Arp F3 - Page 2

andy97 · 12 Jul 2005, 14:53 (Ref:1353596)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

I can see the point you are making John, and it is an old problem, but I find that those who can/intend buying new tyres every( or nearly every) round will do so regardless of the tyre used, but those who cannot afford new tyres and only just afford to prepare the cars will be lost to the formula.

Exactly the point that Neil & I were making, and one of the reasons that Mono is popular, & possible with a modern car.

JohnMiller · 12 Jul 2005, 15:01 (Ref:1353602)

I feel that, with eight ARP meetings this year, buying a new set per meeting will not be the biggest expense if you want to compete 'properly' and I think will cost no more than what I and many others spend on FF1600 tyres now.

I have also been assured that you can run ARP without new tyres and believe that the aforementioned Mr Winslow ran on a co-competitors throwaways much of the time.

Also, anyone who believes that there aren't Mono competitors running new tyres every time they get in the car hasn't got their eyes open!

Redracer77 · 12 Jul 2005, 15:45 (Ref:1353642)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy97

John Miller's point about FF Zetecs is well made, though. I can't understand why Mono has not been flooded with Zetecs, particularly in the Mono 1800 class. Potentially very cheap racing.

They have all been converted to Kent FF1600's for even cheaper motorsport!!

JohnMiller · 12 Jul 2005, 15:47 (Ref:1353645)

As a lover of FF1600 I have to say that Mono is somewhat cheaper than doing FF1600 properly...

Jimamber · 12 Jul 2005, 15:50 (Ref:1353651)

Having competed in both championships winning the mono 2000 as it is now

i spent the grand total of £1200 to win the mono way back in 1989 then moved to arp in the ninities finishing third in the first season.
I can assure any one that arp is more expensive by the very nature of the engine they are more fragile(even than thr full race 1600crossflow that i ran in mono),also the majority of drivers now in ARP are arrive and drive not owner driver prepared.
Any way cost is realative to one person what is a lot of money is not to another. there are drivers in mono who are paying to have cars prepared and brought to the meetings,either because they can not do there own prep.or dont want to and have the money to do it.
I gave up arp when i found i was spending more and more money to go bacwards down the grid, and being an old fart i couldnt do the 30 minute races.

schomosport · 12 Jul 2005, 19:01 (Ref:1353959)

Great thread and very informative. Neil's thread summarises why I am happy to stick with Mono - even if I'm a slow fart who won't be any quicker with a proper chassis than with a couple of FVL planks. I was about to add that I'm also poor but no one who goes motor racing can claim that. Privileged more like.

Lola · 12 Jul 2005, 22:23 (Ref:1354191)

Well said neil. I used 3rd hand rubber at Silverstone this season and will do so again at Mallory....unless we can arrange a deal on those second hand Yokos Neil? lol

Neil1982 · 13 Jul 2005, 20:35 (Ref:1354955)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Just for the record, you used acouple of words which suggested you thought I was an ARP runner, I am just slightly interested, I'm actually a BARC Renault runner.

Sorry Bob. If you wanted to run a Modern F3 type car could you not use a later Tatuus F.Renault. I thought they were based heavily on a Dallara F396??

Lola. have not used those Yokos yet. May have to throw them in as an incentive to a potential Reynard buyer but if not....I think we probably owe you a favour for the loan of the rear wing and nose box (Which we have almost replaced by the way!).

Bob Pearson · 14 Jul 2005, 08:12 (Ref:1355227)

We do run 97, 98 and 99 Tatuus's and your right, you certainly can see the family resemblances to the Dallara F3's especially in running gear and suspension designs.
I was asking the questions mainly because my interest had been aroused at Mallory last week, and quite frankly, it is always a shame to me to see a formula that I feel should be riding high appear to be struggling. ( after all, we know what it feels like to fall from a great height to the struggling level.)

kickstart · 14 Jul 2005, 19:04 (Ref:1355626)

Given how much it would cost to run at the sharp end in ARP F3, if I had the budget I would rather run an old F5000 in the Derek Bell or an F2 in Europe or an F3 in France.

