Thank You, Frank Williams and Patrick Head!!!

[Adam43]

Posts with insults removed. See the forum rules.

If you want to discuss fine, but insults and foul language is not allowed here. See the FAQ.

[RWC]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

.... and it is a bash which is against the forum rules .....

Pretty d*mn stupid rules then if we're not allowed to express a valid opinion about someone
How about you enforce this rule everytime someone bags the GPWC?

[Kicking-back]

Those were the rules you signed up to, RWC.

[RWC]

abit of consistancy would be good

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by RWC

abit of consistancy would be good

I think we are consistent, if the same terms were expressed against individual members of that organisation the same rules would apply.

People can express balanced opinions without such emotive language, why terms like hate or idiot are needed as descriptions is beyond me.

In any event none of us (at a fair guess) have ever met, spoken or had any direct contact with MM - so we only know what is reported, or what we hear.

Clearly someone who rises to high office in any organisation is not an idiot by definition. People may not agree with what they say, that doesn't make them an idiot - which was my point.

Perhaps, 'I don't agree with the way MM runs the FIA because....' would be a better starting place for a discussion.

FWIW, in case you think I favour one over the other, I believe both the GPWC and the FIA have flaws in their organisation - as you will see in the many posts I have made on the subject over the years...!

[Gt_R]

If it is a clear war between Max vs teams , and that the emotions against each other are so strong, i suggest that, if all attempts to compromise fail, that one party has to go.

And i think Max have to go. Not neccessary because max is wrong or teams are right. Both are at fault...but the constant bad blood and fight between the two parties is bad for motorsports, for F1, for everyone. And it is important that the situation improve fast. If there is somebody as capable, if not more, without a vested interest in any team, available, who is respectable and has good relationship with teams, yet strong enough to be independent and open enough to outside ideas...i think he should run for presidency.

For the better of the sports, maybe a scapegoat, and a bit of changes is good for everyone.

[Super Tourer]

I think that it has become too 'personal' - some of the comments that MM was quoted as making about PS ('he knows all about slowing an F1 car down' - or words to that effect) were unneccesary and didn't add to the debate.

When you get different sets of ego's against each other, one has to fracture their's to move forward.

As you say, both 'sides' make good and valid points, who is actually listening to them and acting on them amongst the rhetoric is debatable.

Sir FW says unity is key amongst the teams:From www.autosport.com

That is the view of team boss Frank Williams, who has made it clear that there is no hint of wavering among the teams about trying to hammer a better deal out of F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone – and that they all accept that sticking together can help them in other disputes with FIA president Max Mosley and Ferrari.

“I think what we have realised is the best way of surviving and having our rights upheld is by sticking together,” said Williams. “Bernie has always exploited us by trying to split us and splinter us to get better deals."

[jj2728]

Originally Posted by Glen

Take the example of qualifying. All you guys that think Max an idiot blithely claim that any fool could arrange it better, and probably that there was nothing wrong with the old way. You forget why they started to tinker with it in the first place, and why they introduced the Parc Fermé rules - the wealthier teams were on the verge of having completely different qualifying cars just for 12 laps on Saturday... different engines (substantially different - not just state of tune), different brakes, transmissions, aerodynamics, set-up - the lot - with a rumour of complete different chassis, with drastically reduced cooling, lighter weight etc. So then we had to have one lap and Parc Fermé/no changes - and then some fools whinge because it ain't like the old days and they want at least one session with car changes after it, and then we get the current hotch-potch.

What I'm saying is that it's all very easy to criticise the FIA, but the extremes that the teams go to are simply absurd and set against that backdrop Max can do nothing other than open himself up for criticism.

i never claimed that any fool could do it better, but leave it to MM and BE and i'll bet they could do it worse, which it seems that they have. besides, qualifying engines, brakes, transmissions et al., had been in use for some years prior to the regs change in 2003, it was nothing more than another short term solution to cut costs and perhaps level the playing field so that ferrari could somehow be reigned in a bit....2 more championships later, well it has'nt worked....and who's idea was it to introduce grooved tyres to cut speeds? that sure did work.. ...and only escalated costs further....

[jj2728]

[QUOTE=Super Tourer]IIn any event none of us (at a fair guess) have ever met, spoken or had any direct contact with MM - so we only know what is reported, or what we hear.
Clearly someone who rises to high office in any organisation is not an idiot by definition. People may not agree with what they say, that doesn't make them an idiot - which was my point.
QUOTE]

i have on a few occasions, but i'll leave it at that...and by definition, no he is not an idiot, but surely acting acting the part as he continually fights with the teams. his continual stop gap measures do nothing more than bring division between the teams and the FIA.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by jj2728

i have on a few occasions, but i'll leave it at that...and by definition, no he is not an idiot, but surely acting acting the part as he continually fights with the teams. his continual stop gap measures do nothing more than bring division between the teams and the FIA.

