Audi LMP1 Discussion

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

I'm still not clear on how the heat harvesting and storage is occurring. I think that once it is harvested and stored, the expenditure of the energy through either the electric turbo or the electric motors is clear, "its just how the heat is being converted into electricity is unclear in my mind."

It isn't. No "heat" is directly converted to electricity, for that there would have to be a thermoelectric coupling, which is not the case i think (like with that link of Renault F1, that also talks about "heat" recuperation)

The heat that is recuperated is in the exhaust flow that drives (turns around) a turbine in the turbo system... and this turbine shaft is connected and so makes also turn around an electric MGU, that so generates the electricity.

"Heat" seems more of one of those "marketing" things... in reality is more kinetic than anything else (edt)

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

I'm still not clear on how the heat harvesting and storage is occurring. I think that once it is harvested and stored, the expenditure of the energy through either the electric turbo or the electric motors is clear, its just how the heat is being converted into electricity is unclear in my mind.

Is it clearer in your mind? I may be a little slow here in interpreting the statements and the technology and hoping for clarification.

As this has already been commented, "heat" or "thermal energy" are probably somewhat misleading expressions as far as the operation of the "ERS-H" is concerned. I would rather talk about "exhaust gas energy harvesting" which would involve conversion of the flow of exhaust gases into electric energy by means of a turbine driving an electrical machine.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by hcl123

It isn't. No "heat" i directly converted to electricity, for that there would have to be a thermoelectric coupling, which is not the case i think (like with that link of Renault F1, that also talks about "heat" recuperation)
The heat that is recuperated is in the exhaust flow that drives (turns around) a turbine in the turbo system... and this turbine shaft is connected and so makes also turn around an electric MGU, that so generates the electricity.

"Heat" seems more of one of those "marketing" things... in reality is more kinetic than anything else

Agree. I would rather refrain from referring to a "MGU" in this particular context as it's referred to in the rules as being a motor-generator unit that is mechanically linked to one of the drive trains. It's not "innocent" I believe that Audi's press release refers to an "electrical machine" linked to the turbocharger when it talks about the "innovative electric turbocharger".

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

As for Porsche's ERS-H, I would expect that it follows a similar avenue as Audi's and that it also involves some sort of electrical machine coupled to the engine's turbocharger. That looks very much as being a solution which is road car relevant and would therefore be entirely consistent with Audi's and Porsche's approach.

Mulsanne's corner was adventing that Porsche motor would be only ~2L heavily turbocharged ( possibly a V4 petrol)... perhaps up to the 4bar... so very little if any left to recuperate from the turbo system like in Audi case.

The best solution would be to have TIGERS , coupled with electric supercharging, coupled to alternator, coupled to exhaust turbine... like this that has 2 small electric motor/generators coupled to a compressor turbine by an innovative transmission coupling

http://www.integralp.com/technologie...s/SuperGen.htm



Its mechanically driven also besides electric, that is, its connected to the drive train engine shaft output, and so can provide direct electric "motorization" like any other MGU hybrid... but also drives the compressor turbine so by mechanical + electric (lag free compounding) means... function a lot of time as an alternator also... and to specially aid in this last function it could have another of those transmission couplings and an exhaust turbine on the opposite side of the compressor ... a real advanced "AIO - all-in-one" lol

But for this Hybrid should be free... no restrictions... after all, all energy comes from the fuel, fuel flow metrics and restrictions would suffice.

[ oops! i think they already have something similar lol http://www.integralp.com/technologie...perGen_TSG.htm ]

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

As this has already been commented, "heat" or "thermal energy" are probably somewhat misleading expressions as far as the operation of the "ERS-H" is concerned. I would rather talk about "exhaust gas energy harvesting" which would involve conversion of the flow of exhaust gases into electric energy by means of a turbine driving an electrical machine.

OK, so usually, the exhaust pressure is being used in a compressive nature to drive a turbo which forces air into the cylinder. Instead, in this model, the exhaust pressures are being used to drive a turbine which generates electricity that can be later used to drive an electric turbo that increases cylinder pressure when RPMs are not present to drive the turbo. Is this the principle?

I'm a programmer where everything must be either a 1 or a 0 so I must keep asking questions until things are either one or the other. Thanks for your patience!

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Agree. I would rather refrain from referring to a "MGU" in this particular context as it's referred to in the rules as being a motor-generator unit that is mechanically linked to one of the drive trains. It's not "innocent" I believe that Audi's press release refers to an "electrical machine" linked to the turbocharger when it talks about the "innovative electric turbocharger".

Yet that "electric machine" has the Motor + Generator functions, only its not connected to any drive train, only the turbo charging system.

We could say Audi system is very similar to this.. it can give better in-site.

http://www.integralp.com/technologie...perGen_EMT.htm

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

OK, so usually, the exhaust pressure is being used in a compressive nature to drive a turbo which forces air into the cylinder. Instead, in this model, the exhaust pressures are being used to drive a turbine which generates electricity that can be later used to drive an electric turbo that increases cylinder pressure when RPMs are not present to drive the turbo. Is this the principle?

I'm a programmer where everything must be either a 1 or a 0 so I must keep asking questions until things are either one or the other. Thanks for your patience!

Is both at the same time... it can be lots of times... that is, generate intake pressure and electricity ( here the parasitic torque of the electric motor in generator mode replaces the wastegate valve that deviates exhaust flow from the turbo to control max pressures) * (generator mode)*...


