Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Interesting how the Michelin stickers under the dive planes are the very old school M-stickers not in use anymore, and how all the tires have only one Michelin sticker at 12 o'clock while the opposite one which should be at 6 o'clock is missing...

The logos under the diveplanes look exactly like the ones the R18 had at Bahrain to me. And not all Michelin tires have both logos - I just saw a picture of an AF Corse Ferrari that had both on the rear and only one on the front wheels.

Are you suggesting it's photoshopped? I suppose it's possible, but I think it looks like a studio shot of the real car with the background photoshopped in.

[FxL]

Originally Posted by deltawing

(as a side note, I don't think ACO is going to let them run with red lights in the front of the car).

As CTD already pointed out, there's nothing new regarding the red lights.

http://fourtitude.com/wp-content/upl...01-960x480.jpg

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

Okay, so as I posted on Wikipedia:

Audi updated the R18 e-tron quattro for the 2014 Le Mans Prototype rules. Changes include a revised V6 TDI engine, upgrades to the flywheel accumulator system and an electric turbocharger run using an exhaust heat recovery system. The aerodynamics have been heavily revised in accordance with the new rules: the width is reduced by 10 cm, the height is increased by 20 mm and there is a new set of front wings. However, the exhaust-blown diffuser on the 2013 model has been banned and removed. The safety monocoque has been strengthened with additional fabric. Wheel tethers and extra crash structures are also added to the car. Finally, there are numerous smaller upgrades to vision and ergonomics to improve drivability

You edited that piece on wikipedia (R18 e-tron quattro (2014)) ?

its in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R...e-tron_quattro ( your link points only to flywheel KERS)

I don't know, but you make it sound like the all its a single integrated system, including turbo charging compounding (electric)

According to this https://www.audi-motorsport.info/v2/...single/id/8176 first pointed by Creep89 http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=5130

-A further developed V6 TDI mid-engine powers the rear wheels

-e-tron quattro hybrid system at the front axle (ERS-K – Energy Recovery System Kinetic, a system to store kinetic energy)

-Optimized flywheel energy storage system

-Hybrid system with an electric turbocharger in the internal combustion engine (ERS-H

– Energy Recovery System Heat, a system that stores energy converted from heat)
(i think there is a mistake here, this last 2 sentences should be separated)


I think ERS is now 3 separated systems. KERS is obviously directly connected to the flywheel (as was), and it deals with "recuperative breaking" from the front wheels MGU.

The turbocharger electric compound might be similar to Renault F1 (and probably many others) http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...0621.html#more ... and essentially recuperates energy by eliminating the need for a "waste gate" in the exhaust system, that is, the electric MGU connected to the exhaust turbine in *generation mode* provides parasitic torque, so no need to deviated exhaust flow to control the turbine RPM and so charging pressure. In *motor mode* it functions like a "supercharger" by electric means, almost instantaneously boosting turbine RPM and pressure after slow (slower) corners.

Energy recovered from heat can only mean Thermoelectric Effects... at least i think so... that is why i think is a mistake in that press release. Of course "pressure" is directly proportional to "temperature" (heat), but the direct driver of the electric turbo generator is "pressure flow", and this has not only to do with temperature but also with the "velocity" of the escaping gases (can have less temperature yet more velocity, and so pressure, if engineered that way).

Thermoelectric elements, they could be in the housing of the exhaust turbine, usually very hot, and necessitating "cooling", the necessary conditions for thermoelectric effects -> one surface very hot, other cooled;.. or they could be in the particulate filters and or NOx catalytic converters, if Audi employs any of those ( at least Peugeot did had 2 particulate filters FAP ).

In the end all this leads to suspect Audi did an "efficiency" downsizing of the engine by augmenting the "turbo" factor ( as is the trend in F1, and has many constructors do for street performance cars)... perhaps 3 to 3.3 L, and a single turbo no matter the dual final exhaust exits ( electric demands it, so no bi-turbo) ... augmented in compensation by the "supercharging" effect of the electric turbo, and by having all engine ancillary by electric means ( can provide quite fuel efficiency and additional motive power since almost none of it is used to move ancillary), a thermoelectric generator would be essential for this, which would be like a permanent generator, since the exhaust remains quite hot during a race after warm up... and only that common rail pump consumes 10HP or more (more!)...

*If* there are 3 ERS modes... then the comments of the most complex car ever are well deserved.

[Victor_RO]

hcl123, the regulations only allow two separate hybrid systems.

[CyberMotor]

One minor edit, instead of "recuperative breaking" from the front wheels MGU, you might want to say, "recuperative braking" from the front wheels MGU.

I'm sure that Audi would rather have recuperative braking rather than breaking! Recuperative breaking could get expensive quickly.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Damn that's a good looking car

[JoestForEver]

IMO the electric turbo works together with the thermalelectric system. But I do remember that somewhere in the press release mentioned that the energy of ERS-H can be used in the rear axle or the front axle according to strategy. That would be interesting.

