Sponsorship

[cleanup]

Originally Posted by jeanalesi64

I dont agree with you. Karting is very overrated, and the driving technique required to be a good karting driver has nothing to do with formula cars. To do karting internationally is usually more expensive than the lowest categories in formula racing. I would recommend to drive a national championship in F-Renault or similiar class, since the first 2 years is basically about learning the car, and it doesnt really matter where you learn is as long as you have a good engineer which can help you, and people around that knows whats good/not.

Dont listen to these karting guys.

My advice to find sponsorship is to go to the local companies and try to make them "help" you, instead of trying to tell them that they will make money of you - because they wont. Its just a big fat lie until you get to DTM/F1/Indy.
The best would be to ask a company for a support of ~1000 EUR, and then you have to call/visit/email MANY companies. Dont expect it to be easy.
But this is way more easy than to find a big sponsor, because they basically dont exist if you dont know the "head-guy" personally. Big companies just wont find a profit in you...

Good luck

Cant agree to your comments regarding the karting guys, ALL basic skill sets are learned in karting, race craft and discipline. Why do the majority of all top drivers come from karting. Its always best to master karting, get some results at national level and then approach sponsors as you say, that way, the potential is proven. Karting has declined in recent years but pretty well all potential sponsors with small but important contributions would rather support a champion in something rather than an also ran in Formula ford or Renault, sad as it is, lack of funding even in the lower formulae will mean you wont get that good team, car or engineer. As a result, there will be a lack of performance, lack of results and a shattered dream. Without ability learned from grass roots of karting, starting in cars against those that have is not a wise move. Walk before you can run in business and racing, one of the same.

[graham bahr]

Why do the majority of all top drivers come from karting.

because they had parents that can chuck loads of money away sending their kids off karting at a young age where they couldn't realistically do any other competitive driving

[petergriffin]

karting is still cheapest form of assessing whether there is talent there. video games are not.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

because they had parents that can chuck loads of money away sending their kids off karting at a young age where they couldn't realistically do any other competitive driving

That is a sweeping generalisation that may be true in some cases but certainly not in all. We went karting on a shoestring & so did many others at the time. Like many dad & lad outfits we did it mainly for fun. We started with a 4 year old cadet outfit that cost about £800. In the first season we entered about 20 local club races. We had the tyres that came with the kart and during the season we bought just one new set each of slicks & wets. The kart was well maintained & sold at the end of the year for almost what we paid for it.

Only in year three with sevaral victories and a couple of club championships under his belt and some support from sponsors did Scott go to the National Super One championship, still with a 2nd hand kart I might add all be it with a better one than we started with.

[jeanalesi64]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

because they had parents that can chuck loads of money away sending their kids off karting at a young age where they couldn't realistically do any other competitive driving

Thanks...

Well from my experience you would learn more about driving a CAR in a good simulation game like Race 07/GTR Evo/rFactor, rather than driving karting ^^

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by jeanalesi64

Thanks...

Well from my experience you would learn more about driving a CAR in a good simulation game like Race 07/GTR Evo/rFactor, rather than driving karting ^^

i dont play such games but i cant for one moment imagine playing one would teach you anything like as much race craft or vehicle control as driving a kart

[Peat]

What's your experience then? Because from mine i'd say that's totally bogus.

I play those titles, they are good for teaching general racecraft and keeping sharp over the winter but nothing comes close to teaching you about the relationship between rubber and tarmac better than actually doing it for real. Regardless of being in a kart or a car.

[terence]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

i dont play such games but i cant for one moment imagine playing one would teach you anything like as much race craft or vehicle control as driving a kart

Quite agree,major problem with these games is that you can shunt it,and still drive away. It aint like that in real life boys,as the real thing will either hurt physically or financially. Might give an idea on where the bendy bits are but they tend to flatten things out a bit.

