here. What bloking. It is not as if Montoya was stuck behind Rubens for laps after Rubens had been weaving all over the place. reubens just did what you do in a race situation irrespective of teams.

[Fogelhund]

These threads are always entertainment. I don't like Ferrari, and I particularly don't like TGF for some of his antics in the past.

Having said that, I was outraged at the penalty that Montoya received. But, really, if he hadn't had a bad start, there never would have been the opportunity to collide with Barichello. If he hadn't spun, hadn't had the bad pit..... I suppose if there hadn't been the penalty, he might have finished a position or two higher, but really the Montoya/Michelin/Williams combo had a bad day.

As far as the Panis pass, despite my dislike for TGF, I have to say it was a clean pass. TGF seized the day like he has so often. Another championship all but locked up. Perhaps we who dislike TGF can hope for retirement, or next year. Even so, give him a drive through penalty, and he is pretty close to Raikonnen, and would likely have beat him anyway.

Congrats to Ferrari/Bridgestone/Schumacher combo on a good win.

[Red]

Originally posted by The Monster
he was within 1 point of TGF

A bit of pedantry here, but if we'd count all of them we'd find 3 (three) points of Schumacher 2 weeks ago, or 1 point behind but 4 weeks ago.

Now, don't mind me, carry on.

[Splatz the Cow]

I have to agree with Glen and some others about the Yellow, if the passing is done before you reach the flag that does not contravene the rules of F1. If that was a dangerous area before T1, than there would have been additional flags further up the straight there were not. There really is nothing to argue here, and actually its probably better to complete the pass and get it done because Panis would have known he was being drafted by Michael.

If Montoya deserved a penalty, than the FIA had a number of options to consider and one of them is a drive through penalty. But there is also disqualification or the "Minus10GridPlaces" rule, as I call it. This would have been more fair and appropriate I think.

I am probably the only one here that thinks that Barrichello tightend his arc at or after the apex to the corner giving Montoya no where to go - given that his tyres were interlocked with the Ferrari. Montoya was known in CART to watch his tyres (even if indirectly) in these situations, to avoid tyre-to-tyre contact. When being being squeezed like that, using the tyres to push the other car away is a safe method of disentangling.

Perhaps its time to consider why Barrichello was so far over to the left when he new that Montoya had been alongside him for about 50m. All that watched the race would have seen that Montoya was on the very edge of the track. He held his line because at no time did Barrichello get his car anymore than partly ahead. Perhaps Barrichello thought Montoya would pull back (very unlikely as Rubens would know. At all times the tyres were interlocked, yet still Barrichello did not move further over. There is more than one option here, and Montoya chose to push Barrichello wide, which he did safely, but putting the Ferrari into the gravel and out of the race. The FIA gave him a drive penalty.

I would appreciate if each of you take at least a little time to think, what were Montoya's other options?

What might your driver have done in this situation or from what options could they have chosen?

[Splatz the Cow]

PS. While I was posting some made mention of Barrichello possibly putting out Montoya deliberately. This as others have said is rubbish. It doesn't need or even deserve comment further. Ferrari may have wanted him to make it difficult for Montoya if they are close, but they need both Ferraris to finish.

[Glen]

I reckon Ferrari exploited Montoya's known weakness - ie they knew there would be a chance that he would be aggressive and compromise his own race. Montoya should definitely have waited until turn 1 came round again and gone for him in the wide open space. I do believe that Rubens may have been briefed to go wheel to wheel with Juan if the opportunity arose - indeed I do think it is suspicious that Rubens had as bad a start as Juan (Barrichello practically reversed back down the grid to meet him!). But that's all fair game if you ask me - and a big boy's game at that. Experience and temprament are as important as pure driving ability at this level, and I'm afraid that JPM was found wanting when it came to it. and I'm a JPM fan! Next year...

BTW, I am not suggesting at all that Rubens took him out - only that Ferrari may have assessed that Juan was prone to pushing too hard if pressurised.