... as well generate intake pressure + motor turbine shaft ( more pressure, usually from low turbo RPM) *( motor mode)*

[ essentially is a normal turbo charging system + electric motor/generator ... and no wastegate... and it could even have a clutch of some kind, and then there is nothing different from what we know]

[Beetle]

Taking a much-needed break from the technical prattle...

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

... this car looks GREAT! I think I speak for everyone when I say that Audi needs to race this exact livery next year. Although I could have gone for a little less red in the headlights -- looks a bit like a Hot Wheels car but the benefits strongly outweigh the little eccentricities that we'll all probably get used to.

Very sexy indeed...

[TF110]

The roof looks less high than on the porsche. No bubble and a seemingly lower airbox.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Could it be an illusion? To me it looks like the the nose sweeps back a lot higher to the window, so the window looks smaller and creates a look of a lower roof.i think if the rake of the nose wasn't as steep the window would be bigger and the roof would look higher.

I thought audis didn't use waste gates with the vgt turbo? Which makes me think, with the new motor generator turbo units will the variable geometry vanes be needed? The motor could be used to spool up turbo when needed instead of using vgt vanes to speed up the turbine.

[HR186S]

I must be the only one that doesn't like the livery. It looks boring and uninspired. I really hope they don't keep it. You could do so much more with black and red.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

The roof looks less high than on the porsche. No bubble and a seemingly lower airbox.

The cockpit "roofline" on the 2014 Audi R18 also appears to be flatter and longer than that of the Porsche LMP1 it would seem:


The cockpit "roofline" of the 2014 Porsche LMP1 is definitely curvier:

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

I thought audis didn't use waste gates with the vgt turbo? Which makes me think, with the new motor generator turbo units will the variable geometry vanes be needed? The motor could be used to spool up turbo when needed instead of using vgt vanes to speed up the turbine.

VGTs do not require a wastegate AFAIK. Besides, I believe that we can safely assume that the VGT previously used by Audi has now been discarded in favour of the "innovative" electric turbocharger.

[knighty]

my suspicion is that for the "heat system" Audi would be using one of the small motor-generator units that the likes of bosch will be offering the F1 teams for the same job, so really an off-the shelf solution for anti-lag eradication, and to generate a bit of power when steady state, really the latter is almost a meaningless contribution, but its great for marketing BS....... but the anti-lag will be a huge contribution to drivability and fuel economy (5-10%), hence last season Audi tried to implement their air-reservoir system, but the ACO said no.

the small "heat" motor-generator will be connected to the compressor side of the turbocharger via a fancy clutch, either magnetic or something very trick, on an F1 application the small motor-generator lies between the V of the engine, with the turbo above the bell-housing........ which on Audis engine will be impossible as the turbo currently sits slap in the middle of the V due to the inward direction exhaust ports.....my suspicion is the little "heat" motor-generator unit will sit above the front of the engine right up against the fuel-tank bulkhead, so almost fully hidden under the air-scoop duct......as the turbo exhaust already points rearwards and routes straight back out of the car.

Really I think Porsche will have the same system for their turbo eventually, they will be stupid not to on the basis that you get a 10 fold increase of electrical power on the input side, versus mechanical power output at the wheels.......electronic boosting is highly efficient for such a small lightweight system.

[Brownj]

Motorsport.com has a nice gallery of close ups and higher res shots here:
http://www.motorsport.com/wec/photos...allery/?r=7737

[chernaudi]

And as if we need to be reminded on what will happen on the 18th (why do I think that it's not a coincidence that Audi chose that date?):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk0H99VzfJs

[CyberMotor]

The evolving Audi, R15, R18 and R18+...

[JoestForEver]

The shots from Motorsport.com make me notice that it's still a short tail version R18. Why are they willing to not make full use of permitted rear diffuser length? Or are they worrying about tire issues even in the new R18

[Breitling24]

New watch sponsor.

[MyNameIsNigel]

An interesting side view of the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro which illustrates the distinctively different cockpit shape compared to last year's car:

(source: "Studio footage of the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro")

[alless]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

An interesting side view of the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro which illustrates the distinctively different cockpit shape compared to last year's car:

(source: "Studio footage of the 2014 Audi R18 e-tron quattro")

I have to say that from the side this car doesnt look so good as on other pics.
Very visible big cockpit and really high rear wing.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by alless

I have to say that from the side this car doesnt look so good as on other pics.
Very visible big cockpit and really high rear wing.

You have to blame the new rules for that cockpit shape it would seem. Now, Porsche have followed a somewhat different route with their "bump" on top of the cockpit which is probably more pleasing to the eye (that's a matter of taste I guess).

I wonder which solution is the most efficient aero-wise, a "smooth" cockpit shape like that of the Audi or the "bumpy" one as opted by Porsche ?

[MyNameIsNigel]

An additional interesting detail on the right rear fender of the Audi R18:


Is that the new location of the air-jack connector ? That's what I am led to suspect as the shots of the rear of the car published by Autosport do not appear to show any air-jack connector where it used to be located, i.e. at the back of the car.

[MyNameIsNigel]

And this cover panel I guess is hiding the fuel-flow meters mandated by the new rules and which must be located within the survival cell as well as be accessible from the outside:

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I wonder which solution is the most efficient aero-wise, a "smooth" cockpit shape like that of the Audi or the "bumpy" one as opted by Porsche ?

If the total height is the same, then the "bumpy" (as you call it) would be less draggy as it has smaller cross section.