Hmmm. Not sure what you were trying to say in those disjointed sentences, but I'd love for you to elaborate on your meetings with Max...

[jj2728]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Hmmm. Not sure what you were trying to say in those disjointed sentences, but I'd love for you to elaborate on your meetings with Max...

meetings?...i said i've met and spoken with MM, the first time at the 73 Canadian GP at mosport, the last at the USGP at indy...

[JeremySmith]

Thank you Freud and to everyone else I have learned a great deal by reading this entire thread..This might sound VERY naieve. But does a sport like Nascar or Indycar have so many rule changes that take place each season? F1 Rule changes seem so radical and change like the wind! your thoughts please.

[DavidStHubbins]

Was it not long ago FW was heralding MM as the "best Prime Minister the UK never had"?

[mac]

Probably because it meant he wouldn't have anything to do with F1.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by jj2728

meetings?...i said i've met and spoken with MM, the first time at the 73 Canadian GP at mosport, the last at the USGP at indy...

I believe you. But what did he say that makes you think so lowly of him?

[senna12]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Thank you Freud and to everyone else I have learned a great deal by reading this entire thread..This might sound VERY naieve. But does a sport like Nascar or Indycar have so many rule changes that take place each season? F1 Rule changes seem so radical and change like the wind! your thoughts please.

Actually, Jeremy, I would say that NASCAR and Champ cars have much fewer rule changes each season, and that these rule changes are often a case of fine tuning an existing policy (such as a slightly smaller restrictor plate, or changing the angle of the rear wing), as opposed to the rather substantial and costly changes in recent years in F1, mostly in the name of slowing the cars down.
Which hasn't worked yet. Nothing has. They are already close to last years times, despite the supposed 30% reduction in downforce.

It's been discussed at length on this forum, the sort of practical changes that would achieve the desired effect, but the rich teams do not really want equality, since it is this very richness that gives them the technological edge.

Since the GPWC is as much about life P.B. (post Bernie) as it is about swinging a better deal currently, they should all learn to get along real quick. They need to hire someone to take charge of their little group, and give him the mandate to decide the best route to controlling costs, if that is in fact what they want. At the moment, they can't agree on anything, which makes Max do silly things.

Each side has to take some blame for the situation they now find themselves in.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by senna12

mostly in the name of slowing the cars down.
Which hasn't worked yet. Nothing has. They are already close to last years times, despite the supposed 30% reduction in downforce.

All the changes have slowed the cars down - with no rule changes they'd have been even quicker.

But while the tyre war continues apace, the rule changes will continue to be negated.

[JeremySmith]

Thank you Mr Senna12 that was so eloquently explained, and I am sure that there is much truth in what you say... One more thought, "why even bother" to try and slow F1 cars down? it would seem that the driver is the best judge as to how fast is fast enough.. When we have indy cars that are turning laps at 245MPH I don't see the prob?

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Thank you Freud and to everyone else I have learned a great deal by reading this entire thread..This might sound VERY naieve. But does a sport like Nascar or Indycar have so many rule changes that take place each season? F1 Rule changes seem so radical and change like the wind! your thoughts please.

It's hard to compare those with F1 interms of rules and regs. As the IRL has customer chassis and more customer engines, the pace of development is naturally much slower than it will be with 10 teams designing and developing their own cars, and with seven engine manufacturers pushing the development envelope continually.

Of course the IRL cars get faster, but at a slower rate (if you see what I mean) and as there are fewer types of chassis to control, it's easier for the regulator to change the wing angle or whatever and have a universal effect.

IMO, of course.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

When we have indy cars that are turning laps at 245MPH I don't see the prob?

We don't any more.

They saw the need to slow down too.

[Marbot]

The throttle works both ways!

Bugger all aero.

1500BHP

And nice big slicks

What's that!... It's been done before!... Damn !

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Bugger all aero.

1500BHP

And nice big slicks

What's that!... It's been done before!... Damn !

Name a series where cars have raced in that specification

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Name a series where cars have raced in that specification

Dragsters.

But the turbo cars of the 80s weren't too far away,at least in qually trim.

[Kicking-back]

Ok.

New rule for F1 then.

We only have 2 cars - and they race in a straight line


-------------

The turbo cars of the 80s did have wings too, and did not have nearly that amount of power in racing conditions.

And there wasn't significantly more overtaking either.

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Ok.

New rule for F1 then.

We only have 2 cars - and they race in a straight line

....and only at MIRA.....and Santa Pod of course.