[FxL]

@hcl

Apart from the fact that there are only two seperate types of energy recovery allowed, the term "ERS-H(eat)" is misleading if I'm not wrong. ERS-H is just the eletric turbo thing you mentioned above. What drives the turbo (and could get wasted if you don't use it) is thermal energy, that's the reason for the naming.

Imho there won't be any thermoeletric elements or stuff like that.. I'm not an engineer, but as far as I know, the efficiency of such elements is very low.
It's just ERS-K (aka KERS) and ERS-H, similar to what they will have in their F1 cars next season.

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

IMO the electric turbo works together with the thermalelectric system. But I do remember that somewhere in the press release mentioned that the energy of ERS-H can be used in the rear axle or the front axle according to strategy. That would be interesting.

The flywheel system is still only mounted to the front wheels. Thus, the ERS-H can be used on either the front axle or on the electric turbocharger.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Are you suggesting it's photoshopped? I suppose it's possible, but I think it looks like a studio shot of the real car with the background photoshopped in.

There is something weird. There are pieces you find on the actual car, which are missing in these shots. Maybe this is just another one they assembled for the shooting. The pictures are very dark, but if you brighten them a lot, you see these are stickers directly on the carbon, there is no wrap, and I bet they are not going to race that way. The question is, would the wrap be black or this was just a quick "sticker placement studies" model...... but hey, good things come to those who wait.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

hcl123, the regulations only allow two separate hybrid systems.

As i read it they only allow 2 MGU (motor/generator units).

The energy recuperation methods are free, and the amount of energy recuperated also is free with no limits.. only the "release" is monitored and restricted <2 to <8 MJ/Lap. (like the fuel flows).

And *obvious* this "release" as only to do with directly motoring the vehicle... all other energy recuperated can be used freely if not directly motoring the vehicle. Running the ancillary by electric means is directly mentioned in the "FINAL" draft as allowed.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

One minor edit, instead of "recuperative breaking" from the front wheels MGU, you might want to say, "recuperative braking" from the front wheels MGU.

I'm sure that Audi would rather have recuperative braking rather than breaking! Recuperative breaking could get expensive quickly.

Yeah! right... sorry about that. A car that "breaks" surely is not of much use lol

[TF110]

The previous version that ran at LeMans this year was the "long-tail", this looks like the "long-nose"

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

IMO the electric turbo works together with the thermalelectric system. But I do remember that somewhere in the press release mentioned that the energy of ERS-H can be used in the rear axle or the front axle according to strategy. That would be interesting.

That is interesting.

Surely thermoelectric elements can be part of that ERS-H... but that mention of "using it in the rear axle" is what is interesting... meaning that electric motor/generator is not only connected to the exhaust turbine shaft but must also be connected to the crankshaft drive train shaft ( or gearbox).

Otherwise how could they use the ERS-H it in the rear axle ? .. the turbine shaft does not provide any motive power to any axle only engine intake pressure.

Obviously using the rear MGU (ERS-H) in front only by transfer of electric power.

If that is true Audi could have gone to <6MJ/Lap... i don't think they will go to the top 8 MJ (OTOH Toyota might), is not beneficial for diesel in current rules attending fuel flows.

OTOH it provides even more "braking" (lol) power (this MGU on rear) a point where Audi loses for Toyota... clearly... Toyota has the shortest braking distances of all LMP1s, a good advantage with circuits with lots of slow corners (or wet conditions) .. and so Audi remain at 4MJ/Lap level and don't have to downsize engine too much(just a little).

[FxL]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

But I do remember that somewhere in the press release mentioned that the energy of ERS-H can be used in the rear axle or the front axle according to strategy. That would be interesting.

They say the energy of ERS-H can go to the front axle or back to the electric turbo charger, the rear axle is only powered by the V6 and does not benefit from energy recovery (ok, it does of course because of the electric turbo, but there is no connection between the MGU and the rear axle). The MGU at the turbo is the only energy source for ERS-H.

ERS-H (as Audi interprets it) is just the electric turbo, no more, no less

To sum it up:

• Diesel V6
• ERS-K: front axle (MGU -> flywheel)
• ERS-H: electric turbo (MGU -> flywheel), energy can go to the turbo itself or to the front axle

Originally Posted by hcl123

-Hybrid system with an electric turbocharger in the internal combustion engine (ERS-H

– Energy Recovery System Heat, a system that stores energy converted from heat)
(i think there is a mistake here, this last 2 sentences should be separated)

It's one sentence since it describes one and the same

[CyberMotor]

Where I have my questions is the area of the energy recovery from the heat (exhaust). I know that thermocouples work on the principle of temperature differentials and can generate electricity for measurements, but can the thermocouple principle be used to generate enough electricity to be useful in driving the electric turbo? If this is not the principle being used, what is?

