"Fernando, you're faster than Fisi, you can pass him"

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Wrex

V, wise ass. At the time of posting (in Australia) he had just passed him and done the fastest lap. I just assumed Kimi was'nt aware of the plan.

FA did go quicker, but KR immediatlely responded with a quicker time, so i assume he was aware of the plan

[Big-O]

I have no problem with "team orders" like those Renault used to day. Fissi has no change to get the title, while Alonso can !!!!
First people start to talk about Austria 2002, Barri had still the change to take the title that year(I mean, it was only the 6 race that year), there is the difference ...

[Snrub]

I thought it was a little pathetic, BUT
1. It happened towards the start of the race and didn't involve Fisi slowing considerably. In the past Ferrari has made such changes at the end of the race when it was otherwise decided.
2. Alonso was faster than Fisi. Having RB move over for MS when RB smoked MS fair and square is a little different.

I would be curious to know if they broadcasted the "Alonso pass Fisi now" to both drivers or how else they may have orchastrated it. Keep in mind that starting Fisi on more fuel than Alonso makes it so that he is more likely to qualify behind Alonso and/or slightly compromise his stratagy. Thus Fisi's race is compromised. It clearly hasn't happened every race, but I think it may have this time.

[JeremySmith]

Having heard that radio transmission again between race engineer and Alonso,(of course we did not *hear* pit to Fisi) I don't really understand why he said anything to Fernando in the first place? If Fernando was faster then overtake Fisi plain and simple, why issue a team order in the first place?

[BootsOntheSide]

I think Gt_R has confused two seperate races - Eddie moved over for Michael due to myserious 'brake problems' (which appeared to be fine as soon as Michael was paast), while in France 1999 Eddie was not allowed to pass an ailing Michael, even though it cost him a chance of also passing Ralf to finish 4th (ultimately costing Eddie the title). In any case, I wouldn't class today as badly as Austria, as it didn't definitely decide the outcome of the race, due to being at such an early stage, and was in a situation where Giancarlo's title hopes were fully gone, and wher Alonso appeared to be the faster driver (and he certainly was over the course of the race).

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I would be curious to know if they broadcasted the "Alonso pass Fisi now" to both drivers or how else they may have orchastrated it.

i guess it is possible that the only team orders from renault were that each driver shouldn't take a run at the other and then the order to alonso was to contermand the original order and let him know he had permission to take the chance. but as you say without hearning what they said to fisi we cant know for sure.

but as for team orders in general: teammates help each other constantly from hours of practice to set up help during the practice sessions, so why then is it suddenly wrong to help each other out in a race? IMO its no different than teamates not challenging each other in order to secure the most points possible for their team. teammates helpng each other out is simple a part of team competition.

[Jordi]

It's a crap rule, to be honest. Either it's enforced to the last consequences, or you just delete it from the rulebook.

[brands]

Originally Posted by Menelaos

He was on lower fuel he didn't need to waste any time. The same thing happened with JPM and Raikkonen three weeks ago.

Alonso stopped on lap 13, Fisi on lap 14, hardly a great fuel difference.....however in Hungary Kimi stopped on lap 11 to JPM's lap 22.

The McLaren situation is commom sense, Renault's is team orders by the back door.

[Gt_R]

Boots. I was using the example of Irvine made to give way to MS and claim that EI had "brake problems" to make you see the similarity between that and Renault's action. This is to facilitate you grasping the idea as only Ferrari seem to help you see "wrongness". That team see fit to cook some screwed story to disguise team orders.

The point is not regarding team orders, as Wrex, and to some extent Jordi point out. We have done to death the right and wrongs, and none of us are fans of team orders, though we don't run the team.

The issue is, if we want team orders. Fine. Allow it. If teams want to practice team orders. Fine. Say it.

Hypocritical acts like what we see from Renault, worsen by the fact that just days ago, Flavio and Alonso both issuing statements on how they won't practice or won't like having team orders, to the extent of criticising another team for doing it.... then use it in Turkey AND bluff that its a real overtaking... that's a bit thick.

I actually understand and support the action of issuing order as i see no point Alonso being risked fighting with JPM. Fisichella could assist him and should. What i'm saying, and that of Wrex i believe, is that there's no need to put a show up and act to be morally above all else.

Or do i need to repeat myself?

[Javi]

Silly rule. Team orders will always exist and it´s stupid to pretend they are not used. What we need is real competition between different teams and no one will remember team orders. If in austria 2002 barrichello and schumacher had been followed at 0.5 sec by other car things would have been different, at least not as "apparently"

[browney]

I don't really have a problem with team orders and what Renault said over the radio made the whole thing look silly.

Honestly though, for those who don't like team orders - You can't tell me that what Renault did is any different to what Ferrari have done with Shumacher and Rubens. Sometimes it seems like some people around here have a massive double standard (And I'm not a Ferrari fan either).

[Jordi]

There is competition between different teams this year, Javi. In 2002 Ferrari was miles ahead of the rest, this year McLaren and Renault are quite paired.

[Valve Bounce]

Maybe there was more to this strategy than meets your eye. At the time, JPM was behind the two Renaults and he was starting to catch them. Now if Fernando passed Fisi, and Fisi was able to slow JPM up so that Alonso would be able to remain in second spot and come second to Kimi, he would only have lost two points in this race. And with 6 races to score points including this one, there was every chance that Alonso would beat Kimi for the title with a little help from his friend.

However, if Alonso remained behind Fisi and JPM then managed to pass Fernando, that would have cost Fernando 5 points, which would mean that the title was still attainable by Kimi even if Alonso ws able to tail the two McLarens for the rest of the season.