[GORDON STREETER]

If you can't afford to go circuit racing look somewhere else to "hone your skills" on car control like autotest/grass track/oval circuit/trials at the cheapest class that you can find.
You can't run before you can walk and getting the "feel" of what a car can or cannot do on a slippery surface at a slower terminal speed for a while will certainly do that.
Motorsport has never been cheap and it's getting worse with this PC world we live in unfortunately .
When I started back in the late 60s I wrote about 80 letters (no fax/emails then) to various firms and I think I had one reply saying that they would supply oil, and that was it !
I would think that none of the people that are on 10/10ths are fully sponsored and actually make any money out of racing by being just a driver (the reverse is more like it ) as the saying goes "to make a million start with two" now that's the real deal !!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

i dont play such games but i cant for one moment imagine playing one would teach you anything like as much race craft or vehicle control as driving a kart

I agree that the "games" out there for X-Box or similar probably teach you little apart from which order the corners arrive in.

I wouldn't underestimate the more advanced simulators though, like r-Factor, which allow you to build a pretty accurate model of car behaviour providing you have the skills and access to the data of course. You can buy a seat, pretty good realistic wheel system and a PC with a decent graphics card and a monitor or three for a lot less than a competitive Go-Kart. It's a lot cheaper to run too and you'll learn far more about vehicle dynamics than you ever will in a Kart.

In an ideal world, I think you'd do both.

[MagnetON]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I would think that none of the people that are on 10/10ths are fully sponsored and actually make any money out of racing by being just a driver (the reverse is more like it ) as the saying goes "to make a million start with two" now that's the real deal !!

I can think of one right off the top of my head!

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by MagnetON

I can think of one right off the top of my head!

I would doubt that they would make enough money to actually live just by driving in races. We are not talking about tuition or running track days, I've driven a sponsors race car taking his customers on "hot laps" at various tracks over the years and been paid good money, but as it was limited throughout the year it didn't amount to a fortune.
I also know a couple of guys that are paid to race but the same thing applies

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by jeanalesi64

I dont agree with you. Karting is very overrated, and the driving technique required to be a good karting driver has nothing to do with formula cars. To do karting internationally is usually more expensive than the lowest categories in formula racing. I would recommend to drive a national championship in F-Renault or similiar class, since the first 2 years is basically about learning the car, and it doesnt really matter where you learn is as long as you have a good engineer which can help you, and people around that knows whats good/not.

Dont listen to these karting guys.

My advice to find sponsorship is to go to the local companies and try to make them "help" you, instead of trying to tell them that they will make money of you - because they wont. Its just a big fat lie until you get to DTM/F1/Indy.
The best would be to ask a company for a support of ~1000 EUR, and then you have to call/visit/email MANY companies. Dont expect it to be easy.
But this is way more easy than to find a big sponsor, because they basically dont exist if you dont know the "head-guy" personally. Big companies just wont find a profit in you...

Good luck

I totally agree about the fact that karting is overrated.I mean you can learn the fundamentals of race-craft etc. but like you also mentioned, karts are very much different to actual cars. Driving simulators such as R Factor and Gran Turismo can teach you the fundamentals as well and there are some very talented racers on the network who deserve and do race for real. I'm not saying that these sims are better than karting because karts are visceral and actually real as supposed to a simulation but I think many slate sims as being 'just games'.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Whether karting is "overrated" or not the fact is many rich Dads will spend a fortune on it and it's in the interests of the Kart industry to perpetuate the idea that only by starting a 8 can your child reach his or her potential.

The assertion that so many successful racing drivers were also successful karters is mainly a reflection of the fact that you need extreme amounts of cash available to the youngster to progress thereafter, even to the lower levels of National motorsport. Yes, there is always the occasional exception, but generally speaking if you have the funds for National Karting then the next step won't seem that onerous. More than one Dad has told me they spent far more in Karts than the first year in Club single seaters with a top team.

So, when I see another young man told that at 16 his F1 dream is over I refuse to believe it. Tell him he's too poor, that's fine, but don't say he couldn't make it without a kart career because I just don't believe that's true.