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Where I have my questions is the area of the energy recovery from the heat (exhaust). I know that thermocouples work on the principle of temperature differentials and can generate electricity for measurements, but can the thermocouple principle be used to generate enough electricity to be useful in driving the electric turbo? If this is not the principle being used, what is?

By current developments in thernoelectric materials you could even recharge a common 12V battery by the exhaust heat and not from an alternator.

@ FML

Yes i tend to believe it will be very similar to the Renault F1 scheme ( http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013...0621.html#more )... no thermoelectric recuperation... and no "mechanical" linkage with the rear axle what so ever (Audi case for the MGU-K, only in front) .

Yet none of this invalidates the possibility of *ALL* electric ancillary (beefed up alternator with an energy store)... though i put not much faith in it either.

(all that perhaps in future )

[MyNameIsNigel]

Okay, we now know for sure that the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro is equipped - as expected - with two ERSA (Energy Recovery System Assemblies), which is the maximum number of ERSA allowed by the rules (cf. Article 5.2.1). This includes a first ERSA, namely an ERS-K (or "KERS") recovering energy upon braking and comprising one MGU linked to the front axle, and a second ERSA, namely an ERS-H recovering energy from the exhaust gases and including an electric turbocharger. Both ERSA feed electric energy to the flywheel energy storage system.

For the sake of completeness, the official press release states the following:

In addition to the internal combustion engine, the power train concept, for the first time, features the integration of two hybrid systems. As in the past, a Motor-Generator-Unit (MGU), during braking events, recovers kinetic energy at the front axle, which flows into a flywheel energy storage system. For the first time, the turbocharger of the internal combustion engine is linked to an electrical machine, which makes it possible to convert the thermal energy of the exhaust gas flow into electric energy – for instance when the boost pressure limit has been reached. This energy also flows into the flywheel energy storage system. When the car accelerates, the stored energy can either flow back to the MGU at the front axle or to the innovative electric turbocharger, depending on the operating strategy.

This "innovative electric turbocharger", or rather the "electrical machine" linked to the turbocharger, is not to be assimilated to a MGU as defined by the rules as it is not "mechanically linked to one of the drive trains". In effect, the turbocharger is part of the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the ICE is not to be considered as a MGU (see Articles 1.17 and 1.21).

The rules merely provide that the maximum amount of energy that can be released per lap (i.e. 2MJ, 4MJ, 6MJ or 8MJ depending on the option) is measured/counted only through the MGU(s) (see Articles 5.2.3 and 5.2.4). In other words, the rules only limit the amount of energy released through the MGU(s). In Audi's case, that only applies to the energy released through the single MGU on the front axle.

In Audi's case, that further means that the energy that may be released through the electric turbocharger (presumably for the purpose of reducing or eliminating turbo-lag) is not as such limited. The only limit is the amount of energy that can be recovered by the combined operation of the two ERSA and the energy storage capacity of the flywheel system.

I now wonder which energy option Audi will opt for. The ERS-K alone should be sufficient to recover at least 4MJ at LM, as this basically reflects what 2013 hybrid cars were already capable of achieving. How much additional energy can the ERS-H recover ? That's the question. I suspect that Audi will probably opt for the 4MJ or 6MJ option as I am guessing that the ERS-H alone cannot recover similar amounts of energy as the ERS-K. Audi will maybe show me wrong though.

[Mechanic Z]

The force is strong with this one!

Great looking car, really like this photo of it.
Definitely agree with the general consensus, race it in this livery, Audi!!!!!!

The exhaust 'Thermal Hybrid' system should be really cool if they can make it work.

[hcl123]

yes the car looks good, pity now we'll never know the real displacement ... doubt Audi divulges it... neither the real top turbo pressure below the max 4 bar allowed.

It could give a better technical picture. Yet since there is electric turbo compounding with recuperation doubt the top effective pressure will be superior to 3 bar... 2013 was 2.5bar... leading perhaps to a little downsizing.

[ A V6 that doesn't pass the 5K RPM doesn't make much above 4 bar, so to have "something" to recuperate it will lower ]

[FxL]

@chl123

Yes, that's true. I just wanted to express that "ERS-Heat" is quite a general term and could mislead to the assumption that there must be some kind of thermoeletric technology involved. This is of course something the automotive industry has an eye on and there is research in the progress in order to support or replace alternators. But for 2014, the combination of turbo and e-machine is imo the only "thermo element" (in a metaphorical sense of course) used by the manufacturers, but it would be okay for me if I was totally wrong about it .
We'll see what the future holds, using thermal energy could play a key role at some point.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Okay, we now know for sure that the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro is equipped - as expected - with two ERSA (Energy Recovery System Assemblies), which is the maximum number of ERSA allowed by the rules (cf. Article 5.2.1). This includes a first ERSA, namely an ERS-K (or "KERS") recovering energy upon braking and comprising one MGU linked to the front axle, and a second ERSA, namely an ERS-H recovering energy from the exhaust gases and including an electric turbocharger. Both ERSA feed electric energy to the flywheel energy storage system.