When you think about it there are rather a lot of series in the UK and Europe which cater for single seater drivers albeit in rather different cars but for similar budgets. I remeber an article about John Crowson in motorsport a few months back saying that he had done a competitive season in GP masters for £60k excluding the cost of buying the car.

THR · 15 Jul 2005, 19:16 (Ref:1356463)

tis a bit dearer, but aint that much dearer!
masters class cars could still be up the sharp end and not so long ago the pace was the same.
there is currently some fuss with messing about with air intake sizes and putting feul injection on the older cars to make it all faster and closer racing. which would mean a fair bit of cost for the older teams, with dynos etc.
so the running costs are higher, and the cars need to be set up better to work well. so if your no good with corner weight scales and setting toe, then dont bother!! lol

all the cars are stunning tho, even the old ones, the level of quality is just so much higher in the car build. i suppose u could argu the cars are one step down from F1.
and they are lovely!! ours is a bit poorly at the mo, but nearly all fixed

entry costs are a bit dearer, but u get longer on track.
oh and u usually get first dabs on the garages which is bloody great!!!!

Triple J Motorsport · 15 Jul 2005, 20:47 (Ref:1356528)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THR

u usually get first dabs on the garages which is bloody great!!!!

Unless you race when MSV FF1600 is on the bill then we get them

Walshy · 19 Jul 2005, 10:18 (Ref:1358447)

Can someone just tell me.

Is Steve Clegg still racing in the ARP?

Not heard anything of him for sometime now.

darcym · 19 Jul 2005, 11:55 (Ref:1358513)

he was out at castlecombe and running well

Walshy · 19 Jul 2005, 12:21 (Ref:1358543)

Cheers.

Not spoke to him in ages.

Does he post on here do you know?

gadgit · 23 Jul 2005, 16:54 (Ref:1361559)

I nearly bought a Dallara for ARP F3 BUT !

The price of repairs put me off !
Nearly everything is special in the engine just for starters. I suppose, if you were lucky and bought one with a recon unit or one with only a few miles of use it would be reliable, but, its when it goes wrong that you need to have an expert with you to look after it.

Take the Dallara! Special ignition system with the need of a laptop to monitor whats going on, and to alter things if required. The chap who owned it said that he always took his machanic with him when he ran it as he knew how to drive it, and the machanic knew how to mend it. Notice how these beasts take a lot of looking after !!

Now if you are like me, and do a bit, or all your running repairs, I suppose you could do it. The Dallara had a solid crank honed out of a block of special steel and anyone like to guess how much that would cost if it went west! (I know it most likely won't, but its the thought)

From what he told me about the engine (it would not tick over under about 4000 rpm) it only had a narrow power band and was only the 8 valve VW engine. It had the 25 ml air restrictor and knocked out about 170 bhp from what I can remember, or might have been less. Thats plenty of power I know, but due to the restrictions in the air flow the engine has to be hammered to get the power.

This is what F3 was all about in the mid/late 80's. Trying to get power through modifications due to the air restrictor and thats why it can get very expensive for pistons /valves/ cranks, and other bespoke lightweight componants.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and thats happened before) but I assume a mid to late 90's F3 fit for ARP would be a bit more standard and reliable as they had the advantage of more modern and technically advanced engine to use.

Cleggie · 4 Aug 2005, 16:31 (Ref:1372069)

I Walshy, I should be out again for the rest of the season: Donington, Oulton & Castle Coombe.

Car kept chopping out on the last lap of the last 4 races I was in, meaning I lost about 4 places all on the lat lap. the last time it stopped altoghether so we've been doing a bit of work and its OK now.

The old Masters Class cars can be competitive, but are just a bit more difficult coz they are older and a bit slower so need a bit more work and stuff making for them. But its all a question of cost. You can race a really competitive Masters just a second, (or at the most 2 seconds) or so off the pace of the best Dallara driver for about the same cost of running an FF1600, I know because I've done both, While it will cost the average Dallara driver about £25,000 (or more) to keep on the pace, or not. As for my engine, I last had a complete rebuild with Neil Bold 4 years ago and never opened it up since. Its still as powerful and matches the 16v Honda's in the Dallara in straight line accelleration, and I have 2 spare engines in my workshop worth about £3,500 each, what price a good Kent? Tyres too are almost the same as FF1600.