[FFfan]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Whether karting is "overrated" or not the fact is many rich Dads will spend a fortune on it and it's in the interests of the Kart industry to perpetuate the idea that only by starting a 8 can your child reach his or her potential.

The assertion that so many successful racing drivers were also successful karters is mainly a reflection of the fact that you need extreme amounts of cash available to the youngster to progress thereafter, even to the lower levels of National motorsport. Yes, there is always the occasional exception, but generally speaking if you have the funds for National Karting then the next step won't seem that onerous. More than one Dad has told me they spent far more in Karts than the first year in Club single seaters with a top team.

So, when I see another young man told that at 16 his F1 dream is over I refuse to believe it. Tell him he's too poor, that's fine, but don't say he couldn't make it without a kart career because I just don't believe that's true.

Most of the recent F1 Champions have a karting pedigree, 1996 Champion Damon Hill being a notable exception although he did have 2 wheel competition experience in both junior trials riding and then circuit racing.

When my son began racing in '98 in the 60cc Comer Cadet class (2 stroke) at the end of that season one of the champions engines allegidly changed hands for £9k which was over three times our budget for the entire season. There will always be dads out there with too much money trying to buy little Johnny an advantage. And yes a season in top European Karting can set you back more than a season in a national single seater championship.

But karting doesnt have to be mega expensive. For very little outlay and no investment in equipment a driver can comptete in Club 100 championships from the year of their 16th birthday and the standard of both the preparation of the equipment & the competition is pretty good.

I'm not against simulators, they are increasingly becoming more realistic and the fact that so many current professional drivers use them regularly validates their relevance. But karting can teach a driver how to deal with cut & thrust of close competition for real and lets not forget should be counted as a valid form of motorsport in its own right and not just as a passage to pass through on the journey to single seaters. Many drivers remain in karting without ever moving to cars and enjoy their motorsport every bit as much.

[cleanup]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

because they had parents that can chuck loads of money away sending their kids off karting at a young age where they couldn't realistically do any other competitive driving

What a blank pathetic answer, how little you know. The majority, if not all top single seater drivers have come from karting, some started with nothing but ambition and determination. For sure, some parents throw money at their kids but they fall away rapidly as they go up the ranks. Some make a success from monumental sacrifice and talent to support it, its all too easy to judge everyone with the same attitude. Open your eyes man!

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by cleanup

What a blank pathetic answer, how little you know. The majority, if not all top single seater drivers have come from karting, some started with nothing but ambition and determination. For sure, some parents throw money at their kids but they fall away rapidly as they go up the ranks. Some make a success from monumental sacrifice and talent to support it, its all too easy to judge everyone with the same attitude. Open your eyes man!

yes they have come from karting because there was a big stack of money to pay for karting! plus if your young there isnt really anything else you can do other than junior dragsters

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

yes they have come from karting because there was a big stack of money to pay for karting! plus if your young there isnt really anything else you can do other than junior dragsters

Or schoolboy motocross, but a similar thing happens with that with a lot fathers shelling out serious money to live vicariously through their youngsters !

[ivanalesi]

The reason that I said his chances for F1 career are over is because 1) He doesn't have Petrov's cash; 2) All teams look for karting experience and in fact from age 8.
I find it a little bit strange people here comparing simulator games with karting, because it's true that Rfactor is used by most GP2/GP3/F3 teams, but the difference comes from their hardware. Their steering & pedals, even the best commercial ones don't come close. In fact the basic static simulators who use Rfactor are good to learn the track & work on your driving with your race engineer, but nothing more. Top notch F1 simulators use different form of Rfactor, it's Pro version and along with the movements it's a whole new experience. Playing at home, you can learn stuff about setup and race craft, how to plan moves and so on. I think Damon Hill recently explained very well. He said that for some reason his son Josh has fantastic race craft for his limited experience and most probably comes from the many hours spent gaming, but he lacks this initial feeling at the start of the weekend where you are bang on the pace, because he has no karting experience.
In karting you learn about the tires, they're such an important aspect of racing. You have changing conditions all the time. In Rfactor the grip stays the same for the whole sessions, it's not changing every 10 sec.
But most importantly you don't train your body to sense when your car starts to slide or not. You only have a slight visual sense when the car starts to slide in sims, but you don't feel anything with your butt Your subconscious reactions to changes are done using only information from your eyes, ears and receptors on your hands. In karts it's a lot more involved These are biological reasons why the teams are looking for drivers who have started from very early age.
Don't get me wrong, I would love sims to substitute karting, it's way too expensive and way too old-fashioned. I can't believe all karts are made in EU instead of China and the price of tires is pretty incredible too. Result is that more and more people taste rental karts, but less and less people taste racing karts, which is quite a stupid business model. I mean, you make more money selling reliable mass production Toyota rather than selling Rolls Royces and the budgets in European karting are Rolls Royce territory!