For the sake of completeness, the official press release states the following:


This "innovative electric turbocharger", or rather the "electrical machine" linked to the turbocharger, is not to be assimilated to a MGU as defined by the rules as it is not "mechanically linked to one of the drive trains". In effect, the turbocharger is part of the internal combustion engine (ICE) and the ICE is not to be considered as a MGU (see Articles 1.17 and 1.21).

The rules merely provide that the maximum amount of energy that can be released per lap (i.e. 2MJ, 4MJ, 6MJ or 8MJ depending on the option) is measured/counted only through the MGU(s) (see Articles 5.2.3 and 5.2.4). In other words, the rules only limit the amount of energy released through the MGU(s). In Audi's case, that only applies to the energy released through the single MGU on the front axle.

In Audi's case, that further means that the energy that may be released through the electric turbocharger (presumably for the purpose of reducing or eliminating turbo-lag) is not as such limited. The only limit is the amount of energy that can be recovered by the combined operation of the two ERSA and the energy storage capacity of the flywheel system.

I now wonder which energy option Audi will opt for. The ERS-K alone should be sufficient to recover at least 4MJ at LM, as this basically reflects what 2013 hybrid cars were already capable of achieving. How much additional energy can the ERS-H recover ? That's the question. I suspect that Audi will probably opt for the 4MJ or 6MJ option as I am guessing that the ERS-H alone cannot recover similar amounts of energy as the ERS-K. Audi will maybe show me wrong though.

Thanks for the analysis. Insightful. But maybe 4MJ isn't that much energy(1.1kwh equivalent?), so it's not that difficult to harness from the exhaust. The question is that the energy recovery cap of 8MJ is the amount stored in the flywheel/battery/whatever or the energy that can be recovered in total. If it's the former answer, does this mean that Audi can use as much of energy as possible to power the turbo as long as MGU and pressure value permits, regardless of 8MJ cap? A bit off topic but can the thermal system on Porsche functions the same way?

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I now wonder which energy option Audi will opt for. The ERS-K alone should be sufficient to recover at least 4MJ at LM, as this basically reflects what 2013 hybrid cars were already capable of achieving. How much additional energy can the ERS-H recover ? That's the question. I suspect that Audi will probably opt for the 4MJ or 6MJ option as I am guessing that the ERS-H alone cannot recover similar amounts of energy as the ERS-K. Audi will maybe show me wrong though.

I tend to believe the 4MJ... last year they had to tweak the flywheel to really have the possibility of the 3.6MJ/Lap allowed, recuperative braking doesn't provide much more than that, now is tweaked again and the slack up to 4MJ/Lap will be provided by the turbo ERSA.

I tend to believe Toyota "capacitors" is still much better... full electric power just after slow(slower corners)... the Audi flywheel system for the same is not restricted to 120Kmh anymore but can't have the same instantaneous power(and is much harder to control).

[CyberMotor]

I'm still not clear on how the heat harvesting and storage is occurring. I think that once it is harvested and stored, the expenditure of the energy through either the electric turbo or the electric motors is clear, its just how the heat is being converted into electricity is unclear in my mind.

Is it clearer in your mind? I may be a little slow here in interpreting the statements and the technology and hoping for clarification.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Thanks for the analysis. Insightful. But maybe 4MJ isn't that much energy(1.1kwh equivalent?), so it's not that difficult to harness from the exhaust. The question is that the energy recovery cap of 8MJ is the amount stored in the flywheel/battery/whatever or the energy that can be recovered in total. If it's the former answer, does this mean that Audi can use as much of energy as possible to power the turbo as long as MGU and pressure value permits, regardless of 8MJ cap? A bit off topic but can the thermal system on Porsche functions the same way?

The rules neither limit the amount of energy that can be stored in the energy storage system, nor the amount of energy that can be recovered (i.e. harvested) by the ERSA(s). The only limit is the amount of energy that is in effect released through the MGU(s). "Excess energy", as long as such excess exists, can be used freely to power ancillaries, like the electric turbocharger for the purpose of (I am assuming) reducing or eliminating turbo-lag.

As for Porsche's ERS-H, I would expect that it follows a similar avenue as Audi's and that it also involves some sort of electrical machine coupled to the engine's turbocharger. That looks very much as being a solution which is road car relevant and would therefore be entirely consistent with Audi's and Porsche's approach.