For those who are trying to equate this to Austria, well you're either myopic in vision or you're trying to justify what most of us thought was a rather shameful event in F1. And if your thinking is that the two events are parallel, why not run a poll here to see whether you're correct in your premiss.

[garcon]

The existence of this stupid bloody no team orders rule proves one thing to me above everything else. The vast majority of fans - and all the noisiest ones - haven't the faintest clue what they're shouting about, so any rule made simply to appease them (as this was) is doomed to failure. Formula 1 is and always has been a team sport. Period.

I believe the Renault team felt they had to tell Alonso to pass Fisi rather than simply asking Fisi to let him by because of this no team orders rule. Admittedly that's a different interpretation than the one BAR had when they told Button to let Sato through if he could do so without losing time. But that's just another reason to scrap the rule altogether - there seems to be some confusion down the pitlane as to what it covers.

[Javi]

Sure this year´s been good, Jordi, and that´s why i guess this episode will not become any more than a forum thread, (but there´s always a Max Mosley to prove me wrong).
I´ve never seen (thanks to the radio) team orders as clearly as this one (ferrari´s gaffe apart), but no one will do anything. McLaren won the race as deserved and the rest of the teams were so far away from the renaults to the team orders make any difference.
I don´t remember any team which has been punished for issuing team orders, and we all know they exist. Why the rule???

[N I Tram]

If it's always been a team sport, why is the Driver's Championship 8 years older than the Constructors Championship? Although this wasn't a blatant result change for selfish reasons in the way Austria was, it was very badly handled, and not inflicting some form of financial penalty on Renault would be an insult, especially due to the hypocricial aspect.

[Peter Mallett]

I'm a bit confused by this thread. (No change there then). But did they say "you're faster than Kimi" or did they say "you're faster than Fisi?".

[garcon]

Fisi... I'll change it.

[Splatz the Cow]

VB, where the bejeebers did you come from? I haven't seen you in ages!

Nice to see youse again and good post too.

I had exactly the same impression of the situation as you outline in your post just above.




About the Rascally Renault Radio Ruse:

In fact I wasn't surprised at all, and had no bad feeling about it whatsoever.

I noticed how Alonso followed Fisichella for a short while and then was given the go ahead to move past.

I thought the way Renault worded the phrase was a bit annoying, because it was not a true representation of the situation.

*It was a true statement - Alonso was noticeably faster, but that doesn't mean you just get let through. It might be true at the hire karts with your mates, and the guy working there says: keep to the left on the straights to let the faster driver through....

But Alonso himself showed he was slower than M.Schumacher (Imola 2005 IIRC ?) yet was able to keep the faster Ferrari behind him for ten laps.

So back to my point, what Renault said was true, but they left out some critical statement, like;

"Fernando you're faster than Giancarlo, if you attempt to overtake him, keep it clean."

or

"Fernando you're faster than Giancarlo, go to fuel setting 3 and save your fuel and tyres until the next pitstop, will bring in Giancarlo first, you'll have about three laps extra in the clear, okay."

or

"Fernando you're faster than Giancarlo, he's going to let you through on the next straight."

So my point actually is, it is what they didn't say, as they somtimes do, that showed they were so clearly fudging the situation.

It was just unnecessary.

But I agree there is nothing wrong with it at this stage of the season.

Unlike Nick and Mark trying to overtake each other all the time, which is often messy.



And what was with Buttton and Sato???

Why wouldn't Button let Sato through when they weighed about 100Kg different!! Button was blocking the line so that Sato couldn't make a clean pass, even though they are on different fuel strategies. Great teamwork guys!
"Button-Against-the-World" syndrome again, I think.

Anyways, good thread, nice read, gotta go.

Cheers,
Splatz.

[garcon]

Disagree on the Button/Sato one, Splatz. Button was specifically told, "Let Sato through if you can do so without losing time." As Brundle said, that's an invitation to do... precisely nothing. Except that if Sato has a go, let him. Jenson still needed to keep the pace up himself to maintain any chance of 4th, so why should he lose even a second letting his lighter (but further back) teammate through?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by garcon

Fisi... I'll change it.

Ah.

Well, he was faster what's the problem?

[bathurst77]

Get over it.

I have no problem with "team orders", motor sport is team sport. Liek foot ball cricket baseball etc etc..

No body screams when a cricket team "lets a certain batter score the winning runs" or make his century before declaring, or something when they winning easy.
nobody cries when a fooball team are winning easy and are about to score and purposely flicks the ball to one bloke so he can get score for his record,
Whats the difference?

Most days you just score as best you can, some days you have the choice, it proves your control.

f1 is a team sport with 2 cars and drivers and a heap of support people per team.

IN all team sports the team wins and teh winning team can decide who actually "scores teh point" on the day.

[Valve Bounce]

Nice to see you too!! I've been around - mostly in threads that affect the Ant.

Oh Yes, M Garcon!! Could you please change your to you're in the title of this thread. And while you're at it, une tasse de bier pour moi, s'il vous plait!!

[browney]

The rule is really redunant though if this is what will happen (well, I think it is silly anyway). Maybee they willl have code-phrases like 'Fisi, could you adjust the xylophone for us' next.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Oh Yes, M Garcon!! Could you please change your to you're in the title of this thread. And while you're at it, une tasse de bier pour moi, s'il vous plait!!

Hmmm. Beer's in the fridge, help yourself, and get me a cold one while you're there.

As for the illiterate punk who started this thread...