[tristancliffe]

I think the teams use rFactor PRO, which is like rFactor, but all the internal modules are replaceable and customisable. So they throw away 99% of the code and put a decent simulator in it.

Nobody in their right mind, even just a gamer, would use rFactor Std (the version most people know of) for more than 2 minutes because it's rubbish.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

yes they have come from karting because there was a big stack of money to pay for karting! plus if your young there isnt really anything else you can do other than junior dragsters

I think that is essentially correct. The recent F1 Champions did karting because it was available, their parents had the funds, and when that's what was in vogue....that's what you do. Karting first, then cars. If you want to race F1 you must do karting first.

I loved my 3 seasons of club level karting but I didn't find too many transferable skills to driving a Formula Ford personally. All the things like weight transfer, brake balance etc just had to be learn't from scratch. Maybe cars today are different, I don't know it was 30 odd years ago, but I view karts as a very enjoyable, different yet related sport to single seaters.

My main point is I object to the "if you haven't been a successful karter by 16 you will never get to Formula One" theory because I think that is an outdated view, not to say very depressing for any 14 year old from a family of modest means to read.

I will go out on a limb and wager a pint that there will be a single seater champion at a very high level that will have been entirely trained by simulation prior to his debut in cars before the end of the decade. Such is the pace of development in this technology.

Any takers?

[Peat]

Trying to steer this back on topic ----

Basically, don't rely on your ranking on F12011 to win you any sponsors.

[mountainstar]

I was like many back around that age, like just about anyone I wanted to be an F1 driver.

Looking back I don't feel bad overall because I did the best with what circumstances I had. I'm sure in retrospect there were things I should have known or done better or differently, but hindsight is 20/20.

I think the biggest thing I underestimated back in that age range, which is common to any teenager and young adult, is the lack of appreciation for the amount of dollars required to do certain things and how long/hard it takes to acquire those dollars. And in the case of motorsport, it takes a vast quantity of dollars to even get reasonably started. You are also at the age where you don't have the knowledge and experience to command high wages either to generate those funds.

When it comes to sponsorship, you have to have something worth selling and that isn't going to happen until you get the experience and results and can generate PR and marketing figures to make it worthwhile for a company to get a return from you.

Sure, you can sometimes find sympathetic people that will give out some patronage, but that is either for low dollar figures or you found a rare diamond of a person that will write big checks for fun.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers. It's great to talk about how long to do karting or what karting series or where you start in single seaters, but if you don't have a solid brick of cash, nothing is happening. Sadly at that age in motorsport you either have a rich dad, a connected mentor or a wealthy patron. Or else it is not happening. And you will not get the mentor or patron without getting some results first. Kind of a Catch 22.

[jeanalesi64]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Quite agree,major problem with these games is that you can shunt it,and still drive away. It aint like that in real life boys,as the real thing will either hurt physically or financially. Might give an idea on where the bendy bits are but they tend to flatten things out a bit.

If you want to become a champion you cant think of such things anyway.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by jeanalesi64

If you want to become a champion you cant think of such things anyway.

If you want to live long enough to be champion you will.

This idea that to be a champion you toss all thoughts of survival of man and car out the window is not reality. Real champions rarely crash and keep it on the road to win.