Trouble is, sometime soon they're going to give A class bigger air resitrictors, this is so the current British F3 cars enter without expensive engine mods, so that will make my old Reynard 863 look very, very slow.

Ian Sowman · 4 Aug 2005, 18:45 (Ref:1372210)

I heard a very interesting reason why the restrictor size was going to be increased the other day...

Lola · 4 Aug 2005, 19:34 (Ref:1372257)

and........

Ian Sowman · 4 Aug 2005, 19:44 (Ref:1372266)

Well, last year I believe that the Jedis were faster than ARP F3 at Oulton on the same day.

andoiwebb · 4 Aug 2005, 19:46 (Ref:1372271)

lola looks like he's eager to get his teeth into this one!!! tell us ian? what about the lap times?

Ian Sowman · 4 Aug 2005, 20:06 (Ref:1372281)

Fastest laps from August 21st 2004:

ARP F3 1m23.220s (96.29mph)
Jedi 1m22.092s (97.61mph)

I will leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Cleggie · 5 Aug 2005, 08:26 (Ref:1372631)

Its not that the Jedi are quicker, (although they clearly are, F3 - Jedi aren't a proper match, I raced with them in my F3 at Anglesey late last year, and they are far quicker in acceleration but they are a different concept).

There are, I understand, 2 reasons why ARP drivers want bigger restrictors: One set of drivers, who have enough capital outlay, can then go and buy current British F3 cars without having to do costly mods, which seem to cause some teething problems. The other opinion, perhaps, is that some people just want to go quicker, and the quick and easy way to do that is have bigger restrictors.

However, when you look at the lap times, there aren't that many drivers, (mabey about 5 or 6), who are driving thier current A Class cars so well that they can't squeeze any more time out of them.

I wonder why one would want to spend all that money on a quick fix to going quicker, when the real secret to speed lies with the cars they already have: F3= not much power & loads of grip. Answer: the quickest driver/car will be that with the fastest cornering speeds, simple! Rather than spend all that lovely cash ditching a perfectly good car on yet more capital outlay, why not spend it on set-up, tyres and testing, lots of it.

We wait with interest when the restrictors change, to see this will increase the ARP grids. It may just be that there a more drivers with lots of cash who will fill the grids with these new crop of faster cars. For me, I have trouble enough keeping up with current Class A. I can't see myself running in a race where I'm futher handicapped just because other cars have a bigger restrictor. Perhaps this is just my view, but there must be plenty of FF1600 drivers who would love to have go at ARP F3 on a similar FF1600 budget. I also belive that if you can drive a FF1600 quickly, F3 is a doddle!

Arty B · 5 Aug 2005, 08:50 (Ref:1372655)

What an articulate intelligent man. Very well put.

gadgit · 6 Aug 2005, 17:00 (Ref:1373809)

I don't want to get into that old argument about the Jedi, But I looked at them before buying my Ralt.
Most people know them as a point and squirt rocket. And lets face it they do shift. It may just be me, but I didn't just want a car, I wanted a piece of history as well. I have no intention in slagging off Jedi's and I am not suggesting anyone else has (so far)

Its just nice to no that my Ralt was forth in the British F3 championship in 1986 and D. Hill and other famous drivers were behind it!
Gary Brabham was 5th. ( Jack Brabham racing)

I saw Jack Brabham at Goodwood and felt like going over and saying " I've got a Ralt RT30 just like you ran for your son, and now me and my son run one"

I chickened out, and I don't suppose he would have been that interested, but he would have no doubt, had a go in it, in some form or another. (well I would have if I was him)

God only knows how much they cost to produce, or how much they were to buy at the time, but at the moment there is not a famous Jedi out there, that I know of??

Its that knowledge that gives me pleasure in owning it every time I go into the garage, or take it for a spin, that keeps me interested.

I presume all the other F3 drivers have a heap of history about their cars ?